Dastana Stacking

[dextercorvia]

So, Dastanas are in the A&EG. Basically they are bracers which give "an additional armor bonus that stacks with both the foundation armor and any shield worn."

Would that additional armor bonus stack with an armor bonus granted by Mage Armor, or a similar spell?

Can Dastanas be enchanted, and would their net armor bonus stack with that provided by magic armor?

[Kuulvheysoon]

It's specifically stated that bonuses of the same type don't stack - enchanting dastanas and enchanting armour are both enhancement bonuses.

Therefore, they wouldn't stack: only the greater bonus would apply.

[JoeYounger]

It's specifically stated that bonuses of the same type don't stack - enchanting dastanas and enchanting armour are both enhancement bonuses.

Therefore, they wouldn't stack: only the greater bonus would apply.

The enhancment bonuses on armor and on shields are both enhancrment bonuses, they stack right?

[Hiro Protagonest]

It's specifically stated that bonuses of the same type don't stack - enchanting dastanas and enchanting armour are both enhancement bonuses.

Therefore, they wouldn't stack: only the greater bonus would apply.

That's like saying the enhancement bonuses on a shield and on armor don't stack.

[Tyndmyr]

It's specifically stated that bonuses of the same type don't stack - enchanting dastanas and enchanting armour are both enhancement bonuses.

Therefore, they wouldn't stack: only the greater bonus would apply.

The enhancement bonus is to the item.

The specific language of Dastanas says explicitly that they stack with normal armor. So, there's no problem.

[dextercorvia]

The enhancment bonuses on armor and on shields are both enhancrment bonuses, they stack right?


That's like saying the enhancement bonuses on a shield and on armor don't stack.

What they said. I considered this part to be a no brainer, but wanted to throw it out to the playground, just in case I missed something. I skipped 3.0, so A&EG is practically new to me.

Any insight as to the other?

[Mystify]

Sheild and armor enchantment bonuses specifically stack with the other things.
A "Dastana enchantment bonus", has no such clause. It would be an enchantment bonus to armor, which would stack, but not with enchanted armor.
The item is poorly designed, and it is probably best to not allow it to be enchanted as armor.

[Vendle]

Basically they are bracers which give "an additional armor bonus that stacks with both the foundation armor and any shield worn."


Since Mage Armor isn't actual 'armor', just a spell effect, I don't believe it would count as "foundation armor" for this purpose. That means the bracers and Mage Armor would just be bonuses of the same type (armor), and wouldn't stack.

I would probably houserule it though, if the PC was using these to get reasonable AC, and not astronomical AC.

[tyckspoon]

Sheild and armor enchantment bonuses specifically stack with the other things.
A "Dastana enchantment bonus", has no such clause. It would be an enchantment bonus to armor, which would stack, but not with enchanted armor.
The item is poorly designed, and it is probably best to not allow it to be enchanted as armor.

There's no such thing as an 'armor enhancement bonus' with regards to the stacking rules; it stacks as if it were simply a larger armor/shield bonus. That is, a +5 Leather, for example, does not have a bonus composed of +2 Armor and +5 Enhancement- when you're considering stacking, it's just +7 Armor. So the Dastana combines just fine thanks to its exception allowing it to stack with other armor and shields.

[Tyndmyr]

Sheild and armor enchantment bonuses specifically stack with the other things.

Let's look at how this actually works...


Shield Bonus

A shield bonus improves Armor Class and is granted by a shield or by a spell or magic effect that mimics a shield. Shield bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC except other shield bonuses. A magic shield typically grants an enhancement bonus to the shield's shield bonus, which has the effect of increasing the shield's overall bonus to AC. A shield bonus granted by a spell or magic item typically takes the form of an invisible, tangible field of force that protects the recipient. A shield bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.

See, a magic shield's enhancement bonus just means the shield has a larger AC bonus. There are no separate stacking rules for this enhancement bonus, they merely use the stacking rules of the shield itself.

This is how enhancement bonuses work. As such, there is no issue whatsoever with the stacking of a dastana with normal bonuses, even if both are enchanted.

[Mystify]

There's no such thing as an 'armor enhancement bonus' with regards to the stacking rules; it stacks as if it were simply a larger armor/shield bonus. That is, a +5 Leather, for example, does not have a bonus composed of +2 Armor and +5 Enhancement- when you're considering stacking, it's just +7 Armor. So the Dastana combines just fine thanks to its exception allowing it to stack with other armor and shields.

"Shields

Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses."

"Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses)."

And nothing says you can even enchant a Dastana in the first place.

[dextercorvia]

And nothing says you can even enchant a Dastana in the first place.

The fact that they are armor allows you to enchant them.

[Tyndmyr]

The fact that they are armor allows you to enchant them.

