League of Legends XXXI: I'll Start My Own Team! With TF! And Janna!

[EternalMelon]

League of Legends XXXI:
I'll Start My Own Team! With TF! And Janna!


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NA Server
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
0tt3r | 0tt3r
9mm | cwcriner
Adumbration | Benefice
aethernox | aethernox
Alemil | Alemil
Alter | AlterForm
Anonomuss | OpticalSage
ArcanistSupreme | Arcanist Supreme
Arbitrarity | Arbitrarity
Archangel Yuki | Yocham
assassin89 | nineballcirno
Astrella | Sirroelivan
AtwasAwamps | AtwasAwamps
Aurenthal | Estor
Baron Corm | Baron Corm
Baxter | Thefettered
BinaryMage | BinaryMage
Brother Oni | MarineHK4861
Bliss Authority | Companion N00b
Caradryan | Ying Quliang
cdstephens | cdstephens
Chess435 | Chess435
Copacetic | Azbu
Creed | Moarzed
CrnvorousMeece | CarnivorousMeece
Croverus | Croverus
Cute_Riolu | Cute Riolu
Dallas-Dakota | MustacheMan
Dante & Vergil | Raphiezar
Darth Mario | Darth Mario
Daverin | Daverin
Dentrag2 | Callinectes
dgnslyr | GANKERLagann
Dichotomy | Kaellin
Djinn in Tonic | The Djinn
Dogmantra | Dogmantra
douglas | DouglasM
Dragonus45 | Dragonus45
Drager0 | Drager0
Dragor | Supernaturalist
Draken | Draken Frosthand
DrakeRaids | DrakeRaids057
Dralnu | TomerIsHot
dukexx | JacksonHicks
Duos | DapperGuy
Eldariel | Elealar
efdf | efdf
Elagune | Chopstyx
EndlessWrath | Andurin
Errandir | Ramses III
EternalMelon | EternalMelon
faith | Ferrovax101
FantomFang | FantomFang
Faulty | FaultyClockwork
Fawkes | Count Fawkes
FeverFox | Alcopop
Flechair | Master Zealot
Folytopo | Folytopo
Frankelshtein | McFinkelstein
Fredaintdead | Fredthefighter
Gallus | Anechois
Geigan | Geigan
glemis | glemis
Giant Panda | Le Shirrif
Godskook | Bethor Kookalian
Gourtox | Gourtox
Gruffard | Gruffard
Hanuman | HanumanXoO
Hatevah | Hatevah
Incomp | Incomp
InyutheBeatIs | Believe Inyu
Istari | IstariK
Ivellius | Ivellius
Jamin | CapZich
Joran | Jorana
KaizoMK | KaizoMK
Kara Kuro | RaptorKitty
Kciemir | Ghostface Ki11ah
Kettle | Kettle747
king.com | kingcom
Kinslayer | HaunterReqiuem
kmchii | kmchii
Kopaka | CelesHurricane
Kwazey | Kwazey
LegoShrimp | LegoShrimp
litewarior | litewarior
Lix Lorn | ElixiaLorn
Lord Generic | Lord Generic
LordShotGun | LordShotGun
LostEnder | LostEnder
Low-Key | TheFuzziestBear
lvl 1 sharnian | StarryEagle
Lyxie | Lyxie
Maeglin_Dubh | Tycho Velius
Makensha | Jarbis
MammonAzrael | MammonAzrael
Manticoran | Manticoran
MasatoHyuga | MasatoHyuga
Master_Rahl22 | Goltoth
master256 | QWERTYSTOP
Math_Mage | Mathmage
Mattarias, King. | Mattarias
Malmagor Andrigal | Madmal
Maxios | Maxios20
Meatshield#236 | Meatshield236
Merellis | Merellis
Mike_the_Mystic | Kraemer
Milskidasith | Milskidasith
Mindfreak586 | Mindfreak586
Mirrinus | Parallaxal
Miscast_Mage | MiscastMage
Moklok | KokoBWare
mrzomby | mrzomby
Mtg_player_zach | MtgPlayerZach
Mushroom Ninja | Mushroom Ninja
Mutant Bunny | WhollySpart
Nadevoc | Xenik
Nanoblack | IwearSILLYhats
Nargan | Naryuk
Necroticplague | Yamidamian
Neoseanster | Neoseanster
NeoVid | NeoVid
neXianXavia | neXianXavia
NotAEvilToaster | NeonPie
Octopus Jack | Thalric
PersonMan | Nsev
Pie Guy | Qwazes
pilvento | Kandrass
PhoeKun | PhoeKun
Poison Fish | Baron Von Flib
Protecar | Godreig
Protecar | Atk
Psychotic | SquirrelFish
Qaera | Qaera
Raistlin1040 | Sanevale
Rama | Nargus
Raroy | setokaibasmt
RationalGoblin | AtillathePun
Raveypoos | Rhaviewoos
recklessabaddon | recklessabaddon
revolver kobold | A Magic Kobold
Reynard | Duke Reynington
Serpentine | Lady Serpentine
Shades of Gray | PierreAbelard
shadowwalker64 | shadowwalker65
Shadowleaf | Shadowdancing
Shadow Lord | ShadowLordgiantitp
ShortOne | LittlePoppy
SidCoolios | Irazel
Silverraptor | Silverraptor
Sircarp | Sircarp
SirSigfried | LibertarianSDR
Slash_712 | Catfud
sofawall | sofawall
St. Viers | St.Viers
Starfols | Starfols
SuperPanda | Lokilar
SweetRein | Riot Reinboom
TalonDemonKing | TalonDemonKing
TechnOkami | Techn0kami
Temotei | Temotei221
Terazul | Allegretto
term1nally s1ck | silverdevilboy
Thanatos 51-50 | Thanatos Erebus
The_Fiery_Tower | TheFieryTower
TheGlowingRogue | I Glow In Dark
Thethan | Thethan
The Rabbler | Paco H Jones
The Shadowmind | The Shadowmind
The Valiant Turtle | Valiant Turtle
Thrantar | Thrantar
Thrawn183 | Thrawnyboy
throtecutter | throtecutter
toasty | toastymow
Tono | Tono Chou
Treayn | Treayn
tribble | Smallbluedot
Tychris1 | Tychris1
userpay | userpay
Vauron | Vauron
Volatar | The Volatar
wandiya | wandiya
Winterwind | DreamingHeart
Winthur | Seyruun
woodzyowl | Woodzyowl
Zabel_Zarock | Jon Talbain
Zeful | Zeful
ZeltArruin | ZeltArruin
Zemro | Shivic
ZeroNumerous | ZeroNumerous
Zeteni | Zeteni
zolga | TheZolga[/table]

EU Server--West
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Acromos | Crannoch
Adumbration | Adumbration
Anonomuss | Anonomuss
Brother Oni | MarineHK4861
Cheers | Sam vds
Cyborg Mage | Cyborg Mage98
Eldariel | Elealar
Even Human | SlyGuyMcFly
Gauntlet | Isva
HalfDragonCube | giantmudkip
Maxymiuk | Maxymiuk
Mc. Lovin | B1GB1RDB4G3L
Miscast_Mage | MiscastMage
Morph Bark | Morpheus Bob
Nargan | Naryuk
PersonMan | Scarge
Reynard | Duke Reyn
Talesin | Fridgecake
term1nally s1ck | Silverdevilboy
That'd_be_me | AntiLocke
Winterwind | DreamingHeart
Ziren | Zirenoid
zolga | MasterZolga[/table]

EU Server--Nordic & East
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Dada | Scrattlebeard
Posca | LDRC
Rockbird | Rockbird[/table]

EU Server--Unspecified
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Abakus | Terpfen
Alemil | Alemil
Ayra | Ayramatao
Darwin | DarwinBeGood
Endoperez | Endoperez
Heliomance | Sidhe de Grian
Kurrel | GrinningOni
littlebottom | Littlebottom
lord_khaine | Lord_khaine
Narazil | Narazil
Narkis | Narkis
Penthar | Malderon
Raviepoos | Skittles Unicorn
Shadowleaf | AncientPharma
shadowwalker64 | shadowwalker64
Socratov | Mbutu
Voidhawk | Sidhe ne Awk
Volatar | VolatarUK
Zefir | Einerwie
Zombywoof | Zombywoof[/table]

SEA Server
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
abadguy | Smite Thy Enemy[/table]

MUMBLE
Download here! (http://mumble.sourceforge.net/)
Our main means of communication is a mumble server, playing host to a variety of games, including LoL. We're quite a tight knit community, get to know us! Hanging about is a good way to find a game, and if you don't fancy playing something there's always a good chance of a friendly chat. Contact Djinn_in_Tonic via PM if you have a question or want to donate money to keep the server running.
Address: fish.mumbleboxes.com
Port: 36003

Admins: Djinn_in_Tonic (Djinn); Darth Mario; ShortOne (LittlePoppy, Raven); Dogmantra; Nano (Nanoceraptor).

STREAMS
Some of us run streams. You can watch them here.
Silverraptor (http://www.livestream.com/silverrapter?t=527242)
Lyxie (http://www.own3d.tv/lyxie)

GUIDES
Sometimes people write guides and post them in this thread. Other times pro players write guides that people then post in this thread. They often end up here.
General
Guide to General Common Jungler Set-Ups (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12409551&postcount=575), by Mtg_player_zach
Small Guide to Jungle Counterpicking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12379254&postcount=98), by Winthur
General Guide to AD Carries (http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=9234)
Into the Wild - Guide to Being a Better Jungler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10867111#post10867111) by Mtg_player_zach
Seizing the fourth digit: Playing your way out of Elo Hell. (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=341821) by Math_Mage
Faulty and Raistlin's Quick Build Database: Notes and Stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10942497&postcount=1004) by Faulty and Raistlin
Turning Skill Into Elo: Solo Queue Mindset And Methodology (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1220673) by MathMage
How to be a Good Team Leader (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1374492) by Darth Mario

Specific Champions
Riven 101 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12579737&postcount=204), by Arbitrarity
Highly Artistic Blitzcrank guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12380155&postcount=115), by Dogmantra
Laser Bear Udyr (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9657101&postcount=39), by Djinn_In_Tonic
Rammus: Can't touch this (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=258919), by Math_Mage
Twitch (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board
[URL="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10267058&postcount=1448), by Djinn_In_Tonic
Jungle Akali (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10498621&postcount=1358) by Djinn
How to play everyone's favourite Lightning Squirrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10518034&postcount=154) by Dogmantra
Lee Sin (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=636475) by Dralnu
Super Serious Rumble Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11052926&postcount=904) by Dogmantra
Jax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11252389&postcount=652) by Mtg_player_zach
OH SNAP Morgana Can Jungle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11295698&postcount=1238) by Dogmantra
Anivia Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11514141&postcount=845) by Eldariel
Tristana (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11938481&postcount=1029) by MathMage

CLASSY VIDEOS FOR CLASSY PEOPLE*
Watching these videos makes you a classier person. Fact.
Jungle Janna! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC6wm9iaNmM)
How to Win Every Game in League of Legends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrsTE1vpoXM)
Panic at the Nexus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7WlCbaLI3I)
Sunfire Cape Sunday (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgjfX6crjrg)
Season One Trailer with Commentary (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/news/season-one-trailer-commentary)
D-Town (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wHp4VJ47v0)
Insanity Mix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGKN1Adzckk&feature=related)
(Truly, Truly) Outrageous (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC7S05vI-BU&feature=related)
I'm just a noob (Ryze Ryze Ryze again) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpr1T-pgaZY&feature=related)
e.o.n Shen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHs_cGUPQ3M&feature=related)
Vendrim-Ionia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry3E2UQMe3k&hd=1)
Pwn ur FACE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf9VSDt0EN4)
Your -Epic- Dreamhack comes true! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKCs1CyBFLg)
Ezreal Custom Skin Spotlight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn-HoAPlg-c)
I Just Got Ganked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpNVN33fj4Y&feature=channel_video_title)
Keep Feeding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaR0frKc4a0)
Champion Rap Battles -- Brolaf vs. Gentleman Cho'Gath (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-r300BVFI)
Combinasion BOOM! League of Legends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwzsXR4sM_Y)
All in the Cards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9d3342IXSs)
No One Ganks Like Garen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD4uiTQsRJg)
Rammus Taunts Everyone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-8Q4PM4PXM)

COMICS AND PICS
It's like your eyes are getting a massage.
LoL Comic (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=48169) by Elagune
Learn Your Alphabet (http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/6264/g28376.png) by Dogmantra and Pierreabelard (with a mention in Summoner Showcase #36 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy7JWV-HA28&feature=feedu)!)
Chibi Champions (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=763895) by pika7
Gender Swaps (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=606416) by ShowMeYourMoves
Champion Flowchart Guides (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=608154) by Renekton Bot
Patch Day Comic (http://i.imgur.com/kHtwk.jpg) by DaemianFF

TRAVEL BACK IN TIME: PREVIOUS THREADS
Proof we're not all experiencing collective haullucinations.

League of Legends XXX: Must be Summoner Level 18 to View (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231927)
League of Legends XXIX: Are Nerfs Vayne In This Grave Situation? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229460)
League of Legends XXVIII: Ahri-Vederci, Dodge. Hello, Viktory. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12466887)
League of Legends XXVII: Your Sister's Hotter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225730)
League of Legends XXVI: We've officially jumped the shark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223894)
League of Legends XXV: Who is your Summoner, and what does he do? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221849)
League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219436)
League of Legends XXIII: gunbladeface.jpg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217744)
League of Legends XXII: Teamwork OP, Nerf Nao (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215725)
League of Legends XXI: For The Love Of God Amumu, Stop Crying! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213794)
League of Legends XX: Riot's in the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211977)
League of Legends XIX: 15 million players, and nary a Morgana (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210332)
League of Legends: XVIII: ┻━┻ ︵ （╯°□°）╯ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207908)
League of Legends XVII: Gondor Has No Tank, Gondor Needs No Tank (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205488)
League of Legends XVI: Alas, Poor Game Balance, I Knew Him, Morello (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203298)
League of Legends XV: Robots Are Better Than Trees (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201024)
League of Legends XIV: We're So Broken That We're OP! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198948)
League of Legends XIII: Our Skill is Hard to Deny (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196765)
League of Legends XII: It's Worth It Because I Said So In The Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194886)
League of Legends XI: It's Hard to Post Like This in Heels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192695)
League of Legends X: Armored Armadillo Delivers Ambiguous Affirmative (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10646164#post10646164)
League of Legends IX: New Thread Available! Only 6300 IP! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188076)
League of Legends VIII: Gali-Os: They're idolicious! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185516)
League of Legends 7: Truly, Truly Outrageous! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182486)
League of Legends 6: Jannaaaaaaaaaa! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178334)
League of Legends 5: Tall Grass Used Garen! DEMACIAAA! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173805)
League of Legends 4:CAWCAWCAWCAWCAWCAW (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169616)
League of Legends 3: You only need to click once (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164008s)
League of Legends Goes Where It Pleases 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158135)
League Of Legends: We post where we please. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139094)
*Flair and class provided by your local Dogmantra!

[Qwertystop]

Yay for new thread!

[Delusion]

One thing that still worries me about multiple BTs though is that you lose so many stats if you die. If you have 2 of them and die, you lose 80 AD and 20% lifesteal.

[Dogmantra]

You didn't put the previous thread in the Turn Back Time section.


Also people you can totally play about with the OP flavour text once in a while. It's silly that I'm the only person who does that. :smalltongue:

[Arbitrarity]

One thing that still worries me about multiple BTs though is that you lose so many stats if you die. If you have 2 of them and die, you lose 80 AD and 20% lifesteal.

At that point, you have every item built (and you get second BT last; before that you probably have Wriggles or something), and are probably floating gold. (Oh, I forgot to include Elixers; red increases your AD by like 16), so if you die, selling a BT for a LW costs like 150 gold. Additionally, you have Warmogs, Atmas, GA, two bloodthirsters; the only thing that can kill you is getting kited by an AD carry (and maybe Cass), and you can usually run from those.


How do you deal with Poppy?

Freeze the wave and call her mia, push and roam, or be someone who can win sustained trades against her (Tryndamere, Shyvana, maybe Irelia, maybe Riven, Renekton, Rumble, Lee Sin, Udyr). Poppy's two laning weaknesses are "can't farm outside of melee range", "can't push", and "has bad sustain". If you're a strong ganker or jungler, pushing her and going for more early advantage works; she gets farm, but can't do much else, while you can set up ganks or counterjungle. Tryndamere, Shyvana, Lee Sin, Udyr, Renekton, and Riven can do this pretty well.
Freezing the wave is pretty simple in concept, work on setting it up correctly. Done best by champions who have a good zone of control, and obviously, can win trades. Hopefully without repushing the wave. Pretty much anyone can do this, though Shyvana has to watch her Burnout AOE, and Rumble has to be careful with Flamespitter. The plus side of having AOE of course, is that you can tank and thin waves before they hit tower. Teemo is REALLY GOOD at this.
She wins sustained trades against most opponents due to Paragon, is ridiculously hard to kill, and is annoyingly capable as a roamer. However, she has no sustain apart from Philo, so manaless champions with health sustain can eventually force her out of lane, especially if they can get her to pop Paragon or Heroic Charge (Riven and Renekton are quite capable of this, since they can get in and out taking minimal damage). She's also weaker against magic damage, especially sustained magic damage (Singed, Swain, Shyvana, Teemo) since they cut through Paragon and her passive.
Additionally, she has to commit to harass, and some champions are just better at 1v1 combat; you jump on Shyvana who has all her cooldowns up, she chunks half your health and chases you for another quarter with Burnout.

[tyckspoon]

One thing that still worries me about multiple BTs though is that you lose so many stats if you die. If you have 2 of them and die, you lose 80 AD and 20% lifesteal.

Yeah, this is something I would normally think of as a win-more/taking advantage of poor teamcomps or teamplay option, not a core "I always want to do this unless something else is obviously more important" build. If you can reduce your fights to a series of duels or if the enemy lacks sufficient CC/burst to take you down, you just rip your health right out of their faces and everything is 'k. If you find yourself dying several times or suffering coordinated attacks, you'll probably be better off giving up one of the 'thirsters for more tankiness or a more consistent damage item.

[ex cathedra]

How do you deal with Poppy?

Play Kennen, Vlad, Rumble, Olaf, Teemo, or some other highly aggressive laner who doesn't rely on physical damage. Play super aggressive and ask for early help from your jungler. If you get a head in the early levels you should be able to deny her decent midgame and strong lategame that she so desperately wants.

[Dogmantra]

She's also weaker against magic damage, especially sustained magic damage (Singed, Swain, Shyvana, Teemo) since they cut through Paragon and her passive.

Yeah, anyone with ticking damage is mega vs Poppy. Actually most people with ticking damage are mega in general. Because Swaim makes things better by association.


I swear he's like the third best designed character.

[Gallus]

For the chart-
Username here: Gallus
Summoner name: Anechois
Server: NA

So far I've been focusing on Sokara, the only champ I currently own. I can reliably beat beginner bots in solo, but whenever I try intermediate, my teams ends up losing pretty badly.

Any advice on what to do to get to the next level of skill, or people who want to team up against the intermediate bots together as an actual planned-out team?

[Eldariel]

You didn't put the previous thread in the Turn Back Time section.


Also people you can totally play about with the OP flavour text once in a while. It's silly that I'm the only person who does that. :smalltongue:

Also, it's League of Legends XXXI in the subtitle too. You only updated the actual title :smallwink:

[Arbitrarity]

Yeah, this is something I would normally think of as a win-more/taking advantage of poor teamcomps or teamplay option, not a core "I always want to do this unless something else is obviously more important" build. If you can reduce your fights to a series of duels or if the enemy lacks sufficient CC/burst to take you down, you just rip your health right out of their faces and everything is 'k. If you find yourself dying several times or suffering coordinated attacks, you'll probably be better off giving up one of the 'thirsters for more tankiness or a more consistent damage item.

200 armor, 115-140 MR, 4k hp, 500 damage shield every 4-6 seconds, autoattacks for 200-300 damage each second, and lifesteals half of that. Enough burst to kill any AD carry or non tanky caster in about a second. That point in the game is late enough (40-50 minutes, if fed) that you could probably get Thornmail or something instead, but if you can get double BT, it'll work.
Hell, that point in the game, GA is situational; If you lose the revive, might as well pick up something else for defense.

[Nadevoc]

Since I apparently have not been added to the OP:

Username Here: Nadevoc
LOL Username: Xenik
LOL Server: NA

[fred dref]

How do you deal with Poppy?


push and roam

In my experience, overwhelmingly this. She has the same weaknesses as other poor laners, such as Nasus, But she has all of them and none of the redeeming qualities. Compared to, again, Nasus, she has less sustain, less minion pushing and less tower pushing, so harassing her low, pushing to the tower and running off to be annoying elsewhere ties up Poppy (can't leave because low HP, can't leave because minions at tower).

[Thrantar]

I'm on mumble more these days. Mike doesn't work, but I can listen. If I'm there, feel free to hit me up for a game; it's the only reason I log on. Elo approx 900 at the moment. Also, updated information:

Username Here: Thrantar
Server: North America
Main Account: Thrantar
Smurf1: RemembranceGK
Smurf2: GoKrida

The smurfs are being leveled for donation, so if you need access to another account, feel free to pm me and I'll send the password.

[Morph Bark]

Well that was fast.

Also, OP still says XXX. Not that I mind. :P

[EternalMelon]

Yay for new thread!
Yay for my first Thread!

You didn't put the previous thread in the Turn Back Time section.
Pshh, who still does that these days?


Also people you can totally play about with the OP flavour text once in a while. It's silly that I'm the only person who does that. :smalltongue:
By flavor text you mean...?

For the chart-
Username here: Gallus
Summoner name: Anechois
Server: NA

So far I've been focusing on Sokara, the only champ I currently own. I can reliably beat beginner bots in solo, but whenever I try intermediate, my teams ends up losing pretty badly.

Any advice on what to do to get to the next level of skill, or people who want to team up against the intermediate bots together as an actual planned-out team?
Added.

Also, it's League of Legends XXXI in the subtitle too. You only updated the actual title :smallwink:
I knew I forgot something, oh well, Its what I get for rushing.

Since I apparently have not been added to the OP:

Username Here: Nadevoc
LOL Username: Xenik
LOL Server: NA
What do you mean you haven't been added?

I'm on mumble more these days. Mike doesn't work, but I can listen. If I'm there, feel free to hit me up for a game; it's the only reason I log on. Elo approx 900 at the moment. Also, updated information:

Username Here: Thrantar
Main Account: Thrantar
Smurf1: RemembranceGK
Smurf2: GoKrida

The smurfs are being leveled for donation, so if you need access to another account, feel free to pm me and I'll send the password.
Errr... are you on EU, or NA? I assume NA, but I want to make sure.

Well that was fast.

Also, OP still says XXX. Not that I mind. :P
I was rushing to get this done before anyone else did,, cause I wanted a Thread of my very own.

Is Everyone OK with this Thread title? It had the most votes, but we didn't get to vote really.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Fiora has dominated every game I've seen her in today. The only time she doesn't win is when the other team's Fiora is more fed.

