[3.5] Dwarf Barbarian optimization

[Ryulin18]

You guys are the only people I trust to give results strong enough for the situation. My trust is in you.

Playing a Dwarf Barbarian in a group of optimized casters getting to tier 0/1 pretty early on. So I need to go big and bad before the fun is drained from the game.

I was going to go with these stats after racials;
STR 18
DEX 14
CON 18
INT 12
WIS 8
CHA 6

Using the alternative class feature "street fighter" from city scape to get all the fun bonuses for charging.

I won't pick up pounce for the personal reason of hating power gaming and wanting to keep my 40ft movement.

taking a -1hp/level for +10ft move (+4 jump for leap attack)

feats
1st - power attack
3rd - ?
6th - Leap attack
9th+ - ?

Equipping with 120gp:
A Dwarven War Axe
Studded leather (+5 ac total)
Masterwork tool hammer (+2 to smithing)

(Later getting a Minotaur Great Hammer from MM4)

Skills will be (4+1)x4 = 20 / 5 to fill
-Climb
-Craft weapon smithing
-Jump (12 @ 1st for leap attack)
-Listen
-Tumble (Traded ride for it from dungeonscape)

So? Where to improve?

[Aegis013]

I won't pick up pounce for the personal reason of hating power gaming and wanting to keep my 40ft movement.


I've got some BAD news for you. You won't be competitive with t1 casters. Even pounce won't be enough to keep you on par.

[Voyager_I]

Honest advice? If you're trying to make a competitive melee character and even optimizing enough to get Pounce puts a bad taste in your mouth, you might want to find another game.

Nothing against you or your friends; this just sounds like a pretty big mismatch.

[Suddo]

There's a line somewhere that will allow you to swap out your Racial Weapon Familiarity for others of the same race. This would allow you to get Dwarven Warpike.
Also go 1 Barb and then the rest Warblade or something. Seriously there is almost no reason to stay in the class, you get almost everything at level 1.

And I hate to be a **** but I have to agree with the guy above that if you are partying with Wizards and don't want to get Pounce you're going to become worthless fast.

If you want to do something Fighty in the part being a Gish is a much better idea. Some food for thought:
Gish Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786)
Barbarian Hanbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8753.0)

[Myth]

Going Tier 1/Tier 0 :smalleek:

The best advice would be.

1. Don't be a Dwarf
2. Don't be a Barbarian

If you DO insist on both, the best thing you can hope for is an ubercharger with Leap Attack/Shock Trooper etc. etc. the whole nine yards. Do get pounce, it's sorely needed.

If you want to hit people to death ToB is a much better choice. Roll a Warblade instead.

The best choice would be a CoDzilla, naturally.

[GnomeGninjas]

If you still want extra speed but need pounce to be competetive get pounce from the feral template (Savage Species) , the lost damage from power attack will be made up for by the damage from the strength increase.

[Ryulin18]

Tome of Battle is not allowed because my DM says it is "overpowered" and "too much paperwork".

And all I have read from this so far is that I have to make myself over powered and ridiculous to match the party?

What ever happened to just having fun with a game, where has the fun gone?

[Psyren]

And all I have read from this so far is that I have to make myself over powered and ridiculous to match the party?

What ever happened to just having fun with a game, where has the fun gone?

Your friends are to blame here. If they're aiming for T0 levels of power you will almost literally become furniture to their cosmic exploits.

If they're actually going to work with you then you're fine.

Anyway - good, non-ToB approaches for Barbarian to take are Runescarred Berserker, Fist of the Forest, Champion of Gwynharwyf, and/or the incarnum-fueled Totem Rager.

[Amphetryon]

Tome of Battle is not allowed because my DM says it is "overpowered" and "too much paperwork".

And all I have read from this so far is that I have to make myself over powered and ridiculous to match the party?

What ever happened to just having fun with a game, where has the fun gone?
Tier 1/0 power "pretty early on" and "Tome of Battle is overpowered" sounds like a disconnect in power level understanding at some juncture, to me.

