SWSE: Force Slam vs. AT-ST

[Alejandro]

I might throw an AT-ST at my Saga party. They have access to the Force Slam power, which lets them try to hit the target's Fortitude defense; and if they hit, they do 4d6 damage and knock the target prone.

An AT-ST has a Fort of 20, which even a fairly low level Jedi character can most likely hit, especially if they spend a Force point on the skill check. So, does that mean that an AT-ST is basically no threat to even a lower level Jedi, since they can just knock it over with one attack? I have not seen any way for something on the receiving end of Force Slam to not be knocked prone if hit.

[LemuneSD]

I couldn't find reference in the main Saga core book, but Saga's Force Unleashed has the rules for kinetic force abilities as +5 Fort diff for each size increase. This may help? =D

Edit: also, the AT-ST is considered a Huge vehicle. So it should be at +10 diff for a normal size creature to force slam it and successfully knock it prone. This is taken from the regular Force section, not the Unleashed abilities and effects.

[Alejandro]

Can you give me a page? :)

[LemuneSD]

Sorry, I no longer have the Saga edition books on hand. Our group doesn't use this system anymore, so they're in my friend's storage unit! It should of course be in the kinetic abilities though, to help limit your search to a few pages.

Also, it was used for a variety of different kinetic force abilities involving moving objects/creatures, so check them as well.

Edit: I no longer have any of the OTHER books, but I have the Core book. xD

[Alejandro]

Well, I looked through the regular chapter on the Force in the main book and can't find what you are describing.

[LemuneSD]

Sorry if I was vague. The Force Unleashed book is a supplement to the main book. You'd have to find the book itself.

[Alejandro]

I have all the books. I looked through Unleashed as well, and while there appear to be a few Force powers that specifically allow a size bonus to Fort, there does not appear to be any flat rule applying this across the board. Nor is there anything in the errata.

[Alejandro]

(sorry, double post)

[LemuneSD]

Ah, I see. Sorry then. It has been a long while since I played SW Saga. Good luck in finding what you're looking for then and sorry couldn't be more of a help ^_^

[Alejandro]

I found the answer in the errata. When Force Slamming, targets bigger than Medium get a bonus to their Fort. Huge targets get +10. So you'd need a DC 30 to actually knock the walker down.

[Binks]

As noted size differences apply to make it a DC 30. Of course even if they knock it prone that's not a big deal, as the AT-ST is a ranged attacker and can just use its move action to stand up. Nothing in the rules says an AT-ST dies instantly if knocked prone.

[demigodus]

Force Slam has a range of 6 squares, or 9 meters in other words.

I think a better question would be, why on earth an enemy vehicle with heavy weapons is standing that close to the party, when it considers 50 squares (75 meters) to be point blank range. Don't bring heavy weapons into melee range. They kinda aren't designed to be used that close to enemies. They are designed to kill the jedi while the jedi is busy running at 4x regular speed towards you.

Besides, if a jedi is within 6 squares of the AT-ST, move object is much more fun. The DC is 5 lower (25 instead of 30, unless AT-ST's have massive will), at which point they can just turn the AT-ST around so its guns are pointing away from the party, and make it hover there while the party breaks it.

But generally, yes, if your party has the good force powers, either something has CR=TPK, or it isn't going to be much of a problem, by itself, at that range.

[Binks]

Besides, if a jedi is within 6 squares of the AT-ST, move object is much more fun. The DC is 5 lower (25 instead of 30, unless AT-ST's have massive will), at which point they can just turn the AT-ST around so its guns are pointing away from the party, and make it hover there while the party breaks it.
Except
A. There is no facing in Saga. There's no such thing as 'facing away' by the rules.
B. MO doesn't let you hold the object in place, just move it from location to location. Technically speaking if you move it 5sq back it can walk closer on its turn even if you're concentrating. It doesn't immobilize the target per RAW, in fact if you use the 'can't duplicate another power' ruling then it can't immobilize the target, because that would be replicating Whirlwind (which would be a great power to use on an AT-ST btw)
C. AT-STs have weapons that can fire behind them anyways (grenade launcher sidemount).

[demigodus]

I was thinking of just moving the AT-ST 1 square up into the air. It can't exactly walk while in the air. And you can maintain move object indefinitely.

Didn't know about it having weapons on the back. As for the facing thing, the DMs I had would generally house rule stuff like that acceptable since it made sense.

Forgot about whirlwind, but that still lets the AT-ST attack. If we are going with immobilizing, Force Grip works best. Since you would successfully stop the AT-ST from being able to use standard or move actions. Not sure if there are ways to attack using a swift action.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, the lore kinda fits that as well. Jedi are just that kind of awsome.

[Juhn]

...I am now going to have my Imperial Knight running around Force Gripping vehicles.

If my GM has problems with this I will blame you.

[Mando Knight]

If we are going with immobilizing, Force Grip works best. Since you would successfully stop the AT-ST from being able to use standard or move actions. Not sure if there are ways to attack using a swift action.

Doesn't that need to beat Damage Threshold in order to immobilize? Vehicles generally have a fairly ridiculous threshold...

[The_Snark]

It targets Fortitude defense, actually—but like Force Slam, Force Grip received the following bit of errata:

Targets larger than Medium add a size modifier to Fortitude Defense against this power: Colossal +50, Gargantuan +20, Huge +10, Large +5.

So it's not impossible to Force Grip a vehicle to death, but you'll need a pretty high UtF check to affect anything bigger than a speeder, and the big things like AT-ATs and starships are pretty much impervious.

[LemuneSD]

Exactly. That's why Jedi didn't just run around Force Grip/Slam/Throwing anything and everything. It's not an easy task to completely halt an AT-ST. It technically isn't impossible, but it is very highly improbable.

[Seatbelt]

It targets Fortitude defense, actually—but like Force Slam, Force Grip received the following bit of errata:


So it's not impossible to Force Grip a vehicle to death, but you'll need a pretty high UtF check to affect anything bigger than a speeder, and the big things like AT-ATs and starships are pretty much impervious.

With the obvious exception for Star Destroyers.

[LemuneSD]

With the obvious exception for Star Destroyers.

Force Unleashed reference? It is rare for anyone to mention Unleashed abilities with a serious face ^_^

[Seatbelt]

Force Unleashed reference? It is rare for anyone to mention Unleashed abilities with a serious face ^_^


I havent looked at the Unleashed mechanics too seriously either. The game was silly (fun) so I can only imagine inserting mechanics based on them would be silly too.