[Dogmantra]

By flavor text you mean...?

The little things like "Watching these videos makes you a classier person. Fact."

I have fun rewriting the first post every time I make the new thread and it's a shame that people don't get to experience the LITERAL SECONDS OF ALMOST JOY it brings.

[fred dref]

Fiora has dominated every game I've seen her in today. The only time she doesn't win is when the other team's Fiora is more fed.

And myself, I have yet to see one do well at all.

[Silverraptor]

Pshh, who still does that these days?


Us. Now get rid of that double post.:smalltongue:

[tyckspoon]

Fiora has dominated every game I've seen her in today. The only time she doesn't win is when the other team's Fiora is more fed.


And myself, I have yet to see one do well at all.

So pretty much like every other champ release, then (seriously, I know if I cared I could find these same sentiments for, at a minimum, Ziggs and Volibear.) I'm surprised anybody really tries to determine if a champ is 'overpowered' during release week; information is skewed too much by first timers, people playing the champ who don't jibe with its playstyle, and other noise that prevents getting a serious assessment of a champ.

[Eldariel]

Is Everyone OK with this Thread title? It had the most votes, but we didn't get to vote really.

The thread title is kind of a foregone conclusion given lack of contenders and the overwhelming support from the last vote, not to mention the agreement to save it for the next thread.

[Dogmantra]

So pretty much like every other champ release, then (seriously, I know if I cared I could find these same sentiments for, at a minimum, Ziggs and Volibear.) I'm surprised anybody really tries to determine if a champ is 'overpowered' during release week; information is skewed too much by first timers, people playing the champ who don't jibe with its playstyle, and other noise that prevents getting a serious assessment of a champ.

For what it's worth, looking at them I think her kit is pretty solid for what it is, but the major issue is basically whether her numbers (which are rather absurd on some counts for reals 120% attack speed what) and the untargetability from her ultimate are enough to keep her from being swallowed up by the poor fact that you need horrendously OP mechanics to make squishy melee carries viable.

[fred dref]

For what it's worth, looking at them I think her kit is pretty solid for what it is, but the major issue is basically whether her numbers (which are rather absurd on some counts for reals 120% attack speed what) and the untargetability from her ultimate are enough to keep her from being swallowed up by the poor fact that you need horrendously OP mechanics to make squishy melee carries viable.

When explaining why melee carries don't work, I like to point out that Trynd has a low cooldown dash which goes down when you attack, a CC that also reduces enemy damage, a heal that increases your damage, a passive crit chance bonus and to top it all off, and ult that makes him totally immune to death for a duration, and he's still on the low end of viable in organized play.

[Nadevoc]

What do you mean you haven't been added?

I mean I'm apparently blind and couldn't find myself at first glance. Though now I see that I somehow got my GitP username added for both columns. Hrm... I think I have a smurf using that name... Must go level it.


For what it's worth, looking at them I think her kit is pretty solid for what it is, but the major issue is basically whether her numbers (which are rather absurd on some counts for reals 120% attack speed what) and the untargetability from her ultimate are enough to keep her from being swallowed up by the poor fact that you need horrendously OP mechanics to make squishy melee carries viable.

I sorta expect her to get toned down. Her W passively gives, what, 35 AD? Plus she's got the MASSIVE boost to AS on her E. Though truthfully I don't expect her to be very viable in high Elo games; she'll probably get CC'd and bursted down. But that doesn't change that she'll probably get nerfed anyhow.

[tyckspoon]

I sorta expect her to get toned down. Her W passively gives, what, 35 AD? Plus she's got the MASSIVE boost to AS on her E.

It's only 3 seconds. That's a very short time and easy to delay through with any kind of decent CC. If you don't have CC on hand and you let her rip through your team with the cooldown refresh.. well, the same thing happens with Yi and Kat; being capable of abusing a poor champ selection is not the same thing as needing to be nerfed.

(Also, if you assume she's powerful based on using Riposte and Burst of Speed as often as possible.. she'll also be out of mana most of the time.)

[fred dref]

I suspect she doesn't have the inherent "screw you" mechanics to compete with Yi and Trynd for melee carry (less damage and ignoring slows than Yi, less invulnerable than Trynd) and her ult isn't strong enough to make her an ultbot in the same realm as Katarina, so I think she's relegated to being similar to Riven, a melee damage dealer who has to build fairly tanky despite that. At least she has the inherent damage to get away with building some bulk.

[Lix Lorn]

And myself, I have yet to see one do well at all.
I did /terribly/ for my first few games.

But in the last one.... I did pretty awesome. Okay, so I duo queued with someone a few levels lower, but more importantly, I think I worked out why I suck as carries and early game stuff.
I am /way too aggressive/. So this game, I sat in lane and farmed constantly. And by intending to do this, I ended up 4/1/something by end of laning.

Woo?


(Also, if you assume she's powerful based on using Riposte and Burst of Speed as often as possible.. she'll also be out of mana most of the time.)
You can use them often enough.

[Dienekes]

So apparently Fiora came out with a glitch, or I was ridiculously trolled. Whenever the Fiora on our team would ult she'd just sit there, doing no damage, gaining no life, being completely target-able but unable to move. It was hilarious if it didn't mean it got her killed twice and made her useless besides. Her and the 1/9 ashe meant we lost that game, hard.

[Tesla_pasta]

Soooooooo dumb question....

Bloodthirster- do you gain stacks from only champ kills or minion kills, too?

[Math_Mage]

Bloodthirster stacks from minion kills.


I suspect she doesn't have the inherent "screw you" mechanics to compete with Yi and Trynd for melee carry (less damage and ignoring slows than Yi, less invulnerable than Trynd) and her ult isn't strong enough to make her an ultbot in the same realm as Katarina, so I think she's relegated to being similar to Riven, a melee damage dealer who has to build fairly tanky despite that. At least she has the inherent damage to get away with building some bulk.

As a champion, I'd rather be 'relegated' to Riven tier than to Yi/Tryn tier. :smalltongue:

[Maeglin_Dubh]

We ought to put together some short guides on the role and responsibilities of the different positions in game, with maybe two or three archetypal characters named specifically.


Like...
Ranged carry, melee carry, assassin, burst mage, control mage, tank, brawler, support.

Would make a good starting point for new players, give them an idea of what is expected of them.

[Terribad]

I swear he's like the third best designed character.

Except for his stupid auto attack

[Joran]

Triforce is always a good idea on Yorick. I like sheen because . . . sheen.

This is coming from Dominion Yorick.

I don't like Sheen on Yorick because it's pretty difficult to interleave his abilities to get maximum procs. I end up just jamming all the ghouls at once and waste the procs :(

A ton of Yorick's damage still comes from whacking people with his shovel. I tend to like the Manamune + Frozen Heart and maybe Spirit Visage depending on what lane matchup I get. If I need to close with the enemy, then I get a Frozen Mallet + Phantom Dancer.

[fred dref]

As a champion, I'd rather be 'relegated' to Riven tier than to Yi/Tryn tier. :smalltongue:

I actually agree overwhelmingly, I just meant in terms of full carry>tanky carry>tanky DPS>Tank. I probably could have worded it better, however.


Bloodthirster- do you gain stacks from only champ kills or minion kills, too?

If you needed to get 40 champion kills before it filled up and lost them all on death, well, that'd be one heck of a difficult to use stacking item.

[Nadevoc]

(Also, if you assume she's powerful based on using Riposte and Burst of Speed as often as possible.. she'll also be out of mana most of the time.)

She might not be able to spam them on CD but, from my experience, she can use them quite freely with no issues. I had nothing giving me mana or mana regen, and had zero concerns using them whenever they seemed useful. Though it should probably be noted I was maxing Riposte first and mostly relying on the passive AD boost; I didn't start really using Burst of Speed often until around level 10.

[Neoseanster]

What's everyone's thoughts on summoner spells to take as support? I sometimes find myself getting flak these days for sticking with clairvoyance/flash over grabbing heal or exhaust, but CV just still seems too useful to be without, even if it means your bottom lane's a little weaker early on.

[Mtg_player_zach]

Bloodthirster stacks from minion kills.



As a champion, I'd rather be 'relegated' to Riven tier than to Yi/Tryn tier. :smalltongue:

But yi's the best and I win all my games I play him. YIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

[Math_Mage]

What's everyone's thoughts on summoner spells to take as support? I sometimes find myself getting flak these days for sticking with clairvoyance/flash over grabbing heal or exhaust, but CV just still seems too useful to be without, even if it means your bottom lane's a little weaker early on.

CV for counterjungling/invading
Heal if your AD carry didn't take it
Exhaust if your AD carry took Heal
Flash if you're worried about getting initiated on, or ganked, or you're Alistar/Janna and need initiation positioning
Ignite in a kill lane (not really recommended)

All combinations are good in different situations.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Yi. A ring for each hand followed by any items at all.

It's wondrous.

[Mirrinus]

What's everyone's thoughts on summoner spells to take as support? I sometimes find myself getting flak these days for sticking with clairvoyance/flash over grabbing heal or exhaust, but CV just still seems too useful to be without, even if it means your bottom lane's a little weaker early on.

I grab CV only when playing with premades over some sort of voice chat program. That's because when I take CV, it's not just for me or my lane; it's for the whole team. I can't tell you the number of times top lane tells me to CV their bush, or the jungler asks for a CV on the enemy red buff. With randoms, it's very rare for them to ask me for stuff like that, so CV feels less useful then.

If I'm playing support with randoms (which is rare nowadays, since I usually don't trust them to carry), I'd rather go with heal or exhaust.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Wanting to pick up Katarina again after trying her out in a game today.

What sort of options does she have? 21/9/0 or something tankier? Brutalizer for early cooldown? I know BB scales well with AD, but I understand AD is unpopular on her.

[Nadevoc]

What's everyone's thoughts on summoner spells to take as support? I sometimes find myself getting flak these days for sticking with clairvoyance/flash over grabbing heal or exhaust, but CV just still seems too useful to be without, even if it means your bottom lane's a little weaker early on.

I go CV/Heal. Apparently going without flash is terrible, but I very rarely miss it as support. Really, the AD carry should probably be packing the heal, but solo queue AD carries tend not to. If they take heal, I'd probably swap mine out for exhaust. Or just run a second heal.

[toasty]

This is coming from Dominion Yorick.

I don't like Sheen on Yorick because it's pretty difficult to interleave his abilities to get maximum procs. I end up just jamming all the ghouls at once and waste the procs :(

A ton of Yorick's damage still comes from whacking people with his shovel. I tend to like the Manamune + Frozen Heart and maybe Spirit Visage depending on what lane matchup I get. If I need to close with the enemy, then I get a Frozen Mallet + Phantom Dancer.

Meh, this is true, I admit. However, the fact that you are pretty much assured to be constantly attacking with your spells means you will get a lot of procs anyways.

Manamune is good, however, I feel as if Fratmas might deal similar damage with more CC. I dunno, I haven't played Yorick enough to know which builds are better when, in general Yorick's kit is so strong that you can basically build him anything (except AP) and he will be useful. He's more useful if you build him tanky-dps.

[Arbitrarity]

We ought to put together some short guides on the role and responsibilities of the different positions in game, with maybe two or three archetypal characters named specifically.


Like...
Ranged carry, melee carry, assassin, burst mage, control mage, tank, brawler, support.

Would make a good starting point for new players, give them an idea of what is expected of them.

I was about to recommend the generic guides on the normal guide sites, but they seem to be mediocre. So. WORDS.

Ranged Carry:

Ranged carries are ranged champions that rely on autoattacks to deal damage. They are primarily useful for lategame damage, poking, and tower pushing power. Their lategame scaling comes from critical hits for powerful sustained damage. Characteristics of typical Ranged Carry: Dash/Blink, long ranged autoattack, long ranged poke, attack speed steroid, low base health and defenses.
Typical ranged carries are: Ashe, Caitlyn, Corki, Ezreal, Graves, Kog'maw, Miss Fortune, Sivir, Tristana, Twitch, Vayne
Some champions CAN be built as or act as ranged carries, but are not as often: Kayle, Kennen, Nidalee, Sona, Twisted Fate, Teemo
Urgot is a funny case. He builds differently, scales worse than most ranged carries, but has a ridiculously abusive laning phase, so acts like a ranged carry in some ways. Read a more specific guide for him.

In the current metagame, ranged carries usually go bottom lane with a support champion. The choice of support usually defines how the lane will be played.
Common bottom lane support picks include: Alistar, Blitzcrank, Janna, Leona, Nunu, Sona, Soraka, and Taric.
Some uncommon choices for support include: Fiddlesticks, Gangplank, Karma, Lee Sin, Lux, Maokai, Morgana, Nautilus, Nidalee, Pantheon, Yorick, and Zilean.
Ranged Carries are also being considered in top lane again, since they can harass typical top lane champions in lane very effectively. We won't be covering that specifically in laning advice.

Early Laning:
As a ranged carry, your expected role in lane is simply to farm. Read up on last hitting, and practice.
However, support/carry lanes are becoming much less passive as of late, since heals have been nerfed significantly, and Soraka/Sona are falling out of favor. Know your matchups, and know how to play with your support. Aggressive supports, like Leona, Blitzcrank, and Alistar (and to some extent, Janna, Nunu, and Taric) help you primarily with damaging and killing the enemy laners, so be prepared to help them fight, and capitalize on advantages.
Learn how to control the minion wave. This lets you zone and deny, avoid being zoned and denied, back safely, avoid ganks, and avoid getting giant waves that kill your jungler when he tries to gank.
Learn how to spot enemies placing wards, and where they are placed, so your jungler can gank. Learn how to bait, and how to engage, to maximize your ganks and trades.
Keep track of enemy cooldowns. Calling enemy Flash and Heal being used in chat can be useful, especially with timestamps. Generally be aware of shorter cooldowns, like enemy ults, stuns, and defensive spells like Soraka's Astral Blessing. Engaging and losing half your damage to Astral Blessing is ANNOYING.

Midgame:
As bottom lane, you should have dragon warded, and be present for fights around it. If you lose your tower, you have the option of freezing the wave at your second tower. Freezing is a concept for minion control, where
you last hit and attack minions enough that they don't push into your tower, but also so that your minions are constantly outnumbered. This causes the wave to "freeze" near your tower, preventing the enemy from farming. However, this is limited in usefulness; the enemy laners can gank lanes, put pressure mid, or take dragons while you farm. Nonetheless, it can put you ahead, and is very safe, so it's great if you're behind on farm and just need to catch up.
On the flipside, if you took the enemy tower, you should be warding, roaming, taking buffs, putting pressure mid, taking dragon, and repushing the lane if necessary. You can also continue to deny the enemy laners, if they stay in the lane and you are reasonably near your tower.
An important consideration when winning a lane is if/when to take the enemy tower. If you have a large minion wave, and the enemy laners are dead/back, it may be better to let it crash into the enemy tower, and deny them the wave, than take the tower and give them those creeps. The possibility of the enemy freezing the lane is also a consideration.

Lategame:
You have lots of items, and can shred most members of the enemy team in seconds. Buy elixers in preparation for fights; Green is strongest if you have Infinity Edge, Red is generally solid. Make sure Baron is warded, and be careful going bottom lane. You expect a few important teamfights.
You're also your team's primary tower pusher. Be wary of enemy initiation, but when sieging a tower, you can usually get a few safe shots off.

Teamfights:
Depending on your champion, you may be a major source of poke on your team (Ezreal, Ashe, Urgot, Caitlyn, Sivir, Kog'Maw, Corki). Be wary of enemy initiation if you're doing so, and watch your mana.
STAY IN THE BACK. I forget this every now and then, and promptly die. STAY IN THE BACK. You do NO GOOD if you explode and die instantly. You're the team's primary damage source in lategame, and can usually clean up fights as long as you stay alive.
Kite people coming for you. Even as a fed lategame carry, many bruisers can kill you if they close, because you have a tiny health pool and mediocre defenses (Unless you're Graves with Sona on a team with an Aegis, and have full stacks of Grit with a Guardian Angel or something). Just back up and hit them, use Flash or dashes if they close, slow them if you can, and do your best not to die.
Prioritize enemy threats appropriately, but remember that you need to stay as safe as possible. Usually you want to target:

Ranged Carry/Fed Champion
AP Carry
Support
Bruisers
Tanks

But this is only if you have a true choice of targets, and that's pretty uncommon. Since tanks and bruisers are usually in the front, you can't really hit ranged carries or AP carries without being in range to be killed by the entire enemy team.

Masteries:
Most ranged carries run 21/9/0 or 21/0/9 masteries, depending on mana dependency. In offense, they usually get all damage and armor penetration masteries, and either Havoc or Vampirism. In defense, they get armor, and a bit of health. In Utility, they get mana and mana regen, along with improved recall, and possibly improved buff duration. Corki and Ezreal are two champions who might take utility mastery.

Runes:
Ranged carries currently run Armor Penetration/Flat Armor/Magic Resistance (flat or scaling)/Flat Attack Damage or Flat Attack Damage/Flat Armor/Magic Resistance (flat or scaling)/Flat Attack Damage
While the first generally results in better damage, it's slightly weaker for the first 3 or 4 levels, which can make a difference. Also, since minions have next to no armor, the second page is significantly easier for last hitting.

Summoner Spells:
Flash plus Heal/Exhaust/Cleanse. Hypercarries like Vayne prefer cleanse, because it helps them continue killing things lategame, counters exhaust/ignite, and lets them escape other CC. Heal is good for baiting and turning the tides in combat. Exhaust is generally useful for fighting other AD, though cleanse counters it.
Currently on non-hypercarries, Flash/Heal on carry, flash/exhaust on support is normal. This maximizes the heal on the carry, while the support is usually nearby in skirmishes and can exhaust as needed.

Items:
Most ranged carries will start with either Doran's Blade, Cloth Armor and 5 health potions, or boots and 3 health potions. Doran's Blade is good in either very aggressive lanes, or lanes with a healer. Cloth Armor is for laning in a hard matchup, where you expect to take a lot more damage than your support can heal you for (if they can heal you). Boots and 3 health potions is the usual choice, and is used in lanes where you expect the matchup to be even, or where movespeed advantage is useful.
Typically in early-midgame, Ranged Carries will build 2 Doran's Blades, and Berserker's Greaves. These items add some bulk and damage, for laning fights. More than 3 Dorans are not recommended, though they are useful if you are slightly behind.
(everything after this point does not apply to Urgot)
After this, usually carries either go for BF Sword, or Wriggles Lantern. Lantern is for difficult lanes, where you need the sustainability and armor (and is helpful for wards and taking dragon). BF Sword builds more rapidly into strong lategame items, particularly Bloodthirster and Infinity Edge. However, if one carry has Wriggles, and the other has a BF sword, the Wriggles is stronger in the absence of other items. Ezreal and Corki may build Phage or Sheen in preparation for Trinity Force, though they also are fine building like other carries.
After that, builds become somewhat more nebulous. Usually you see Infinity Edge or Bloodthirster, though Phantom Dancer following Wriggles is becoming more popular. Many champions like getting a Vampiric Scepter with Infinity Edge, because they otherwise have very little health sustain. Ezreal and Corki may build Trinity Force here instead.
Big AD items like Infinity Edge and Bloodthirster are followed with AS and crit, usually in the form of Phantom Dancer. After that, either survivability (Guardian Angel, Quicksilver Sash) or more damage (Last Whisper) are favored.
Getting a couple of wards does not hurt. Supports can't ward everything, and even if they can, they're not everywhere.
Elixers are quite strong. Green Elixers add a lot to your damage once you get Infinity Edge or some other crit source. Red Elixers are good for acting like a mini-heal, for baiting, winning fights, and generally living. Some people advocate carrying around a Red Elixer just for such situations, though I don't do that much. Elixers are important to buy before expected teamfights, like over Baron.

[fred dref]

STAY IN THE BACK. I forget this every now and then, and promptly die. STAY IN THE BACK. You do NO GOOD if you explode and die instantly. You're the team's primary damage source in lategame, and can usually clean up fights as long as you stay alive.

But this is only if you have a true choice of targets, and that's pretty uncommon. Since tanks and bruisers are usually in the front, you can't really hit ranged carries or AP carries without being in range to be killed by the entire enemy team.


I am going to emphasize these points. Focus order comes last in terms of who you should focus, first place is always surviving. If you are alive and the enemy AD is not, you'll almost always be able to win the fight. The damage that you suddenly lose by not have a carry is immense, and often means you can't deal with the bruisers anymore.

[TFT]

CV for counterjungling/invading
Heal if your AD carry didn't take it
Exhaust if your AD carry took Heal
Flash if you're worried about getting initiated on, or ganked, or you're Alistar/Janna and need initiation positioning
Ignite in a kill lane (not really recommended)

All combinations are good in different situations.

This is pretty much what I would say. Though I would say CV is 100% must have in any game ever, as knowledge of who is where is OP for knowing when to fight. I personally never use flash on a support ever, opting instead to either grab heal or exhaust in the situations Math_Mage said. In my opinion most supports (Read, all but aggressive bruiser supports like Leona, Ali, and maybe Nunu. I disagree with Janna needing flash. Ulting to save the carry and push back tanky bruisers usually works better then ulting to split up which flash is usually used for.) should be able to position well enough/be a low enough priority teamfight target that they don't need flash.

I may make the Support guide in the next day or so if I don't get distracted by League...

[TechnOkami]

You know, I am so glad that I spent my IP and purchased Yorick and didn't waste it on Fiora.

I feel like such a Yorick boss right now, and I have a picture that says why, which will be posted later.

[Talesin]

Kog'maw, where have you been all my life.

Love this little guy. Had a pretty bad laning phase, against Teemo and Kat bot and I was laning with a very passive Akali. Everytime we tried harass Teemo would blind me and the Akali I was with was attempting to push the lane at all times so she could "gank mid" despite never actually going.

However after you get the items he is an unstoppable killing machine, who admittidly gets blown up the second you're out of position. Built Double dorans, boots into BT/Zeal into wits end as I needed some MR to stop Kat pincushioning me. Finished off PD and brought IE then Frozen Mallet.

They didn't focus me anywhere near enough, though Kat did ult me in every team fight, and I just got triple kill after triple kill when it came to team fighting. Was reassuring as we were 9 v 18 down in kills at one point with our Akali trying to surrender and their Graves and Nunu calling us noobs. Finished up 12/4/11 having died 4 times in lane.

[EternalMelon]

I mean I'm apparently blind and couldn't find myself at first glance. Though now I see that I somehow got my GitP username added for both columns. Hrm... I think I have a smurf using that name... Must go level it.

Oh no, I went in and added you, but I swear I fixed your name the second time around...

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Can/should Wukong jungle?

[Eldariel]

This is pretty much what I would say. Though I would say CV is 100% must have in any game ever, as knowledge of who is where is OP for knowing when to fight. I personally never use flash on a support ever, opting instead to either grab heal or exhaust in the situations Math_Mage said. In my opinion most supports (Read, all but aggressive bruiser supports like Leona, Ali, and maybe Nunu. I disagree with Janna needing flash. Ulting to save the carry and push back tanky bruisers usually works better then ulting to split up which flash is usually used for.) should be able to position well enough/be a low enough priority teamfight target that they don't need flash.

