Low level bard.

[Suddo]

So I'm gonna start up a D&D campaign for a bunch of people new to the game and would like to balance it pretty well. Right now they players will be:
Factotum (skill-monkey that will Chameleon out)
Warblade (The melee, might be a trip build will talk to player about it)
Worldthought Medic (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/worldthought-medic) (The player wants to heal and do support, the forum suggested this one)
And the Bard (Silverbrow Human going into Sublime Chord)

Now I've never played a bard, I've always had too many high power builds flowing around in my head too just want to sit down and play a fun character, and look at them at level they look horrible to play.
They only get 2 Cantrips a day and can only sing and dance 1 time a day. This seems like the player will be shooting their crossbow more than I had originally expected. Plus I feel the Warblade will be completely outshining the Bard.
So my question: What should I do? Will they be fine? Should I use the PF spell progression (I don't have the PF books only PDFs)? Should I make the Bard have more Dex?

Little more detail:
I'm playing Sunless Citadel into Rage Forge (or whatever its called) into Red Hand of Doom. Or something like that.
The build @Level 1:

Silverbrow Human Bard
32 Point Buy:

Strength: 8
Dexterity: 14
Constitution: 12
Intelligence: 14
Wisdom: 8
Charisma: 18

Feats:
Melodic Casting (Complete Mage pg44)
Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic pg17)


Ideas?

Edit: Couple of things: The bard will be focued on being the Face and the Encyclopedia (Social and Knowledge) while the Factotum will get everything else (Search, Spot, Disable Trap, Open Lock, Stealth all that jazz).

[Hunter Killer]

90% of playing a Bard at extremely low levels is being a skill monkey and That Guy With All The Answers. If you don't let him do that, he'll suck eggs until he levels more.

Dag out the roleplaying, and try to get the Bard player rolling some Bardic Knowledge checks. Pass him the information rather than telling everyone at the table, and let him tell it via roleplay.

[Suddo]

90% of playing a Bard at extremely low levels is being a skill monkey and That Guy With All The Answers. If you don't let him do that, he'll suck eggs until he levels more.

Dag out the roleplaying, and try to get the Bard player rolling some Bardic Knowledge checks. Pass him the information rather than telling everyone at the table, and let him tell it via roleplay.

Sense I have the Factotum on the table should I split their requirements? Like have the Bard be the Encyclopedia and Face; and then just let the Factotum do all the traps and sneaking?

Edit: Oh would giving him a simple level 1 wand or something help?

[Golden Ladybug]

One interesting thing about Bards is that nowhere does it say you have to stop singing and/or dancing after you start. You can have IC or DFI running all day if you choose.

Moving on; If you want to move into Sublime Chord, you won't need to compete with the Warblade. For the early Levels, DFIing the Warblade will solve problems, and the Factotum will thank you for those extra d6s when it is spinning its Quickrazors/Dropping its -2 Cursed Sword.

Getting a Familiar isn't really an optimal choice; they don't give you much unless you want to grab one off of the Improved Familiar list, and by the time you can do that, you won't need them anymore. So, strike that, and grab Extra Music (CAdv, If I'm not mistaken) which makes Bardic Music respectable. You also want Melodic Casting to drop spells while maintaining your DFI and Lyric Casting turns your Extra Music feat into an additional 1st level spell later in the game, which is awesome.

Taking something you can keep up all day for your Perform Skill is something I recommend. Perform: Dance is nice, as long as you maintain that you're Bard is dancing a small jig or skipping wherever they go. Either that or get one of the nifty Masterwork Instruments that give cool bonuses when you use them.

Finally, free proficiency with Whips is nice, as you can use it to Trip People while you dance around like a maniac, which will probably contribute more than pelting away with a crossbow. A Harmonising Weapon (Bow of Songs is a favourite to slap that enchantment onto, as the Bow of Songs is awesome) will be great when you have the dosh to pay for it, but a mundane Whip and a Rapier will do you well early on.

