[3.5] Minotaur Great Hammer. Problem?

[Ryulin18]

The Minotaur Great Hammer from MM4 is a heavy hitter machine without a doubt. It has the damage of a Greataxe (1d12), the crit range of a Greatsword (19-20) and the crit modifier of a scythe (x4). Understandable why some DM's would ban this at the thought of having any melee character using this.

Now in return for this you have to have an exotic weapon proficiency with it, carry the 30lbs of weight (at medium size) as well as possibly finding, crafting, fighting for or stealing one.


The spiked chain and minotaur greathammer are how powerful all other exotic weapons should be, not the other way around.

A spiked chain has less damage, for sure, but makes up for it by locking down most a battlefield almost permanently. Yet my DM says he is okay with it because he knows how to sort it. But as an exotic weapon, shouldn't be a good weapon that requires the skill to use shown by the feat required? Many weapons aren't worth the feat at all.

The DM says that in no way am I allowed one, Even though I am in a full caster party including an arcane savant that has a 3 HD monkey at 1st level!

So how can I put this to reason? How can I persuade him with logic that it should be allowed?

I'm thinking disavowing increasing it's crit modifier or being forced to quest for one?

[herrhauptmann]

Whoa there.
First thing. Be calm when you talk to the DM.
Second, try asking for the goliath greathammer. It's in Races of Stone. And is obviously intended for players, while the greathorn hammer could be viewed as monsters only (it's in a monster manual after all)

Third, despite being all arcane party, how are the other players making their characters? Are they all optimizing? Or playing it as the WotC playtesters thought.

Fourth, if the DM still shoots you down and no one is optimizing, please don't retaliate by trying to break the game.

[CTrees]

I agree with the Hirax quote.

Now, for how to convince your dm? Ya got me.

[Mystify]

For the cost of a feat, your greataxe now has more crit range, a higher crit multiplier, and it stacks with other crit range multipliers. That is extremely powerful for a feat.
A goiath greathammer from races of stone is similar, but doesn't have the extra crit range. That is much more in line with the benefit of feat.

[Hiro Protagonest]

For the cost of a feat, your greataxe now has more crit range, a higher crit multiplier, and it stacks with other crit range multipliers. That is extremely powerful for a feat.

Not moreso than Improved Crit on a falchion, which is practically a no brainer. Or Power Attack. Or Leap Attack (even without Shock Trooper, it's pretty good to switch the +2 to attack with a +6 to damage, especially on an Improved Crit or keen falchion for a 1/4 chance of changing it to +12 damage).

However, the problem is, obviously better damage numbers are more likely to get a kneejerk reaction from the DM than a well-played control wizard.

[Mystify]

Not moreso than Improved Crit on a falchion, which is practically a no brainer. Or Power Attack. Or Leap Attack (even without Shock Trooper, it's pretty good to switch the +2 to attack with a +6 to damage, especially on an Improved Crit or keen falchion for a 1/4 chance of changing it to +12 damage).

However, the problem is, obviously better damage numbers are more likely to get a kneejerk reaction from the DM than a well-played control wizard.
Yes moreso than improved crit on a falchion. improvedcrit is fairly consistant. Put it on an improved crit weapon, or a weapon withan improved crit range, and it has the same overall effect. That feat is not only giving a better improvement than that, but it stacks, making it heads and shoulders about everything else, even with a feat cost.
Power attack and leap attack are their own bag of worms.
Just because wizards are too powerful does not mean that you should ignore all balance of the mundanes. letting them run rampant is not healthy to a campaign. Of course, this alone will send the earth spiraling into the sun, but the attitude that you should ignore the balance of mundanes is not healthy.

[Ryulin18]

Try asking for the goliath greathammer.
I've looked at it and it barely seems worth the feat


Third, despite being all arcane party, how are the other players making their characters? Are they all optimizing?
You have no idea. I play with master level min maxers without souls. The heirophant can have his monkey do 32d6 damage with his 26 strength and 10hd of damage at level 6 for hours per day, as well as having caster level 1 lower for both classes.
Edit: Atleast that is what he is making it sound like.


For the cost of a feat, your greataxe now has more crit range, a higher crit multiplier, and it stacks with other crit range multipliers. That is extremely powerful for a feat.

