Why does Mettle combine Will and Fortitude?

[TuggyNE]

I was surprised when I discovered Mettle; it seemed kinda crazy to have a single class feature act like evasion for both Fort and Will saves. I still don't really get the rationale, so could someone try to explain it to me?

[Dumbledore lives]

Just about everything that targets reflex allows a save for half, meaning that evasion comes up a huge amount. Fort and Will have a lot less comparatively, especially Will, so a class feature dealing with both makes sense, and is of about the same usefulness.

[legomaster00156]

Evasion sharpens your reflexes, while Mettle is just that: it strengthens your endurance and your will.
In terms of mechanics, I don't get it, either.

[Hirax]

Mettle comes up less often than evasion in my experience. If offered a choice, I'd pick evasion every time, unless I knew which would be more useful in a given campaign via DM mindreading or something.

[ArcGygas]

Because sometimes other classes need nice things. :smallwink:

And, honestly, most things that require a Fort or Will save or all-or-nothing. Not all of them have effects of "Save and suck anyways!"

I mean, you still have to make the save, too.

[Psyren]

Because there are probably more "Reflex Half" effects than "Will Half" and "Fortitude Half" combined.

So to make Mettle fairer/more attractive a choice, it was beefed up a bit more than Evasion.

[TuggyNE]

I guess what I would probably personally prefer, mechanics-wise, is to have most (if not all) the classes that have current-Mettle given a split-up version, so that their actual class features remain the same. That would leave it more obvious that classes with only one or the other were still possible. (I can imagine a full-caster PrC that might only give Will-mettle, for example, and there might be some PrC or base class that should only grant Fort-mettle.)

However, I guess they just generalized the common special case of combined Will and Fort, for the reasons given.

[DigoDragon]

And, honestly, most things that require a Fort or Will save or all-or-nothing. Not all of them have effects of "Save and suck anyways!"

That's true, most Fort/Will saves are of the "all-or-nothing" type. Off the top of my head I can only think of the "Cause X Wounds" spells where you get a Will save for half damage as benefiting from Mettle.

[Jack_Simth]

That's true, most Fort/Will saves are of the "all-or-nothing" type. Off the top of my head I can only think of the "Cause X Wounds" spells where you get a Will save for half damage as benefiting from Mettle.Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm), Slay Living (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/slayLiving.htm), Finger of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fingerOfDeath.htm), Destruction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/destruction.htm), Forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm), Phantasmal Killer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantasmalKiller.htm), and Weird (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/weird.htm) come to mind as being potentially affected by Mettle; they all have consequences even on a successful saving throw (in the case of Phantasmal Killer and Weird, while they may be Will Negates, they're also Fort Partial; all the others are will half, will partial, or fort partial, although many of them are "see text" as well). Oh yes, and Harm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/harm.htm), but that could be considered to be part of the Inflict line.

Out of Core, Mettle is hilarious when you've got a wizard or sorcerer that's overly fond of the Orb line.

But yes, for the most part, there's a rather lot more "reflex half" effects than there are "will partial" and "fort partial" effects.

[Person_Man]

I agree with the general consensus that Will and Fort were put together because "Fort Partial" and "Will Partial" Saves are comparatively rare.

But even though they are rarer then "Reflex Partial" effects, as some have already listed, it does provide protection again some important effects. Chill Touch, Cloudkill, Destruction, Disintegrate, Finger of Death, Phantasmal Killer, Prismatic Spray, Prismatic Wall, Ray of Exhaustion, Shout, Greater Shout, Slay Living, Sound Burst, Cause Fear, Chaos Hammer, Fear, Inflict X, Harm, Holy Smite, Order's Wrath, Scare, Unholy Blight, Shatter, Horrid Wilting, Cure X, plus dozens of non-core spells. It also occasionally protects you from the partial effects of various Fear abilities, Poisons, Diseases, a couple of Binder Vestige effects, a few magic item abilities, and so on.


Protip: If you have Mettle, buy the Tabard of Valor (Complete Champion pg 142, 16,000 gp). When reduced to 50% hit points or less, it grants you Mettle. If you already have Mettle, you gain Improved Mettle (which works just like Improved Evasion, but for Will and Fort Saves). Although I wouldn't suggest purposefully walking around with your hit points at 50%, it's still very potent when it is on.