Ever since the CV nerf, and even before then, it's been kinda situational. Even top teams don't always run it and it's arranged teams we're talking there. Fact is that what you gain in map vision, you lose in botlane. If enemy effectively has an extra summoner over you, your life on the lane will be hard in any sort of reasonably even trades. As such, aggressive lanes rarely should run CV while passive lanes generally can.

And Janna Flash is just one of those things, whether you need the initiation or not; I'd always run it since having the capacity to offensive Janna ult especially in rout fights is just massive. Alistar should always run it tho. Flash > Pulv > Headbutt = near-guaranteed lane kills and his best form of initiation.


Can/should Wukong jungle?

Can? Yes. Should? Not necessarily, he's a very solid toplane. Either is fine. As a jungler he isn't the best but he's still solid.

[Dogmantra]

Except for his stupid auto attack
I sometimes resort to using Decrepify for farm since it's instant damage. Good lord his autoattack is bad. Other than that though, I absolutely love his design. Right up there with Maokai, Blitzcrank and of course the absolute best designed champion in the league, Ezreal.


What's everyone's thoughts on summoner spells to take as support? I sometimes find myself getting flak these days for sticking with clairvoyance/flash over grabbing heal or exhaust, but CV just still seems too useful to be without, even if it means your bottom lane's a little weaker early on.
Personally I think CV is pretty ungood right now and I'd never take it over another spell. That said, I only used to take it a long time ago anyway, when it became really popular I tended to avoid it in favour of a Ghost or Cleanse.


Wanting to pick up Katarina again after trying her out in a game today.

What sort of options does she have? 21/9/0 or something tankier? Brutalizer for early cooldown? I know BB scales well with AD, but I understand AD is unpopular on her.
Brutaliser isn't that good, since her skills deal magic damage. That's why AD is unpopular, none of the multipliers (attack speed, armour pen, lifesteal, crit, IE) work with her skills, whereas all the magic multipliers do (CDR, Hat, magic pen). I'd probably grab a Revolver as my early item, following up with either a Hat or a Rylai's depending on how well the lane's going (skipping the Revolver straight for a Rylai's is good too sometimes). You need a Hat sharpish. BVeil is also something of a must. Depending on who's on your team, either upgrade that Revolver into a Gunblade or a WotA.

As an aside the reason I consider lifesteal a damage multiplier for AD but spellvamp just a bit of utility is because mages are typically burst characters, so getting your burst off with 1 HP left is functionally similar to getting it off with full HP, if you can retreat straight after. It is a bit of a damage multiplier if the fight goes on long enough for you to get your cooldowns back, and for sustained damage characters like Vlad and Karthus and Swaim and a little bit Viktor.


More support summoner spell stuff:
One often overlooked spell is Cleanse, if I've already got a Heal in my lane I will grab Exhaust, Ignite, Ghost or Cleanse in addition to my Flash. Cleanse is good on those characters like Janna, who can just keep someone (including themself) alive for pretty much ever provided they go un-CCed.

[PersonMan]

I'm going to make my first guide:

How to NOT Lane Against Veigar

Let him farm all the time.


By the end of the game, the enemy Jarvan was complaining about Veig being OP. I responded with 'only if you let him farm all the time'.

EDIT: Oh, and this is the 2nd 4v5 I've won. Both times our people left mid game after being bad early and the enemy team surrendered.

[Anonomuss]

I sometimes resort to using Decrepify for farm since it's instant damage. Good lord his autoattack is bad. Other than that though, I absolutely love his design. Right up there with Maokai, Blitzcrank and of course the absolute best designed champion in the league, Ezreal.


I just want to hop on to this thread of thought to say how well designed I think Vlad is as a character. I'm not commenting balance-wise or anything, just generally. The synergy between story and powers is something that only really struck me when I was watching someone play him on stream.

The way tides of blood works, in encouraging you to keep casting as it comes off cooldown, and maintain its level of power, but constantly costing you health, and forcing you to go find something to spellvamp off, or face your healthbar dwindling, is just genius. I think its probably one of the coolest implementation of the idea of vampirism in a game, where you are given the choice between maintaining your strength, and fuelling your addiction, or letting your power dwindle to keep your addiction in check.

I just wanted to say how much I liked it, but I suppose its nothing new to anyone.

[Mephit]

Love this little guy. Had a pretty bad laning phase, against Teemo and Kat bot and I was laning with a very passive Akali. Everytime we tried harass Teemo would blind me and the Akali I was with was attempting to push the lane at all times so she could "gank mid" despite never actually going.

Kog scales really really well, so you don't have to worry too much about harassing. Your laning phase is pretty weak, but if you can keep even cs with the enemy carry you'll usually win mid-to-late game.

[Dogmantra]

I just want to hop on to this thread of thought to say how well designed I think Vlad is as a character. I'm not commenting balance-wise or anything, just generally. The synergy between story and powers is something that only really struck me when I was watching someone play him on stream.

The way tides of blood works, in encouraging you to keep casting as it comes off cooldown, and maintain its level of power, but constantly costing you health, and forcing you to go find something to spellvamp off, or face your healthbar dwindling, is just genius. I think its probably one of the coolest implementation of the idea of vampirism in a game, where you are given the choice between maintaining your strength, and fuelling your addiction, or letting your power dwindle to keep your addiction in check.

I just wanted to say how much I liked it, but I suppose its nothing new to anyone.
Vlad's a weird one, like Irelia, in that his kit is obscenely synergistic, but his individual mechanics are so so awful. His passive is a ridiculously good X to Y to X passive, which is like one better than just X to Y (X to Y passives are silly because a] they're kinda boring and b] they are very nearly always horrendously OP, see also Galio, old Kayle, old Jax). Transfusion is instant damage that heals you, point and click too, so there is zero counterplay to the skill itself (Power Transfer is a much more elegant implemenation I think), Sanguine Pool is... well, Sanguine Pool. Tides of Blood is interesting and probably the best bit of his kit, but it's still difficult to balance his numbers between being viable when you have no stacks without being OP when you have four stacks. Then his ult isn't particularly objectionable.

Actually, I think Viktor is just a much better designed version of Vlad to be honest. Except the part where you have to buy your passive. That's silly.

[Arbitrarity]

We ought to put together some short guides on the role and responsibilities of the different positions in game, with maybe two or three archetypal characters named specifically.


Like...
Ranged carry, melee carry, assassin, burst mage, control mage, tank, brawler, support.

Would make a good starting point for new players, give them an idea of what is expected of them.

Melee Carry

There are very few true melee AD carries in the game. Most melee characters are bruisers, since they have or need defense to avoid instantly dying. Melee carries are characterized by having multiple steroids (Attack damage, Attack Speed, Critical Chance), some sort of gap closer, and some sort of defensive ability. They itemize for lategame critical hits, and clean up fights.
The only four characters I would say can be melee hypercarries are: Fiora, Master Yi, Nocturne, and Tryndamere.
Arguably, Gangplank, Jax and Sion could melee carries. Talon and Pantheon are both assassins, and Riven/Jarvan are more of bruisers. Jax's itemization is a bit unusual though.

When built as melee carries, each of those champions has enormous damage potential, and the ability to get pentakills in cleanup. Yi is the prototypical example, with Highlander giving enormous movespeed and attack speed, and refreshing his cooldowns after kills and assists.

Yes, Warmogs+Atmas and other defensive items are viable and often good on these characters. This is for melee carries. Not bruisers.
Melee carries are very rare at higher level play, because they are very reliant on getting farmed/fed, and are vulnerable to coordinated teams.

Early Game:
Melee carries usually go top lane, or in the jungle.
In lane, melee carries start out somewhat fragile, and don't really have that much sustain compared to typical top lane bruisers. (Exception: Gangplank has really strong early laning, due to his passive and Parrley). Generally, they need to trade carefully, and be aware of enemy cooldowns. Last hit as best as you can, though it's not as easy as it is for ranged carries.
In jungle, melee carries are generally quick at clearing, and have good to great health retention with some lifesteal. Their early ganks are usually pretty poor, since they have little CC, and haven't scaled up in damage yet (Nocturne, Jax, Sion, and Gangplank all have solid early ganks), and they don't really want to encounter stronger enemy junglers (like Udyr, Lee Sin, Skarner, and Shyvana). If you see overextended enemies though, go for it.

Midgame:
In lane or jungle, usually a Wriggles has been acquired. In lane, this means you can push quite hard, which can be advantageous (against Yorick, for example), and roam. This lets you counterjungle, gank, or go help contest dragon. Alternatively, you may be able to deny or kill your opponent.
In jungle, you're of course a major dragon threat. Typically your ganks have also scaled up, and you now deal pretty decent damage. Keep wards on the map, invade jungle with caution (or aggressively, against weaker junglers). Start warding Baron.
You're VERY strong at taking towers after ganks or when the enemy is away from lane. Feel free to do so, since tower advantage is a lot of global gold and map control.

Lategame:
It doesn't really matter if you were laning or jungling. Ward Baron area, split push (since dueling you is suicide, and you take towers insanely fast), and don't get caught. If you die, your team is in a lot of trouble. Red and Green Elixers are strong, of course.

Teamfights:
As a melee carry, you're squishy, high damage, and have usually mediocre CC. Lategame, you're most effective acting like an assassin, showing up after CC and abilities have been used, and snowballing the fight to victory. If you get caught or focused, throw out your defensive abilities and flee, unless you think you can win. In early-midgame, you're a bit harder to focus and kill, because the enemy ranged carry haven't scaled up yet. Know your limits, and going in first is still probably suicide.
DO NOT GET BAITED. DO NOT CHASE TOO FAR. Number one cause of death for melee carries is overconfidence. If enemies are missing on the map, they're coming to help the teammate you think you caught. Towers hurt.

(This advice is given from the mindset of someone who has played Yi. Keep in mind that you can start fights if an enemy is out of position, and you can burst them and escape before the rest of their team arrives. Tryndamere can actually start fights.)

Masteries:
Most melee carries run 21/9/0 masteries, getting all AD and armor penetration masteries, and mostly Vampirism over Havoc. In defense, they either get armor and Veteran's Scars, or work up to Bladed Armor for jungling. If they have smite or cleanse, they get the defensive summoner spell mastery.

Runes:
Melee carries usually run Armor Penetration/Flat Armor/Scaling Magic Resistance/Flat Attack Damage or 8 Attack Speed + 1 Armor Penetration/Flat Armor/Scaling Magic Resistance/Armor Penetration.
The second page is used more for jungling, while the first is useful in laning. Other mixtures of offensive reds and quints will usually function, however. Attack Speed is also an option for faster jungling, but I find MR to be more useful.


Summoner Spells:
Some combinations of Ghost/Flash/Cleanse/Exhaust/Smite is the norm. All melee carries are capable of jungling, by virtue of their steroids, so if they choose to do so, they take smite. Cleanse is amazing for avoiding being locked down by CC while you clean up, Flash and Ghost are useful for chasing and escaping, and Exhaust is good for duels at all parts of the game (but is usually less useful for a melee carry compared with Cleanse)

Itemization:
Usually melee carries start boots+3, Vampiric Scepter, or Cloth+5. Vamp Scepter is only really for jungle. Boots are for lanes where mobility advantage lets you avoid dying (i.e. against Udyr), cloth+5 is for jungling with early invading or ganks, or really hard lanes (Riven, Renekton)
(Advice after this point may not apply to Jax)
Wriggles is a must on almost all melee carries midgame. It provides a bit of survivability, a lot of sustainability, and some damage.
On some melee carries, Phage is useful for chasing down enemies. Often they have enough movespeed and/or CC to forego it, however.
Mercury Treads are almost always the best idea. Berserker's Greaves are also usable, if the enemy has very few stuns/slows.
Transitioning into lategame, the big 3 damage items are Phantom Dancer, Youmuu's Ghostblade (remember the active!), and Infinity Edge. You should get at least one of those in midgame, depending on which champion you are playing (I.e. Sion prefers Phantom Dancers because he has a giant AD steroid already), and probably another by lategame. Last Whisper is also viable if the enemy has stacked armor, but only after you get other damage items.
Defensively, Guardian Angel and Quicksilver Sash are your best options. Some champions don't need these (Tryndamere), but they can keep you alive long enough to clean up fights.

[TechnOkami]

You know, I am so glad that I spent my IP and purchased Yorick and didn't waste it on Fiora.

I feel like such a Yorick boss right now, and I have a picture that says why, which will be posted later.

Here we are.
http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i408/TechnOkami/PFFFFFYORICK.pngI feel like such a boss.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Is there ever a point to go 9/0/21 with a fighter or brawler? Or even a carry? (I'm referring to AD here.) Just thinking of whether or not Awareness is still good/necessary for junglers, or if getting to 6 first would help a toplaner.

Also, Arbitrarity, thanks for grabbing the idea and running with it. These are great so far.

[Dogmantra]

Also, Arbitrarity, thanks for grabbing the idea and running with it. These are great so far.
I agree, but one minor nitpick:
Could I suggest using orange instead of yellow for the seals?
it's much more readable and still obviously seals

[Arbitrarity]

Is there ever a point to go 9/0/21 with a fighter or brawler? Or even a carry? (I'm referring to AD here.) Just thinking of whether or not Awareness is still good/necessary for junglers, or if getting to 6 first would help a toplaner.

Also, Arbitrarity, thanks for grabbing the idea and running with it. These are great so far.

No longer. Once, offense tree wasn't that good, at least for casters (past the first 9 points), and higher level utility masteries were good (movespeed, flash mastery). But now... well, Awareness isn't worth it, especially since the jungle change. The equivalent is getting XP quints, compared with AD or something. All you get out of utility tree past 9 is XP (miniscule), gold (modest), CDR (not that useful in lane), and summoner spell cooldowns (can be good, but often doesn't make the difference). Compared with scaling AD, Arpen, lifesteal, and Executioner, utility doesn't really help AD carries in lane, or bruisers. It's totally useless for junglers. Extra XP might make a small difference top lane for getting to 6, but the difference is literally 2 melee minions. That's MINISCULE.

[Eldariel]

Currently Utility is largely a consideration for Supports, and most prefer to go full Defense for tankiness.

The biggest difference is that now Defense has both, Move Speed and CDR Masteries which you could previously only get from Utility so the high level Utility doesn't offer much that high level Defense doesn't, and while Utility Capstone is alright, the whole tree just doesn't measure up.

[toasty]

Currently Utility is largely a consideration for Supports, and most prefer to go full Defense for tankiness.

The biggest difference is that now Defense has both, Move Speed and CDR Masteries which you could previously only get from Utility so the high level Utility doesn't offer much that high level Defense doesn't, and while Utility Capstone is alright, the whole tree just doesn't measure up.

I really like Utility for two reasons:
Greed Mastery and Buff Mastery.

that's about it, honestly. I'd rather get more tankiness on my supports.

[Math_Mage]

I really like Utility for two reasons:
Greed Mastery and Buff Mastery.

that's about it, honestly. I'd rather get more tankiness on my supports.

As a support, starting with +30 gold lets me buy Faerie Charm, two sight wards, a vision ward, and a pot. The pot is valuable as it lets me skill QW as Alistar or EW as Taric in offensive lanes; as a defensive support it lets me take harass in an engage while healing my carry early on, before the heals become strong. The combination of wards lets me consistently gain vision control in lane and/or eliminate the enemy's protection against jungle ganks.

However, I did finally transition from a 9/0/21 build on Kennen to 9/21/0. Defense offers many of the useful bits of Support along with lane tankiness.

[Neoseanster]

I've taken to using the +40 gold from two points in Wealth to start a Faerie Charm, healing potion, and four sight wards. It's nice to be able to actually afford to spare one to help secure mid from an early gank and catch counterjunglers in the act without crippling yourself too harshly at bottom.

[Arbitrarity]

Continuing on
Bruisers:

Probably the most heavily populated category of champion, Bruisers (also know as Tanky DPS, Fighters, off-tanks, and Brawlers) are melee champions who mix damage with significant durability. Bruisers typically have significant damage steroids that do not improve significantly with crit (such as on hit effects), strong base stats, inherent sustainability or defensive abilities, and some CC. Bruisers have a wide variety of builds, depending on the champion in question, and typically either act like bulky assassins, charging after the enemy carry, or as the beefy "front line" of a team.
Compared with tanks, bruisers have more mobility, less CC, and better reward for building offensive items.
The usual bruisers are: Dr Mundo, Garen, Gangplank, Irelia, Jax, Jarvan IV, Lee Sin, Nasus, Nocturne, Olaf, Nocturne, Renekton, Riven, Shyvana, Skarner, Trundle, Volibear, Udyr, Warwick, Wukong, Xin Zhao, and Yorick.
Some other champions that can act as bruisers, but are also (either moreso, or additionally) effective at other roles include: Alistar, Blitzcrank, Fiora, Gragas, Malphite, Master Yi, Nidalee, Poppy, Shaco, Sion, Shen, and Tryndamere.
Specifically for Fiora, Master Yi, Nidalee, and Shen, bruiser builds may be better than their expected roles in some cases.

Bruisers typically go top lane, or jungle. Their natural sustain, tankiness, and powerful damage abilities are very good for killing jungle monsters safely, and their CC makes for strong ganks. The strongest junglers in the game are all bruisers.

Early Game:
While this varies heavily depending on the bruiser in question, general top laning advice applies. Know the matchup, control the wave, deny your opponent when possible, keep track of their cooldowns, be wary of the enemy jungler, and call for ganks if necessary. Know how to engage, how to disengage, and when to do so. These things are all champion and matchup dependent. Sometimes you should be aggressive, sometimes you cannot.
In jungle, you're typically quite powerful (fast clear speed, great health retention, strong CC). Consider aggressive routes that allow you to gank early, or invade the enemy jungle.

Midgame:
Dragon control is crucial here. As a jungler, ensure it's warded, and find opportunities to go for it. Oracles is a solid pickup on survivable junglers, like Udyr, Shyvana, Trundle, and Lee Sin. You can clear wards all over the map to set up your own ganks, swipe dragons, and it's REALLY HARD to bring you down.
From top lane, either continue to farm and control the lane, and/or go down to help with Dragon. This requires some team coordination and/or Teleport. Before going down, be sure to push the lane to make retaliatory tower taking harder. If you choose to stay and farm while your opponent leaves, again, you want to push so you can take the enemy tower. If you both stay and farm... well, zone and control the lane if possible. Freezing the lane if you have lose your tower is less viable than it is for AD carries; other top lane bruisers are often large map threats, and gank/counterjungle very well (i.e. Akali, Shyvana, Jarvan). By farming and pushing, you farm up and apply pressure to the lane, which helps protect your team from the enemy roaming presence.

Lategame:
Baron control, ward up. You may be a good oracles carrier. If your team has a tank, you can leave the soaking and initiating more to them, but you can certainly adopt that role situationally, or in the absence of a proper tank. You rarely do any good in poking, and don't take unnecessary damage, but you be forward enough to zone enemies from initiating on your carry.

Teamfights:
Most bruisers act like a mixture of a tank and assassin. They form the "front line" of engagements, and often try to directly kill important targets, or damage and CC as many enemies as they can. It really varies a lot, depending on the champion. Champions like Olaf, Irelia, Jarvan, Riven, and Xin Zhao prefer to act like assassins, chasing down enemy squishies and killing them quickly, while Udyr, Trundle, Shyvana, and Nasus tend to stand on the frontlines, peeling enemies off their carry, and focusing targets of opportunity. Mostly it has to do with what sort of skills each champion has, though all bruisers can do either with some proficiency. You're a big scary threat, you do enough damage to kill a carry, while being tanky enough to live. Let your tank initiate. Know how much damage you can take. CC and kill major threats. Protect your carry.

Masteries:
Many bruisers run 21/9/0 masteries, getting all AD and armor penetration masteries, and Vampirism or Havoc. In defense, they either get armor and Veteran's Scars, or work up to Bladed Armor for jungling. If they have smite, they get the defensive summoner spell mastery. This is optimal for jungle speed and bruisers that scale well with AD (Riven, Renekton, Nocturne, Lee Sin, Gangplank)
Many other bruisers run 9/21/0, getting defenses of choice (but not Evasion, because it is TERRIBLE), and usually armor pen in offense. This is more for tanky bruisers, who usually don't jungle (Possibly Nasus, Udyr, Renekton)
Finally, some bruisers run 0/21/9, getting movement speed or mana in utility. This is for either bruisers who rely heavily on movement speed, or for mana hungry champions (possibly Nasus, Udyr, Irelia, Jarvan)

The choice between these three is partially champion dependent, and partially playstyle dependent. For example, Irelia and Jarvan IV can succeed with any of these mastery builds, depending on what their expected role on the team is, and their personal preferences.

Runes:
Bruisers usually run Armor Penetration/Flat Armor/Magic Resistance (flat or scaling)/Flat Attack Damage
Yes, this is the same page as like every AD champion I have mentioned. It works.
For jungling, substituting 8 Attack Speed and Armor Pen or 3 Attack Damage is helpful, depending on the champion. Some bruisers may benefit from Tons of Armor Pen, due to having armor reduction or strong physical damage spells. Runes can also be matchup dependent, if you are in Draft and know who is going top. Sometimes you're against Garen, and just need more armor


Summoner Spells:
Flash or Ghost and Smite/Teleport/Ignite/Exhaust are the norm. Some Heal is showing up as well. Smite is for jungling, Teleport is for lane dominance, Dragon presence and lategame utility, Ignite is for burst, and Exhaust is for duels and shutting down the enemy carry. Ghost is useful for sustained chases, especially if you already have some sort of dash/blink that goes through walls (Renekton, Jarvan, to some extent Lee Sin, Shyvana, and Jax), but Flash is always a competitive option. Some junglers are taking Exhaust with Smite, for counterjungling and ganking; Lee Sin and Shyvana mostly.

Itemization:
Most bruisers start with boots+3 potions, Cloth+5 potions, and occasionally Doran's Blade, Longsword, or Vampiric Scepter. Boots are good for top lane mobility, and for early ganks as a jungler. Cloth+5 is safe, and good for invading/ganking, as well as fighting more dominant laners top. Doran's Blade is viable for some junglers, and results in quick clears and very damaging ganks. Longsword is pretty much Warwick exclusive, since he wants to clear as fast as possible, and get Madreds, while he already has lots of sustain. Vampiric Scepter is useful for passive jungling and getting Wriggles quickly, on champions like Nocturne and Gangplank.
Bruisers love gold efficient items that mix survivability and damage. The most popular are Wit's End, Atma's Impaler, and Phage (and it's derivatives). Wriggles is also common for lane sustain and quick jungling, and can shore up weaker laners.
Wit's End and Phage are important parts of many bruiser midgames, and the choice between Frozen Mallet and Trinity Force depends on whether you need the stickiness, and whether your champion benefits from Sheen a lot.
Brutalizer is also a strong midgame item for AD reliant bruisers, like Garen, Riven, Renekton, Wukong, and Xin Zhao.
Warmogs (or Frozen Mallet) and Atma's Impaler are a common combination on bruisers that like additional AD, and have free defensive stats. They often come in late in the game, however. Garen, Olaf, Jarvan, Lee Sin, Nocturne, Nidalee, Renekton, Shyvana Volibear, and Yorick all like this, eventually.
Some mana-reliant bruisers (Nasus, Yorick) like to get Frozen Heart, which comes with a nice aura, lots of armor (and thus, lane dominance) along with the mana and CDR.
Almost all bruisers get Mercury Treads by default. Unless the enemy team has very few stuns/slows, no other boots really fit nicely. Cooldown reliant bruisers can get Lucidity boots, and fighting an autoattacker in lane may justify Ninja Tabi.
Some bruisers are just weird. Jax usually gets Gunblade and other hybrid items, with assorted defenses. Riven likes Bloodthirster and Guardian Angel.