Isn't that what feats are for? I'm not exactly going to pick up toughness every level. I have to wrack my brains and search every handbook/forum/book to keep up with a build my party makes whilst they blink!

[Mystify]

Isn't that what feats are for? I'm not exactly going to pick up toughness every level. I have to wrack my brains and search every handbook/forum/book to keep up with a build my party makes whilst they blink!
With a few notably exception that everyone likes to exploit, the power level of feats are generally fairly consistent. That exceeds it is several ways. Dobuling the crit range alone would be worth it, esp. since it would stack with other crit range multipliers. Increasing the multiplier as well is kinda amazing.

[Hirax]

With a few notably exception that everyone likes to exploit, the power level of feats are generally fairly consistent.

So, so, utterly false.

[Mystify]

So, so, utterly false.
I spend a lot of time browsing feat compendiums. There are general trends and tendencies which are very clear and apparent. It is the exceptions that everyone hears about.

[Ryulin18]

Doubling the crit range alone would be worth it.

So, lets say if I give up EVER increasing the crit range....still broken?

[tyckspoon]

Yes moreso than improved crit on a falchion. improvedcrit is fairly consistant. Put it on an improved crit weapon, or a weapon withan improved crit range, and it has the same overall effect.

Actually, if I remember the math right, Improved Crit is better on weapons that already have good critical characteristics (which is.. pretty obvious, but the math does back it up) and crit range and crit damage are basically equivalent in terms of average damage (higher crit range makes you less likely to 'waste' damage by delivering a 4x crit on somebody with very few remaining HP, but the raw damage you do over time is the same on a 20/x3 weapon as on a 19-20/x2 weapons.)

So: Falchion: 18-20/x2. That's +2 over the default for crits. Increases to +5 if you spend a feat on Improved Critical for it.
Greataxe: 20/x3. +1 over default. Increases to +3 if you spend a feat on getting a Minotaur Hammer.

So the feat for the Falchion is in fact a better overall improvement than spending that feat on proficiency for the exotic weapon- your damage over time goes up more by taking Improved Crit on the Falchion than by picking up a Minotaur Greathammer. It may appear otherwise because the hammer is much more swingy about its damage output, which makes confirmation bias an issue; most people don't pay that much attention to their normal damage trends, but they do remember when that big crit number splatters an ogre/troll/giant/dragon in one shot, which makes the higher crit multiplier 'feel' more powerful than the expanded crit range.

tl;dr: If the Minotaur Greathammer is overpowered, so is Improved Critical on a weapon with pre-existing good crit properties.

[Hiro Protagonest]

With a few notably exception that everyone likes to exploit, the power level of feats are generally fairly consistent. That exceeds it is several ways. Dobuling the crit range alone would be worth it, esp. since it would stack with other crit range multipliers. Increasing the multiplier as well is kinda amazing.

...Improved Crit is notably better on a falchion than a greataxe or greatsword. Greatsword gets a total average of 6.5+6 (22 str from level and magic item) damage per hit, 250 total but with 4 doublings, probably three of which will hit, for a total of 269.5 damage, minus the five that will miss, for a total of 207 damage. On a falchion, you get 4.5+8 damage per hit, 210 total but with six doublings, four of which will probably hit and one of which has a half chance of hitting (I'll add half of the damage for that one), for a total of 257.25 damage, minus the five that'll miss for a total of 205.75 damage. Falchion's slightly behind, but it was even more behind before Improved Crit, and that's before Power Attack, which adds 2 damage per -1, 4 per -1 on a critical, so falchion gets more benefit out of that, and falchion also gets more benefit out of PA multipliers.

[Ryulin18]

Greatsword gets a total average of 6.5+6 (22 str from level and magic item) damage per hit, 250 total but with 4 doublings, probably three of which will hit, for a total of 269.5 damage, minus the five that will miss, for a total of 207 damage. On a falchion, you get 4.5+8 damage per hit, 210 total but with six doublings, four of which will probably hit and one of which has a half chance of hitting (I'll add half of the damage for that one), for a total of 257.25 damage, minus the five that'll miss for a total of 205.75 damage. Falchion's slightly behind, but it was even more behind before Improved Crit, and that's before Power Attack, which adds 2 damage per -1, 4 per -1 on a critical, so falchion gets more benefit out of that, and falchion also gets more benefit out of PA multipliers.