And Perform for petty cash when appropriate. Gotta love Petty Cash :smallwink:

[Particle_Man]

If you can do the PF bard go for it (it is online as the pathfinder srd, btw). And bards are jack of all trades - so everyone will outshine you at what they do best and warblade does meelee best. You are the face guy, the buffer, and will have some role to play in meelee, ranged, spells, etc., later on.

What is weird is that there is also a factotum in the party and they are also Jack of all trades characters. Although I guess with sublime chord you will eventually be the spell guy, which is a plus in 3.5.

[holywhippet]

I'd recommend they use thrown weapons moreso that crossbows since you lose time reloading otherwise.

The main problem I see is that you already have a skill monkey in the party and skills are what the bard excels at.

Bards are a good support character in combat, but they tend to be progressively better the larger the party is since their basic bard song effects all allies.

As someone else said, I'd suggest having plenty of talking checks and knowledge checks which a bard tends to be good at.

[Suddo]

Oh and fell free to nit pick the build. What should I get instead of Improved Familiar?

Basically right now I'm trying to fill this 4th character I like the idea of one of the characters being Dragon Blooded due to the RHoD campaign, the original campaign we were going to play. Where at that level you had some spells to do.

Doesn't Performing take up all your actions? Can you trip and such while dancing/sing?

Once again I'll ask: IF you had a suggestion what would you suggest be in place of the bard. Preferably a spellcaster-ist character and not Dread Necro (because I don't want to deal with that).

[Dr_S]

if you think you're going to be at the really low levels for a while, or have a group that doesn't like to rest a lot, perhaps consider more music (feat) from Eberron, 3 extra song usages per day. if that's what you want to do. (not generally worth it beyond like level 3 though)

remember also that your music lasts 5 rounds after you stop singing so generally 1 use lasts a full battle at that level.

you may want to see if your DM will allow you to use the PF version of bardic music, instead of usages you get rounds, to start a song is a standard, to maintain it is a free, but at first level you get 4+cha rounds so if a fight only lasts 2 rounds you haven't blown your allotment for the day.

The other thing, firing arrows you aren't going to need str, or wisdom, and bards shouldn't be front line generally (especially firing arrows) so I think you can afford a hit in the con, bring the CHA up to 18, you're already at a disadvantage compared to most casters because at any given level you're casting a level behind them, so you need the CHA sometimes to compensate for the lower DC. Remember your high skill points high charisma makes you more or less the default diplomat for the group. Bardic knowledge can be fun if your group doesn't run combat heavy adventures, but if they do or you hate fun there are ways to ditch Bardic Knowledge for other stuff, but I'm not the expert on that.

At low levels yeah, you'll probably be shooting a bit, but as you level into spells and more music you'll find some fun spells (Glitterdust)

I'd recommend
8
14
12
14
8
18

[Suddo]

I'm kind of leaning towards PF Bard. Does the PF Bard have too much of a power increase, it doesn't look like it but I'm not certain.

Oh by the way, I am the DM and am building the party but I don't want to just hand them a Sorc with no crazy spells, though it is an idea. Anyone like that idea?

[Keld Denar]

PF bard is a direct nerf. Don't go for it. Bad bad bad badness.

I'd 2nd Extra Music at 1st level. IC is your big thing. You need it more than once per day. At higher levels, when you have more music than you know what to do with, pick up Lyric Spell (CAdv), and convert those musics into spells/day. Extra Music by itself gives what is effectively an extra 3rd level spell/day, like Haste.

At 1, take Extra Music and DFI as your 2 feats. You can handle using fire at the first few levels, not much will be immune at level 1. At 3, take Songs of the Heart for another +1 to IC, which should be 3 by now (1 for IC, 1 for SotH, 1 for Inspirational Boost spell). Thats +3d6 fire, which is very nice. I like Lyric Spell for 6th, but you can get Obtain Familiar or Dragontouched (needed for Draconic Heritage to change your DFI energy type, if desired).

