heretic of the faith feat

[animewatcha]

2 topics regarding this feat.

First. I am I understanding this right, I can take this feat via cleric of sertuous or whatever the elder evil all domain - any alignment guy is. Be lawful good cleric ( pride domain and undeath ), go into paladin ( of said lawful good alignment ) for a couple of levels ( divine grace ), and go into holy monk variant ( dragon 310 or so ), still be able to advance between monk and paladin, preach worshipping goodie-goodie gods ( versus following serpant man ), and still benefit from all the above benefits??


Second. Selune. Shar. Taking this feat, an LN monk would be able to benefit from abilities, sub levels, etc. from selune monk ( can't remember order ), and dark moon monk ( whats not to love about concealment ) at the same time?

[herrhauptmann]

2 topics regarding this feat.

First. I am I understanding this right, I can take this feat via cleric of sertuous or whatever the elder evil all domain - any alignment guy is. Be lawful good cleric ( pride domain and undeath ), go into paladin ( of said lawful good alignment ) for a couple of levels ( divine grace ), and go into holy monk variant ( dragon 310 or so ), still be able to advance between monk and paladin, preach worshipping goodie-goodie gods ( versus following serpant man ), and still benefit from all the above benefits??


Huh? Should rephrase it a little I think.

If you follow a LG god as a paladin, you can violate your code of conduct. Without having to Atone. Miko could've used that.
As for jumping between paladin and monk? Don't think so, unless you're some variant paladin/monk who is stated to freely multiclass.
But it sounds like you want to violate two different codes of alignment. Which to me, means you might need to take Heretic twice.



Second. Selune. Shar. Taking this feat, an LN monk would be able to benefit from abilities, sub levels, etc. from selune monk ( can't remember order ), and dark moon monk ( whats not to love about concealment ) at the same time?
Definitely rephrase, maybe even list what books these PrC or substitution levels come from.
edited

[FearlessGnome]

1: Grammarize, please.
2: Heretic of the Faith is one of my favourite feats in D&D. It allows you to swap away a domain for any other one you like, even if your deity doesn't have it. Now. Instead of Cleric, take Cloistered Cleric. Get Knowledge as a bonus domain -> Take Heretic feat -> Swap your set in stone bonus domain for any domain you like! Yaay for having 3 good domains! (Not that Knowledge is all that terrible, but choice is choise)

[Venger]

Miko could've used that.
As for jumping between paladin and monk? Don't think so, unless you're some variant paladin/monk who is stated to freely multiclass.
But it sounds like you want to violate two different codes of alignment. Which to me, means you might need to take Heretic twice.

Definitely rephrase, maybe even list what books these PrC or substitution levels come from.
edited


no need for variants, ascetic knight would allow free multiclassing between monk and paladin in addition to letting those levels stack for smite evil and unarmed (miko probably had this, since she attributed her evasion of varsuvius's fireball to levels in monk before becoming a paladin)

heretic of the faith is not necessary for monk since they are not obligated to be tied to any particular deity and have no religious code of conduct. for paladin, while it allows you to ignore the paractices of your god with respect to alignment in that regard, you do still have to adhere to whatever class alignment restrictions you may have:


miko (and your character perhaps) could have used the "strength of conviction" feat that lets you use your smite on anyone you don't like, regardless of their alignment (sacrificing your bonus to attack) it would've let miko wrongly harass people a lot more efficiently, and gameplay-wise it helps when someone's using undetectable alignment or is just in your way if that's how you play your pally


2 topics regarding this feat.

First. I am I understanding this right, I can take this feat via cleric of sertuous or whatever the elder evil all domain - any alignment guy is. Be lawful good cleric ( pride domain and undeath ), go into paladin ( of said lawful good alignment ) for a couple of levels ( divine grace ), and go into holy monk variant ( dragon 310 or so ), still be able to advance between monk and paladin, preach worshipping goodie-goodie gods ( versus following serpant man ), and still benefit from all the above benefits??


Second. Selune. Shar. Taking this feat, an LN monk would be able to benefit from abilities, sub levels, etc. from selune monk ( can't remember order ), and dark moon monk ( whats not to love about concealment ) at the same time?

elder evils explicitly do not grant domains or spells. you cannot violate alignment reqs for your class, only code of conduct, making your heretic of the faith feat only worthwhile if your campaign is exceptionally RP heavy. you're a cleric so you can change one domain for a better one, this is where you can be 2 steps away from your god in aligment (seems like you want to go from LG to LE, which is possible here) however, you are a paladin, so are locked in that alignment (whatever it may be) if you want to be evil, then just use the paladin of tyranny. while heretic of the faith allows you to ignore code of conduct, you still must remain the right alignment for your classes.