Wow that's a lot of maths. I would still like the Minotaur great hammer though. So back to the point, ways I can ask my DM politely for it?

[Ernir]

I agree with the "it's not broken" crowd.

As for how to convince your DM of that... no idea.

I'm not sure it's worth it, either. If one of my DMs would veto Minotaur Greathammer, I'd go "okay", and use the feat slot on something that enables me to do something more significant than critting on a 19 as well as a 20.


With a few notably exception that everyone likes to exploit, the power level of feats are generally fairly consistent.

The hell it is. There is everything from universally useless feats to completely broken feats, and the deviation on the scale isn't exactly low (or centered around "okay feats").

In this case, EWP: Minotaur Greathammer comes out favourably when, in isolation, it is compared to Improved Critical, which is barely an "okay" feat in a splatbook-enabled game at the best of times, and absolutely horrible when applied to a greataxe, your point of comparison.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Wow that's a lot of maths.

I used a calculator. :smalltongue:

[Dusk Eclipse]

[Insert DM's Name here] can I please take EWP: Minotaur Great Hammer as my X level feat?

There, that is the politest way you can ask for it. :smalltongue:

Also if your group is used to mid to high op and it's knowledgeable about tiers, add. "Look the other players are playing tier 1 and 2 classes, and I don't want to feel useless, so can take this feat which while powerful isn't on the level as say Arcane Thesis?" or something along the lines of that.

[Mystify]

The hell it is. There is everything from universally useless feats to completely broken feats, and the deviation on the scale isn't exactly low (or centered around "okay feats").
Well maybe I just notice all of the trends and skim over the junk.

[Mystify]

Actually, if I remember the math right, Improved Crit is better on weapons that already have good critical characteristics (which is.. pretty obvious, but the math does back it up) and crit range and crit damage are basically equivalent in terms of average damage (higher crit range makes you less likely to 'waste' damage by delivering a 4x crit on somebody with very few remaining HP, but the raw damage you do over time is the same on a 20/x3 weapon as on a 19-20/x2 weapons.)

So: Falchion: 18-20/x2. That's +2 over the default for crits. Increases to +5 if you spend a feat on Improved Critical for it.
Greataxe: 20/x3. +1 over default. Increases to +3 if you spend a feat on getting a Minotaur Hammer.

So the feat for the Falchion is in fact a better overall improvement than spending that feat on proficiency for the exotic weapon- your damage over time goes up more by taking Improved Crit on the Falchion than by picking up a Minotaur Greathammer. It may appear otherwise because the hammer is much more swingy about its damage output, which makes confirmation bias an issue; most people don't pay that much attention to their normal damage trends, but they do remember when that big crit number splatters an ogre/troll/giant/dragon in one shot, which makes the higher crit multiplier 'feel' more powerful than the expanded crit range.

tl;dr: If the Minotaur Greathammer is overpowered, so is Improved Critical on a weapon with pre-existing good crit properties.
Setting aside the pointless bsae weapon damage and only looking at the crit multipliers:


A low crir weapon gets +5% damage from crits.
A normal crit weapon gets +10% damage from crits
An improved crit weapon has +15% damage from crits.

Improved critical doubles all of those, so an improved crit weapon gets an extra 15% increase.

A greataxe is a normal crit weapon, and hence has 10% extra damage.
A minatuar greathammer, with its x4 19-20 crit, does 30% by itself. It alone is worth an improved crit falchion or other high-crit weapon. The boost from a greataxe is much larger than improved crit, and stakcs with it. So you end up with 60% damage increase, compared to the 30% from a falchion base. Improved crit gives +15% increase at best with normal weapons, and this feat is giving a +20% over the base axe, or a +15% over a falchion.
So, at a conservative reading, it is equivalent to improved crit. However, it then doubles the subsequent effectiveness of improved crit, compared to its normal best case.
Getting 13 non-weapon damage per hit is trivial, so I would snatch this weapon up even if it did 1d4 damage. The d12 base damage is just icing.

[Ernir]

Well maybe I just notice all of the trends and skim over the junk.

I recommend reading carefully through the feat section of one of the complete series sometime. I'd guess you'll find a few familiar names, one or two gems that might make you wonder whether you could fit them in a build, lots of "Aaalmost worth it" feats, and a few "This is so bad. Oh god, why" feats.