This. No special entry is needed for "leather armor". Merely being categorized as armor makes it eligible for armor enchants.

Now, because this can of worms is not yet sufficiently complicated, I introduce....the chahar-aina. Found in OA, this is another add-on for those in light armor. I don't recall the stacking rules for it being quite as explicit. It fills a similar mechanical role, though.

Gleefully mashing all these together and watching your DM's rage bubble over is left as an exercise for the reader.

[Hirax]

Oddly, despite being described as bracers, dastanas appear on the table in A&EG as shields. I agree you can enchant them, it seems like it should stack, but it also seems dirty. Though because it's apparently a shield, if you're wielding a 2 hander, then there isn't really an issue.

[Marnath]

This. No special entry is needed for "leather armor". Merely being categorized as armor makes it eligible for armor enchants.

Now, because this can of worms is not yet sufficiently complicated, I introduce....the chahar-aina. Found in OA, this is another add-on for those in light armor. I don't recall the stacking rules for it being quite as explicit. It fills a similar mechanical role, though.

Gleefully mashing all these together and watching your DM's rage bubble over is left as an exercise for the reader.

Chahar-aina may be worn over light armor, but is medium itself.

[JadePhoenix]

I know it's clarified somewhere (maybe in the DM 318 OA update), but it does not stack for armor bonus. You can, however, enchant foundation armor, dastana and chahar-aina with different abilities.

[Fax Celestis]

The enhancment bonuses on armor and on shields are both enhancrment bonuses, they stack right?

That is an enhancement bonus to your armor's Armor Class and an enhancement bonus to your shield's Armor Class. They "stack" because they're modifying two separate bonuses that stack themselves.

[Mystify]

That is an enhancement bonus to your armor's Armor Class and an enhancement bonus to your shield's Armor Class. They "stack" because they're modifying two separate bonuses that stack themselves.
Its convenient to think of them as bonuses to the item, but its still a +2 sheild bonus and a +5 enchantment bonus, except the rules specifially state that the sheild's enchantment bonus stacks with the enchantment bonus on your armor.

If you actually look at what The magic armor rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm) say, it never states that it improves the base value of the item. It is providing a seperate bonus which stacks with that item and list how it stacks with other bonuses, which happens to be in the same way as normal shields and armor. Picturing it as an improvement to the base value is convenient, nnd normally works, but breaks down in the weird cases like this.

[Greenish]

Its convenient to think of them as bonuses to the item, but its still a +2 sheild bonus and a +5 enchantment bonus, except the rules specifially state that the sheild's enchantment bonus stacks with the enchantment bonus on your armor.Page 15 of Rules Compendium:
The enhancement bonus stacks as if it was a part of the bonus to which it applies…

[Voyager_I]

By the rules, it works. It shouldn't, but that's not exactly a new story for D&D.

I wouldn't even try talking my DM into it.

[Taelas]

It is an enhancement bonus. There is no such thing as an "enchantment bonus".

This is a pet peeve of mine...

[Fax Celestis]

Its convenient to think of them as bonuses to the item, but its still a +2 sheild bonus and a +5 enchantment bonus, except the rules specifially state that the sheild's enchantment bonus stacks with the enchantment bonus on your armor.

If you actually look at what The magic armor rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm) say, it never states that it improves the base value of the item. It is providing a seperate bonus which stacks with that item and list how it stacks with other bonuses, which happens to be in the same way as normal shields and armor. Picturing it as an improvement to the base value is convenient, nnd normally works, but breaks down in the weird cases like this.

You mean this bit?


Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses).

In other words:


Enhancement bonuses on armor modify the item's base armor or shield bonus and never rise above +5.

It isn't an "enhancement bonus to armor class". If you look at a typical armor breakdown, there is no "enhancement bonus" slot. There's Dexterity bonus, dodge bonus, size bonus, armor bonus, shield bonus...

Similarly, if you had some weirdfangled thingamajob, you could get an enhancement bonus to your size bonus to AC. Basically, what an enhancement bonus does, by definition is enhance another, existing bonus.

[Siosilvar]

It isn't an "enhancement bonus to armor class". If you look at a typical armor breakdown, there is no "enhancement bonus" slot. There's Dexterity bonus, dodge bonus, size bonus, armor bonus, shield bonus...

Similarly, if you had some weirdfangled thingamajob, you could get an enhancement bonus to your size bonus to AC. Basically, what an enhancement bonus does, by definition is enhance another, existing bonus.

To take it a step further (if it's still unclear), when you have an enhancement bonus, it's always to something else. So a +5 heavy shield is a +2 shield bonus with a +5 enhancement bonus to that shield bonus. If you're also wearing +5 full plate, your armor class would look like this:

10 base
+7 shield (+2 base shield +5 enhancement)
+13 armor (+8 base armor +5 enhancement)
=30.