[Golden Ladybug]

you may want to see if your DM will allow you to use the PF version of bardic music, instead of usages you get rounds, to start a song is a standard, to maintain it is a free, but at first level you get 4+cha rounds so if a fight only lasts 2 rounds you haven't blown your allotment for the day.

NO

This is a huge nerf, absolutely huge. A Single use of Bardic Music will last you the whole fight, regardless of how long that fight goes for, or how short. The Pathfinder Bard risks running out of gas every time they use their main class feature, and you are burning your resources fast. Extra Music is one of the best options for an early game bard, infinitely superior than using the PF Bardic Music.

And you can perform other actions while maintaining a Performance, so you can make trip attempts, fire your Shortbow/Bow of Songs, Fence with your Rapier or cut off the BBEG's head with a Vorpal Fiddle.

However, taking an Perform skill that leaves at least one hand free is essential, as convincing your DM that you can play your Lyre while stabbing someone with your Rapier is a tricky thing to do (I advocate the usage of an Instrument Blade, from CAdv). Dance, Sing or Oratory are all great for that, and Melodic Casting will eventually let you do that Buffing while also putting your Sublime Chord casting to good work.

[Dr_S]

I wouldn't say it's a huge nerf in that how many level 1 encounters go more than 8 rounds?

More Music is good for level 1 or 2, but I mentioned this as an alternative because it's a way to possibly get in 2 encounters per day without having to spend a feat... specifically a feat that starts to lose usefulness at lvl 3 because there's a point at which you level but you aren't likely to use more songs per day despite levelling.

A feat that he could use for say, rapid reload so that he can move, fire his cross bow and maintain his song all in one round.

that and I wasn't familiar with lyric spell.

[gkathellar]

I wouldn't say it's a huge nerf in that how many level 1 encounters go more than 8 rounds?

No, but here's the thing: the standard encounter is expected to go on for 4-5 rounds. This means a bard with extra music (easy enough to retrain out at a later level) can manage 5 encounters/day. A PF bard can manage 2. At later levels, the comparison becomes even worse, since the 3.5 bard scales faster.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Switch his feats to Melodic Casting and Dragonfire Inspiration, you can't even get Obtain Familiar until 3rd level anyway. He doesn't have to stop singing between fights, they can do the standard four encounters/day on one use of Inspire Courage. With Melodic Casting he doesn't have to stop singing when he casts a spell. His 3rd level feat should be Song of the Heart, for an extra +1 to his Inspire Courage, and at 6th level (if he's good-aligned) he should get Words of Creation. He should be able to get a Badge of Valor before 3rd level, and be sure he picks the spell Inspirational Boost. Having a familiar isn't really worth spending a feat on unless he also takes Improved Familiar, he would be better off with Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) and/or Leadership. Bards can use shortbows, which are better than crossbows unless he has a Str penalty.

[Pilo]

Have you consider half-elf bard's soothing voice ability (half-elf bard's alternate level ability in races of destiny) which give you a calm emotion effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/calmEmotions.htm) instead of countersong?

It is kind of useful.

[gkathellar]

Have you consider half-elf bard's soothing voice ability (half-elf bard's alternate level ability in races of destiny) which give you a calm emotion effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/calmEmotions.htm) instead of countersong?

It is kind of useful.

But ... you have to be a half-elf. :smallfrown:

[Tyger]

A tonne of the advice you are getting above is great, but first things first... what is the optimization level of the group? That seems to be a pretty low powered group, mostly tier three. Warblade is nice, a great front-liner with some versatility. Factotum is one of my favorite classes, again due to the versatility (in this case insane levels of it!) and moderate power level. Medic is another decent balance class.

Bard, on its own, is a nice solid tier three as well, fitting right in with that group. That said, a Melodic Casting, DFI bard with all the IC optimization tricks, going into Sublime Chord is not your average bard, it is highly optimized and will quite literally destroy encounters - not because it is obscene in its own right, but rather because it turns your party into monsters... which is fun as hell (I have the aforementioned bard in play and love him) but if your group and you as DM aren't ready for that, it can really upset the balance.