[herrhauptmann]

Well maybe I just notice all of the trends and skim over the junk.
That's a LOT of skimming...

I've looked at it and it barely seems worth the feat

Isn't it pretty much the same, save for the crit range?
Damage: 1d10, 1d12, 3d6. 30 pounds. Bludgeoning. x4 crit.
And since part of the problem with the minotaur hammer is that the monster stat block has one crit range, and the weapon listing has another...


You have no idea. I play with master level min maxers without souls. The heirophant can have his monkey do 32d6 damage with his 26 strength and 10hd of damage at level 6 for hours per day, as well as having caster level 1 lower for both classes.
Edit: Atleast that is what he is making it sound like.

Isn't that what feats are for? I'm not exactly going to pick up toughness every level. I have to wrack my brains and search every handbook/forum/book to keep up with a build my party makes whilst they blink!
I hope he's exaggerating. And if he's not, I hope the DM isn't allowing loopholes that make punpun look tame.
Either way, I feel for you.
Perhaps you could post your character in a thread here and ask for optimization help. Make sure to include the fluff/flavor of your character, so that some of the advice goes in the direction you want.
If homebrew is allowed, here's some ToB: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9233697#post9233697


With a few notably exception that everyone likes to exploit, the power level of feats are generally fairly consistent. That exceeds it is several ways. Dobuling the crit range alone would be worth it, esp. since it would stack with other crit range multipliers. Increasing the multiplier as well is kinda amazing.
Umm, in most cases, crit multipliers don't stack.
It's why everyone uses Kaorti Resin when they want good crit ranges. Then get pissy when they realize they can't use Disciple of dispater with their Kaorti weapon.

[Taelas]

With a few notably exception that everyone likes to exploit, the power level of feats are generally fairly consistent.

... I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about if you honestly believe that sentence.

[Mystify]

Umm, in most cases, crit multipliers don't stack.
It's why everyone uses Kaorti Resin when they want good crit ranges. Then get pissy when they realize they can't use Disciple of dispater with their Kaorti weapon.
Exactly why a weapon whose crit range is naturally doubles is so amazing. Its not increases, its just larger, so you can increase it again.

[herrhauptmann]

A greatsword isn't a weapon with a 'doubled crit range.'
It's a weapon with a larger crit range in exchange for lower crit multiplier.

Ryulin, how about the Jovar? (Manual of the planes or Planar handbook)

[Mystify]

... I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about if you honestly believe that sentence.
I see a ton of feats the translate to a +1 AC in various forms, a lot of feats that have similar skill increases. Generally, anything that deviates from that trend has mitigating factors, like only apply in x circumstance, or to y type of check.
Of course, there are a ton of exceptions on either side. These are the ones that cause people to complain that it is worthless, or things like leap attack that are used by everyone. Because of the exceptionally good feats, people latch onto them as their standards, and the masses of feats which are balanced against each other are all thrown under the wagon as being poor.
For isntance, improved initative is a +4 to initative.
Danger sense allows you to roll twice on your initative check and take the better roll. I've determined that rolling twice and taking the better is, on average, worth a +5 bonus at best, more typically a +3 or 4 bonus. IT is limited to 1/day, but oddly enough that increases the effectiveness of that use, since you would only use it on a low roll, so the expected increase is much higher, which in turn balances itself out.
Looking at combat feats, there are a lot of them that give simple +1 to hit or +2 damage, and that ratio seems to be considered the proper value between accuracy and damage. That is the ratio that power attack is balanced around.
Of course, there are a lot of more off the wall feats that are not as directly comprable.

[herrhauptmann]

Any of you have a link to tht article where a guy gave point values to feats, and said toughness was worth more than most metamagics because "it was always active."

[Ryulin18]

I hope he's exaggerating. And if he's not, I hope the DM isn't allowing loopholes that make punpun look tame.
Either way, I feel for you.

This guy theory craft's guys where his 6th level feat is this:
http://geekcentricity.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/antispiral-powergaming.jpg


Perhaps you could post your character in a thread here and ask for optimization help.

I think I will be doing. I don't like over kill characters though.