If you need to get to the aforementioned level of power (Tier 1/0) in order to be competitive with the group and have fun, and you don't find that to be fun, that's also a problem.

[Person_Man]

I can get you to Tier 3 with Prestige Classes while still maintaining at least 1 level of Barbarian and the overall Barbarian feel. Tier 2 if you're willing to be a Gish Barbarian/Caster. But that's basically the highest you can go. What books are allowed, and what are your build goals/limits (ie, what is it that you actually want to be able to do, and do you insist on the use of any particular class levels or Feats)?

[Ryulin18]

Holy crap, It's person man. I think I've read every post you've ever done. :smallredface:

Books allowed are all except Book of Exalted Deeds and Tome of Battle. Even the Online stuff is being allowed.

Have any of you read the cityscape alternate class feats for Barbarians?
They're funny good.

The area I was looking to go down was with leap attack, power attack and general smashiness. Just reading the rune scarred berserker from unapproachable east now, divine favour is nice.

The cityscape style would make a nice charger but how do you maximise that?

[monkey3]

Mageslayer feat
Make sure to have a 10' reach or they can just 5' step out of range. Easiest way is spiked chain and it gives you trip for the mages running away.

Lion totem gives pounce.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Alright, that's it. Make the DM sign up for these forums. Or just read our posts at least.

[Person_Man]

OK then, here are you basic PrC options, assuming that you want to stay with at lest 1 level of Barbarian:

Tier 4ish Barbarian PrC options: Deepwarden, Fist of the Forrest, Frostrager, War Hulk, Frenzied Berserker, Bear Warrior, Weretouched Master (preferably unerrata'd, which would also require you to be a Shifter), Warshaper, and probably one or two others. When used correctly, any of these options will make you fairly potent at melee - dealing damage and avoiding and/or absorbing damage. There are many ways to Optimize Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087) and kill anyone in one round. But keep in mind that doing so does not increase your strategic options (ie, different things you can do), it just makes one option (hitting stuff, usually on a Charge) very strong. Optimizing any one option is self defeating past a point, because it's quite easy for a DM to create encounters which prevent you from effectively using that one option. (For example, if you make an uber Charge Barbarian, the DM can just put you on a battlefield where Charging is impossible, or add more enemies, or make his enemies flying, and so on).

Tier 3ish Barbarian PrC options: Runescarred Berserker progresses most of your Barbarian abilities and also grants you access to a small list of excellent spells (including early access to Antimagic Field) which you must scribe into your skin. Totem Rager: Basically a Totemist that also progresses Rage. Totemists and their PrC are a "build your own monster" class, with access to a wide variety of natural weapons, breath weapons, special abilities, and Skill bonuses. Warchanter (Bard/Barbarian) has decent Skills, progresses Barbarian abilities, and progresses Bardic music, which gives you access to things like Snowflake Wardance, Doomspeak, Dragonfire Inspiration, and the Warchanters special music effects.

Tier 2ish Barbarian options are very widespread. Basically any Gish build with 18+ caster levels. There are also ways to pull this off on the divine side if you prefer. For example, the Landforged Walker is 5 level Druid-ish PrC with divine caster progression. It's capstone (at ECL 10) is the Plant Shape ability, which lets you Wildshape into a plant of any size from Small to Huge, with your character level as your effective Druid level for determination of duration and maximum hit dice. Thus the rest of your class levels are free to do whatever you want with them, while maintaining the full power and flexibility of Wildshape (although limited to plants) and 18/20 divine caster progression if you want it.

Just keep in mind that unless you're a Runescarred Berserker or Champion of Gwynharwyf or Rage Mage (which have special abilities), you can't cast a spell while in a Rage, unless your DM is willing is willing to allow you to use the Righteous Wrath Feat for that purpose (which is RAW debatable). Thus if you're not using one of those options but want to use spells, you'll need to pre-buff before combat, which is strategically tricky sometimes.