[ericgrau]

Tangent: I saw a couple items in MiC that also worked at low health, giving bonus damage and something else. I was thinking of making a final fantasy limit breaker character who suddenly got buff at low health and might even stay at low health on purpose. Perhaps in combination with an ally with shield other and/or temporary HP. But alas there were only 2 such items in MiC so I scrapped the idea. Now I'm wondering again.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

But even though they are rarer then "Reflex Partial" effects, as some have already listed, it does provide protection again some important effects. Chill Touch, Cloudkill, Destruction, Disintegrate, Finger of Death, Phantasmal Killer, Prismatic Spray, Prismatic Wall, Ray of Exhaustion, Shout, Greater Shout, Slay Living, Sound Burst, Cause Fear, Chaos Hammer, Fear, Inflict X, Harm, Holy Smite, Order's Wrath, Scare, Unholy Blight, Shatter, Horrid Wilting, Cure X, plus dozens of non-core spells. It also occasionally protects you from the partial effects of various Fear abilities, Poisons, Diseases, a couple of Binder Vestige effects, a few magic item abilities, and so on. .RAI is clear that evasion should help these. Because casters don't need another thing they can do that a rogue or monk can't (even specifically PrC'd cas

[deuxhero]

Tangent: I saw a couple items in MiC that also worked at low health, giving bonus damage and something else. I was thinking of making a final fantasy limit breaker character who suddenly got buff at low health and might even stay at low health on purpose. Perhaps in combination with an ally with shield other and/or temporary HP. But alas there were only 2 such items in MiC so I scrapped the idea. Now I'm wondering again.

Final Fantasy?

I'm thinking "Danger Mario" myself.

[Asgardian]

I was surprised when I discovered Mettle; it seemed kinda crazy to have a single class feature act like evasion for both Fort and Will saves. I still don't really get the rationale, so could someone try to explain it to me?

Look at it like this
Fortitude saves check against your physical toughness
Will saves check against your mental toughness

While evasion helps you avoid damage, Mettle lets you make a "gut check" to endure the damage

[Coidzor]

Tangent: I saw a couple items in MiC that also worked at low health, giving bonus damage and something else. I was thinking of making a final fantasy limit breaker character who suddenly got buff at low health and might even stay at low health on purpose. Perhaps in combination with an ally with shield other and/or temporary HP. But alas there were only 2 such items in MiC so I scrapped the idea. Now I'm wondering again.

There's even that alternate rage that only kicks in when one is at a fraction of one's HP automatically.

[hex0]

Mettle means you are a total badass. I mean, look at the art for the Hexblade. You think he gives a crap? The crunch for the rest of the class is meh, but you get the idea.

[Leon]

Improved Mettle .

Is it possible to gain it any other way at all?

[Hirax]

Is it possible to gain it any other way at all?

I think there's a way in Pathfinder. I'm of the opinion that you can UMD the tabard to make it think you're below 50% HP via the activate blindly option, but check with your DM. You should of course also be making it think you already have mettle via a UMD check, rather than seeking it out in a class to get the tabard to grant improved mettle. For what it's worth, Skip Williams wrote (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041116a) that, "You can use the "activate blindly" option with any kind of item. You can even use it to activate a command item when you don't know the command (or even what the device does). If you succeed, you activate the item somehow. Successful activation does not necessarily reveal the command to you, but you do get a +2 bonus on further attempts to activate the item blindly."

[candycorn]

Evasion: 2 levels of Monk or Rogue, a magic item, countless PRCs. Any will get it.

Mettle: 5 levels of a base class, plus qualifications for a PrC, plus 1-2 levels of a PrC.

You must invest much more to get mettle.

[Devmaar]

Evasion: 2 levels of Monk or Rogue, a magic item, countless PRCs. Any will get it.

Mettle: 5 levels of a base class, plus qualifications for a PrC, plus 1-2 levels of a PrC.

You must invest much more to get mettle.

Or 3 levels of Hexblade

[Jack_Simth]

Evasion: 2 levels of Monk or Rogue, a magic item, countless PRCs. Any will get it.

Mettle: 5 levels of a base class, plus qualifications for a PrC, plus 1-2 levels of a PrC.

You must invest much more to get mettle.
3 levels of Hexblade (which also nets you Arcane Resistance) or one level of Pious Templar. What other sources of Mettle are you aware of? I'd like to know where else it can be found, as it's a very useful class feature, and I sometimes don't want the alignment restrictions of Hexblade, nor the feat cost of Pious Templar.

[Grytorm]

Not quite relevant to mettle but if I remember correctly a lot of the Shadowcaster abilities have Fort or Will half.

[FMArthur]

3 levels of Hexblade (which also nets you Arcane Resistance) or one level of Pious Templar. What other sources of Mettle are you aware of? I'd like to know where else it can be found, as it's a very useful class feature, and I sometimes don't want the alignment restrictions of Hexblade, nor the feat cost of Pious Templar.

Hellreaver can cover Good characters with only Power Attack, but it takes 4 levels (ECL 9). The other abilities you get in the class are for healing and whacking Evil creatures pretty much.