Ryulin, how about the Jovar? (Manual of the planes or Planar handbook)

DM says our first weapons have to be able to be acquired and paid for by our 1st level characters. So no "my dad was a planar traveller" or the like.

[herrhauptmann]

Ahh, forgot about the 500 gold cost.
Are you starting at level 1 or 2?

[Ryulin18]

Ahh, forgot about the 500 gold cost.
Are you starting at level 1 or 2?

1st! My first ever "from the beginning" adventure! Always had "okay, we'll start at 15th level" games.

[Taelas]

I see a ton of feats the translate to a +1 AC in various forms, a lot of feats that have similar skill increases. Generally, anything that deviates from that trend has mitigating factors, like only apply in x circumstance, or to y type of check.
Of course, there are a ton of exceptions on either side. These are the ones that cause people to complain that it is worthless, or things like leap attack that are used by everyone. Because of the exceptionally good feats, people latch onto them as their standards, and the masses of feats which are balanced against each other are all thrown under the wagon as being poor.
For isntance, improved initative is a +4 to initative.
Danger sense allows you to roll twice on your initative check and take the better roll. I've determined that rolling twice and taking the better is, on average, worth a +5 bonus at best, more typically a +3 or 4 bonus. IT is limited to 1/day, but oddly enough that increases the effectiveness of that use, since you would only use it on a low roll, so the expected increase is much higher, which in turn balances itself out.
Looking at combat feats, there are a lot of them that give simple +1 to hit or +2 damage, and that ratio seems to be considered the proper value between accuracy and damage. That is the ratio that power attack is balanced around.
Of course, there are a lot of more off the wall feats that are not as directly comprable.

The types of feats you're describing amounts to maybe half of the feats from the Player's Handbook. This is, not surprisingly, only a handful of the feats actually available.

And even the ones you describe do not have a "generally consistent power level", but are all over the place. Improved Initiative is fairly good, Leap Attack is very good, Weapon Focus is average (neither good nor bad), Dodge is awful, and the "+2 to two different skills" feats are even worse.

Then there's stuff like Run, or Toughness, which are just plain traps.

"Fairly consistent"? No, not even close.

[herrhauptmann]

"Fairly consistent"? No, not even close.
Oh give the poor guy a break, he already explained this. He did a LOT of skimming. :smallwink:
Skimming which had to have included pretty much all of 3.0 forgotten realms.

[Ryulin18]

Ahh...My 1st second page thread, This post will make me a halflingITP and I'm going to bed.

Have fun and I swear to god if I come back and we're still discussing the "I was skimming" guy I will vanquish you all to the furthest reaches of hell. :smallsmile:

Night Night!

[herrhauptmann]

Have fun and I swear to god if I come back and we're still discussing the "I was skimming" guy I will vanquish you all to the furthest reaches of hell. :smallsmile:
Guys, this sounds like a challenge. :smallbiggrin:

[Mystify]

The types of feats you're describing amounts to maybe half of the feats from the Player's Handbook. This is, not surprisingly, only a handful of the feats actually available.

And even the ones you describe do not have a "generally consistent power level", but are all over the place. Improved Initiative is fairly good, Leap Attack is very good, Weapon Focus is average (neither good nor bad), Dodge is awful, and the "+2 to two different skills" feats are even worse.

Then there's stuff like Run, or Toughness, which are just plain traps.

"Fairly consistent"? No, not even close.
I'm not even talking about the player;s handbook, I have a fairly comprehensive list of feats arranged by category. Yes, different threads of feats operate at different effectiveness and power level, but there is rarely much variation within a thread. Improving criticals is a very, very tightly controlled thing. From my understanding, this was not the case in 3.0, and you could do really crazy things with crit ranges. In 3.5, they tightened up on this, andmade sure that you couldn't double extend crit ranges. Then there is a the minotaur greathammer, which has double the crit power of any other weapon, and it breaks one of the more consistent guidelines in 3.5.
If you couldn't extend its crit range further, it would be fine. It would provide ample returns for your feat, and everything would be honky dory. Its the fact that it then doubles the effectiveness of improved critical or similar effects, which are already very strong.
Yes, D&D balance is a complete mess. That does not mean we should abandon it altogether. Melee's problems are not getting big enough numbers. They can get plenty of huge numbers. Its everything else that needs work, and throwing bigger numbers at it does not help the game function better.