I don't know that monk, so can't offer advice on that front. tell me a little about it. what's it do? does it replicate ascetic knight? why do you want it? you're presumably only dipping pally2

I don't understand the second paragraph of your post at all. what are you talking about?

[Calanon]

elder evils explicitly do not grant domains or spells.

I believe the term is "Suck it!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225450) :smallredface: YOU KNOW I LOVE YOU...thanks again for the survival gear help... It really does help

:smallredface::smallredface::smallredface:

Warlock bastard child of Sertrous wishing to defer from his ancestry and becoming an Ur-Priest specifically Siphoning off his power and all his domains (LOL ALL OF THEM) :smallamused:

I love RAW...sometimes :smallredface:

[Wings of Peace]

You've discovered one of the most awesome and often glossed over feats for Clerics published, congrats.


I believe the term is "Suck it!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225450) :smallredface: YOU KNOW I LOVE YOU...thanks again for the survival gear help... It really does help


What part of this thread proves him wrong...? All I see is that Ur-Priest fluff is vaguely written enough that I could say their power comes from a heretical box of mac and cheese if I wanted.

[Calanon]

What part of this thread proves him wrong...? All I see is that Ur-Priest fluff is vaguely written enough that I could say their power comes from a heretical box of mac and cheese if I wanted.


elder evils explicitly do not grant domains or spells.

Sertrous, is an Elder Evil, and is also a Demon Lord that offers ALL the domains and by connection, gives you spells. :smallbiggrin: Therefore, an Elder Evil can provide Domains and Spells.

Meaning we can also worship other Elder Evils (Atropus? Undeath, Destruction, and for the sake of laziness, Death)

The very story of Sertrous, states that Clerics can worship whatever the hell they want be it a heretical box of mac and cheese or the very threads of creation itself :smallsmile: Hell you can even be a Cleric of this forum if you try hard enough :smallconfused: (Wonder what Domains it would provide...)

[Feytalist]

Second. Selune. Shar. Taking this feat, an LN monk would be able to benefit from abilities, sub levels, etc. from selune monk ( can't remember order ), and dark moon monk ( whats not to love about concealment ) at the same time?

You can't have two deities as your patron at once. Especially not in the Forgotten Realms setting, where Selune and Shar can be found.

Heretic of the Faith only allows you to slightly stray from your patron deity's portfolios, hence the chance to change one domain to one that is not usually on offer.

Dark moon monk explicitly requires you to serve Shar, and I'm assuming the Selunite monk does the same. Since you can't serve both at the same time, it shouldn't be possible to take the substitute monk levels of both at the same time. Heretic of the Faith does nothing to change that.

[Thurbane]

I'd never heard of this feat before...it's a great fit for my "Dirty Harry" Hellbred Paladin/Gray Guard concept...

[Venger]

I believe the term is "Suck it!" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225450) :smallredface: YOU KNOW I LOVE YOU...thanks again for the survival gear help... It really does help

:smallredface::smallredface::smallredface:

Warlock bastard child of Sertrous wishing to defer from his ancestry and becoming an Ur-Priest specifically Siphoning off his power and all his domains (LOL ALL OF THEM) :smallamused:

I love RAW...sometimes :smallredface:

whoa! harsh as hell! :smallfrown:

no problem, happy to help
:smallbiggrin:

but yeah, I was talking about elder evils as a whole since EE says this:


Elder evils do not grant spells. on page 10

and since OP seemed to want to be involved with Shar, I wasn't sure which elder evil would be "compatible" with shar.

[Wings of Peace]

Sertrous, is an Elder Evil, and is also a Demon Lord that offers ALL the domains and by connection, gives you spells. :smallbiggrin: Therefore, an Elder Evil can provide Domains and Spells.

Meaning we can also worship other Elder Evils (Atropus? Undeath, Destruction, and for the sake of laziness, Death)

The very story of Sertrous, states that Clerics can worship whatever the hell they want be it a heretical box of mac and cheese or the very threads of creation itself :smallsmile: Hell you can even be a Cleric of this forum if you try hard enough :smallconfused: (Wonder what Domains it would provide...)

A lot of this hinges on the argument that Sertrous is a Demon Lord and so should have the ability to grant spells. The rule in EE is that Elder Evil's "don't" grant spells not that they "can't" so it could still be argued effectively that there is no actual rule clash occurring and that while Sertrous -could- grant spells he doesn't because he's an Elder Evil.

