Necromancy School and Healing - why aren't they together?

[JKTrickster]

From my understanding, Cure Light Wounds and other such spells used to be in Necromancy. Why were they shifted away :smallconfused:

Do you believe that they should be placed back into Necromancy?

Also Negative Energy is normally associated with Necromancy right? If the Cure spells were shifted back into Necromancy, should Necromancy also have access to Positive Energy?

What would the ramifications of such an action be?

[legomaster00156]

Here's an even better question: Why are they in Conjuration? What does the school of teleportation and summoning have to do with healing?
Personally, I believe it's just because they planned for necromancy to be the "evil" school, and so something that heals obviously doesn't belong there (even though it does).

[Psyren]

Yeah, I see no problem with healing being Necromancy. Especially since Conjurers can get healing other ways (summoning something with healing powers, porting to the PEP etc.)

As for why the change was made... WotC.

[Divayth Fyr]

From my understanding, Cure Light Wounds and other such spells used to be in Necromancy. Why were they shifted away :smallconfused:
Because the designers aren't too bright sometimes? See Deathwatch (also a necromancy spell...)


Do you believe that they should be placed back into Necromancy?
Yep.


Also Negative Energy is normally associated with Necromancy right? If the Cure spells were shifted back into Necromancy, should Necromancy also have access to Positive Energy?
It already does ie. via Disrupt Undead.


What would the ramifications of such an action be?
For starters, you'd need to throw away the "necromancy=evil" mentality ;)

[JKTrickster]

Here's an even better question: Why are they in Conjuration? What does the school of teleportation and summoning have to do with healing?
Personally, I believe it's just because they planned for necromancy to be the "evil" school, and so something that heals obviously doesn't belong there (even though it does).

As an aside, I find something really...weird with Conjuration.

Conjuration (Teleportation), Conjuration (Summoning) and Conjuration (Calling) are all about moving something to another place.

But Conjuration (Creation) is about actually creating something from nothing. No movement is involved!

Why is that included? :smallconfused:

EDIT:




It already does ie. via Disrupt Undead.



So it is totally legitimate for Necromancy to have Positive Energy? Interesting....

[legomaster00156]

Going by the literal name "necromancy", it really should be a subschool of divination, involving communication with the deceased. Using the classic black magic term, it should remain a completely evil school. And going by the more realistic interpretation, it involves life and death, and so healing should most definitely be included.

[lunar2]

conjuration (creation) probably ought to be moved to evocation or transmutation.

[JKTrickster]

Going by the literal name "necromancy", it really should be a subschool of divination, involving communication with the deceased. Using the classic black magic term, it should remain a completely evil school. And going by the more realistic interpretation, it involves life and death, and so healing should most definitely be included.

Hmm why do you feel that is the most "realistic"? I'm just wondering why you used the term "realistic" - I do agree with your assessment though.

Now if Necromancy has power over Life AND Death - how would this impact any other possible spells? Could they fill someone with Positive Energy to buff them?

Could they "White Mage" archetype (healer with buff spells) then actually fit under the Necromancer?

I know some people like to homebrew "White Necromancers". Often they use Positive Energy, Deathless instead of Undead, and some ability to mitigate and protect against Negative Energy. Would "White Mage" be a logical extension of the "White Necromancer" archetype?

[legomaster00156]

conjuration (creation) probably ought to be moved to evocation or transmutation.
I've always been of the opinion that Conjuration (creation) belongs in Evocation.


Hmm why do you feel that is the most "realistic"? I'm just wondering why you used the term "realistic" - I do agree with your assessment though.

Now if Necromancy has power over Life AND Death - how would this impact any other possible spells? Could they fill someone with Positive Energy to buff them?

Could they "White Mage" archetype (healer with buff spells) then actually fit under the Necromancer?