[Otomodachi]

Offer to make a back-up character to replace your exotic weapon wielder, if, in practice, the DM feels his initial opinion was validated. Tell him you are really interested in playing the character in your head, but are worried you're just not going to be able to contribute. If he's been at it for a while, he might point out the roleplaying is it's own reward or he might not; the whatever fallacy aside, noone wants to try to portray a hero and end up being a non-functional loser.

If you go the backup character route, talk with him about pre-planning a way to take your previous character out of the picture if it seems necessary. A lot of this is going to depend on what kind of DM he is; if your group is heavy on min-maxing, my gut worries that he's not much on 'story', but I totally admit that's an unfair bias.

I guess my basic advice is be flexible and be willing to be shot down?

[Snowbluff]

A falchion has 22 hits on a d20. (1 extra hit on 20, 19, 18, no hit on 1)

MGH Hammer has 25. (3 extra hits with 20, and 19). Win :D

My avatar is actually holding his magic one. :P

[Tvtyrant]

The best use of the Minotaur Great Hammer is to throw a colossal one as a ghost at people for 8d6 damage.

[Hirax]

A falchion has 22 hits on a d20. (1 extra hit on 20, 19, 18, no hit on 1)

MGH Hammer has 25. (3 extra hits with 20, and 19). Win :D

My avatar is actually holding his magic one. :P

That's the wrong way to look at it, because the hammer costs you a feat, unless you're willing to take the -4 penalty. If you expend the same amount of resources (a feat) on the falchion, by your metric they become tied (improved crit adds 3, putting them both at 25, if I'm following you), except for the marginal base damage of the weapons. If you put the same amount of resources into the hammer or the falchion, they'll come out about the same, against creatures susceptible to critical hits. The difference between the hammer and falchion is that the hammer can be aided by more resources, but because crit immunity is so common, you might be wasting additional resources on something that ends up being unhelpful.

Perhaps your DM will buy this, perhaps not. If it's a campaign where most of the enemies will be vulnerable to crits, he might freak out just as much over a falchion with improved crit.

edit: is that the last of them? Damned triple post.

[Taelas]

GHMGH does benefit a lot from Improved Critical, yeah. (Assuming you throw it at it also, it ups the "base hits" from 25 to 31.)

You do have to factor in stuff like confirmation rolls, though.

[Thurbane]

For the cost of a feat, your greataxe now has more crit range, a higher crit multiplier, and it stacks with other crit range multipliers. That is extremely powerful for a feat.
A goiath greathammer from races of stone is similar, but doesn't have the extra crit range. That is much more in line with the benefit of feat.
I know others have more-or-less covered this, but there is very little parity in the power of feats in D&D. Skill Focus (Use Rope) and Wild Cohort have the exact same feat investment...and the same reqs...

[Mystify]

I know others have more-or-less covered this, but there is very little parity in the power of feats in D&D. Skill Focus (Use Rope) and Wild Cohort have the exact same feat investment...and the same reqs...

Yes, but those feats are doing vastly different things. They tend to be much more consistent when you compare feats that accomplish similar things. Not perfectly, of course, but definitely more consistent.
And I'm not saying its outclassing skill focus(use rope). I'm saying its outclassing improved critical, which is a powerful one, and one that is highly regulated.

[Ryulin18]

Okay, what I have managed to pick up from this entire thread is that...

1: Minotaur hammer is not broken

2: The EWP for it is just replacement for improved crit on a falchion, but falchion overall does more damage.

3: It is not as good and as power gamey as a spiked chain?

4: Math is fun?

[Mystify]

Okay, what I have managed to pick up from this entire thread is that...

1: Minotaur hammer is not broken

2: The EWP for it is just replacement for improved crit on a falchion, but falchion overall does more damage.

3: It is not as good and as power gamey as a spiked chain?

4: Math is fun?

5. improved crit on it is extremely powerful.

[Ryulin18]

5. improved crit on it is extremely powerful.

But my DM would throw a hissy fit if I chose to do that. The thread's point was to find a way of allowing my DM to allow it.

[Mystify]

But my DM would throw a hissy fit if I chose to do that. The thread's point was to find a way of allowing my DM to allow it.
Yes, it is reasonable if you don't take improved crit on top of it.