The other factor to consider is what role the bard wants to fill. With a factotum in the group, you don't need to look over the skill-monkey role too hard - that's filled. With only one other frontliner though, a snowflake wardance bardsader might be an option, which can work nicely with some IC and DFI options as well. If you are going caster optimization, the Sublime Chord is your usual go-to, and its a good one, so take a look at various lead ins for that class.

[Flickerdart]

There are a couple of ways to go with a low-level Bard.

MS Persist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8595585) goes off at level 6 without flaws, and at 3rd with flaws. There aren't many useful 1st level spells to Persist though, so might as well wait until 6th anyway. It does require a Faerun feat to work though, so if setting material is an issue, this option is out.

By 6th level it's also possible to build a really nice Fear bard, using a Gnome base and their sub levels.

Before that, your best bet is Extra Music, Song of the White Raven (for swift action activation) and a masterwork instrument (from CAdv, I think) to increase your bonuses.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Another option is to take Dragonborn feat as well as DFI. Sure, you don't need it to qualify for DFI, but if you do, then you can take Draconic Aura and Draconic Heretage (War Dragon) later on for more party buffing (Senses for bonus to Initiative!) and 'no, you really aren't immune to the bonus damage' respectively.

[Talya]

If you want to go Sublime Chord, I won't tell you not to do so. It's a great PrC...and thematically, I really used to love it. Today, however, any bard I play will be single-classed.

As I said in earlier threads:


Forget PrCs. It's not that there aren't any good ones...bard has great PrCs...but you can build a bard 20 that does everything better than factotums or changelings.


Silverbrow Human, Savage Bard variant. Replace Bardic Knowledge with Bardic Knack. Replace Fascinate song with Healing Hymn ACF. Replace Suggestion song with Song of the Heart. Other feats: Dragonfire Inspiration, Melodic Casting, Jack of All Trades. Perhaps lingering song if you find yourself twisting a lot of different song types. Use a pair of crystal echoblades and go to town.


I think I've advocated this build way too often...

[Feralventas]

PF bard is a direct nerf. Don't go for it. Bad bad bad badness.
.

Okay, I know I'm incompetent at optimisation, but I really feel the need to comment contrary to this. Yes, PF's Bard is not able to IC all day with one use, but frankly I'd demand constitution checks for attempting to continuously sing, dance, or talk for more than 6 hours at a time; It's not RAW but it's absurd to have someone trying to keep that one use going all day without the Endurance feat. It also shoots anything resembling stealth in the foot as most mooks can make the DC10 listen check to hear a bard prancing about the place while inspiring their comrades.

PF's bard runs low on steam but it doesn't run Out. Having IC as a much more limited resource is not a character-breaking debuff, and having an actual spell at 1st level is a significant improvement, while having infinite cantrip use keeps them in the game longer, especially in non-combat situations.
-Unwitting Ally cast to get flanking or avoid AOO's.
-Message to coordinate with separated party members.
-Ghost Sound to guide guards where you want
-Haunted Fey Aspect, DR1/cold iron at 1st level, albeit only from 1 target.
-Prestidigitation, because why the heck not.

That a Bard has limited uses of Bardic Music and spells hardly means that they can't contribute. They have decent to-hit capacity at low levels, and plenty of mundane skills to make them worthwhile.



Back on topic, I'd suggest having the Bard and the Factotem work together to decide who's going to be doing what. Both classes are skill-heavy, and avoiding overlap will be beneficial to both characters and players.

[Keld Denar]

It's not just that. IC plain old sucks in PF. IC is not hard to boost in 3.5. You can get it up to a level where it is actually relevant in combat, with an action. In Pathfinder, unless you are cribbing a bunch of material, it just scales too slow to be actually useful. Also, the magic next in PF hurts bards, who actually get some pretty decent disabling spells.

Basically, PF breaks IC. Not just the amount of IC (which is never enough) but also the amount of IC which makes it actually relevant.