[Darrin]

I won't pick up pounce for the personal reason of hating power gaming and wanting to keep my 40ft movement.


. . . hooookaaay . . .



taking a -1hp/level for +10ft move (+4 jump for leap attack)


Um. Hmmm.



feats
1st - power attack
3rd - ?
6th - Leap attack
9th+ - ?


Standard ubercharger advice would be Improved Bull Rush at 3rd, and Shock Trooper at 6th/9th. Standard ubercharger builds can be really, really boring, though.

I'd consider going Wolf Totem Barbarian for Improved Trip + Knock-Down (but ask your DM first about using the SRD version of Knock-Down instead of the Sword & Fist version). Actually, I'd go Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Dungeon Crasher Fighter 6, maybe add some wings via Dragonborn, and divebomb my enemies into the ground with Battle Jump (Unapproachable East) or Roof-Jumper (Cityscape).

If you want a more jump-focused build, Leap of the Heavens (PHBII) at 3rd, maybe Raptor School at 9th just for Eagle's Swoop (static damage modifiers multiply, the rest of the feat is crap).



So? Where to improve?

Did you take the Whirling Frenzy variant from UA? I like more attacks better than fake-HPs.

If you don't want to do Dragonborn, then consider the Earth Dwarf variant from UA, which doubles most of the cool things about being a dwarf.

Another option to consider might be Dragon Totem Barbarian for Blind-Fight, then Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment. You'd have to give up Fast Movement, but if you stick around for Barbarian 5, you can get Frightful Presence (Ex), although Dreadful Wrath (PGtF) is still better. You can add some Zhentarim Fighter and/or Sneak Attack Fighter on top of that, then mooch a ring of blinking or a few blink spells off of your fellow PCs.

If your DM is giving you grief over the Minotaur Greathammer, ask if a Kaorti Resin Jovar might be available: 18-20/x4 Crit. Jovar is in the Planar Handbook, details on Kaorti Resin can be found in the Fiend Folio and in this online article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a).



What ever happened to just having fun with a game, where has the fun gone?

I've heard good things about Saph's Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) build. If you really want to poke some fun at the casters, you could try going Full Thogaturge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195049).

[Hiro Protagonest]

And all I have read from this so far is that I have to make myself over powered and ridiculous to match the party?

What ever happened to just having fun with a game, where has the fun gone?

The fun ran as fast as it could when your friends (quotation marks may or may not apply) built familiars more powerful than warblades.

Seriously, make them sign up for these forums, or just ask them why they want to be so powerful.

If all else fails, build a druid with the Druidic Avenger UA variant, and drop the hammer before wildshaping into a bear or ape, then pick it back up.

[Ryulin18]

If all else fails, build a druid with the Druidic Avenger UA variant, and drop the hammer before wildshaping into a bear or ape, then pick it back up.

I would but the other druids monkey would kill me anyway.

DM
"The monster grapples you"
PLAYER
"I cast balor nimbus on myself, it affects the monkey too, he joins the grapple, I wildshape into a bear as a free action"

12d6 balor nimbus
+4d6+ 35 from monkey's Shillelagh'd large club (without the other 10 spells)
+4d4+25 bear claws
+3d6+20 bear jaws.

And Im not allowed a x4 crit weapon as a barb...Sweet balls

[Ryulin18]

PLAYER - "I cast balor nimbus on myself, it affects the 8HD 28str monkey too, he joins the grapple, I wildshape into a bear as a free action"

12d6 balor nimbus
+4d6+ 35 from monkey's Shillelagh'd large club (without the other 10 spells)
+4d4+25 bear claws
+3d6+20 bear jaws.

Welcome to level 5 kids :smallmad:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Sounds like a classic case of "it's magic!" and "you can't swing a 30 pound hammer in real life!".