Generally remember to play to your champion's strengths, and to counteract the dangerous members of the enemy team. If this seems unclear, check a champion specific guide.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Continuing on
Bruisers:

Probably the most heavily populated category of champion, Bruisers (also know as Tanky DPS, Fighters, off-tanks, and Brawlers) are melee champions who mix damage with significant durability. Bruisers typically have significant damage steroids that do not improve significantly with crit (such as on hit effects), strong base stats, inherent sustainability or defensive abilities, and some CC. Bruisers have a wide variety of builds, depending on the champion in question, and typically either act like bulky assassins, charging after the enemy carry, or as the beefy "front line" of a team.
Compared with tanks, bruisers have more mobility, less CC, and better reward for building offensive items.
The usual bruisers are: Dr Mundo, Garen, Gangplank, Irelia, Jax, Jarvan IV, Lee Sin, Nasus, Nocturne, Olaf, Renekton, Riven, Shyvana, Skarner, Trundle, Volibear, Warwick, Wukong, Xin Zhao, and Yorick.
Some other champions that can act as bruisers, but are also (either moreso, or additionally) effective at other roles include: Alistar, Blitzcrank, Fiora, Gragas, Malphite, Master Yi, Nidalee, Poppy, Shaco, Shen, and Tryndamere.
Specifically for Fiora, Master Yi, Nidalee, and Shen, bruiser builds may be better than their expected roles in some cases.

Severe lack of Udyr here, Arb. Severe lack of Udyr.

Also, I'd consider adding Sion and Nocturne to the list of at least potential bruisers.

[Dogmantra]

As a support, starting with +30 gold lets me buy Faerie Charm, two sight wards, a vision ward, and a pot. The pot is valuable as it lets me skill QW as Alistar or EW as Taric in offensive lanes; as a defensive support it lets me take harass in an engage while healing my carry early on, before the heals become strong. The combination of wards lets me consistently gain vision control in lane and/or eliminate the enemy's protection against jungle ganks.
I am sad because I love the utility tree and I love some of the masteries but it's just so underwhelming compared to offense now :(


However, I did finally transition from a 9/0/21 build on Kennen to 9/21/0. Defense offers many of the useful bits of Support along with lane tankiness.
Why not 21/0/9?

[Arbitrarity]

Severe lack of Udyr here, Arb. Severe lack of Udyr.

Also, I'd consider adding Sion and Nocturne to the list of at least potential bruisers.

I have no idea what you are talking about >.> <.<
I suspect I removed Nocturne from the prototypical bruisers and forgot to readd him. Considering how he's usually played, I feel comfortable dropping him under bruisers, even if his kit screams melee carry/assassin.

[Joran]

Meh, this is true, I admit. However, the fact that you are pretty much assured to be constantly attacking with your spells means you will get a lot of procs anyways.

Manamune is good, however, I feel as if Fratmas might deal similar damage with more CC. I dunno, I haven't played Yorick enough to know which builds are better when, in general Yorick's kit is so strong that you can basically build him anything (except AP) and he will be useful. He's more useful if you build him tanky-dps.

Yorick's base stats:

At level 18: 1951 hp, 865 mana.

With Manamune, fully charged: 2215 mana, 44 bonus AD + 20 AD = 64 bonus
Manamune + Frozen Heart: 2715 mana = 74 bonus AD

I don't normally build any more mana items on Yorick.

With Atma's: 39 damage
With Atma's + Frozen Mallet: 2651 HP = 53 AD + 20 AD from Frozen Mallet: 73 AD

So, it's basically about even damage wise.

I build my Yorick fairly tanky actually, with 9/21 masteries, and start with a Philospher's Blade and I have hp/scaling seals, so the analysis is going to be swayed more toward

Assuming I have Philospher's Blade, Frozen Mallet, and Manamune, Yorick's hp is at 3226 and the bonus AD is 104 (counting the 20 AD from Frozen Mallet and Manamune).

P.S. This analysis doesn't build in the fact that Yorick loves to spam his ghouls. I normally buy Manamune as a way to be able to spam and poke as much as I like without really worrying about mana.

What this analysis shows to me is that if I'm up against a mostly physical damage type person, I should build Frozen Heart, then Fratma's Mallet, skipping Manamune. I think I'd still buy Manamune against someone I'm not building Frozen Heart against, like a mage.

[fred dref]

I just popped in here to say that atmallet is so much better than fratma's.

[Math_Mage]

Phage --> Atma's --> Mallet IMO. Phatmallet?


I am sad because I love the utility tree and I love some of the masteries but it's just so underwhelming compared to offense now :(


Why not 21/0/9?

Who knows. I guess I hate having damage, because I don't do as well when I have that setup.

[dgnslyr]

Does Fratmas necessarily imply the Mallet has to comes first? Because somehow I'd imagine Phage then Atma's then Mallet would be a better rounded sequence.

[Chumbaniya]

I'm not sure it makes sense to do a bruisers guide that covers both top lane and jungling. The two roles are pretty different - more different than the differences between bruisers and alternative types of top laners, for example.

I think if you're looking to do really general guides, a guide on concepts that are independent of role would be really good. If players understand concepts like pushing or freezing lanes, ganking, objective control, warding, diving towers etc. then that goes a long way to helping them to understand the individual roles.

[Lix Lorn]

Here we are.
http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i408/TechnOkami/PFFFFFYORICK.pngI feel like such a boss.
I am SO curious as to what the annoying comment was.
SO curious.

[Dogmantra]

Does Fratmas necessarily imply the Mallet has to comes first? Because somehow I'd imagine Phage then Atma's then Mallet would be a better rounded sequence.
Five Doran's for enough health, then Atma's, then sell them for Mallets.

Boots are for neebs.


Who knows. I guess I hate having damage, because I don't do as well when I have that setup.

Fair enough. I just find it curious that people pretty much all praised the mastery rework for adding reasons to put more than 9 points into offense for casters then promptly discuss whether it's better to run 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 on half the mages :smallwink:

[dgnslyr]

Also, that Fiora, building full tank. I'd have expected something more glass cannony, because if they're killing you hard, the only response is to kill them before they kill you.

[fred dref]

I actually just prefer the term Atmallet to Fratma's. When buying I prefer Phage>Atma's>Mallet, like any sensible person.

[Math_Mage]

Fair enough. I just find it curious that people pretty much all praised the mastery rework for adding reasons to put more than 9 points into offense for casters then promptly discuss whether it's better to run 9/21/0 or 9/0/21 on half the mages :smallwink:

Well, to be fair, the discussion was about fighters and bruisers. I just brought Kennen in randomly. The other caster I run 21 util on is Ryze, because lots of the caster offensives are AP and Ryze likes pretty much everything in Utility.

[Eldariel]

Well, to be fair, the discussion was about fighters and bruisers. I just brought Kennen in randomly. The other caster I run 21 util on is Ryze, because lots of the caster offensives are AP and Ryze likes pretty much everything in Utility.

I run 21 Defense on both, Vlad and Ryze. Seems to give them about everything they want far better than the two other trees combined (0/21/9 on Ryze, 9/21/0 on Vlad).

[Mephit]

I'm considering buying Olaf because I feel like his latest buff has really made him a competitive jungler.

[Arbitrarity]

I'm not sure it makes sense to do a bruisers guide that covers both top lane and jungling. The two roles are pretty different - more different than the differences between bruisers and alternative types of top laners, for example.

I think if you're looking to do really general guides, a guide on concepts that are independent of role would be really good. If players understand concepts like pushing or freezing lanes, ganking, objective control, warding, diving towers etc. then that goes a long way to helping them to understand the individual roles.

This takes time. Generic Bruiser is there for the teamfighting, but it's admittedly too general in most respects.

Lane Control

Top, mid, or bottom lane, it's important to control the minion wave. Push too much, and you find yourself overextended at the enemy tower, or zoned out of experience range. Don't push at all, and you find yourself frantically competing with your tower for last hits.
Here we will describe a variety of different ways to interact with the minion wave, when each is useful, and why.

Freezing

Freezing the wave is accomplished by keeping a few more enemy minions alive than friendly minions, each time a minion wave arrives, and keeping the enemy minions away from your tower. Freezing, as the name implies, stops the wave where it is; it will not push towards your tower, or away. Since you are the only one hitting the minions, it is important that you keep more enemy minions alive than friendly ones, so that they push ever so slightly, which you counteract with damage from last hits.
Freezing is a great method for denying experience and gold to your opponent. (in top and bottom lanes) Freezing the wave at your first tower forces your opponent to extend a lot to get last hits, which makes them vulnerable to ganks (this is less true in middle lane). Additionally, if you have a strong laning presence, you can zone your opponent completely away from your minions and their delicious experience.
Freezing at your second tower is even more effective, since your opponent will be ridiculously overextended, and the implicit threat of your jungler will zone him further.

However, freezing comes at a price. You have no vision or control over the rest of the lane as long as you freeze, which leaves your opponent free to roam and gank, or get his jungler in for a bush gank. Be aware of opponents with strong map presence if you plan to freeze, and warn your other laners.

Pushing
Pushing is simply hitting minions as often as possible, with as much damage as you can, while still getting last hits. Many champions have AOE skills that are useful for pushing.
Pushing is the opposite of freezing. Rather than stopping the wave, you're sending it straight to the enemy tower. Pushing serves a few major purposes.

Denying Gold
Some laners do not have the ability to tank minions for extended periods, or clear them quickly. Against these opponents, pushing forces them to last hit under tower, which can be quite difficult (depending on the skill of your opponent, and their selected champion). Champions like Kassadin, LeBlanc, Katarina, Warwick, and Yorick are vulnerable to pushing, and have some difficult last hitting under tower (especially if you harass them)

Removing enemy lane presence
When you push the wave to the enemy tower, your opponent is stuck there. If they leave, they miss an enormous amount of experience and gold. This leaves you free to do all sorts of other things.
You could back, buy items, return to lane missing next to no experience, and dominate your opponent with item advantage (and being fully healed)
You could roam to another lane, and gank them.
You could fight over Dragon.
You could go into the enemy (or your own) jungle and kill some minions.
Superlative pushers like Mordekaiser can often steal both teams' Wraith camps, with wards, and amass a giant experience and gold lead that way.

Applying lane pressure
When the enemy is away from the lane, pushing forces them to return, or risk having their tower taken (and losing tons of gold and experience to the tower). If the enemy is dead, or backed, doing this punishes them pretty effectively; this is why you push after killing your lane opponents, if doing so is safe. Sometimes you can also bait your opponents into staying, to get one more last hit; this opens up the possibility of tower diving.

Resetting the wave
Forcing the minion wave into tower means it will push back towards you, since the tower kills minions quickly. If you lost control of the wave, and you want it back, you can push hard to recover. Be warned that if your opponent can push as effectively, this can backfire; he can freeze the wave at his tower.

Manage the Wave
Managing the wave is as simple as countering your opponent's lane pressure, and understanding how to most effectively prevent them from getting gold or experience.
Some champions are really bad at this. Champions who cannot push effectively, or cannot tank minions, are vulnerable to pushing, and cannot push back. Others, like Singed, are very effective pushers, and so can choose to push, or to let the wave be stuck near their tower, depending on the matchup.
If you're playing a champion that cannot push, learn to last hit under tower, because it's going to happen a lot. If you can push... if you can zone your opponent out of experience, it's most effective to freeze the wave near your tower for as long as possible. Stand in the middle of the enemy minions, last hit, and stop your opponent from getting closer.
If you can't zone your opponent, you want to wreck their ability to last hit. If they are poor pushers, push them to tower, and roam. If they are also good pushers, or at least on par with you, you have a standoff; the lane will be decided by ganks, harass, and other skills.
Generally, you want to keep the wave thin. If your opponent has massively more minions than you do, you cannot trade effectively with him, since minions will hurt you an enormous amount. If you have more minions than your opponent, you are probably immune to harass, but the wave will push his way, and last hitting against a dozen caster minions is hard. Whether this is good or bad depends on if you're concerned about him zoning you, or if you want to roam or go back.

Make sure to take opportunities. If you aren't paying attention to the wave, or your careful freeze is ruined by your jungler, check if you need to spend gold, or if other lanes are overextended. You could push and roam. Did your opponent leave? Smash the wave into his tower.

[TechnOkami]

I am SO curious as to what the annoying comment was.
SO curious.

The enemy team trying to compensate for their horrific loss by saying something vulgar and riddled with swear words. It was a single phrase, and I didn't feel that showing it on GitP was appropriate.

[Lix Lorn]

Fair enough. Thanks.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I'm doing pretty well with the new girl using a mix of Doran's, Brutalizers, Wriggles', and Bloodthirsters. Boots tend to be defensive, since CC is not her friend.

I'm doing -really- well, though. Is she broken, or have people not figured out how to stop her yet? There was one on each enemy team I've played against as well, and I always outplayed them, despite having a 1v2 lane each time (nobody jungles anymore... :smallannoyed:)

[fred dref]

(nobody jungles anymore... :smallannoyed:)

I've noticed a direct correlation between low-Elo games/non-arranged 5 games, and a lack of junglers.

[ex cathedra]

I'm doing pretty well with the new girl using a mix of Doran's, Brutalizers, Wriggles', and Bloodthirsters. Boots tend to be defensive, since CC is not her friend.

I'm doing -really- well, though. Is she broken, or have people not figured out how to stop her yet? There was one on each enemy team I've played against as well, and I always outplayed them, despite having a 1v2 lane each time (nobody jungles anymore... :smallannoyed:)

She seems alright to me. Her E is really easily nullified and her R has woefully short range. On the other hand, if you aren't interrupted she pumps out respectable DPS and her ulti is just really strong. QQRD just slays single targets. Her numbers are all mostly solid, really. I don't feel like she's distinctly on either side of the power spectrum. I'm not really digging the glass cannon build, personally, and so I find that generic bruiser builds (Phage + Wit's End all day err day) suit me just fine.

The main issue with giving her the Riven (BT-BT-GA) treatment is that she scales really well with crit and thus Atma's lends itself especially well to her.

[Ivellius]

The biggest problem I can see with Fiora is her sustain. It seems like her passive makes her pretty hard to move out of a lane unless she's against someone with high burst.

That's said with no experience in playing with/against her, mind, just watching some GuardsmanBob streams. But I dunno.

[ex cathedra]

Her passive at level 1 is ~7 HP/5. Her passive at level 18 is ~ 21 HP/5. That's not a great deal. Her sustain is weaker than Irelia's and Nasus' at pretty much every level.

[fred dref]

The biggest problem I can see with Fiora is her sustain. It seems like her passive makes her pretty hard to move out of a lane unless she's against someone with high burst.

It's comparable to a Philo Stone or a Wriggle's unless stacking the passive on champions (not including the fact that Wriggle's also scales with other items). Having a passive that isn't quite as good as a mid tier item seems to be fairly par for the course. Certainly not as good as Nasus or Irelia, never mind Warwick, Udyr, Lee Sin, etc. I count her as a sustain lane, certainly, but I do not count her as a supersustain. Sustained champs are champs who can mitigate harass and small back-and-forth damage, whereas Supersustained champs can all but ignore anything but serious engagement level damage. At least, those are my definitions. Riven, for example, I consider sustained (due to the shield) whereas Udyr, with a shield and a ton of both mana and lifesteal, is very much supersustained. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GIf9gKAhb0)

[Ivellius]

Right, but she's a sustaining carry. She seems like she can outdamage most other top-laners once the ult goes up, and not having to back means she'll get those levels (and gold) faster. She can shrug off occasional harass with her Riposte, and, as fred noted, her passive can stack off enemy champions. She can also Lunge or Speed away.

Is she the most sustainable? No, certainly not. But she seems to be a little bit better in that regard than other melee carries (maybe not Tryndamere?). If you're fighting her over a prolonged duration she can be regenerating up to 28 x her level every 6 seconds, and if you just run up and try to hit her once she'll parry it. (Does Riposte work on on-hit effects like Parrrley and Mystic Shot?) It just seems like her laning is pretty strong right now, is what I'm saying.

[fred dref]

Right, but she's a sustaining carry. She seems like she can outdamage most other top-laners once the ult goes up, and not having to back means she'll get those levels (and gold) faster. She can shrug off occasional harass with her Riposte, and, as fred noted, her passive can stack off enemy champions. She can also Lunge or Speed away.

Is she the most sustainable? No, certainly not. But she seems to be a little bit better in that regard than other melee carries (maybe not Tryndamere?). If you're fighting her over a prolonged duration she can be regenerating up to 28 x her level every 6 seconds, and if you just run up and try to hit her once she'll parry it. (Does Riposte work on on-hit effects like Parrrley and Mystic Shot?) It just seems like her laning is pretty strong right now, is what I'm saying.

A bit off, unfortunately. 28+4*her level over 6 seconds, which results in 16 HP/second. At one attack per second, a not inconsiderable amount of top lanes get that much HP back just by attacking with Wriggle's, and they don't have to stack up attacks to get it or wait until level 18. I mean, yes, she gets it for free, but Trynd gets his Q, Yi gets Meditate, Riven has a shield. She's basically up to par as far as the weaker sustain champs go, which isn't bad, but isn't something to write home about either.

[ex cathedra]

She doesn't have nearly that much sustain. Her passive is (level + 7) health per 6 seconds, per stack. That's 8 per 6 at level 1 and 25 per 6 at level 18.

Stacking the passive against other champions will provoke minion aggro, and they will seriously out-damage your healing at low levels.

It's very, very mild sustain, and it's much less than what you would get from Wriggles, which practically everyone buys anyways. She'll be significantly out-sustaining pretty much no one.

Her laning doesn't have too much going for it. It's not bad, it's just not super duper strong. Her W does counter Parrrley, Mystic Shot, Siphoning Strike, and every other attack that applies onhits (including each and every hit of an enemy Fiora's ultimate, if you're playing in blind pick), but that doesn't stop Gangplank from just brutalizing you in lane. She loses to GP and all of the generically strong top lane counterpicks (Teemo, Yorick, Malphite, Riven, Vlad, Rumble, etc) so she kind of just has to get picked against a passive lane and try to farm your way into the midgame. She does nothing without items.

[Dogmantra]

I just jungle her. She's decent, not great but it gets over the fact that there's probably like twelve Irelias laning against you. Her ganks are alright, good enough with Red, but ugh, the range on her ult I think needs buffing a little, she can't use it without getting insta killed against many team comps.

[Mephit]

I finally got LoL installed on my comp again, so I figured I'd finally say hi formally! :smallsmile:
I've been playing League for a while, but it's been a few months since I've really played, and most of the people I've played with has quit. So I hope I can play with some of you guys on here. You seem like a rambunctious bunch.

Currently leveling an old NA account.

Server: NA
Forum Name: Mephit
Summoner Name: Elleonora (I'm a Poe fan, yes.)

I used to play support and top quite a bit.

[Kzickas]

Server: EU east/nordics
Summoner name: Kzickas
Forum Name: Kzickas

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I'm sure at some point I'll need to transition to a boots-phage-wriggles-wit's-mallet-atma's build for Fiora, but for now my pseudo-Talon build is working.

[Eldariel]

I'm looking at Wriggle's > Youmuu's > Vamp Sceptre + IE on Fiora but I'm not sure if Wriggle's is truly optimal on her; seems you'd just want damage fast. Pretty sure you do want Youmuu's on her tho since she has huge ASpd steroid but needs crit chance and damage.

She has some trouble using Trinity efficiently so I think Youmuu's is the way to go. Could also use Atma's of course but that'd probably require a bit more bruiserish build to reach similar levels of efficiency.


Looking at lategame Greaves/BT/Youmuu/IE/GA/QSS or so. Don't think her ult works with crits but for her to have damage outside her ult a build to this effect looks necessary.

EDIT: Hm, I wonder if her ult procs On-Hits fully every time. 'cause if it does, some kind of a Madred's/Wit's/etc. style build could actually work on her.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

EDIT: Hm, I wonder if her ult procs On-Hits fully every time. 'cause if it does, some kind of a Madred's/Wit's/etc. style build could actually work on her.

It procs on each strike, from everything I've read and seen, but the effectiveness would depend on how many people are in the radius when you ult.

[lord_khaine]

Dam jungling Alistar with T-force&Wiggle is just beastly :smallbiggrin:

Thanks for telling me about it, its been a blast so far.

[Eldariel]

It procs on each strike, from everything I've read and seen, but the effectiveness would depend on how many people are in the radius when you ult.

Aye, on-hit would be slightly better against single targets but lackluster against teams; I counted full on-hit ult at single 3k hp target does about 2.8k damage while full DPS build ult at a single target does about 2.7k (and if even one attack hits another target it's already more damage for DPS build, not to mention DPS build's non-ult damage). So definitely not worth it, though my DPS build had 4 damage items while on-hit only contained 3 (Madred, Wit's, Ionic).


Dam jungling Alistar with T-force&Wiggle is just beastly :smallbiggrin:

Thanks for telling me about it, its been a blast so far.

It is a ton and half of fun. Don't forget IE after :smallbiggrin:

[Delusion]

DFG on Ahri, yay or nay?

[TechnOkami]

DFG on Ahri, yay or nay?

I've always felt DFG was a situational item, specifically for those annoying tanks no one can seem to kill. Since she's ap, it would work, but if there's no one which needs an outright slaughtering, then there's probably a better substitute.

[Eldariel]

DFG on Ahri, yay or nay?

It's not a bad item, per ce. It is, however, neither a Core item. But after Deathcap, Will and Void you kinda have leeway on Ahri; Rylai, DFG, Abyssal, whatever-you-feel-you-need. Depends on the game. For what it's worth, with the new Masteries and the bluebuff, the CDR actually comes into play and puts you at cap; kinda nice, that.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

DFG on Ahri, yay or nay?

I've tried it a fair few times. Works well, but I usually prefer grabbing a Rylai's as my fourth big item. Usually, mind. It's a decide-each-match kinda thing, to be sure.

[ex cathedra]

I just jungle her. She's decent, not great but it gets over the fact that there's probably like twelve Irelias laning against you. Her ganks are alright, good enough with Red, but ugh, the range on her ult I think needs buffing a little, she can't use it without getting insta killed against many team comps.

I get you. She has infinite sustain with nothing but Vamp Scepter and she has decent speeds relative to other single-target junglers. Snoopeh pointed out that she can safely take a Wolves-Blue-Wraiths-Red route and gank with QWE and double buff fairly early.