[ahenobarbi]

5. improved crit on it is extremely powerful.

In group of optimizing wizards? K'mon while this might be very powerful in group where I'm playing now (I have hard time explaining that monks are not extremely powerful class...) but this guy will have to optimize to be better melee than wizards pet, so I think it shouldn't be a problem.

[Mystify]

In group of optimizing wizards? K'mon while this might be very powerful in group where I'm playing now (I have hard time explaining that monks are not extremely powerful class...) but this guy will have to optimize to be better melee than wizards pet, so I think it shouldn't be a problem.
Bigger numbers won't do a thing to help him.

[tonberrian]

5. improved crit on it is extremely powerful.

Correction: Improved Crit on it is more powerful compared to other weapons.

It still isn't a terribly powerful feat.

[ahenobarbi]

Bigger numbers won't do a thing to help him.

Thye will. Because without bigger numbers his character will be weaker than wizards pet.

[Seerow]

Let's look at it this way, a 15-20x2 crit vs a 17-20x4 crit, assuming you hit on a 5.


Scimitar
1-4: 0
5-14: 1
15-20: 1 (20%)+2(80%) = 1.8

Average damage per attack: 1.04[W]

Greathammer
1-4: 0
5-16: 1
17-20: 1(20%)+4(80%) = 3.4

Average damage per attack: 1.28[W]


So you spend one feat and gain a 23% increase in average damage per attack, assuming you're getting improved critical/keen/whatever regardless. This is a noticeable difference, but hardly an overpowering one. Especially when you consider the number of enemies who are crit immune, or can get it trivially.

If greathammer were nerfed so you only had a 20x4 crit, it would be exactly 1.04 with improved crit, so you would be paying the feat ONLY to get the extra damage die, which is a small enough boost as to be negligible, and not worth the feat in the least. (see: Every other ****ty exotic weapon)

[Mystify]

Thye will. Because without bigger numbers his character will be weaker than wizards pet.
Ok, lets give all martial characters +1000 to their damage every hit.
Wait, that didn't balance the game?
fixes to martial classes need to address their lack of options and their general inability to interact with magic. Their numbers don't need any help. Thats why ToB works so well, it gives them options. I can easily out damage a ToB character with tier 4 and 5s. But ToB is tier 3 because they have options.
The general attitude that melee characters are weak, so they need more numbers does not work. Their numbers are not insufficient under moderate optimization. Its their lack of options and resiliancy that gets them.

[Seerow]

Ok, lets give all martial characters +1000 to their damage every hit.
Wait, that didn't balance the game?
fixes to martial classes need to address their lack of options and their general inability to interact with magic. Their numbers don't need any help. Thats why ToB works so well, it gives them options. I can easily out damage a ToB character with tier 4 and 5s. But ToB is tier 3 because they have options.
The general attitude that melee characters are weak, so they need more numbers does not work. Their numbers are not insufficient under moderate optimization. Its their lack of options and resiliancy that gets them.

The fact that damage does not translate into options does not make damage in of itself useless (as you imply half the time) or overpowered (as you imply the other half). It has its place in a character's toolbox just like anything else. I don't think anyone has been advocating focusing on nothing but damage, but I have seen you claim using the minotaur greathammer would completely unbalance the game, which is not true in the least.

[Mystify]

The fact that damage does not translate into options does not make damage in of itself useless (as you imply half the time) or overpowered (as you imply the other half). It has its place in a character's toolbox just like anything else. I don't think anyone has been advocating focusing on nothing but damage, but I have seen you claim using the minotaur greathammer would completely unbalance the game, which is not true in the least.
Not by itself, no, but the attitude that melee needs a boost, and hence you should ignore the implications of allowing a bunch of overpowered stuff, tends to lead to a critical mass of broken stuff incombination that yields uberchargers and their kin.
A minotaur greathammer alone is not really problematic, but it is notably more powerful than other weapons. And unlike the spiked chain, its not even doing it in a way that fosters more tactile gameplay.
I really should just stop complaining about the imbalances of 3.5 and just give up on it.

[tonberrian]

Not by itself, no, but the attitude that melee needs a boost, and hence you should ignore the implications of allowing a bunch of overpowered stuff, tends to lead to a critical mass of broken stuff incombination that yields uberchargers and their kin.
A minotaur greathammer alone is not really problematic, but it is notably more powerful than other weapons. And unlike the spiked chain, its not even doing it in a way that fosters more tactile gameplay.
I really should just stop complaining about the imbalances of 3.5 and just give up on it.

