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cowsay
2012-02-29, 10:07 PM
We've given spontaneous spellcasters in our groups a little nudge by updating the spells known table. I'm wondering what others might think about this? So far, we've found this to improve the game. More people want to play spontaneous casters, which has made our gameplay quicker. People are spending less time going through books and selecting spells each day.

Yeah, I know that casters are already more powerful than non-casters, we've done other things to augment that and aren't having balance problems, for the most part (that's actually due to good DMing).

Anyway, I'd really appreciate some thoughts on this spells known table.



{table=head]Lvl| SP|E|L|L|S ||KN|O|W|N
| 0th| 1st| 2nd| 3rd| 4th| 5th| 6th| 7th| 8th| 9th
1st| 5| 2| —| —| —| —| —| —| —| —
2nd| 6| 3| —| —| —| —| —| —| —| —
3rd| 7| 3| 2| —| —| —| —| —| —| —
4th| 8| 4| 3| —| —| —| —| —| —| —
5th| 9| 5| 3| 2| —| —| —| —| —| —
6th| 9| 5| 4| 3| —| —| —| —| —| —
7th| 9| 6| 5| 3| 2| —| —| —| —| —
8th| 9| 6| 5| 4| 3| —| —| —| —| —
9th| 9| 6| 6| 5| 3| 2| —| —| —| —
10th| 9| 6| 6| 5| 4| 3| —| —| —| —
11th| 9| 6| 6| 6| 5| 3| 2| —| —| —
12th| 9| 6| 6| 6| 5| 4| 3| —| —| —
13th| 9| 6| 6| 6| 6| 5| 3| 2| —| —
14th| 9| 6| 6| 6| 6| 5| 4| 3| —| —
15th| 9| 6| 6| 6| 6| 6| 5| 3| 2| —
16th| 9| 6| 6| 6| 6| 6| 5| 4| 3| —
17th| 9| 6| 6| 6| 6| 6| 6| 5| 3| 2
18th| 9| 6| 6| 6| 6| 6| 6| 5| 4| 3
19th| 9| 6| 6| 6| 6| 6| 6| 6| 5| 3
20th| 9| 6| 6| 6| 6| 6| 6| 6| 5| 4[/table]

Grod_The_Giant
2012-03-01, 02:39 PM
Seems about right.

ShriekingDrake
2012-03-03, 09:07 PM
I like this. It makes being a spontaneous caster more attractive. Moreover, it gives a slightly, but not extremely, wider range of spells. How often can a spontaneous caster trade out spells? In a few of my games, we allow one spell upon advancing a level--but not in between.

I think, as you described, the meta aspects of not having players rummaging through books constantly is a gift. (We actually require all spell casters to have the spells they want to use printed on index cards so they can be held as memorized for the day, and tossed on to the table at a moment's notice so everyone can read them. Most of us have our favorites already printed on cards, and if you want to add something new, you have to work for it--and you can't use it until the card is created, but I digress.)

Madara
2012-03-04, 04:01 PM
So you're also giving them access to higher level spells at the same rate as wizards? Cause now they have more spells per day at an equal level. So this combined with the more spells known brings them higher up. But you guys don't have balance problems, so no worries.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-03-04, 06:45 PM
So you're also giving them access to higher level spells at the same rate as wizards? Cause now they have more spells per day at an equal level. So this combined with the more spells known brings them higher up. But you guys don't have balance problems, so no worries.

Meh... a caster is a caster is a caster, and they can all break the game if they want to.

Madara
2012-03-04, 06:57 PM
To this dear sir, I disagree.

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

If casters are kept Tier 3 and below, there is no problem, unless the players are specificity trying to break the game.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-03-04, 07:32 PM
To this dear sir, I disagree.


If casters are kept Tier 3 and below, there is no problem, unless the players are specificity trying to break the game.

True, but the only way to do that with a 9th level caster is to dramatically limit their spell list, like the Beguiler and Warmage, so that the game-breaking spells are not there.

ShriekingDrake
2012-03-05, 03:00 PM
I agree. It's the spells and not the progression that's the problem. I'm interested in this updated table because it will encourage more players to be more limited in the spell choices they have. That is, I think some folks who play wizards will choose sorcerers to get an additional two spells and spend less time looking everything up.

For instance, in our games, we don't allow celerity, timestop, and other massive time affecting spells. We limit shapechange--though it's still quite good. Gate also has limitations.

The idea is for the game to be FUN and less time spent looking at books in-game is better. And, spontaneous casters encourage more out of game prep, which I also think is some good.