I really dislike that Q doesn'y apply on-hits. It makes zero sense, logically and thematically, but it would be really strong if it applied Red/Wit's End/etc. The range on her ultimate is very nearly identical to that of flash, isn't it? I think it's too low, too, but QR increases its range to 1000 and QQR increases it to 1600. Still a bit finicky, highly situational, and pretty wasteful.


DFG on Ahri, yay or nay?
DFG is solid, but Ahri's extended core (Hat, Void Staff, WotA, Rylai's) takes priority. If you don't need QSS, GA, Abyssal, or Hourglass, I don't see why you shouldn't pick up a DFG.


So definitely not worth it, though my DPS build had 4 damage items while on-hit only contained 3 (Madred, Wit's, Ionic). I imagine that Malady would push those numbers up more than a bit, but I definitely wouldn't suggest that build to anyone.


I'm looking at Wriggle's > Youmuu's > Vamp Sceptre + IE on Fiora but I'm not sure if Wriggle's is truly optimal on her; seems you'd just want damage fast. Pretty sure you do want Youmuu's on her tho since she has huge ASpd steroid but needs crit chance and damage. I'm thinking about passing on Youmuu's in favor of LW+Atma's. Youmuu's is such a strong item on paper but I find that there's never really a good time to purchase it and Last Whisper is honestly just too strong in comparison.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I've been going Dorans->Boots->Dorans->Finish Boots->Brutalizer/Wriggle's->Other->Ghostblade->Bloodthirster->Brutalizer

I'm open to options, and perhaps a DoubleDorans-Wriggles into Phantom Edge could work as well.

I usually get defensive boots rather than Zerks, just because of how ludicrous her E is.

Brutalizer is the best source of CDR I can think of on her, and allows you to have absurd uptime on her E and good timing on her Q.

I'm torn on what to max on her. I've been maxing W first, but I've had a lot of 1v2 lanes, and having more AD to simplify the last hits I can sneak in has been a big priority. I favor Q over E generally, unless I feel a tower or objective is coming up within the level.

[Ivellius]

I either misread the wiki or just can't do math as well as I thought late at night. Fiora's sustain isn't as good as I was thinking. (I'm also surprised Lunge doesn't apply on-hits.) Bob got destroyed in a lane against a Yi, though, so good burst can definitely take her down.

Ah well. She seems decent enough. I don't play enough (or care about buying RP) to get all the new champs, but hopefully people are having fun with her.

[fred dref]

Purple side jungle Alistar: attack speed reds, armor yellows, MR blues, choice quints (I use move speed). 9/12/9 (take anything that makes you harder to kill by minions and kill minions faster), start with boots, ward and pot, kill red with some help (lead with smite, don't save it, you want it to be up as quickly as possible) and run across to your Blue. Walk across the river into the enemy jungle, ward their Red, gank bottom lane from the Tribush. Take care to not be seen by bottom lane or mid as you do this, as if bottom haven't seen you, Headbutt, Pulverize and Red Buff make this possibly the scariest level 2 gank. You'll then be in a good spot to try to Smite steal their Red. Headbutt in as it's almost in Smite range, Pulverize to take it to Smite range and then steal it and walk away. Due to your boots start, your outrageous CC and the fact that you likely have a numbers advantage bottom lane from that gank, I'll be surprised if you don't get out afterwards.

Thoughts?

[Dallas-Dakota]

Bored with League.
Ooh, AP Yi! SO. MUCH. FUN.

This is how I play him, will this auto-win you the game? No. Will you do massive amounts of damage? Yes. Either way, I had fun, so I win.

Put this on repeat. Warning: If left on too long, might cause insanity, insomnia, dry skin and starting to hum the song at random moments. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXJABfgCLHQ&feature=related)

Call mid and say AP.
Spells: Flash + Whatever takes your fancy.(I take ignite, helps me get fed early game, but you can get away with anything.)
Runes: Magic pen, MP5's, CDR's and Health quints.
Masteries: 21/0/9

Buy 2/3 dorans + boots. Dominate your lane, always.
Buy a hat.
Buy a DFG.
Buy Hourglass/Lich Bane
Buy Lich bane/Hourglass
Sixth item? Either you're fed enough that you should not buy a 6th item but just go win the game or it's so lategame that you'l be instantly squashed.

Leveling your skills:
Max Q first, max W second, take R whenever you can, ignore E till you have to take it.

Laning:
Play passively, last hitting the first three minions that want to die.
Wait till enemy champion is in range > Alpha strike closest minion.
Grongratulations, free harass. This however, will push up your lane, so remember to ward! If they have any team awareness, they will gank you because you're dominating. Wards are most defintely worth it.

The person you're laning against is scary and won't let you last hit? Don't worry, use your alpha strike a bit looser. with using alpha strike regularly, you'l be out-cs'ing and thus still winning the lane.
And remember, you can always turret hug:
How to last hit under the turret:
Fighter minions: 2 turret hits, then last hit it.
Caster minions: 1 hit from you, 1 hit from the turret, then last hit it.

You're getting harass? Sit back just within xp range and Meditate, et voila, full health. Not doing well? Call for ganks, complaining that the enemy jungler has ganked more.

Post 6: You have your Base, 2/3 dorans rings + boots. At some point the enemy will b, look at top and bottom to see if they're up for a gank. A good mid will gank if possible, helping other lanes.

Important: Always keep an eye on the map(Don't worry, you have seven, plenty to spare.) because of possible counterjungling. If you see your jungler engaging in a non-idiotic way, go help him. If you see that top/bottom is mia ping for him to B. Better safe then sorry.


When laning is over:

1.Is there a squishy enemy champion nearby? Yes. Apply 2. No? Apply 3.
2. Activate R+E, Rush at him, DFG + Alpha strike + lich bane hit. Is it dead yet? Yes. Apply 4. No? Apply 5.
3. Find something to Alpha Strike.
4. Grongratulations, your cooldowns have now been refreshed. Go back to step 1.
5. Do they have something to disrupt your meditate and can kill you easily? Yes, apply 6. No? Apply 7.
6. Meditate + hourglass. Spam /all chat with how pro you are while you outheal all their attempts to kill you. Go back to Step 1.(The squishy enemy champion might've grown bored or too frustrated and has possibly ran away)
7. Flash+ Run because your ult is still up. Are you dead? Go to step 8.
8. Move a screen or two away, trolololol meditate. Go back to Step 1.

[Eldariel]

I'm thinking about passing on Youmuu's in favor of LW+Atma's. Youmuu's is such a strong item on paper but I find that there's never really a good time to purchase it and Last Whisper is honestly just too strong in comparison.

Well, you'll get LW either way. The full build would be Youmuu IE BT LW Boots Defense or Atma IE BT LW Boots Defense; latter mostly has significant advantage if your defense is HP-based. I do like QSS on her tho to enable two sources of Cleanse > Ulti bailout.

Tested Vamp > Youmuu > IE > LW > BT, works really well. You ASpd cap with Youmuu + Greaves + E + Green Pot (just barely) so this is the absolute maximum ASpd I'd build on her. She duels other carries exceptionally well thanks to Riposte and this build is in the upper end of her ult damage builds (talking about base 900 with 46% ArPen and ~40 flat).


She seems to jungle incredibly well with even just Vamp Scepter. First clear is a bit hairy without a strong pull but a pull + jungle-optimized AD page makes it rather well and after that, it doesn't even seem like Wriggle's were an especially necessary item on her; she clears fast, reliably and stays full all the time.

I'm not sure about laning; I think I like Doran's Blades there and just using standard carry build except with Youmuu's instead of PD. Especially early game I really like the CDR in conjunction with her ult; being able to cut ~20 secs off it is pretty major for ganking frequency.

[Sohala]

Okay...how do you stop/null Fiora's ult? I have both rooted her with Ryze and Blinded her with Teemo and she still jumps around dealing damage...

[fred dref]

Okay...how do you stop/null Fiora's ult? I have both rooted her with Ryze and Blinded her with Teemo and she still jumps around dealing damage...

Technically, as it is neither classified as a movement ability nor an attack, only Silence, Suppression, Stun and Forced Movement (Knockback and Knockup) should be able to stop it. Oh, and fear.

[Eldariel]

Okay...how do you stop/null Fiora's ult? I have both rooted her with Ryze and Blinded her with Teemo and she still jumps around dealing damage...

You don't. Her ult is like Alpha Strike; she's immune to basically everything during it (tho annoyingly, channels still function; for instance, Fiddle Drain is not interrupted by her ult). You have to root her before it. She can't use it Rooted so if that happened, she either removed the Root with Cleanse/QSS or used it "before" being hit by the Bind.


Technically, as it is neither classified as a movement ability nor an attack, only Silence, Suppression, Stun and Forced Movement (Knockback and Knockup) should be able to stop it. Oh, and fear.

I wasn't able to ult from Rune Prison, for what it's worth.

[fred dref]

I wasn't able to ult from Rune Prison, for what it's worth.

Really? Are you sure you were in range? I only ask because I've seen Fioras appear to use it from snare, but perhaps they just spammed R and used it right as it ended. I'll admit I haven't tested it.

[Eldariel]

Really? Are you sure you were in range? I only ask because I've seen Fioras appear to use it from snare, but perhaps they just spammed R and used it right as it ended. I'll admit I haven't tested it.

They might've also used it right when the snare hit 'cause that works. But while I didn't pay that much attention, I do remember it being annoying enough that next game I took Cleanse instead of Flash so I must've tried at least a few times and it must have not worked.

EDIT: Unrelated, I've been playing around with the best 5xRanged AD Carry line-up lately. So far I've got:
- Vayne & Kog'Maw: hardest-scaling AD carries in the game.
- Kog'Maw & Corki: AD carries with large enough amounts of magic damage in their kits to make no-MR builds a liability.
- Sivir, Ezreal & Corki: force multipliers (ASpd and ArPen respectively)
- Ashe, Caitlyn & Vayne: CC on Ranged AD

I've forged the following line-up:
Vayne, Kog'Maw, Corki, Sivir & Ashe. Rationale being to include both, force multipliers and the champs that most benefit of them. Ashe's there to provide reliable initiation and some CC; she'll be run as a support in the bottom.

Kog, Corki and Vayne provide very significant amounts of magic and true damage (Corki has a decent amount of both, Kog is heavy magic, Vayne is heavy true) to somewhat alleviate the inevitable armor stack. Vayne also provides some extra CC, and both Vayne and Kog have steroids scaling off Sivir's ASpd boost (all of which goes well with Corki's ArPen).


Vayne top, Kog mid, Sivir/Ashe bot, Corki jungle (against a standard Bruiser Top, Mage Mid, AD/Support Bot, Whatever Jungle comp).


Oh, since this is mostly a "fun theme team exercise", I limited myself to "true" AD carries; I suppose Kennen still qualifies but I excluded champs like Teemo, TF and Annie with somewhat doable but suboptimal Ranged AD builds.

Complete list of champs I considered:
Ashe
Corki
Ezreal
Sivir
Twitch
Miss Fortune
Kog'Maw
Urgot
Caitlyn
Vayne
Graves

[fred dref]

Complete list of champs I considered:
Ashe
Corki
Ezreal
Sivir
Twitch
Miss Fortune
Kog'Maw
Caitlyn
Vayne
Graves

Didn't consider AD Nidalee?

Also, aethernox and I recently played a game, just to test if Trynd could ult while feared (some people on Reddit claimed you could not). It kinda got silly. (http://imgur.com/gEyHR)

[Eldariel]

Didn't consider AD Nidalee?

Meh, she did pass through my mind, but AD Nidalee often fights in melee with Cougar Form; I feel she'd fly against the spirit of Ranged AD Only. One I did forget to list is Urgot; considered him but obviously rejected him. The ArPen could be v. useful tho, as well as his laning and ult initiation, so he's a consideration-worthy option.

[Sohala]

Which is better overall, full MR pent or full AP/level?

[Math_Mage]

Dam jungling Alistar with T-force&Wiggle is just beastly :smallbiggrin:

Thanks for telling me about it, its been a blast so far.

Don't get Wriggle's. As jungle Alistar, you don't need the clearing help, you don't need the sustain, and you don't REALLY need the Dragon help. I'd probably get Philo Stone, Sheen, and Treads/Tabi/Mobility, and then choose between getting tankier or finishing Trinity.


Which is better overall, full MR pent or full AP/level?

Mpen reds > AP/lvl reds
AP/lvl blues > Mpen blues
AP/lvl quints > Mpen quints...I think. Certainly that's the default.

[fred dref]

Don't get Wriggle's. As jungle Alistar, you don't need the clearing help, you don't need the sustain, and you don't REALLY need the Dragon help. I'd probably get Philo Stone, Sheen, and Treads/Tabi/Mobility, and then choose between getting tankier or finishing Trinity.

I actually like Wriggle's on Alistar. He doesn't need the item by any means, but I like to abuse his CC by invading the enemy jungle really aggressively, and Wriggle's means I can take a buff fairly quickly and get out with no problems. It's a personal choice, sort of thing.

[Math_Mage]

I actually like Wriggle's on Alistar. He doesn't need the item by any means, but I like to abuse his CC by invading the enemy jungle really aggressively, and Wriggle's means I can take a buff fairly quickly and get out with no problems. It's a personal choice, sort of thing.

Well, here's the thing: With Philo Stone and Sheen, you can still do that for nearly the same cost (not quite AS fast, but still reliably quick). You're also gaining gp5, and you're building towards two of Alistar's big items, and you do more damage in ganks, and you need blue less.

[fred dref]

Well, here's the thing: With Philo Stone and Sheen, you can still do that for nearly the same cost (not quite AS fast, but still reliably quick). You're also gaining gp5, and you're building towards two of Alistar's big items, and you do more damage in ganks, and you need blue less.

To be fair, Wriggle's means you can do more clearing with autoattacks, also resulting in less Blue dependence.

[lord_khaine]

Its also more armor, more damage and a free ward, as well as a huge help towards taking the red&blue buffs fast and effective.

[toasty]

To be fair, Wriggle's means you can do more clearing with autoattacks, also resulting in less Blue dependence.

And free ward. It really depends on your playstyle. Sheen is better for ganks. Wriggles better for late game (FREE WARDS, faster farming) and dragon fights.

[Bunny of Faith]

So, completely disregarding the fact I've got like six and a half levels to go before I'm 30: Are there any champions I should be learning if I wanted to win all my placement matches when I take my first foray into ranked? :smalltongue:

[lord_khaine]

So, completely disregarding the fact I've got like six and a half levels to go before I'm 30: Are there any champions I should be learning if I wanted to win all my placement matches when I take my first foray into ranked?

You dont want to do that, since that would artificialy inflate your elo, making the following crash more painfull.

[Bunny of Faith]

You dont want to do that, since that would artificialy inflate your elo, making the following crash more painfull.

Yeah, but it's easier to go down than it is to go up. :smalltongue: As far as I'm aware, I'm not that bad of a player. So optimistically learning someone who is fairly adept at winning games means I'll end up where I'm supposed to be faster, in terms of ELO.

[fred dref]

Cassiopeia is a strong mid that can carry games. I'm pretty sure Lee Sin is still a good jungler, and Shyvana is great at jungle control, although weaker at ganking than some. Rammus and Maokai are strong, but often banned. Bottom lane is mostly an open field, it's fairly balanced with Vayne having the weakest lane but best late game, and Corki being strong at all points of the game. Top lanes are massively determined by counterpicking, possibly moreso than any other lane, and as such learning a few tops is a good idea. Kennen, Irelia and Lee Sin are all strong top lane choices right now. Generally, people who are strong early and are not weak late game are the best for carrying. This means champions like Garen are often not worth picking due to falling off quickly (although I honestly don't think Garen is that strong early anymore anyway) and champions like Nasus are often a poor idea because you don't really make an impact on the game until later on, and you need your team to be at least pulling even until that point. Because the enemy top may well be roaming and invading your jungle, you really need your team to be aware of the fact that you're a bit weak early on.

However, play what you're good at. I get better results when I play Alistar or Mundo than when I play Lee Sin or Shyvana. I do better as Poppy or Nasus than as Riven or Kennen. This is because the characters click for me, and I play in a way that maximizes their strengths and minimizes their weaknesses.

[Chumbaniya]

Yeah, but it's easier to go down than it is to go up. :smalltongue: As far as I'm aware, I'm not that bad of a player. So optimistically learning someone who is fairly adept at winning games means I'll end up where I'm supposed to be faster, in terms of ELO.

I've got a couple of levels until I'm level 30 and I reckon I should be able to do half decently, but I'm just going to stick to champions I know I'm good at. I jungle more than anything else, and while I see a lot of stuff about how great Lee Sin is and see him played loads at a high level, after playing extensively as him during the free week I realised I was just abysmal at playing him. If I jungle Cho'gath, however, who is almost never played at a high level, let alone jungled, I carry a startling large proportion of my games.

Don't think about learning champions who are 'good at winning games'. Think about learning which champions you are good at winning games with.

EDIT: Or just play Amumu. WIN EVERYTHING. Such a great champion.

[lord_khaine]

Yeah, but it's easier to go down than it is to go up. As far as I'm aware, I'm not that bad of a player. So optimistically learning someone who is fairly adept at winning games means I'll end up where I'm supposed to be faster, in terms of ELO.

Well, i guess you could give jungle Alistar a spin then.

I start scepter and E on blue, and then clears everything in one go before returning to base and buying boots.

Then armed with red buff i go off to gank whoever is exposed in lane.

My item core is Wiggle + mercs, and i usualy then either starts on the Triforce, or gets tanky.

[Winthur]

As far as I'm aware, I'm not that bad of a player.

Honestly the best mindset to keep during ranked games if you want to improve is that you suck and that you need to improve so that you look very critically at what you are doing. It's a little bit like with StarCraft.

Although there is a fair bit of pubstomper heroes who can win the game really well (Lee Sin is that for jungle for instance), you are better off just sticking to your main champions. Other than Evelynn there are no grossly underpowered champions and if you are, say, a great Heimerdinger player, you can utilize this to win.

Someone here is recommending jungle Alistar - he's a great pick in low ELO solo queue where people have no idea what to do and get ganked so easily, and if you get fed you can actually dish out a ton of damage and control teamfights a lot. Although I'd say that Wriggles on him are a mistake, the stats it gives aren't that useful for Alistar and other items like Sheen make him much stronger in comparison.

In general though I figure that for solo top, the best champion would probably be Irelia/Gangplank/Tryndamere - farm, get strong, pick people off, win teamfights. For mid, I'd say a good burst caster with some decent late game potential (unless you know well how to play LeBlanc you might have some problems with her in the late game) or just with a murderous laning phase - Cassiopeia, Brand, Xerath, Kennen fit the bill. AD carry - I'd say Graves or Sivir. You can actually win games as a support but it takes a ton of focus because it basically means that you act like a maphack for your teammates in low ELO - you put wards everywhere and you tell your mates exactly where the lanes or the jungler is. You call all the MIAs. You also heal the most competent person in your team as much as possible. For jungle - Lee Sin.

[fred dref]

I start scepter and E on blue, and then clears everything in one go before returning to base and buying boots.

Is there any particular reason you start E? I ask mainly because Q does more damage and you shouldn't need the healing on Blue itself, making it fine to take it at 2, after you clear Blue. I can't really see an advantage to E>Q over Q>E.

[Winthur]

Is there any particular reason you start E? I ask mainly because Q does more damage and you shouldn't need the healing on Blue itself, making it fine to take it at 2, after you clear Blue. I can't really see an advantage to E>Q over Q>E.

He also starts Vampiric Scepter which doesn't help his ganking at all. I'd say to go boots + 3 pots. Additional mobility makes ganks really strong. Health pots help Alistar sustain in both the jungle and in between ganks. Also, starting with E denies you the level 2 gank because you can't do Q and W. With Alistar being a champion who is being superaggressive from the start and should be using his skillset to gank as often and soon as possible (and if they don't work, often diminishes into a support role). So in most cases I don't see a reason for getting E in the space of level 1 and level 2.

[Eldariel]

So, completely disregarding the fact I've got like six and a half levels to go before I'm 30: Are there any champions I should be learning if I wanted to win all my placement matches when I take my first foray into ranked? :smalltongue:

Eh. First of all, the most common Ranked bans seem to be:
Rammus
Shaco
Kassadin

Don't bother learning any of those champs; you'll barely get to play them (and just ban them yourself if you're first pick; they're common bans specifically because they stomp solo queue). Next tier of bans seems to include:
Morgana
Ahri
Cassiopeia
Shen
Lee Sin
Amumu (in low Elo, ergo where the placement matches happen)

Usually the remaining three bans are composed of those champs. They're probably worth learning though since while often banned, there are only 6 bans per game so some of them are always open.

There are also stray bans like LB, Tryndamere, Mordekaiser, Kennen, etc. but those are rare enough to not consider.


Beyond that, learn a couple of simple, efficient junglers. Amumu, Lee Sin & Fiddle would form a good, varying trio for instance. Obviously nothing wrong with the laundry list of WW, Noc, Udyr, Shyvana, Riven, Olaf, etc.

Few good mages for mid. I'd try to get good on them since to carry games, you wanna be mid. So if you can master mages, you can carry like no other. There's...like all the mages are good if played well. Every single one. Except Viktor, but even he's decent. Everybody from Ahri to Zilean (notice how the first and the last champ in the game are both Mages, btw?) is perfectly viable and perfectly capable of carrying the game. Some are easier than others of course; Vladimir is up there for easy, strong, high-presence Mage that scales well.

Learn few AD bots. It's enough to just know Sivir and Ashe, though obviously Trist/Vayne/Koggy/Corki/Ez/MF/Graves/etc. are all just fine too provided how well you learn them. I would learn Sivir especially tho, she's very safe, strong laner and high impact in teamfights so good for carrying (far as ADs go).

Few champs that can top; most mages work. Many ADs do too (Vayne, Graves and Corki in particular). Then you have your Udyrs, Rivens, Nasuses...like half the champs in the game are viable in mid.


Supports, meh, avoid playing supports for placement matches. You kinda should probably wait until ~1600s-1800s until you actually start playing supports since it's hard to carry with support if your AD is bad, and while you win more than you lose if you play well, it's way slower that way.

[Dogmantra]

There's...like all the mages are good if played well. Every single one. Except Viktor, but even he's decent.
Oh no you did not just diss THE best mage in the game. Not power wise, but BITCHIN'-NESS wise. And I do disagree with the assertion that he's not as good as some other mages if played well. I'd put him like a more mild LeBlanc or Xerath. He has his little niche but he's not as easily countered and just you TRY to gank him with a soft closer (top tip: this is impossible).

Also he's a cyberman, what's not to like?



Supports, meh, avoid playing supports for placement matches. You kinda should probably wait until ~1600s-1800s until you actually start playing supports since it's hard to carry with support and while you win more than you lose if you play well, it's way slower that way.
I agree to an extent. I find that Taric can carry if you can get your lanemate (or yourself) fed since he's something of a playmaker, and Janna can certainly carry lower ELO games by sheer refusal to allow anyone to die ever, and the fact that you don't need to do well in the lane since her kit is kind of fantastic with six hats, a full support build or just a Tiamat.