[Suddo]

Wow I just woke up and I have all this great information.

Okay let me explain my place right now a little more. I'm building a 4 player group of Tier 3ish characters to introduce the players to D&D. I picked Tier 3 because no player will end up with the everyone else gets to do cool things but I have to sit here with my stick and hit things. My other concern is a matter of who gets the spot light more.
The player who is getting the bard wants to play a spellcaster so I want to make sure that the bard is kind-of spellcastery.
As far as optimization, I'm fine with some, right now I dumped Obtain Fam for Melodic Casting to make the Bard not have to use Concentrate and I also used the more min/maxed stat array posted earlier, though I will agree that +3d6 fire damage to everything is a little overboard of what I'd originally planned.
Yes I will be giving the bard a spell sword, or some variant, when level appropriate I'll also probably give out some wands, of the cool type and not of the awesome type. But right now I'm looking at the Bard and at the Warblade and thinking the Warblade is going to steal the spotlight from the Bard, and perhaps even the psionic but that player will be actively be trying to break the game, so I'm trying to beef up the bard without tipping him over the edge later on, I realize how awesome Sublime Chord is.

I AM FULLY DESIGNING THE CHARACTERS, I'LL ALLOW ANY BOOKS I SEE FIT. The psionic is a 3rd party thing. And I'm willing to homebrew a little, as stated with just grabbing the PF spell progression and slapping it on the 3.5 bard, not infinite Cantrips though. But my main concern is balance.

Edit: As far as dual skill-monkey goes I've already kind of fixed that. The Bard will be the Face and Encyclopedia, while the Factotum will be pretty much everything else.

[Golden Ladybug]

Hmm...A Bard can easily fulfil the role of Spellcaster, but if I was giving a "Spellcaster" to a New Player, I wouldn't be giving them a Bard. Because for most of their Career, they're not really doing what a Spellcaster is expected to do...unless you're aiming to play the Red Mage, I suppose.

If you want to stay in/around Tier 3, I'd give this player a Beguiler or maybe a Warmage (with a little tinkering with the spell list to make it more than just blastiness) depending on what they want to be doing with their spell slots, because that'll give them what they're asking for.

Because saying "Here is your spellcaster, it can hardly ever cast spells and sings a lot instead" isn't what you want to do if you want them to keep playing. Especially if they're new to PnP RPGs.

[Suddo]

If you want to stay in/around Tier 3, I'd give this player a Beguiler or maybe a Warmage (with a little tinkering with the spell list to make it more than just blastiness) depending on what they want to be doing with their spell slots, because that'll give them what they're asking for.
The main problem with the Beguiler is that he really steps on the Factotum's toes as he has all the fun Trapfinding things. I guess I could just ignore that and not give the player any skills in that regard.
Man this whole thread has just made me want to play a bard.

[Curious]

It's not just that. IC plain old sucks in PF. IC is not hard to boost in 3.5. You can get it up to a level where it is actually relevant in combat, with an action. In Pathfinder, unless you are cribbing a bunch of material, it just scales too slow to be actually useful. Also, the magic next in PF hurts bards, who actually get some pretty decent disabling spells.

Basically, PF breaks IC. Not just the amount of IC (which is never enough) but also the amount of IC which makes it actually relevant.

Actually, the PF bard foes get some buffs over the 3.5 bard. Really, the only nerf it got was to bardic performance, and even that get a few built in boosts (doesn't require an action to maintain, can cast while using performance), and grabbing Lingering Performance pretty much means you always have enough rounds of music to spare. The rest of the class is pretty much a straight upgrade over the 3.5 bard.

[holywhippet]

Basically right now I'm trying to fill this 4th character I like the idea of one of the characters being Dragon Blooded due to the RHoD campaign, the original campaign we were going to play. Where at that level you had some spells to do.


If you still want to be dragon blooded, consider just being a sorcerer. They may not be as good as a wizard, depending on who you ask, but they will cover the lack of arcane casting abilities present in the rest of the party.