It's true that priests of Sertrous can draw on any domain however EE states:


Clerics of Sertrous can choose their domains freely as if they were clerics devoted to an ideal, although most choose Destruction and Trickery.

I don't see it as a stretch to take this as meaning that Clerics of Sertrous don't actually worship Sertrous, they worship whatever ideals they like and in doing so gain spells and domains but they pay their loyalty to Sertrous.

I'm not saying this is the definitive way to read things, but Sertrous as an EE that grants spells isn't the only way to interpret the rule either.

[Calanon]

Sertrous, is an Elder Evil, and is also a Demon Lord that offers ALL the domains and by connection, gives you spells. :smallbiggrin: Therefore, an Elder Evil can provide Domains and Spells.

Meaning we can also worship other Elder Evils (Atropus? Undeath, Destruction, and for the sake of laziness, Death)

The very story of Sertrous, states that Clerics can worship whatever the hell they want be it a heretical box of mac and cheese or the very threads of creation itself :smallsmile: Hell you can even be a Cleric of this forum if you try hard enough :smallconfused: (Wonder what Domains it would provide...)

A lot of this hinges on the argument that Sertrous is a Demon Lord and so should have the ability to grant spells. The rule in EE is that Elder Evil's "don't" grant spells not that they "can't" so it could still be argued effectively that there is no actual rule clash occurring and that while Sertrous -could- grant spells he doesn't because he's an Elder Evil.

It's true that priests of Sertrous can draw on any domain however EE states:


Clerics of Sertrous can choose their domains freely as if they were clerics devoted to an ideal, although most choose Destruction and Trickery.

I don't see it as a stretch to take this as meaning that Clerics of Sertrous don't actually worship Sertrous, they worship whatever ideals they like and in doing so gain spells and domains but they pay their loyalty to Sertrous.

I'm not saying this is the definitive way to read things, but Sertrous as an EE that grants spells isn't the only way to interpret the rule either.
Took me a while to fix up that quote box...

So a Cleric devoted to Sertrous is also devoted to an ideal rather then a god, so Lawful Good Clerics of Sertrous exist... Nothing makes anymore... So does this mean that a Cleric of Sertrous can be devoted to him as well? Or any Elder Evil for that matter?

[herrhauptmann]

I'd never heard of this feat before...it's a great fit for my "Dirty Harry" Hellbred Paladin/Gray Guard concept...

Power of faerun I believe.
The church section. (obviously)

[Wings of Peace]

Took me a while to fix up that quote box...

So a Cleric devoted to Sertrous is also devoted to an ideal rather then a god, so Lawful Good Clerics of Sertrous exist... Nothing makes anymore... So does this mean that a Cleric of Sertrous can be devoted to him as well? Or any Elder Evil for that matter?

I don't even know anymore. Here's the real question: What -isn't- serving Sertrous for the purpose of bonus feats? I mean, Sertrous got his footing by telling people that they don't need gods, they can worship whatever they want instead. So technically anybody who worships something that isn't a god is serving Sertrous' creed regardless of their alignment. Best servant of Sertrous = Archivist maybe?

[Calanon]

I don't even know anymore. Here's the real question: What -isn't- serving Sertrous for the purpose of bonus feats? I mean, Sertrous got his footing by telling people that they don't need gods, they can worship whatever they want instead. So technically anybody who worships something that isn't a god is serving Sertrous' creed regardless of their alignment. Best servant of Sertrous = Archivist maybe?

As much as I want to disagree with you I'm gonna have to agree... Archivist is THE worshiper of Sertrous... I'm so confused... I'm not even sure I can ever play another Divine caster again knowing that I'm unwittingly serving the goals of a Demon Lord just by praying for my spells everyday...

Anyone have stats for Sertrous? :smallconfused: I remember someone showing me them

[Alleran]

Anyone have stats for Sertrous? :smallconfused: I remember someone showing me them
They're in the Elder Evils book.

[Calanon]

They're in the Elder Evils book.

Thats his Aspect, I remember someone showing me like an over the top Sertrous that was more or less a hydra with 100 or so heads.

It made me happy...

[Alleran]

Thats his Aspect, I remember someone showing me like an over the top Sertrous that was more or less a hydra with 100 or so heads.

It made me happy...
You mean this (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5&start=194) one?

[Calanon]

You mean this (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5&start=194) one?

No, unfortunately :smallfrown:

I can't remember where I found it... It was an old thread