[Eldariel]

Oh no you did not just diss THE best mage in the game. Not power wise, but BITCHIN'-NESS wise. And I do disagree with the assertion that he's not as good as some other mages if played well. I'd put him like a more mild LeBlanc or Xerath. He has his little niche but he's not as easily countered and just you TRY to gank him with a soft closer (top tip: this is impossible).

Also he's a cyberman, what's not to like?

He's good enough to carry with but the lategame item capping can be a problem if you're getting fed like you're always as AP mid in low level games, compared to any other option.

I feel he's slightly weaker than e.g. Xer or LeB; they all have their nichés but the other two offer similar early game power with greater lategame power. He's awesome but if seeking to win all the placement matches, I don't think he's the easiest option for it. Of course, if you're a good player and a good Viktor you'll still be fine but he's not a champ I'd go out of my way to learn to carry placement matches.

[lord_khaine]

He also starts Vampiric Scepter which doesn't help his ganking at all. I'd say to go boots + 3 pots. Additional mobility makes ganks really strong. Health pots help Alistar sustain in both the jungle and in between ganks. Also, starting with E denies you the level 2 gank because you can't do Q and W. With Alistar being a champion who is being superaggressive from the start and should be using his skillset to gank as often and soon as possible (and if they don't work, often diminishes into a support role). So in most cases I don't see a reason for getting E in the space of level 1 and level 2.

Ahh, please TRY and read everything i say?
Like the part about buying boots before doing any ganking?


Is there any particular reason you start E? I ask mainly because Q does more damage and you shouldn't need the healing on Blue itself, making it fine to take it at 2, after you clear Blue. I can't really see an advantage to E>Q over Q>E.

Its mostly for keeping my health up, and since the cooldown is much lower, then i can use it more often, leading to increased damage from the passive.

[Winthur]

Ahh, please TRY and read everything i say?
Like the part about buying boots before doing any ganking?

So, yeah, you start boots and then you can gank much better. You also don't start with E, get Q+W, and gank at level 2. That's much stronger than clearing and then ganking in my opinion. Particularly against champs who unlock their escape moves at level 2 or even 3 in some fringe cases.

[Adumbration]

A question. Who's the best target for Yorick ult? Whoever happens to be dying, or the AD carry (just for the 75% damage)?

[Eldariel]

A question. Who's the best target for Yorick ult? Whoever happens to be dying, or the AD carry (just for the 75% damage)?

At the start of a teamfight you want to invariably clone the AD carry; the damage is massive. It's basically a 6-player team, especially if your clone is Vayne-level. Midfight, it depends.

Like, if you can you want to revive a high DPS source if they're going down; reviving AP carry is not bad for instance, and bruisers can be very sensible too especially if they have key cooldowns still up. In general though, for either revival or copying AD carry is the prime target (provided they're decently farmed and built of course; otherwise defer to whoever your primary source of DPS is and if they are ability-based, wait until they're in danger of dying to copy).

[Chumbaniya]

Bough Volibear today as he's on sale - fun times! I've been jungling him so far and once you get into the late game you hit like a truck. It's a lot of fun to see enemies scatter before you as soon as you activate your Q and run at them, even if you're just faking it.

[Lix Lorn]

Janna can certainly carry lower ELO games by sheer refusal to allow anyone to die ever, and the fact that you don't need to do well in the lane since her kit is kind of fantastic with six hats, a full support build or just a Tiamat.
6 tiamats
Ranked
I dare you

[lord_khaine]

So, yeah, you start boots and then you can gank much better. You also don't start with E, get Q+W, and gank at level 2. That's much stronger than clearing and then ganking in my opinion. Particularly against champs who unlock their escape moves at level 2 or even 3 in some fringe cases.

You start ganking earlier, if its better is entirely another question.

[Winthur]

You start ganking earlier, if its better is entirely another question.

Of course it is?

Alistar has really high lane pressure at no cost to him because like old Nunu he can just camp a lane, get ganks off, snowball his laner and transition into support. Or, alternately, he gets a lot of ganks off and gets strong items allowing his ganks to be even stronger, and his mid-game making him a strong bruiser.

How is that ever inferior to clearing the entire jungle with a subpar starting item?

With vampiric scepter, if you ever gank before boots (and sometimes there are so many juicy opportunities; ganking is a game of opportunities, not "I will only gank when I have done an arbitrary set of steps"), you will have to not get hurt. If you do, you have to go back to base instead of falling back on some health potions and continuing the jungle. This sets back Alistar, an early game jungler, quite hard.

[ex cathedra]

Like, if you can you want to revive a high DPS source if they're going down; reviving AP carry is not bad for instance, and bruisers can be very sensible too especially if they have key cooldowns still up. In general though, for either revival or copying AD carry is the prime target (provided they're decently farmed and built of course; otherwise defer to whoever your primary source of DPS is and if they are ability-based, wait until they're in danger of dying to copy).

I would generally suggest ulting high sustained DPS targets; for Mages, that's like Cassio, Karthus, Ryze, and Vlad. Ulting burst casters or casters who are highly dependent on their ult for DPS is somewhat wasteful. Pretty much every AD carry fits the bill once they have at least two major items, as well. Vayne is especially strong.

Beyond that, learn a couple of simple, efficient junglers. Amumu, Lee Sin & Fiddle would form a good, varying trio for instance. Obviously nothing wrong with the laundry list of WW, Noc, Udyr, Shyvana, Riven, Olaf, etc.
Fiddles jungle really rubs me the wrong way post-changes. He's as easily counter-jungled as Amumu, if not moreso, and he snowballs backwards way harder. Gangplank, Lee Sin, Udyr, Mundo/Shyvana, and Maokai are all viable jungle choices that portray a variety of jungle roles. I would suggest Udyr and GP for people who are learning to jungle well.


Few good mages for mid. I'd try to get good on them since to carry games, you wanna be mid. So if you can master mages, you can carry like no other. There's...like all the mages are good if played well. Every single one. Except Viktor, but even he's decent. Everybody from Ahri to Zilean (notice how the first and the last champ in the game are both Mages, btw?) is perfectly viable and perfectly capable of carrying the game. Some are easier than others of course; Vladimir is up there for easy, strong, high-presence Mage that scales well.

I would just like to strongly suggest Ryze for the mid and top roles. He's an excellent learning champion, he has high DPS and he's super tanky, and he's useful in pretty much any teamcomp. Point-and-click CC gives him strong synergy with a variety of junglers and his early game burst and poke are both strong. He's at least above average in nearly every single desirable attribute for AP carries, and he's cheap. Also, learn to smartcast if you haven't already.

You can get away with just knowing (knowing how to play, that is. you need to understand every champion in the game to some extent. learn what their abilities do, don't get into a game against a champion that you don't understand) a very small amount of toplaners as long as they cover eachother's weaknesses. Kennen, Rumble, Gangplank, Yorick, Riven, Lee Sin, and Irelia are all very strong, and if you know how to play even half of those you'll likely never need to learn another bruiser.

[EternalMelon]

I am sooooo Sorry Kaizo (If you read this before I can talk to you on Mumble) right after the game started to load my internet crashed, and I was unable to fix it until thirty miniuts ago. Even then, It took me 5 tries to get to this thread (lets hope this one pulls through)

[Volatar]

Woah, you guys have a new thread with 5 pages already. I get behind so very quickly these days...

[lord_khaine]

How is that ever inferior to clearing the entire jungle with a subpar starting item?

Simple, because it isnt a subpar starting item, it gives him a bigger headstart on wiggles, and better health retention.


With vampiric scepter, if you ever gank before boots (and sometimes there are so many juicy opportunities; ganking is a game of opportunities, not "I will only gank when I have done an arbitrary set of steps"), you will have to not get hurt. If you do, you have to go back to base instead of falling back on some health potions and continuing the jungle. This sets back Alistar, an early game jungler, quite hard.

No, because with scepter and E you can just walk back into the jungle, and continue clearing.

With Boots and pots on the other hand, then it seems to me that you are gambling quite a bit on the first gank, where it will be a major setback if it fails.

[Suedars]

I see a lot of people recommending that people don't play support in ranked, or to only play mid/top, since support tend not to be able to carry much, while the solo lanes can swing a game on their own.

How does that work though? Don't you normally get multiple people all fighting over those roles, with very few people actually wanting to play support? It seems like you wouldn't be able to reliably play the solo lane you specialize in, and when you do you'd often force someone else into playing a role they aren't as comfortable with/

[efdf]

Normally, either someone mains support and calls it in the beginning, or it's relegated to last pick.

[Suedars]

Right. I'm asking why maining support over a solo lane gets such a bad rap in solo queue ranked. It seems like almost always being able to play the role you specialize in, and letting your teammates who play top/mid play those lanes rather than forcing a teammate to play a role they aren't fully comfortable with will make up for the fact that you have less potential to swing a game.

[Mephit]

I just had the weirdest Sona game. After 8 minutes, I got bugged and for some reason my powercord kept procing on every single auto attack.:smalleek:

I built into AD Sona and I hit for the upwards of 400 damage, on top of the standard support sona shenanigans, with no cs.

[Suedars]

I just had the weirdest Sona game. After 8 minutes, I got bugged and for some reason my powercord kept procing on every single auto attack.:smalleek:

I built into AD Sona and I hit for the upwards of 400 damage, on top of the standard support sona shenanigans, with no cs.

Wouldn't it be best just to stack Phantom Dancers to get as much AS as possible since you've got the best AD steroid in the game?

[Lix Lorn]

Right. I'm asking why maining support over a solo lane gets such a bad rap in solo queue ranked. It seems like almost always being able to play the role you specialize in, and letting your teammates who play top/mid play those lanes rather than forcing a teammate to play a role they aren't fully comfortable with will make up for the fact that you have less potential to swing a game.
Thing is, if you play support and the other players suck, you lose. If you play carry and they suck, you only probably lose.

[Mtg_player_zach]

Simple, because it isnt a subpar starting item, it gives him a bigger headstart on wiggles, and better health retention.



No, because with scepter and E you can just walk back into the jungle, and continue clearing.

With Boots and pots on the other hand, then it seems to me that you are gambling quite a bit on the first gank, where it will be a major setback if it fails.

Don't get wriggles, get sheen. More mana, and more damage. If you want you could get a madred's razor that you could later build into a bloodrazor. But I would only do that if you think they might buy a lot of health in their builds.

Items to consider starting with would include: Boots +3, Boots +2/+1, Regrowth pendant +1, Longsword +1. I would never start with a vamp scepter on Cow.

Start with pulverize. It's better.

Also, I would recommend reading this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12409551&postcount=575

[Suedars]

Thing is, if you play support and the other players suck, you lose. If you play carry and they suck, you only probably lose.

But what happens when you play carry and your teammate who also wanted carry now has to support, sucks, and maybe loses the game for you? Or when you can't get carry, have to play support, and lose?

Obviously if you're guaranteed to get solo mid every game and are always matched with a jungler, solo top, ad bot, and support, playing that solo mid is the right choice. But when you're randomly paired up with people regardless of what roles everyone plays, isn't being yet another player who mains the two most commonly played roles just bad for your prospects?

[Lix Lorn]

Oh, I totally agree people SHOULD play supports. I'm just saying one reason people don't want to.

[Suedars]

Yeah, I understand the mentality that makes people want to play solo lanes in solo queue. I'm just wondering if it actually is the best way to raise your elo/if maining support is as painful as it's made out to be.

Plus the whole thing seems to be reminiscent of the elo hell "My elo is actually 300 points above what it is, I just lose every game because of my teammates" mentality.

[Winthur]

^Zach's post above me is extremely true.

Simple, because it isnt a subpar starting item, it gives him a bigger headstart on wiggles, and better health retention.
Wriggles is a subpar item choice on Alistar. Something Alistar just doesn't need.


With Boots and pots on the other hand, then it seems to me that you are gambling quite a bit on the first gank, where it will be a major setback if it fails.

No - Alistar ganks are very strong. If I get a kill or an assist, I come back to base with enough gold to get at least some more pots for more ganks, or maybe Boots of Mobility or half a Philosopher Stone. If I don't get a kill, my lane is probably still at a huge advantage, I still have mobility (through boots) for more ganks and I have health pots to roam the map. Vampiric Scepter doesn't do a lot in terms of health gain - 3 health pots are gonna have you in action faster. If you drop low after a gank, like, 60 HP, going back to the jungle with just a vampiric scepter and your heal is very risky, plus it forces you to stay at your creeps and heal up, whereas with health pots you can continue roaming while healing up in between lanes. Alistar is a roamer first and foremost.

[Eldariel]

I would generally suggest ulting high sustained DPS targets; for Mages, that's like Cassio, Karthus, Ryze, and Vlad. Ulting burst casters or casters who are highly dependent on their ult for DPS is somewhat wasteful. Pretty much every AD carry fits the bill once they have at least two major items, as well. Vayne is especially strong.

For Mages, that's only true if you're reviving them; for the Revenant-damage you want an AD.


Fiddles jungle really rubs me the wrong way post-changes. He's as easily counter-jungled as Amumu, if not moreso, and he snowballs backwards way harder. Gangplank, Lee Sin, Udyr, Mundo/Shyvana, and Maokai are all viable jungle choices that portray a variety of jungle roles. I would suggest Udyr and GP for people who are learning to jungle well.

There are tons upon tons of good options. Don't underestimate Fiddle tho; it's incredibly easy to get fed off 1200s-1400s (your placement match opponents) with decent Fiddle-play, he duels most junglers (any without hard CC pre-6) quite well early on and he is a very strong jungler to actually carry games with since his snowballing is quite something.


I would just like to strongly suggest Ryze for the mid and top roles. He's an excellent learning champion, he has high DPS and he's super tanky, and he's useful in pretty much any teamcomp. Point-and-click CC gives him strong synergy with a variety of junglers and his early game burst and poke are both strong. He's at least above average in nearly every single desirable attribute for AP carries, and he's cheap. Also, learn to smartcast if you haven't already.

My only prob with Ryze for early carrying is that his biggest weakness is his early laning, which is when you get fed against 1200s-1400s. He's more of a midgame bloomer with decent early and insanely strong lategame but I'd rather look at e.g. Leblanc, Cassiopeia or Ahri for supereasy lane kills to initiate quick, brutal snowball far as carrying goes.

[efdf]

Yeah, I understand the mentality that makes people want to play solo lanes in solo queue. I'm just wondering if it actually is the best way to raise your elo/if maining support is as painful as it's made out to be.

Plus the whole thing seems to be reminiscent of the elo hell "My elo is actually 300 points above what it is, I just lose every game because of my teammates" mentality.

Yeah, it pretty much only makes sense as a ranked strategy if you build it off the premise that you're much better than your teammates. If you believe that your teammates are equally as good at solo laning as you are, but you are a better support than they are it is of course better to play a support. But no one ever believes their teammates are as good at solo laning as they are. This is really stupid, especially when everyone in the game is thinking the exact same thing.

But for new ranked players, it is easily possible that they will be much better players than the people they are initially matched with and because placement matches have so much impact the advice to solo lane is valid.

Maining support is also a valid way to raise Elo, especially if you pick characters that are extremely dependent on outplaying the opponent and if they do set up easy kills (Blitzcrank, Alistar). It's just frustrating because you're relying on your botlane partner to follow up.

[toasty]

Yeah, I understand the mentality that makes people want to play solo lanes in solo queue. I'm just wondering if it actually is the best way to raise your elo/if maining support is as painful as it's made out to be.

I'd say that duo laning in general is very... prone to frustration. Every other role spends a significant period of the game doing whatever they want to do by themselves. Both Support and AD are forced to work with someone. I've noticed that since Support+AD has become the norm most players will no longer FP AD (they never picked support first, except when Soraka was stupid good).


Plus the whole thing seems to be reminiscent of the elo hell "My elo is actually 300 points above what it is, I just lose every game because of my teammates" mentality.

In general, LoL solo queue is a big crapshot filled with lots of idiots. I play Solo Top becuase I'm best at solo top, not because its good for carrying people. I play support all the time, actually. My 3rd most played champion is Sona. But I'm an exception, it seems. There are few support mains at any elo. I think PGB and Nhat are pretty much the only people that willingly play Support at High Elo. And PGB doesn't even play that much anymore. Solo queue is... in all honesty a plague upon LoL and I think that Riot needs to remove Solo Queue ranked from the game. In fact, if Riot removed Solo Queue period that'd be amazing. It'd also be terrible, but it would solve a lot of problems that I've experienced in LoL that I never experienced in DotA (becasue I only played In-houses in DotA).

[Dogmantra]

Yeah, I understand the mentality that makes people want to play solo lanes in solo queue. I'm just wondering if it actually is the best way to raise your elo/if maining support is as painful as it's made out to be.

Yeah, I don't understand why people take solos if they want to carry games below where they should be. Jungle is the ultimate carry for games because you can help all your team mates all game, and screw over all your opponents all game. Then one of the two botlaners is next, support in a typical carry/support lane, 'cause you can make up for suckage on the part of your carry and screw over two opponents. Mid's probably the worst lane to take unless you're either counterpicking (Pantheon/Talon vs Morgana for instance) or going to get incredibly fed (i.e. LeBlanc)

EDIT: of course this didn't stop me losing 40 ELO today playing midlaners. Go go being on a Viktomir kick.

[toasty]

Yeah, I don't understand why people take solos if they want to carry games below where they should be. Jungle is the ultimate carry for games because you can help all your team mates all game, and screw over all your opponents all game. Then one of the two botlaners is next, support in a typical carry/support lane, 'cause you can make up for suckage on the part of your carry and screw over two opponents. Mid's probably the worst lane to take unless you're either counterpicking (Pantheon/Talon vs Morgana for instance) or going to get incredibly fed (i.e. LeBlanc)

EDIT: of course this didn't stop me losing 40 ELO today playing midlaners. Go go being on a Viktomir kick.

The only junglers that cna win games are those that are aggressive counterjunglers or godlike gankers. Counterjungling is team reliant, so let's discount that.

The best ganking junglers are:
Nocturne, who actually kinda sucks
Shaco, who is permabanned
GP, who also, actually sucks in the jungle
Alistair and Rammus, and Moakai who no one play (cuz no one plays tanks. Lol).

That leaves us with... Lee Sin. Who has a high skill cap.

Playing AD sucks because you will always have a Soraka who takes E at level one and doesn't tell you and never wards because she needs her rylais... so you lose. :smalltongue:

Solo Lanes are the best because you are alone, its the closest thing you can get to playing the game by yourself.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Two ranked games today, and my partner and I are the only ones that don't die a million times.

4/1/1 as jungleplank, and 4/3/8 as Supportdalee.

Everyone else died. Lots. How on earth do you keep that from happening?

[Suedars]

Playing AD sucks because you will always have a Soraka who takes E at level one and doesn't tell you and never wards because she needs her rylais... so you lose. :smalltongue:

Doesn't this buy into the elo hell mentality of you being awesome and everyone you play with sucking though? Yeah, your support might not know how to itemize, but you're probably making mistakes on a similar scale if you're at their elo.

[Mephit]

I just had the weirdest Sona game. After 8 minutes, I got bugged and for some reason my powercord kept procing on every single auto attack.:smalleek:

I built into AD Sona and I hit for the upwards of 400 damage, on top of the standard support sona shenanigans, with no cs.

[Chumbaniya]

The only junglers that cna win games are those that are aggressive counterjunglers or godlike gankers. Counterjungling is team reliant, so let's discount that.

The best ganking junglers are:
Nocturne, who actually kinda sucks
Shaco, who is permabanned
GP, who also, actually sucks in the jungle
Alistair and Rammus, and Moakai who no one play (cuz no one plays tanks. Lol).

That leaves us with... Lee Sin. Who has a high skill cap.

Playing AD sucks because you will always have a Soraka who takes E at level one and doesn't tell you and never wards because she needs her rylais... so you lose. :smalltongue:

Solo Lanes are the best because you are alone, its the closest thing you can get to playing the game by yourself.

I don't think of GP as a particularly good ganker. He has the fairly small slow (which takes time to stack up, so they've got a headstart even if you manage to get full stacks), no hard CC, moderate damage without particularly good burst, and a moderate speed increase. Speed increases are good, but they are far, far worse than slows unless the enemy is absolutely miles from their own tower.

Compared to Alistar, Rammus and Maokai (and I don't know why you think people wouldn't play them - I doubt that many people, after playing enough games, constantly think "I MUST BE THE DAMAGES GUY") GP's ganks aren't very good. Besides, the best builds for GP and Lee Sin are pretty tanky anyway.

[Dogmantra]

Man, getting moaned at in solo queue is oddly fun, and not in a masochistic way either. My favourite part is assuming that only designated support characters can ever buy wards.

[XiaoTie]

Man, getting moaned at in solo queue is oddly fun, and not in a masochistic way either. My favourite part is assuming that only designated support characters can ever buy wards.

I feel your pain. That happened to me once in a game that was going wrong for a few reasons. I was chosen as the scapegoat because of that.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, I don't understand why people take solos if they want to carry games below where they should be. Jungle is the ultimate carry for games because you can help all your team mates all game, and screw over all your opponents all game. Then one of the two botlaners is next, support in a typical carry/support lane, 'cause you can make up for suckage on the part of your carry and screw over two opponents. Mid's probably the worst lane to take unless you're either counterpicking (Pantheon/Talon vs Morgana for instance) or going to get incredibly fed (i.e. LeBlanc)


I don't really necessarily agree. Jungle...can help all lanes, yes, but only if that lane is good enough that you can 3v2 them/the lane doesn't die every time you try to gank. It's good in theory but unless you have a really snowbally jungler it just doesn't pan out unless at least some of your lanes do decently. I lost a game where I've been 7/0/8 with Amumu when playing...I think my US account? Jungle doesn't dominate any single enemy naturally so even if you do well, you might be facing 3 really strong laners.

The thing about playing a midlane is that if you do well, you can not only propel yourself up but also destroy your lane opponent. This means you have one lane winning no matter what. Jungler might have to carry 3 lanes, solo mid has to, at worst, carry two (once you get strong enough you naturally dominate enemy's jungle since the whole jungle is readily accessible from mid).


Botlane carrying outside duo queue is painful early on since your win percentage will be heavily decreased by the number of games where you have a useless botlane companion or someone like Kayle against a Soraka or something similarly stupid (and the Kayle will fail that one ultimate that could've actually gotten you a kill against a Soraka-lane).

Bot also needs to get further into the game to start truly destroying people; I have no trouble killing with mages without any items but AD isn't going to work before you at least get an AD.


Also, mid has just as easy an access to bot and top as jungle, and an easy access to enemy jungle too. Since midlane is won already by default (the assumption of "I can carry" is that you're better enough than your peers that you will win your lane) it's very easy to keep the other two lanes somehow afloat, snowball and dominate.

Not to mention, many midlaners have very high damage and good AOE making them good for taking out tons of people earlier in the game (obviously ADs shine once you get the IE/PD/LW setup but that takes a while; and generally mages can still burst ADs down at that point).