I know some people like to homebrew "White Necromancers". Often they use Positive Energy, Deathless instead of Undead, and some ability to mitigate and protect against Negative Energy. Would "White Mage" be a logical extension of the "White Necromancer" archetype?
1. By realistic, I mean that it is more sensible than simply being the realm of dark magic.
2. The White Mage archetype certainly could be fit into the role of a Necromancer, if the school divisions in 3.5 actually made any sense.

[JKTrickster]

Hmm so no one thinks there would be a major problem with the White Mage/White Necromancer being in the Necromancy school?

What new spells do you believe would fit? Obviously the Cure line and Heal. But what buff spells?

I was thinking spells like Bull's Strength could work although they have to be refluffed as positive energy filling the target.

But I'm not sure - is that how positive energy works? Or is it only more health?

Can positive energy also strengthen the body? Here I'm mainly thinking about Deathless - they are obviously stronger and much better preserved and strengthened versions of the Undead. Could Necromancers apply that type of magic to living people as well?

[jindra34]

On the conjuration (creation) deal, if you look at how conjure is defined then teleportation is more out of place than creation. From a classical perspective conjuration is making something out of nothing as opposed to summoning. Some changes mess things up a lot.

[Madara]

So now we cross our fingers and hope that 5th ed will fix the schools. Make them equal enough that you can drop divination!

As for necromancy, its like Enchantment or illusion. I call them the "All or Nothing Schools"
1. Enchantment; either gives you victory, or doesn't affect your enemy(immune to mind effects)
2. Necromancy; Yay, I can do stuff with undead and debuffing. I am slightly useful in certain situations, but half my school can't help me when we're not fighting undead
3. Illusion:(Slightly better); Most of my spells require a combination of creativity and the GM making things happen, some of them imitate other schools so I can be useful in other situations. I am kinda the combo of the above, with some debuff and effects that work on the mind.

So for necromancy, and the others, they should get a boost. In fact, maybe WotC should make more schools. Thematic-wise, the problem is with the book describing Necromancy as power over "life and death". If they had just used death, it would've sounded lame, but been honest.

[Grinner]

I think the entire idea of schools of magic should be thrown out entirely, because it's *magic*. The term "arcane" means "mysterious". Assigning magic a classification removes the element of mystery.

Also interesting to note, magic is derived from the Latin word "magus", which was a term used to describe a Zoroastrian priest, among other things.

But ultimately, it's just game...

[Madara]

I mean break them down into really small categories. Like 15 or something. But at that point I suppose you could skip the schools. Weren't they making things more generic? So you can insert your fluff here?
Which means you could easily be a necromancer with healing.

[Icestorm245]

In my honest opinion, I always believed that cure AND inflict spells should belong in the transmutation school. Technically you are transmuting something in order to heal them (can be described as closing wounds and mending broken cells) or to harm them (described as tearing apart cells to cause wounds).

[bloodtide]

From my understanding, Cure Light Wounds and other such spells used to be in Necromancy. Why were they shifted away :smallconfused:

Do you believe that they should be placed back into Necromancy?

Also Negative Energy is normally associated with Necromancy right? If the Cure spells were shifted back into Necromancy, should Necromancy also have access to Positive Energy?

What would the ramifications of such an action be?

1.At the star of 3E, around 2000 or so, there was still the big backlash of 'evil D&D'. So they wanted D&D to be about heroes and be rated G kid friendly. So necromancy became the evil school. And you can't have healing in the evil school, so they were moved.

2.Yes.

3.Yes. (and again this was true in 2E).

4.The spell schools would make more sense.



In my honest opinion, I always believed that cure AND inflict spells should belong in the transmutation school. Technically you are transmuting something in order to heal them (can be described as closing wounds and mending broken cells) or to harm them (described as tearing apart cells to cause wounds).

'Transmuting' to heal or hurt is a bit odd. In order to do either, you need to 'add' something more. Take the easy example: a creature is cut and loses both blood and skin. If you rearrange the wound it does not exactly heal, and does not bring back lost flesh and blood. That's why necromancy brings something a bit 'extra'.

