Dragonborn questions

[Mithril Leaf]

Two questions about that lovely dragonborn transformation in Races Of The Dragon.
Handy link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1
First off, does being dragonborn remove your PrC eligibility? Now, looking at the Dragonborn of Bahamut transformation, it says you gain the dragonblood subtype, while keeping any prior ones. Does this mean that for example, a dragonborn dwarf would be able to take levels in Deepwarden?
Second question, does being dragonborn "lock in" and Polymorph Any Object spells affecting you? It doesn't say anything about this, but logically it would make sense.

[Igneel]

Two questions about that lovely dragonborn transformation in Races Of The Dragon.
Handy link: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1
First off, does being dragonborn remove your PrC eligibility? Now, looking at the Dragonborn of Bahamut transformation, it says you gain the dragonblood subtype, while keeping any prior ones. Does this mean that for example, a dragonborn dwarf would be able to take levels in Deepwarden?
Second question, does being dragonborn "lock in" and Polymorph Any Object spells affecting you? It doesn't say anything about this, but logically it would make sense.

Unfortunately Wizards forgot to add in a sidebar from Races of the Dragon that can easily answer the first part of your question.



THE MECHANICS OF REBIRTH
Upon transformation from her initial race to a dragonborn, a supplicant loses many racial traits and gains those of the dragonborn. The following information describes how to mechanically achieve this transformation.
Type, Subtype, and Race: You retain your original type and subtypes, gaining the dragonblood subtype. You still count as a member of your original race for the purpose of any effect or prerequisite that depends on race.
Racial Hit Dice: You retain your original racial Hit Dice, as well as all benefits gained therefrom (base attack and save bonuses, skill points, hit points, and so on).
Ability Modifiers: You retain your original racial ability modifiers and gain the ability modifiers of the dragonborn race.
Size: You retain your original size. If the original race had powerful build as a racial trait, it is also retained.
Speed: You retain your original base land speed, as well as any other modes of movement possessed by your original race. Other racial traits related to speed or movement, such as the dwarf’s ability to move at full speed in medium or heavy armor, are lost.
Languages: You retain any languages you already know. You gain Draconic as an automatic language.
Favored Class: You retain your original favored classes and gain fighter as a favored class. You can multiclass into the paladin class freely.
Level Adjustment: You retain your original level adjustment.
Other Racial Traits: You lose all other racial traits of your original race, including bonus feats, skill bonuses, attack bonuses, save bonuses, spell-like abilities, and so forth. Two specific instances warrant clarification.


If your original race granted you a nonspecific bonus feat (such as the one gained by a human at 1st level), any feat can be lost, so long as it is not a prerequisite for another feat you have.
If your original race granted bonus skill points, you should deduct an appropriate amount of skill points from your current skill ranks. The specific skills affected are up to you, but the DM’s input might be required to adjudicate tricky situations (such as multiclass characters who might have
purchased ranks of various skills as both class skills and cross-class skills).


The loss of racial traits might mean you no longer meet the prerequisites for a prestige class, feat, or some other feature. In general, you lose any special ability for which you no longer qualify, and nothing is gained in its place. A couple of exceptions exist.


If you no longer qualify for a feat due to the transformation, you lose the feat and immediately select a new feat for which you qualify in its place. You must also replace any feat for which the lost feat was a prerequisite.
If you no longer qualify for a prestige class, you lose the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. You retain Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class, as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided. If you later meet all the prerequisites for the class, you regain the benefits.


Special: Ordinarily, only a 1st-level character can select certain feats requiring the dragonblood subtype (see Chapter 6). However, upon becoming a dragonborn, you can elect to replace one (and only one) of your existing feats with one of these feats. A character cannot have more than one of these feats. The feat to be replaced cannot be a prerequisite for any prestige class, ability, or other feat.

Hope this helps some.

[Mithril Leaf]

So, to make sure I've got this straight, it seems as though a dragonborn dwarf would still be able to become a deep warden because (IIRC) the requirement only states that he must be a dwarf. However, a dragonborn beholder wouldn't be able to take levels in beholder mage because it lacks the racial eye abilities. Sound about right?

[Igneel]

So, to make sure I've got this straight, it seems as though a dragonborn dwarf would still be able to become a deep warden because (IIRC) the requirement only states that he must be a dwarf. However, a dragonborn beholder wouldn't be able to take levels in beholder mage because it lacks the racial eye abilities. Sound about right?

Generally, as long as it doesn't take away your Race (which Dragonborn just adds the Dragonblood Subtype) then yeah, you can still take the Deep Warden PrC.

As for the Beholder example, I believe that since the Eye Rays and such are (Su) abilities they do fall under the list of Racial Traits that are lost.

So I do think you got it right.

[monkey3]

Fus Ro Duh

[Mithril Leaf]

So, nobody has any idea about "locking in" of Polymorphs? It'd be handy to know.

[Hirax]

So, nobody has any idea about "locking in" of Polymorphs? It'd be handy to know.

I can't point to any rules citation to say it's illegal, but I would also never take anyone that suggested this as a tactic seriously. I would say the burden of proof falls on proving that it is legal, rather than proving it's illegal, due to the ramifications of how much power you could gain from the process. The designers of dragonborn probably never had that on their minds at any point during the writing process, and it's well documented (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a) that Wizards came to realize polymorphing is broken via numerous unintended consequences, but didn't want to release new version of the relevant spells in the midst of 3.5.

[Mithril Leaf]

Its all about the level of optimization involved really. If it were something like an elf becoming a dwarf and locking it, that'd be probably pretty reasonable. On the other hard, a wizard could "lock in" a black ethergaunt form, and that wouldn't be so reasonable.

[Hirax]

Its all about the level of optimization involved really.

That's fine. But you still need some sort of basis in the rules for it to be remotely acceptable even in the most ludicrous of TO settings. This is just short of pun-pun level shenanigans.

[Mithril Leaf]

I'd hardly consider permanently changing your base race to be Pun-Pun level shenanigans, more along the lines of Beholder Mage level. I agree that it is a completely absurd situation, but its an interesting thought exercise. And it isn't as though I'm proposing it in a build, just asking how it would work. If the consensus was that it did indeed lock in your race, then maybe I'd be going somewhere with it. Probably best to just disallow template acquisition in polymorphed form, as was the consensus in my last thread about polymorphed templates. Comes up a lot with me :smallbiggrin:

[Hirax]

Well, what is your basis for thinking that it does work? Why would it work any more than regular polymorph or even enlarge person?

[Mithril Leaf]

Mainly that its the only one that gives you the time frame to acquire the template. Barring major cheese, most other polymorph effects don't last 12 hours (except wildshape, which I had ignored). I'm not really sure, since there's no official ruling, I was thinking getting other people's opinion on the matter would be nice.

[Hirax]

The duration is irrelevant, even if it's permanent. It's a magical effect just like any other spell, I'm not seeing why you think it would become non-magical. Given that nobody else is taking the question seriously, you can probably take that as a sign of what the consensus is.

[Mithril Leaf]

Alright then, sounds good. Thanks for the tips.
Probably safe to assume that dragonborn dispels the affect.