Doesn't this buy into the elo hell mentality of you being awesome and everyone you play with sucking though? Yeah, your support might not know how to itemize, but you're probably making mistakes on a similar scale if you're at their elo.

There's a difference between thinking you're better and knowing you're better though; when I started playing Ranked again for Season 2, I knew I was good enough to carry basically all the games I had to play. Same with the US account; just 'cause my account starts at 1200 doesn't make me 1200.

I have verified before that my skill level is above that of a 1200, so I can enter the games with the knowledge that I am most likely the best player on my team, the best player in the game, and thus plan accordingly. Arrogant or not, it's the truth in vast majority of the cases (aside from running into some peer on a smurf or something).

The assumption isn't that everybody you play with sucks but rather that everybody you play with might suck and thus relying on any one piece of the team is liable to losing you the game since that particular piece might be defective. As such, if you can just take all the strings in your hand and weave it into a won game yourself, do that and you will remove any risks of losing.

[Lix Lorn]

Man, getting moaned at in solo queue is oddly fun, and not in a masochistic way either. My favourite part is assuming that only designated support characters can ever buy wards.
Even I do better than that and I don't ranked!
(warded baron earlier as Fiora)

[Dogmantra]

I don't really necessarily agree.
Hmm, true enough points on the jungler. I suppose it really depends who you're jungling against. Talon or whatever can really ruin everyone's day whereas Amumu can make everyone's day just a teeny bit worse. (The previous sentence being yet another halfhearted attempt to make Jungle Talon a thing)
EDIT: Oh yeah I was gonna point out that basically in my experience duolaning has won me many more games than soloing (even though I think I am probably better at solo lanes and I certainly like them more) because if I'm good enough, I can keep my pal from doing badly, regardless of if I'm carry, support, or assuming draft pick ever gets interesting, some other role. God I'm so jaded time to play nothing but Treeline.


Even I do better than that and I don't ranked!
(warded baron earlier as Fiora)
Dang, I barely even ward y'know? It just gets on my nerves how like 50% of wards people buy at my level are covered by common sense, good map awareness and knowing how to use Flash well, and I'm confident enough to risk that 75 gold against my death, if you're not you can go ahead and buy your own wards and/or Wriggle's.

[fred dref]

Maining support is also a valid way to raise Elo, especially if you pick characters that are extremely dependent on outplaying the opponent and if they do set up easy kills (Blitzcrank, Alistar). It's just frustrating because you're relying on your botlane partner to follow up.

TFT being an example of a GitP/Mumble fellow who is currently ranked Gold by maining support+Amumu.

[Eldariel]

Hmm, true enough points on the jungler. I suppose it really depends who you're jungling against. Talon or whatever can really ruin everyone's day whereas Amumu can make everyone's day just a teeny bit worse. (The previous sentence being yet another halfhearted attempt to make Jungle Talon a thing)
EDIT: Oh yeah I was gonna point out that basically in my experience duolaning has won me many more games than soloing (even though I think I am probably better at solo lanes and I certainly like them more) because if I'm good enough, I can keep my pal from doing badly, regardless of if I'm carry, support, or assuming draft pick ever gets interesting, some other role. God I'm so jaded time to play nothing but Treeline.

Well. All I can say is my winrate with duo bot has been abysmal compared to my winrate with mid when playing in 1600-. In duo bot, I distinctly recall a game I've already mentioned; enemy Soraka/Graves against me playing Sivir/Kayle.

Killing was really hard and Kayle wasn't the sharpest cookie in the bucket so she kept getting picked off in ganks, and simply by Graves burst. I somehow manage against the 7 min BFS by basically baiting and Spell Shielding all Buckshots (and even one Collateral Damage) and landing Qs but with Soraka, I can't kill without extra help from my lane partner who was too busy trying to heal us as Kayle to really do anything.

Finally get an opening to kill Graves as Kayle hits 6 and Soraka leaves lane; easy towerdive. I tell Kayle "Ult as I go in!"; Kayle says "Ok". I go for the kill. Then I die 'cause I was never ulted in the ~2 seconds I spent under the tower killing Graves so I was tanking Graves and the tower. She tells me a bit later "not enough mana". Guess why? 'cause she healed before the dive. That game other lanes lose and obviously, barely keeping up with Graves ('cause I still out-cs him) I'm in no position to carry and we lose the game handily. If I was AP mid, none of that woulda mattered; there's no risk of a duolane partner making me unable to kill my lane opponent and while bot woulda failed anyways, I could've probably snowballed harder, killed bot and ended up dominating.

I've also had games where I've been like 7-3-7 on AD and completely destroyed bot (in spite of jungle ganks) but been unable to carry the other two lanes since we're losing too early and I don't quite have the time to get the IE/Zeal/Green Pot to kill people into play (or LW in that one game where enemy toplane and jungle - I recall Lee and Malphite - snowballed and had too much armor for me to kill reasonably).

[Nadevoc]

I see a lot of people recommending that people don't play support in ranked, or to only play mid/top, since support tend not to be able to carry much, while the solo lanes can swing a game on their own.

How does that work though? Don't you normally get multiple people all fighting over those roles, with very few people actually wanting to play support? It seems like you wouldn't be able to reliably play the solo lane you specialize in, and when you do you'd often force someone else into playing a role they aren't as comfortable with/

Honestly, I think it has to do with how well you can transition roles. You WON'T always get the role you want. However, I think it's easier to transition TO support than FROM it.

Does a really good support make a difference? Absolutely! That said, the basics to be a not-terrible support are easier to handle than other roles. I main support. Which means, among other things, I'm terrible at last hitting. I've ingrained into myself a mindset that it's better for me to die than pretty much any other member of my team. When I transition roles, these things work against me. Very hard. Whereas someone who mains mid or AD carry switches to support, they just don't last-hit and follow their AD around... they're not nearly as helpful as a really good support, but they're not botching a carry position. Even if they just follow a carry around and mash their heal when fights come around, they're helping.

[PEACH]

As for the jungler discussion:

Carrying with Jungle Skarner is really easy if you're above average for the game. He can counterjungle and gank well enough to do so even without his team, and as long as you play him very aggressively in games you are ahead in (e.g. take every buff as it spawns, make your team make plays constantly), you can easily get strong enough to where counterjungling is safe even without a great team, since his shield, healing, speed, and AoE CC are enough to escape or even fight multiple lower level foes. Other junglers (Lee Sin, Udyr, Maokai, maybe Shyv) can do similar things with some differences in ganking/counterjungling ability. The thing is that while every lane can still (mostly) get EXP even if you kick their ass, you can completely shut down a lot of junglers ability to gank, clear, and gain EXP with strong counters. Jungling is, if not the most impactful spot, at least the easiest spot to directly hurt your mirror on the enemy team, and also the easiest to judge your play if you want to improve (hint: If the enemy jungler gets more buffs from their side of the jungle than you do, you aren't crushing them enough).

[Adumbration]

As someone who mains support in ranked, there's another way to carry as support. 1) Gauge lane strength. Not just the respective champions, but the level of skill. Is your carry an idiot? If yes, 2a) Save his ass repeatedly and carry teamfights. If not, 2b) Make plays in the lane. Example: when the jungler tells you he's coming a'ganking, bait. You wouldn't believe how often people get baited by simple bad positioning and completely disregard a jungler coming, even if they have it warded.

I've won a lot of games with either tactic. In the end, even if your lane partner isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, so long as he can CS he can remain relevant even in the face of superior opponents.

[Neoseanster]

I see a lot of people recommending that people don't play support in ranked, or to only play mid/top, since support tend not to be able to carry much, while the solo lanes can swing a game on their own.

How does that work though? Don't you normally get multiple people all fighting over those roles, with very few people actually wanting to play support? It seems like you wouldn't be able to reliably play the solo lane you specialize in, and when you do you'd often force someone else into playing a role they aren't as comfortable with/

You can carry a game as a support. It's not really as obvious when you do, because you won't be the one with a fantastic number of kills to show for it, but a clutch heal or shield or what have you at the right time can easily turn the tide of an otherwise lost fight, and enough of those at the right times will turn a game around. If your team is just that bad, sure, you won't make a difference anyway, but even the most skilled Tryndamere or Jax or what have you can't really win a 1v5, either. It won't cut it if you had too great of a skill gap between the two teams, but still.

In season 1, I got to ~1400s playing just random champions, then up to the low 1700s mostly playing Janna and jungle Fiddlesticks. Season 2 was much the same, only I've never had as much luck with Fiddlesticks after the jungle rework, so it's been mostly Janna with a few other random champions.

I had a funny game earlier today. Our AD player wanted to see their AD before picking one himself, so he first picked Janna for me, and we were going to swap. Then, uh, we forgot to swap, but still had our normal runes. So I ended up playing Corki with full armor/GP/5/CDR runes and 9/0/21 masteries, and he ended up playing Janna with full AD runes.

We got first blood vs Graves and Soraka when they botched up a level 1 brawl at the tribush... everyone got low and backed off, then Soraka tried to recall still inside the bush, Janna Q'd her and I went it with a Q and autoattack to finish her. We ended up struggling in lane anyway, even with a free bonus Doran's Blade for me, but by late game won by virtue of team composition. They had Nidalee top (beat our WW, pushed down both outer and inner towers at top pretty early), Vladimir mid (lost to Ahri), Tryndamere jungle (managed a few successful ganks, while our Amumu never really ganked).

So, for their entire team, the only CC at their disposal was... Soraka's silence, the slow on Graves' smoke screen, the slow on Vladimir's pool, and the slow on Tryndamere's shout. That is to say, "not a lot." I got a few kills in team fights and pulled ahead of Graves again in farm, and we turned it around quite handily by mid/late game. By the end-end I had about 5.2k gold over Graves.

[Ziren]

At a medium ELO (between 1200 and 1400 I'd say), playing support or jungle seems to be the best role to advance up the ranks quickly - because those are the two roles that most players have the least experience with.

I can't even count the times where I played a ranked and my jungler died to the lizard or my support not buying any wards at all...

[SlyGuyMcFly]

As someone who mains support in ranked, there's another way to carry as support. 1) Gauge lane strength. Not just the respective champions, but the level of skill. Is your carry an idiot? If yes, 2a) Save his ass repeatedly and carry teamfights. If not, 2b) Make plays in the lane. Example: when the jungler tells you he's coming a'ganking, bait. You wouldn't believe how often people get baited by simple bad positioning and completely disregard a jungler coming, even if they have it warded.

I've won a lot of games with either tactic. In the end, even if your lane partner isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, so long as he can CS he can remain relevant even in the face of superior opponents.

This is basically every single Janna game I've ever played.

[lord_khaine]

Don't get wriggles, get sheen. More mana, and more damage. If you want you could get a madred's razor that you could later build into a bloodrazor. But I would only do that if you think they might buy a lot of health in their builds.


Actualy, i used to do that, but i then moved over to wiggles, its more armor, better jungling and free wards.


Items to consider starting with would include: Boots +3, Boots +2/+1, Regrowth pendant +1, Longsword +1. I would never start with a vamp scepter on Cow.

So far the vamp scepter is the start that i have found out to work best because of the substain it gives when blue runs off, though i guess Longsword might be worth considering there.


Start with pulverize. It's better.

Cant see why thats the case, i can just about get 2 E's off during the blue fight, and that would mean i would only be able to get 1 pulverize.
The damage from this is equal.


Also, I would recommend reading this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=575

You seems to be missing a point, im not asking for jungling advice with Alistar, im currently doing so well with him in that role, that i feel comfortable giving advice on that subject.

So, i have allready read that post, and i think you have gotten a lot of things in it wrong.


^Zach's post above me is extremely true.

You mean you finaly found someone to agree with you.


Wriggles is a subpar item choice on Alistar. Something Alistar just doesn't need.

Oh yeah, of you are right, because no jungler needs armor, AD, faster jungling, better health retention or free wards...


No - Alistar ganks are very strong. If I get a kill or an assist, I come back to base with enough gold to get at least some more pots for more ganks, or maybe Boots of Mobility or half a Philosopher Stone. If I don't get a kill, my lane is probably still at a huge advantage, I still have mobility (through boots) for more ganks and I have health pots to roam the map. Vampiric Scepter doesn't do a lot in terms of health gain - 3 health pots are gonna have you in action faster. If you drop low after a gank, like, 60 HP, going back to the jungle with just a vampiric scepter and your heal is very risky, plus it forces you to stay at your creeps and heal up, whereas with health pots you can continue roaming while healing up in between lanes. Alistar is a roamer first and foremost.

He isnt that strong of a ganker, and it sounds a lot like you are doing it without red, if you doing level 2 ganks.

And at the same time, it sounds a lot like you are throwing a lot of gold away on pots and a chance of a early game advantage, instead of building something usefull.

And scepter on its own might not do so much, but it does make a difference, and it accelerates me towards wiggles.
Also, 60 is a crazy low number, and i do think anyone who drops that low should withdraw to base imidiatly before they run the risk of meeting the enemy jungler or midt.
For a more realistic level of health after a gank, like 30-60%, then E and a scepter is more than enough for me to walk back into the jungle, and heal up while fighting the respawned camps.

Alistar is what he wants to be, and if you can only see him as a roamer, then its because you are a slave to the meta.

[fred dref]

Cant see why thats the case, i can just about get 2 E's off during the blue fight, and that would mean i would only be able to get 1 pulverize. The damage from this is equal.

That is not actually true. Starting Q is done because you deal more damage.


You seems to be missing a point, im not asking for jungling advice with Alistar, im currently doing so well with him in that role, that i feel comfortable giving advice on that subject.

And other people feel that your advise is not optimal, and are offering their opinions.


You mean you finaly found someone to agree with you.

Have you?


He isnt that strong of a ganker, and it sounds a lot like you are doing it without red, if you doing level 2 ganks.

Or one could, you know, start Red? I hear it's a thing people do when they want to gank at level 2. Also, if you can get in position Alistar's level 2 ganks will force summoners, and stands of good chance of getting a kill regardless.


And scepter on its own might not do so much, but it does make a difference, and it accelerates me towards wiggles.

You are going to build boots at some point, that is a given. Why not build boots at a time when few others have them, speeding up the jungle clear (faster than Vamp Scepter, for sure) and making ganking easier.


Alistar is what he wants to be, and if you can only see him as a roamer, then its because you are a slave to the meta.

A significant problem with playing Alistar as a farming jungler is that others farm it faster and benefit more from the farm. Alistar is massively strong on the basis of his ult, Q and W, all of which function more or less without any items. Because they function independently of items, they do not scale very much with farm. Compare to a character like Skarner who scales with AD and AP on abilities, resists on his shield, attack speed for CDR, etc. Not only does he need items, but he benefits from them. Why not farm with him?

[Anonomuss]

I just had a really awesome game.


http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx254/Anonomussable/FizzOP.jpg

The game opened pretty standard for Fizz v Heimer, with him pushing really hard, and poking. I couldn't do anything but pounce on him. And pounce on him again and again. I usually only escaped with a bit of life, but escape I did.

The game ended after I 3v1'd a low ashe and heimer, and a full health pantheon. My first proper triple kill. Escaped with 100> life

Got called OP for the first time ever. Felt good :smallsmile:

[ex cathedra]

Cant see why thats the case, i can just about get 2 E's off during the blue fight, and that would mean i would only be able to get 1 pulverize.
The damage from this is equal.
I like how this is completely false.

So, i have allready read that post, and i think you have gotten a lot of things in it wrong.
What a crazy random happenstance, I'm getting that feeling right now.


Oh yeah, of you are right, because no jungler needs armor, AD, faster jungling, better health retention or free wards.
Well, Udyr, Mundo, Maokai, Amumu, Lee Sin, Sejuani, Rammus, and Singed don't need Wriggles, and so I don't see why Alistar would.


He isnt that strong of a ganker, and it sounds a lot like you are doing it without red, if you doing level 2 ganks.
He is an absurdly strong ganker, and it sounds a lot like you aren't timing or positioning ganks correctly. Some of the best CC in the game coupled with high base stats and damage doesn't provide strong ganking potential?


And at the same time, it sounds a lot like you are throwing a lot of gold away on pots and a chance of a early game advantage, instead of building something usefull.
Potions are a strong use of gold. Boots+3/4 is likely the single most common starting item set in the game for a reason.


Alistar is what he wants to be, and if you can only see him as a roamer, then its because you are a slave to the meta.
Isn't it fair to suggest that you might be a slave to your own preconceptions?

[Eldariel]

Well, Udyr, Mundo, Maokai, Amumu, Lee Sin, Sejuani, Rammus, and Singed don't need Wriggles, and so I don't see why Alistar would.

But it's really silly to not build Wriggle's on Lee since you want Wards to jump to anyways :smalltongue:

[Dogmantra]

But it's really silly to not build Wriggle's on Lee since you want Wards to jump to anyways :smalltongue:

Someone has clearly never played Triple Doran's Phage Lee Sin.

The best kind of Lee Sin.

[PersonMan]

But it's really silly to not build Wriggle's on Lee since you want Wards to jump to anyways :smalltongue:

Silly, that's what Teemo is for! Oh, and his shrooms, but eh. Wardle ftw!

[Winthur]

You mean you finaly found someone to agree with you.
Yes - neither me or Zach ever jungle. We have no idea what we are talking about and we hoped you wouldn't notice. Oh well.




Oh yeah, of you are right, because no jungler needs armor, AD, faster jungling, better health retention or free wards...

Wriggles doesn't contribute that much to your jungle speed on this particular champion. And yeah, Fiddlesticks, for instance, doesn't need Wriggles. Neither does jungle Rumble or Rammus, or even strong junglers like Lee Sin or Warwick. Not to mention Udyr, Amumu, Maokai, Jarvan, Skarner, and a whole other bunch of people I don't recall right now.



He isnt that strong of a ganker, and it sounds a lot like you are doing it without red, if you doing level 2 ganks.

Excusez-moi? From level 1, he has a massive AoE stun, and from level 2, he has a displacement. If at level 2 that doesn't give your laner enough time to finish somebody off, then not even Pantheon level 2 ganks would have been able to help. Also, with Alistar, it's not that uncommon for me to start at my red. Without vamp scepter, too.


And at the same time, it sounds a lot like you are throwing a lot of gold away on pots and a chance of a early game advantage, instead of building something usefull.
Wriggles doesn't constitute as something useful on this champion when compared to Sheen (more burst damage in ganks and skirmishes!), gold/10 items (a way to give yourself gold and useful stats while still primarily roaming!). It just lets you clear camps and sustain. Except you already can do both rather well.


For a more realistic level of health after a gank, like 30-60%, then E and a scepter is more than enough for me to walk back into the jungle, and heal up while fighting the respawned camps.
After a gank a ton of stuff can happen. You can get counterganked and drop really low as a result. If any of those things happen you are going to be forced to idle-heal instead of continuing roaming. Not to mention that junglers who start with Vampiric Scepter and never do anything outside of their jungle until after they've gotten red and/or boots are much more predictable, and they're gonna miss many more opportunities for ganks. If you don't gank a top lane Nidalee with Alistar when she's level 1-2, you probably won't be able to ever kill her once she reaches level 6. Besides, the entire point of pots is that after a gank you can immediately go for another one if you choose to do so, instead of idling at the minion camps.


Alistar is what he wants to be, and if you can only see him as a roamer, then its because you are a slave to the meta.
No, it's because I see what are his strengths and weaknesses. His jungle clear is fine and he can farm the jungle rather well at least early on. Then again, Lee Sin and Rammus also have a speedy jungle clear, but their primary purpose is to gank lanes due to how their kits work.

You are proposing that a jungler who unlocks his CC early should hold back on it instead of utilizing it from the start? With Alistar you can force someone to a stand still for like 3 seconds or even more if you couple it with someone who has CC - that's like a guaranteed kill at early levels where enemies are squishy. All you need to do is find an opening, punt someone out of their safe zone, walk up to them and Pulverize. That's very simple and very efficient.

Early ganks by nature are going to be stronger than late ganks if only because a jungler tends to achieve level 2 earlier than solo lanes and on most champions it's enough to perform combos.

And also, if you get a kill in an early gank (and that's not a "gamble", that happens often and on Alistar, farming isn't that much better of an option), you get to deny the enemy laner a ton of gold and experience because you will push the lane along with your laner while getting some XP from it yourself. Not to mention the champion slain gold. If not, you force somebody out of lane.

I'm still waiting for a substantial idea that would make Vampiric Scepter sustained clear more viable than the traditional early ganker Alistar.

[Eldariel]

Someone has clearly never played Triple Doran's Phage Lee Sin.

The best kind of Lee Sin.

I just want the free wards; they'll pay themselves back eventually :smalltongue:

Unrelated, damn Karthus. I never can figure out what to build on him since he synergises so well with every single AP item in the game. It's like:
Rod of Ages: He's mana hungry as balls.
Archangel's Staff: See above.
Zhonya's Hourglass: He has his E which is godlike with this; best non-Ulti Zhonya in the game by far.
Abyssal Scepter: Flat MR Reduction on W goes well with MR Reduction aura.
Haunting Guise: See above.
Will of the Ancients: Some of the highest sustained magic damage in the game.
Rylai's Crystal Scepter: No CD AOE abilities that have to be landed as skillshots? Yeah, this is kinda good.
Voidstaff: You have global effin' damage and a ton of sustained damage, some penetration would be nice

OK so DFG and Morello's are less impressive on him but still (CDR for the ult isn't bad tho). It's like walking into a buffet and only getting a maximum of 6 items when you kinda just want them all ._.

[Silverraptor]

I just want the free wards; they'll pay themselves back eventually :smalltongue:

Unrelated, damn Karthus. I never can figure out what to build on him since he synergises so well with every single AP item in the game. It's like:
Rod of Ages: He's mana hungry as balls.
Archangel's Staff: See above.
Zhonya's Hourglass: He has his E which is godlike with this; best non-Ulti Zhonya in the game by far.
Abyssal Scepter: Flat MR Reduction on W goes well with MR Reduction aura.
Haunting Guise: See above.
Will of the Ancients: Some of the highest sustained magic damage in the game.
Rylai's Crystal Scepter: No CD AOE abilities that have to be landed as skillshots? Yeah, this is kinda good.
Voidstaff: You have global effin' damage and a ton of sustained damage, some penetration would be nice

OK so DFG and Morello's are less impressive on him but still (CDR for the ult isn't bad tho). It's like walking into a buffet and only getting a maximum of 6 items when you kinda just want them all ._.

You're missing... Deathcap. The one single most important item on every AP ever!

[Eldariel]

You're missing... Deathcap. The one single most important item on every AP ever!

Kinda given; rest are all awesome OPTIONS tho.

[Zen Master]

So um ... I bought Nidalee. Yet another addition to my arsenal of various supports.

She has way too much of everything for me to keep in my mind at once. Tho I'm fairly sure it can't be that much harder than playing a druid in WoW. Which I did, and well.

So ... how does one play Nidalee?

[Winthur]

So um ... I bought Nidalee. Yet another addition to my arsenal of various supports.

She has way too much of everything for me to keep in my mind at once. Tho I'm fairly sure it can't be that much harder than playing a druid in WoW. Which I did, and well.

So ... how does one play Nidalee?