[JKTrickster]

Honestly I am trying to redesign all of the "schools" right now but indirectly.

Instead of designing each school, I'm designing each class and fixing the spell list around that class. For all intents and purposes each class will only have access to one school. Therefore each school will have spells chosen to balance each class against each other.

Of course one of my guiding principles is that each class must be capable of multiple archetypes. So that really lends a hand for what the final spell list would look like.

As a question, what buff spells should the Necromancer has access to?

[Darth Stabber]

I think the entire idea of schools of magic should be thrown out entirely, because it's *magic*. The term "arcane" means "mysterious". Assigning magic a classification removes the element of mystery.

Magic is not mysterious to the wizard, he understands full well what he is doing. Arcane refers to it being a mystery to the layperson. Assigning classification makes perfect sense because wizards are the scholarly type, and intellectuals love them some classification schemes.

Also while agree with moving heals to necro, there is some logic in conj. Conjuration can call effects from other planes of existence. Well, the positive and negative energy planes are certainly planes of existence.

Now having said that, it would follow that 90% of necromancy spells could be reclassed under conjuration, which given that it is already the most glutted school, I should surmise that this particular move would be a really bad call, making one of the problems of 3.5 magic even bigger. Of all the choices presented, it becomes clear that since conjuration is easily one of the best schools of magic and necromancy is not, that the effect should live in necromancy, and have it be a weird little irony that healers are necromancers.

Now Evocation could also be the receiving school if it is creating rather than summoning the energy, but I will leave that alone, to avoid further complicating this issue.

Moving it to transmutation does make some modicum of sense, until you consider that cure spells hurt undead. A trans heal would simply repair things (not blast them with energy associated with healing), and thus they would likely heal living and undead indiscriminately. Personally I like the undead/living neg/pos thing and this would ruin it's, admittedly shaky, logical foundation.

[Slipperychicken]

But Conjuration (Creation) is about actually creating something from nothing. No movement is involved!


You're summoning it from Vestige Land (border between existence and nonexistence) or from Nonexistence itself, where I like to think Spheres of Annihilation go. Magic can create darkness that remains dark in light. DnD magic never made sense to begin with, nor does it have to, since it's frickin magic in a frickin game. Thinking about it too much, or applying real-world physics/logic, just messily converts catgirls into headaches.

[Dimers]

What new spells do you believe would fit? Obviously the Cure line and Heal. But what buff spells?

In the same way that necromancy fear effects make the soul devoid of hope, so should 'white' spells make the heart sing. Pardon the purple prose, please. I'm talking about morale benefits. Temporary hit points are also quite appropriate, as are effects that bond creatures in a non-physical way, and spells that release, move or manipulate people's spirits. Certain immunities also make sense, such as immunity to fear, death effects, fatigue/exhaustion, negative and positive energy, disease, poison, stunning, et cetera. And spells that deal with sensing spirits are good; you can create a whole new thing similar to Mindsight that lets you sense nearby spirits even if you can't see a darn thing. A very high-end spell for Necro (though not a buff!) would be puppet-style body control.

[ngilop]

in 1st and 2nd editon Necromancy was tge magic school based around life and death. the whole necromanyc = evil was for things like animate dead ( which was a tad diff back then than it is now) energy drain, soul trapping and other such spells, basically all the spells that warped one's sould in the older version of necromancy were evil.

When 3rd ed came about, well the 'big 3' designers felt that Conjuration was a subpar and needed a LOT more abilities. so hey why not make healing conjuration even though inflicts were still left as necromancy..

Basically they wanted to ingore things that made sense.

The vast majority of people I have played with ignore conjuration healing and keep it as necromancy.