[Suddo]

And Im not allowed a x4 crit weapon as a barb...Sweet balls

Yep and your not allowed Tome of Battle.
This is the backwards logic that infurates me too and most people on the forums. I can appreciate not wanting ToB for paperwork but saying that the Barb can't have a x4 crit weapon is silly. If you were in the group I'd give you Half-Minotaur Template (for free) and a stupid homebrew weapon so you can try and keep up. Maybe Gestalt Duskblade for you. You'd still be falling behind and that is why everyone said, Advice for Dwarf Barb in a group of Tier 1s: Don't. I've felt this exact feeling and try and prevent it in my games.

[Randomguy]

I would but the other druids monkey would kill me anyway.

DM
"The monster grapples you"
PLAYER
"I cast balor nimbus on myself, it affects the monkey too, he joins the grapple, I wildshape into a bear as a free action"

But.. But that's not even a druid spell! And you can't even cast it while grappling! :smallfurious:

How is it your group can optimize so well but can't see that melee needs a boost to keep up with magic?

Let's see: You could have someone permanantly polymorph you into a centaur so you can use leap attack in combination with mounted feats.

It's possible to optimize intimidate for a lockdown build (Shneeky did it), but you need good charisma for that so that's not really an option here.

Either a full gish barbarian or runescarred berserker seems like the best option, here.

[Hiro Protagonest]

How is it your group can optimize so well but can't see that melee needs a boost to keep up with magic?

*puts on glasses*

I believe the correct term for this type of player is "munchkin", which will cheat to attain as much power as possible. This specific branch likes to play self-buffer casters, so they can stomp things in melee, yet still have the power of spellcasters.

[nedz]

IfWhen it gets to the point where you are just there to carry the heavy bags: take a few levels in Frenzied Berserker - just make sure you're Will save is not too hot. This will level the playing field and give you some entertainment.

[Ryulin18]

If you were in the group I'd give you Half-Minotaur Template (for free) and a stupid homebrew weapon so you can try and keep up.

And that makes you a sweety.


POINT OF TOPIC FOUND! BE NICE TO YOUR MELEE CHARACTERS, THEY LOVED YOU ENOUGH TO NOT BE CODZILLA!
Except for chain fighters...sunder the weapon and never let them see another again.

[Hiro Protagonest]

And that makes you a sweety.


POINT OF TOPIC FOUND! BE NICE TO YOUR MELEE CHARACTERS, THEY LOVED YOU ENOUGH TO NOT BE CODZILLA!
Except for chain fighters...sunder the weapon and never let them see another again.

...Did you seriously just call spiked chain tripper/Stand Still builds overpowered?

[Ryulin18]

But.. But that's not even a druid spell! And you can't even cast it while grappling! :smallfurious:.

Arcane Heirophant. By 20th he will have 18th caster level in both, his monkey will have a tarrasque's HD, Stats, DR, SR and still have some more buffs to be added. But you can't kill it because he just goes to the forest for 24 hours and another one arrives that instantly becomes the same.

[Voyager_I]

Tome of Battle is not allowed because my DM says it is "overpowered" and "too much paperwork".

I am changing my suggestion from "maybe this group isn't the best match for you" to "you shouldn't play with them".

It's one thing if they're making crazy powerful characters and everyone knows what kind of game it's going to be, but if they're going to let the casters go all-out while calling Tome of Battle overpowered? Not only is it the wrong kind of game for someone with your interests, but the DM doesn't actually know what he's talking about.

Unless you're being ludicrously biased in your explanations, the whole thing reeks of a bad group and some poor experiences waiting to happen.

[Mithril Leaf]

Here's how you can be competitive with this. Take Barb 1, swapping out for lion totem. Now take 6 levels of psychic warrior, or whatever it is and make a beholder mage/ur-priest. That should teach them proper.
Seriously, don't try to be a proper barbarian in a tier 1/0 game.

[Ryulin18]

the DM doesn't actually know what he's talking about.

The DM is a power gamer himself, with a HUGE bias for casters. It's practically go gish or go home.

[Psyren]

If you go with Totem Rager, you can get gish levels of power/utility without becoming a caster. You'll be able to pounce, teleport, fly, walk through walls, fight effectively at range, fight in the dark, communicate telepathically, tank massive amounts of damage etc.