She is not much of a bot lane support although you can run her bot for the heal+AS+traps, but she's not really that efficient. As a top lane though she is versatile. You can run her as a typical tanky DPS with Triforce or Atmogs and she is gonna win a lot of lanes - just harass a lot with her ranged autoattack and pounce on people for massive damage. She's pretty straightforward to play as an AD. For AP, you are a poking machine that doesn't fit into every teamcomp and falls off late game. Her poke is ridiculously strong this way and her laning phase is still pretty good. You are also fairly ungankable. Standard build for AD is something like Wriggles into Triforce, for AP - double Dorans into Deathcap, although a while ago Nidalee had some of her stuff changed around so I am not sure if Rod of Ages isn't a better choice than Dorans.

[Arbitrarity]

So um ... I bought Nidalee. Yet another addition to my arsenal of various supports.

She has way too much of everything for me to keep in my mind at once. Tho I'm fairly sure it can't be that much harder than playing a druid in WoW. Which I did, and well.

So ... how does one play Nidalee?

Go top lane, counter almost everything, have armor pen/ad runes. Run in and out of brush for passive MS. Farm and poke with autoattacks. Boots start is fairly strong. Make sure to have a point in every skill by 4. Trap bushes and approaches, not where creeps go. You can start with traps for early map vision and control.
Heal either for getting low, or for sustained autoattack poke. Spear shouldn't really be used in lane, except maybe to snag a last hit if you have too much mana.
Cougar is strong, but swipe/takedown can be pretty much used as the same thing; more burst damage (yes, takedown scales with missing enemy health, and resets AA timer, but you don't think about that much). Pounce in, swipe takedown is a lot of burst, and you can leave easily with pounce again. Farm with Pounce/Swipe and autos as necessary, figure out how much damage you need to do first to instagib the back wave. Learn what walls you can pounce over. Split push with Primal Surge attack speed buff, or use map mobility to help with objectives, as usual. Nidalee is VERY strong around 6 and 11, because Cougar has insane base damages. You can push and counterjungle pretty safely.

Choose what to build midgame. AP has very strong poke and healing (build ROA early, possibly sheen, hat, void staff), but makes heavy use of blue. Tanky AD is stronger in close combat, immensely frustrating to fight, slightly stronger in lane (can't be bursted, is Nidalee). Tanky AD is wriggles into atmogs or trinity.
Consider Teleport, Flash, Ignite, and perhaps Ghost.

[Math_Mage]

Re: supports and the carrying of games thereby, there's only an argument to be made against supporting if you are ACTUALLY in something resembling Elo Hell where you're simply miles better than anyone else. You CAN carry with support (I did), but it's just EASIER to go mid, get fed off your opponent's incompetence, and just romp all over the map...or go jungle, get fed off incompetent pushed unwarded lanes, and just romp all over the map. It's hard to romp all over the map as a support, even if we account for vicarious romping via your AD carry.

If your Elo is fairly appropriate to your skill level, and you're NOT miles better than everyone else, then there's no particular bias towards or against any of the roles, because you have no particular reason to think you will destroy everything you face directly, and a feeder is about as devastating no matter the role. But since so many people THINK they're in Elo Hell, they end up biased against playing support anyway.

--------------

I just want to point something out:


He isnt that strong of a ganker, and it sounds a lot like you are doing it without red, if you doing level 2 ganks.

This is because you are starting with E. If you start with Q, you can take W at level 2, and have a good 3 seconds of effective CC along with strong damage. Alistar is one of the best jungle gankers in the game, red or no red (though naturally it HELPS).


And at the same time, it sounds a lot like you are throwing a lot of gold away on pots and a chance of a early game advantage, instead of building something usefull.

Right, because NOBODY needs boots, and movespeed provides NO advantage early-game. K then.


Alistar is what he wants to be, and if you can only see him as a roamer, then its because you are a slave to the meta.

*cough* That phrase, I do not think it means what you think it means. A slave to the meta would play support Alistar and circumvent this whole discussion. Playing jungle Alistar as a ganker is simply playing to his obvious strengths.

[Eldariel]

God damnit, raising in Elo should not be this hard:
http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/1488/loladsionfacepalm.png

Step 1: Kill your lane.
Step 2: Kill people around your lane.
Step 3: Proceed to teamfight
Step 4: ?????
Step 5: Enemy gets Baron.

Of course, being the beasts that they are, they proceeded to get caught one-by-one with Baron and we were able to walk into their base and finish. But I learned something from this game:
1. AD Sion still is a terrible idea. For crying out loud, at least build tanky (Trinity Force > Tanky isn't exactly all that tanky) if you're gonna be a slow, clunky frontliner.
2. Apparently Bruiser Cassiopeia is the solution to Getting Instagibbed-problem.
3. Solo queue is hard.

[Zen Master]

Info - so much wonderful info .... *cackles*

Thanks all. So far ......... I'm kinda testing her for bot support. There are better options for that, it seems. But she's very fun to play.

[Arcanoi]

Will of the Ancients: Some of the highest sustained magic damage in the game.
Rylai's Crystal Scepter: No CD AOE abilities that have to be landed as skillshots? Yeah, this is kinda good.

Fun Fact: Karthus Qs that hit only a single target count as single target spells!

[Lix Lorn]

I went and played Karthus again because of this.
My second game ever as him, and the first to be PVP.
I went 16/10/9 and got a pentakill. (Only one of which was an R.)

I like Karthus.

[PersonMan]

Second time I randomed in as Nunu. Second time I did stupidly well. Is it just that he's really easy, or am I just talented with him?

Then my ping went to ~800 and stayed there. So I went from around 5/2 to 10/7 and we lose. Sigh.

[toasty]

I'll just point out that Snoopeh is probably one of the best Jungle Alistair in the game and he doesn't build wriggles, AFAIK. And not only that, but M5 has a tendency to ban Ali against Snoopeh's team, CLG.EU

Also: Snoopeh WILL make jungle ASHE a thing. I swear. Dem Arrow ganks.

[TechnOkami]

I went and played Karthus again because of this.
My second game ever as him, and the first to be PVP.
I went 16/10/9 and got a pentakill. (Only one of which was an R.)

I like Karthus.

You should totally play with Ryomasa and I on Mumble. He mains Mordekaiser and I've discovered a hidden talent with Yorick. As long as someone's willing to play Sona and whoever's going to be the Drummer, this could be all kinds of awesome.

[Lix Lorn]

You should totally play with Ryomasa and I on Mumble. He mains Mordekaiser and I've discovered a hidden talent with Yorick. As long as someone's willing to play Sona and whoever's going to be the Drummer, this could be all kinds of awesome.
...I can buy the skin for it. :smalltongue:

[Reynard]

You should totally play with Ryomasa and I on Mumble. He mains Mordekaiser and I've discovered a hidden talent with Yorick. As long as someone's willing to play Sona and whoever's going to be the Drummer, this could be all kinds of awesome.

IIRC, me and Ryo decided that the drummer would be either MF, Shen, Akali or Olaf.

[Dogmantra]

IIRC, me and Ryo decided that the drummer would be either MF, Shen, Akali or Olaf.

Rumble would be the Drummer/Pyrotechnics expert.

[Math_Mage]

I'll just point out that Snoopeh is probably one of the best Jungle Alistair in the game and he doesn't build wriggles, AFAIK. And not only that, but M5 has a tendency to ban Ali against Snoopeh's team, CLG.EU

Also: Snoopeh WILL make jungle ASHE a thing. I swear. Dem Arrow ganks.

Jungle whatnow? You can do that? I thought Ashe was tied with, like, Zilean for worst jungle clear in the game.

[TechnOkami]

...I can buy the skin for it. :smalltongue:

I'd be willing to spend the money.

[fred dref]

Jungle whatnow? You can do that? I thought Ashe was tied with, like, Zilean for worst jungle clear in the game.

From personal experience, both Katarina and Vlad are terrible, terrible junglers. Not sure how they compare to Zilean, but they're the two worst I've randomed into. I would suspect Ashe would also be super weak, just because level 1 Volley has a similar cooldown to Zilean's ultimate.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

So often in normals nobody jungles on the other team. Suggestions on how to not get pushed clear out of lane and lose your top turret at 10 minutes?

[fred dref]

So often in normals nobody jungles on the other team. Suggestions on how to not get pushed clear out of lane and lose your top turret at 10 minutes?

Pick Cho, Yorick or Nasus, honestly. Otherwise, just deal with being down a tower and farm further back.

EDIT: Or Galio, but I play him mid anyway.

[Math_Mage]

So often in normals nobody jungles on the other team. Suggestions on how to not get pushed clear out of lane and lose your top turret at 10 minutes?

Focus on getting XP, last-hitting under tower, and staying alive/healthy. If the enemy lets you, freeze the wave just outside tower range. If they push hard, just resign yourself to eventually losing tower; you'll have an easier time farming at your inner turret, where it'll be risky for them to stick around for fear of ganks from jungler/mid. Tell your jungler to farm everything and gank mid/bot for ALL THE DRAGONS.

It's much easier to 1v2 with Cho, Yorick, Galio, Nasus, Kennen, Morgana, and Lee Sin than most of the other champions. These champions have cheap ranged abilities, sustain, and some bulk. Cassiopeia, Akali, Urgot, and Caitlyn are a few other champions that can 1v2 reasonably well.

[toasty]

Jungle whatnow? You can do that? I thought Ashe was tied with, like, Zilean for worst jungle clear in the game.

He's done it in normal games. Once he went like 3-0. :smallbiggrin:

[Math_Mage]

He's done it in normal games. Once he went like 3-0. :smallbiggrin:

I'm not questioning that he is, in fact, doing that. What I'm asking is, how?

[Silverraptor]

So, I decided to try Mundo on Dominion. Well, lets just say...
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt255/silverraptor_photo/Screenshots/061.png

MUNDO WILL GIVE OUT BEATINGS IN TRIPLICATE!!!:smallbiggrin:


I think Mundo will be one of my main champions now. Just those minor buffs was all he needed apparently to become competent.

[Neoseanster]

I'm not questioning that he is, in fact, doing that. What I'm asking is, how?

Hmm, well, having a good leash always helps ridiculously... I'll give it a try quickly without in a custom game.

*does so*

Okay, it's manageable! I started cloth armor/5 potions, with attack speed marks, glyphs, and quintessences, armor seals. Masteries were 14/16/0:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3496/masteriesx.jpg

She doesn't have a good clear time, and it's not exactly safe, but it works. I hit level 4 using a normal route at 4:23 or so, with enough HP left to kill wraiths and wolves again without recalling, but then was just barely executed trying to kill small golems a second time. If I did a better job of kiting they'd have died and I'd have hit 5 at around 5:30 or so, or if I was sane I'd have just recalled and shopped before continuing.

As always, getting a good leash would free your rune and mastery and item choices up a lot and make it generally safer.

[Sohala]

Me (as Shyv) and a Tryn get stuck in top lane due to miscommunication during champion select. We get placed against a GP and Fiddle. They have the clear advantage, so we hug tower and grab what few creeps we can. After level six I start farming our jungle, swapping with him to keep pressure up top. We end up giving away no kills and having comparable farm to the enemy lane.

Sadly our great performance doesn't translate to the other lanes, who have given up 15 kills to 2 kills.

20 minutes hits and the team quits...why does this have to happen?

[Cute_Riolu]

Hmm, well, having a good leash always helps ridiculously... I'll give it a try quickly without in a custom game.

*does so*

Okay, it's manageable! I started cloth armor/5 potions, with attack speed marks, glyphs, and quintessences, armor seals. Masteries were 14/16/0:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3496/masteriesx.jpg

She doesn't have a good clear time, and it's not exactly safe, but it works. I hit level 4 using a normal route at 4:23 or so, with enough HP left to kill wraiths and wolves again without recalling, but then was just barely executed trying to kill small golems a second time. If I did a better job of kiting they'd have died and I'd have hit 5 at around 5:30 or so, or if I was sane I'd have just recalled and shopped before continuing.

As always, getting a good leash would free your rune and mastery and item choices up a lot and make it generally safer.

She strikes me as the sort that isn't quite so blue dependant. A red start and prompt gank might do well.

[Arbitrarity]

She strikes me as the sort that isn't quite so blue dependant. A red start and prompt gank might do well.

Volley spam isn't cheap. Not sure how many of those she needs, but it's her only source of damage beyond autoattacks.

[Silverraptor]

Guys. I was browsing the tribunal forum and found this. (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1549781) Its hilarious and I highly recommend it.:smallbiggrin:

[Cute_Riolu]

Volley spam isn't cheap. Not sure how many of those she needs, but it's her only source of damage beyond autoattacks.

No, but neither is its cooldown low enough for it to be too big of an issue. I'll probably try this out at some point.

[Eldariel]

It's much easier to 1v2 with Cho, Yorick, Galio, Nasus, Kennen, Morgana, and Lee Sin than most of the other champions. These champions have cheap ranged abilities, sustain, and some bulk. Cassiopeia, Akali, Urgot, and Caitlyn are a few other champions that can 1v2 reasonably well.

Gragas is a fairly solid 2v1 too. Shen is a about as strong a 2v1 as Nasus but I wouldn't honestly pick either (Akali is also not a champ I'd be crazy about 2v1ing with; the second one opponent buys a Vision Ward, you're stuck behind the tower). Swain can do decently though he does need blue post-6 to be able to keep at it.

Also, some 2v1 lanes are practically impossible; for instance enemy running Taric/Vayne top is going to basically force you to stay out of the lane and just wait to lose the tower or wait for ganks; well, aside perhaps from Galio, Gragas, Cassiopeia and Kennen. I still remember trying to 2v1 top against Ez/Janna with Janna once; that was kinda painful :smalltongue:

[PersonMan]

So, I decided to try Mundo on Dominion. Well, lets just say...
http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt255/silverraptor_photo/Screenshots/061.png

MUNDO WILL GIVE OUT BEATINGS IN TRIPLICATE!!!:smallbiggrin:


I think Mundo will be one of my main champions now. Just those minor buffs was all he needed apparently to become competent.

He got buffs? Probably since after I started playing him, as I haven't noticed anything.

And yeah, Mundo in Dominion = great. In fact, Mundo = Great.

[Chumbaniya]

Things I learned today - Volibear's Q can pull Shyvana back if you hit her while she's ulting over a wall. That was probably one of the coolest moves I've ever done.

And then shortly afterwards I had a guaranteed kill on a Veigar but used my W on a creep instead. All of the awesome was gone.

[Eldariel]

He got buffs? Probably since after I started playing him, as I haven't noticed anything.

And yeah, Mundo in Dominion = great. In fact, Mundo = Great.

Yeah:
General
Base attack speed increased to .625 from 0.595
Attack speed per level increased to 2.8 from 2.5
Magic resist per level increased to 1.25 from .75
Burning Agony health cost reduced to 10/15/20/25/30 from 20/25/30/35/40
Sadism ultimate cooldown reduced to 65 from 75

[Kzickas]

Managed to win a game today despite one of our players feeding every time she respawned and giving the enemies tactical information. Luckily we were far enough ahead that she only managed to kill herself 3 times before we killed two of them and pushed to finish. By this point I think she was around level 15 so she had a long respawn time, if she'd done as she threatened and started feeding level 1 it'd have been a different story.

[PersonMan]

I think I just experienced two of the solo queue horror stories people have talked about.

I'm not playing LoL early afternoons any more.

[Math_Mage]

Managed to win a game today despite one of our players feeding every time she respawned and giving the enemies tactical information. Luckily we were far enough ahead that she only managed to kill herself 3 times before we killed two of them and pushed to finish. By this point I think she was around level 15 so she had a long respawn time, if she'd done as she threatened and started feeding level 1 it'd have been a different story.

Meanwhile, I lost a game where the enemy mid Kayle went 0/12/0 feeding Veigar, of all champs. We would just sit around in mid at low health after killing some of the enemy team, waiting for the rest of them to show up, possibly with the ones who respawned after dying. That and Ezreal was a complete non-factor even after I fed him free kills in lane.

[Adumbration]

I also discovered that you can jungle mundo in TT with full armor runes and HP quints. Without a pull.

More you know.

[Neoseanster]

I also discovered that you can jungle mundo in TT with full armor runes and HP quints. Without a pull.

More you know.

Yup, Mundo is renowned for very fast clears. His cleavers do fantastic damage to high HP targets like buff monsters, he has a good AD steroid, and he has good AoE damage. His main weakness is subpar ganks, being reliant on a skill shot which only applies a slow, no hard CC. They're still passable if you catch someone overextended and you can aim, but it doesn't really stack up with someone like Maokai.

I'm not sure how big of a deal that is in Twisted Treeline, though, I don't have much experience there.

[Eldariel]

Yup, Mundo is renowned for very fast clears. His cleavers do fantastic damage to high HP targets like buff monsters, he has a good AD steroid, and he has good AoE damage. His main weakness is subpar ganks, being reliant on a skill shot which only applies a slow, no hard CC. They're still passable if you catch someone overextended and you can aim, but it doesn't really stack up with someone like Maokai.

I'm not sure how big of a deal that is in Twisted Treeline, though, I don't have much experience there.

Toplane is notoriously easy to gank on TT since the entrances are at the very ends of the lane and the lane is long. If you can get the Wraith buff, it can be more than enough.

[Chumbaniya]

I think I just experienced two of the solo queue horror stories people have talked about.

I'm not playing LoL early afternoons any more.

Haha, I had the same thing this afternoon. I just had a string of lost games where I demolished my lane while my teammates found increasingly creative ways to get themselves killed for nothing. This culminated in a game as Veigar where I went 15-6 (after going 5-0 in lane), got over 800 AP, and lost because they had an equally fed Irelia and our jungling Riven decided to build exclusively AD and leave us without a single tanky character. This kind of thing is why I stopped playing Veigar - he's fun and if you play safe and farm well early game, he can be very powerful later on, but no matter how fed you are you're still really reliant on a good team since you'll only ever be able to instagib one person, maybe 2, but after that you're useless.

[Ivellius]

Things I learned today - Volibear's Q can pull Shyvana back if you hit her while she's ulting over a wall. That was probably one of the coolest moves I've ever done.

And then shortly afterwards I had a guaranteed kill on a Veigar but used my W on a creep instead. All of the awesome was gone.

You can actually do this against anyone with a dash. That's most movement abilities except Ezreal and Kassadin (and probably a couple of others I'm not thinking about at the moment). So, for example, it works on Tristana, Corki, Graves, Tryndamere, Gragas, Renekton, Riven...(there's plenty of others but I don't want to keep listing)

I once flung a Tristana rocket-jumping away with Singed back toward my team. It was nice.

If it helps, I accidentally ignited a minion the other day. *sigh*

[toasty]

I really wish people that wanted to experiment things that are nonstandard would do so in normal games, especially if their team asks them to not do nonstanard stuff.

Today I had a support zilean. I was forced into the AD role (its funny how that happens a lot. :smalltongue:) and the support player (who is a higher pick than me) says he will play support zilean. I ask him to not play support zilean, esp. against a soraka. He asks why I tell him I think zilean is the worst support in the game, he plays zilean.

He bombs ashe. Soraka heals his bomb. He says "oh ****" and Im like "yeah... you see now." Any other support would have been useful. Even a nonsustain support like Nunu (who will deal more damage because of stupid good W buff) or Jarvan (who has loads of CC and surprising amounts of burst) would have been better. I told him this. Three times.

Meanwhile our Olaf feeds and leaves while our Fiora top loses to WW, which is apparently the "go-to" counter for this hero these days. That would be my second pet-peeve: playing the new hero and feeding. It happens far to often in ranked and I wish people would stop it.

Ahh well. At least I know that game wasn't my fault, seeing as I was practically 2v1ing my lane the entire game.

[tyckspoon]

You can actually do this against anyone with a dash. That's most movement abilities except Ezreal and Kassadin (and probably a couple of others I'm not thinking about at the moment). So, for example, it works on Tristana, Corki, Graves, Tryndamere, Gragas, Renekton, Riven...(there's plenty of others but I don't want to keep listing)

I once flung a Tristana rocket-jumping away with Singed back toward my team. It was nice.


You can do it to blinks too (easiest example is Skarner ult videos, probably), but the timing is tighter because you have to have your ability targeted on them in the small delay between hitting the button and when they move instead of being able to hit them at any point during the dash.

[Chumbaniya]

Today is truly cursed. Another couple of games, another couple of destroyed lanes, another couple of losses. The last one particularly noteworthy because I killed the enemy mid so easily twice early on that he AFKed and the other lanes still managed to throw it.

On the plus side, AP Kog'maw is really fun. Is there any viable build for Kog that isn't fun? Because I certainly haven't seen one.

[Suedars]

What does the ss abbreviation mean? Like "ss top"?

[PhoeKun]

What does the ss abbreviation mean? Like "ss top"?

It means your teammate is unsure of whether his opponent is missing, or if they have turned into a tugboat.

[shadowwalker64]

What does the ss abbreviation mean? Like "ss top"?

miSSing

The people on EU use it for some reason unbeknownst to me, but I think it's because it's faster than typing mia.

[Cute_Riolu]

miSSing

The people on EU use it for some reason unbeknownst to me, but I think it's because it's faster than typing mia.

This is likely, and the reason I have taken to using it. I'd rather not miss a cs every time I have to call mia.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

How does Shen play since the rework? Bruiser, as I recall, but what are some specifics for lane or jungle?

[Kzickas]

I think it's a shortned form of "miss" actually, because it generally get's refered to as "calling 'miss'". I think mia is an abriviation that a lot of non english speakers don't know, so I don't think it's ever been popular in europe

[toasty]

How does Shen play since the rework? Bruiser, as I recall, but what are some specifics for lane or jungle?

The exact same as before. Only now he's good. :smallbiggrin:

[Dogmantra]

I think it's a shortned form of "miss" actually, because it generally get's refered to as "calling 'miss'". I think mia is an abriviation that a lot of non english speakers don't know, so I don't think it's ever been popular in europe

The other theory being that it's an initialism for "stay safe", which I find slightly less believable.

[Qwertystop]

Knockups look really weird on any champ who has a status effect that means they trail stuff behind them. Example: Anyone who's been slowed by a cold-based ability. Other example: Singed.

[Lix Lorn]

The other theory being that it's an initialism for "stay safe", which I find slightly less believable.
I like it though. It sounds like you're whispering a loving caress to the other lanes.
'Stay safe' you murmur. 'Stay safe and we'll be together again soon. Stay safe while Annie looks for tibbers out of my sight...'

[Eldariel]

The other theory being that it's an initialism for "stay safe", which I find slightly less believable.

That's the origin; it comes from DoTA like most of the terminology. EU has started using it for "missing" though; preferred over MIA since it's shorter and well, that's just the way of the server. Yours truly obviously has a pain trying to remember to use MIA on US and SS on EU (since tons of players on both will go "what?" if you use the other much of the time). As such, "ss" in LoL use is equivalent to "mia".

[Legoshrimp]

So I have been liking Fiora, What do you guys build?

Also my match history right now is the best. THE BEST.
http://i.imgur.com/HCXSX.jpg (http://imgur.com/HCXSX)