[kabreras]

For me

- Evocation is a school that create RAW magic effects, like force spells. They do not exist in reality and a pure magic effects so no, conjuration creation do not go in this school. (but orbs from conjuration do)

- Conjuration is bringing or creating things for you to use them, monsters, items. It is also binding existing forces to your will like shaping stuffs and walls (but force one)

- Necromancy is all about playing with life and death so healing, and inflicting should be in this school, as should debuffs and bufs that directly play with the life force of the beeing targeted (enfeeblement)

- Enchantement is making things more powerfull or less powerfull with magicall effects, stats bufs, control spells and such

- Illusion is playing this sences... like illusions.. well nothing much to say about this school

- Divination is a bit tricky but i would really put teleportation in this school because it already allow you to see stuff from afar so it should be able to open a portal for you to get to it.

- Transmutation is changing things to others things

- Abjuration is all about protection

The problem is that there ae a lot of spells that can fit in more than 1 school so it can be hard to put them in 1 or an other...

[2xMachina]

For me...

Necromancy: Life and Death
Conjuration: Matter
Evocation: Energy
Enchantment: Mind
Illusion: Cause Senses
Divination: Receive Senses
Transmutation: Change
Abjuration: Defense

[Wookie-ranger]

its been said but for me necromancy has the vibe of play with the life forces of things. Life forces because in DnD there are two, positive and negative.
so Healing and all spells that mess with the 'health essence' would fall into this school.


that spells are oddly allocated across the schools is obvious. some would say that they would have made a more logical system using a mix throwing darts or looking at the movements of a pack of rabid beavers, but hey they better then nothing.
to give a more real world example of magic lets look at engineering.
to wire a house you would call an Electrical engineer (i know electrician actually, but what ever).
however, to make the wire you would consult a material science engineer.
to repair an elevator you most likely would also call an Electrical engineer, even though the majority of its components would fall into the Mechanical engineering field.
what i am trying to say is that there are overlaps in any system of classification, or you simply cannot find an existing classification for something (platypus anyone?)

[danzibr]

Personally, I believe it's just because they planned for necromancy to be the "evil" school, and so something that heals obviously doesn't belong there (even though it does).

For starters, you'd need to throw away the "necromancy=evil" mentality ;)
I am totally not a fan of the Necromancy=evil. There was a cheesy Might and Magic game once where you played a necro. Everyone hated him, but he was just interested in the entire circle of life.

I mean, maybe you shouldn't reanimate corpses of humans without their consent or something (maybe), but rezzing (not like, actual resurrection) animals and having them fight more bad guys seems cool. Actually, maybe someone who lived to fight bad guys would want to fight them after life.

[Answerer]

Heh, the Priests of Rathma (Diablo II's Necromancers) were once described as the only mage clan to have never have a member corrupted by demons, requiring a visit from the Viz-Jaq'taar.

I think that changed between Diablo II and Diablo III though. Not that I care; Blizzard's ruined that franchise irreparably with Diablo III anyway, so I don't really care where the canon goes at this point.

[TheGeckoKing]

While I agree with the death part, I don't see much to do with life in Necromancy. From my knowledge of spells, Necromancy is something like 90% death and fear and disease and debuffing, with about 10% of "Other" stuff. Not saying Necromancy=Evil mind, but there's near-enough no life in it, and Cure spells would stick out in the school.

[Answerer]

While I agree with the death part, I don't see much to do with life in Necromancy. From my knowledge of spells, Necromancy is something like 90% death and fear and disease and debuffing, with about 10% of "Other" stuff. Not saying Necromancy=Evil mind, but there's near-enough no life in it, and Cure spells would stick out in the school.
That's because they wanted to take out anything from the school that might make it look like WotC espoused necromancy, Satanism, etc. etc. Hence the school lost everything that wasn't negative and vaguely 'evil'.

[TheGeckoKing]

That's because they wanted to take out anything from the school that might make it look like WotC espoused necromancy, Satanism, etc. etc. Hence the school lost everything that wasn't negative and vaguely 'evil'.

Well on the one hand, it is a shame Necromancy is one-dimensional. On the other hand, this is one of the few times WotC ever managed to be mostly consistent, so I don't think it's that bad a loss of variety.