It is notably more powerful, but not overpoweringly so, especially since precision damage (the damage bonus you get, effectively) becomes increasingly less useful as enemies get more powerful.

[Seerow]

Not by itself, no, but the attitude that melee needs a boost, and hence you should ignore the implications of allowing a bunch of overpowered stuff, tends to lead to a critical mass of broken stuff incombination that yields uberchargers and their kin.
A minotaur greathammer alone is not really problematic, but it is notably more powerful than other weapons. And unlike the spiked chain, its not even doing it in a way that fosters more tactile gameplay.
I really should just stop complaining about the imbalances of 3.5 and just give up on it.

It's notably more powerful than other weapons because exotic weapons should be notably more powerful. Look at the exotic weapons that regularly get used. The greathammer gets used because it's a decent power multiplier. The spiked chain gets used because it has a utility that is hard to get elsewhere. The gnomish quickrazor gets used because it lets you use Iajatsu (basically a skill-based sneak attack) on every strike you ever make.


There may be a few others, but those are the major ones. Other weapons don't get used because there's no point. It is not worth it to spend a feat just to gain a +1 damage die size, which is what most other exotic weapons are.



You are correct when you say melee already is capable of doing enough damage. But without investing resources -somewhere- they do not do that damage automatically. A warrior with nothing at all invested into improving his damage will be pitiful, probably along the lines of 30 damage per round at level 20, without investing gold, feats, and class features into damage. Melee damage is not automatically the hundreds or more points per round we assume when discussing optimized characters. They get to that level by optimizing their resources.

A character spending a feat on the greathammer is not spending that same feat on another feat that may provide more damage instead. A character leveling in Barbarian is doing this at the cost of not leveling in Wizard or Cleric to give himself better buffing ability. Yes, a character focusing all of his resources into pure damage will have way more damage than he really needs, and won't be able to do nothing else. But the flaw with your argument is that you neglect the fact that he does still need to invest SOME resources into damage just to be remotely relevant in that area.

[Mystify]

It's notably more powerful than other weapons because exotic weapons should be notably more powerful. Look at the exotic weapons that regularly get used. The greathammer gets used because it's a decent power multiplier. The spiked chain gets used because it has a utility that is hard to get elsewhere. The gnomish quickrazor gets used because it lets you use Iajatsu (basically a skill-based sneak attack) on every strike you ever make.


There may be a few others, but those are the major ones. Other weapons don't get used because there's no point. It is not worth it to spend a feat just to gain a +1 damage die size, which is what most other exotic weapons are.



You are correct when you say melee already is capable of doing enough damage. But without investing resources -somewhere- they do not do that damage automatically. A warrior with nothing at all invested into improving his damage will be pitiful, probably along the lines of 30 damage per round at level 20, without investing gold, feats, and class features into damage. Melee damage is not automatically the hundreds or more points per round we assume when discussing optimized characters. They get to that level by optimizing their resources.

A character spending a feat on the greathammer is not spending that same feat on another feat that may provide more damage instead. A character leveling in Barbarian is doing this at the cost of not leveling in Wizard or Cleric to give himself better buffing ability. Yes, a character focusing all of his resources into pure damage will have way more damage than he really needs, and won't be able to do nothing else. But the flaw with your argument is that you neglect the fact that he does still need to invest SOME resources into damage just to be remotely relevant in that area.
My main objection really stems from the stranglehold the system has on crits, so such a blatant exception to that triggers alarm bells to me.

[Hirax]

3: It is not as good and as power gamey as a spiked chain?


This is true, I'd rate the spiked chain as more useful. It's so easy to win at damage, which is another reason the argument over the hammer is moot in the first place. In a new group I'm playing with, I'm confounding the DM with damage output, and I'm only level 5 and using power attack with a goliath dragonborn barbarian/fighter wielding a greataxe. The DM probably wouldn't allow me to wield a falchion with improved crit or cast bless weapon on it (crits automatically confirm against evil foes, but it doesn't stack with keen, next level I'm taking pious templar so I'll be able to cast it), both core options.