Add a pair of +5 dastana and you get another +6 (+1 base +5 enhancement) that stacks with the above for a total of 36 AC.

[Mystify]

Then why does it have to specify again what they stack with?

[Curmudgeon]

The specific language of Dastanas says explicitly that they stack with normal armor. So, there's no problem.
In a 3.0 game, there are no problems. Armor and shields both grant armor bonuses, which stack with each other. From 3.0 Player's Handbook on page 104:
Armor Bonus: The protective value of the armor. Bonuses from armor and a shield stack. This bonus is an armor bonus, so it does not stack with other effects that increase your armor bonus, such as the mage armor spell or bracers of armor. In 3.0 rules, "shield bonus" is just a term used for the armor bonus component derived from a shield; you'll see an "armor bonus" entry for each shield on Table 7-5: Armor. The 3.0 dastana is a shield item (Arms and Equipment Guide Table 1–8: New Armor, page 15), and 3.0 shields grant armor bonuses which stack with armor bonuses from actual armor. However, it's only a DM who's clueless about this difference between 3.0 and 3.5 armor bonuses who would allow dastanas to retain an armor bonus rather than being adjusted to a shield bonus in a 3.5 game. From page 4 of Dungeon Master's Guide:
This is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game. This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments. It's the DM's job to make these minor adjustments.

[olentu]

Then why does it have to specify again what they stack with?

As I recall in 3.0 there was no such thing as a shield bonus. Shields provided an armor bonus that stacked with the armor bonus from armor. Similarly the dastana provides an armor bonus that they specify stacks with the armor bonus from armor and shields. Of course since the arms and equipment guide has not been updated it will not work properly without the minor adjustments noted to be necessary in the DMG, PHB, and perhaps the MM.

[Siosilvar]

-snip-

I don't have the exact text for Dastana handy, but if they've got a "stacks with armor and shields" text, then it'd keep that even if you switch it to a shield bonus, since it's obviously the intent of the wording that you can benefit from armor, shield, and dastana at the same time.

[dextercorvia]

I don't have the exact text for Dastana handy, but if they've got a "stacks with armor and shields" text, then it'd keep that even if you switch it to a shield bonus, since it's obviously the intent of the wording that you can benefit from armor, shield, and dastana at the same time.

My quote is exact text from Arms and Equipment Guide.

[Curmudgeon]

My quote is exact text from Arms and Equipment Guide.
You've quoted the first part of it. You left out this limitation:
You can wear dastana with padded, leather, or chain shirt armor. It's clear that you can't wear dastana with armor which covers your forearms; see the pictures on page 107 of the 3.0 Player's Handbook. But this complete set of the armors allowed doesn't specify that you can also wear no armor. (If you want a 3.5 rules parallel, the Swordsage AC Bonus class feature only operates while wearing light armor; it doesn't do anything if the Swordsage is unarmored.) So your DM could decide that dastana are designed to integrate with armors which cover the upper arms, and function only when so used.

[TuggyNE]

Chahar-aina may be worn over light armor, but is medium itself.

I have no access to the source; can chahar-aina be made out of mithral or some similar category-dropping material?

[MeeposFire]

I have no access to the source; can chahar-aina be made out of mithral or some similar category-dropping material?

Yes it is made of metal.

[dextercorvia]

Even supposing your DM goes with Curmudgeon's possiblity (that you have to combine Dastanas with one of the listed type of armor, in order to wear them). If you wear Leather Armor, a Dastana, and a buckler, while under the effects of Mage Armor, would you benefit from the Mage Armor and the Dastana?

How would it have worked in 3.0?

[huttj509]

Even supposing your DM goes with Curmudgeon's possiblity (that you have to combine Dastanas with one of the listed type of armor, in order to wear them). If you wear Leather Armor, a Dastana, and a buckler, while under the effects of Mage Armor, would you benefit from the Mage Armor and the Dastana?

How would it have worked in 3.0?

In 3.0, Leather, shield, and Dastana yes, mage armor, no, unless mage armor gave a better AC than the other 3 combined. The Leather, shield, and dastata all gave armor bonuses that explicitly stacked with each other.

In 3.5 it gets more complicated, as 3.5 separated the armor bonus from armor and shields into an AC bonus and a shield bonus. Depending on how you choose to update Dastatas from 3.0 to 3.5, they'd either be a shield bonus (and thus not stack with a shield), or a Dastata bonus (new category, would stack with not only armor and shield, but also mage armor).

In 3.5 armor and shield no longer both provide armor bonuses that specifically stack as an exception to normal stacking rules. They're separate categories of AC bonus.