[Amphetryon]

The DM is a power gamer himself, with a HUGE bias for casters. It's practically go gish or go home.

Most folks around here will tell you that a power gamer who finds ToB "overpowered" and "too much paperwork" is some variety of oxymoron. That said, some variety of Totem Rager (whether you actually take the PrC or not) is going to be as close as you'll get to the casters' power level without casting yourself, from a Barbarian base and with those stats. That said, your personal aversion to Pounce will severely limit your ability to contribute anything like on par with the casters. Are you sure you want to play in this game, under those restrictions?

[Ryulin18]

If you go with Totem Rager, you can get gish levels of power/utility without becoming a caster. You'll be able to pounce, teleport, fly, walk through walls, fight effectively at range, fight in the dark, communicate telepathically, tank massive amounts of damage etc.

What book and is their some sort of layout for levels and abilities?

[Person_Man]

What book and is their some sort of layout for levels and abilities?

Magic of Incarnum. It's a very difficult, but rewarding rule set.

The chassis for the Totemist (or Whatever/Totemist/Totem Rager) is that you get soulmelds, chakra binds, and essentia. You can choose new abilities every morning, and once "shaped" they are on all day.

Soulmelds provide modest benefits, like Feat, Uncanny Dodge, or bonuses to various things (Skills, land speed, Grapple, etc). At 1st level you start with 2, at 20th level you get up to 9.

Soulmelds can be bound to chakra (item) slots. Doing so prevents you from using a magic item in that slot, but provides an additional, powerful ability. Progressively better chakra slots are "opened" as you gain levels. At 2nd level chakra binds includes abilities like 4 claws, Stone to Flesh, Pounce, and move action Dimension Door. By 17th level it include such goodies as the Swarm template, Ethereal Jaunt, Blink, and other tricks. You get one chakra bind at 2nd level, and up to five at 18th level.

Essentia is the fuel for soulmelds. How much essentia you invest in a soulmeld determines how strong your bonuses for that soulmeld (and any chakra binds for that soulmeld) are. At any given level you can generally have enough essentia to fully fuel about half of your soulmelds. But essentia can be reallocated as a swift action, and many Totemist soulmelds are quite useful without any essentia. So if you're strategic about it, your Totemist is generally running at full power all day long.

In general, it's not difficult for a mid level Totemist to have 8+ attacks per round, with a large damage bonus to all of them, pounce, special movement of some sort, a breath weapon or magical attack of some sort, and a couple of interesting utility abilities. And you can change them every morning.

[Axier]

I saw an amazing "Dragoon" build by one of my friends that basically jumped into a target, did like x2 weapon damage x3 Str damage and all sorts of other situational based damage, and didn't have to really worry about any strange environmental hinderances like rough terrain. Its alot of RAW, mixed in a bunch of books.

Did have to worry about celing height...

Also, If you don't mind another race, Hengeyokai (Oriental Adventures) is a LA+0 shapechanger, that gains a hybrid and animal form that can provide great bonuses like +2 CON, STR or DEX, for only -2 WIS. (Racoon Dog for STR or Badger for CON) You also then qualify for Warshaper (Complete Warrior), with a Full BAB entry class, you can qualify for your 5th level. 1st level you become immune to crits and stun and get the ability to technically infinatly grow natural weapons (although 1000 tentacles is wierd), and 2nd and/or 3rd you get +4 STR and +4 CON in a hybrid form and +5ft reach that no one knows about untill you use it.

[Ryulin18]

If you go with Totem Rager, you can get gish levels of power/utility without becoming a caster. You'll be able to pounce, teleport, fly, walk through walls, fight effectively at range, fight in the dark, communicate telepathically, tank massive amounts of damage etc.

Just read it in Magic of Incarnum. Hilarious build options! Thanks for the tip Person Man, Psyren and any others I can't find who proposed this option.

Its 8am and I just finished 14 hours at work...Time to go dream of my wolverine character rip off.