Draketooth Family History (Speculation thread)

[rrgg]

My guess is that one or more of the three half-dragons were pure evil, they hid away in the windy canyon and enslaved kidnapped humans into building temples for them. This continued until Girard Draketooth was born, he was so gifted that he managed to lead a revolt and defeat the evil three. As a result he was declared to be the clan Jesus, and would eventually be chosen to join the order of the scribble when a rift appeared near the clan's home.

Eating on the floor using nothing but old burlap is a callback to the Draketooths' former slave culture.

[Hironomus]

It's plausible. Would explain the pyramids. And I did find it somewhat strange that they seemed to live with spartan food and furnishings, when they were all at least moderately leveled spellcasters AND each child came with a considerable stolen dowry.

One problem with your theory isthat Black dragons prefer swamps or other aquatic environments. A desert is a very unusual place fore a black dragon to live even if it had a whole team of slaves. Nothing magic can't fix though :smallwink:

Also the Draketooth clan is clearly a family related by blood, and children of 'the evil three', which somewhat decreases the likelihood of your slave civilization scenario.

[Math_Mage]

Well, it DOES say "speculation thread" on the title, so I wasn't exactly surprised. :smallwink:

As stated, this isn't exactly black dragon habitat. I'd bet on the black dragon originating somewhere near the elven portion of the Continent.

[Hironomus]

On the other hand, the desert WOULD be a pretty god place to flee an opressive black dragon master. But that puts you back to square one on the pyramids.

[t209]

My guess is that one or more of the three half-dragons were pure evil, they hid away in the windy canyon and enslaved kidnapped humans into building temples for them. This continued until Girard Draketooth was born, he was so gifted that he managed to lead a revolt and defeat the evil three. As a result he was declared to be the clan Jesus, and would eventually be chosen to join the order of the scribble when a rift appeared near the clan's home.

Eating on the floor using nothing but old burlap is a callback to the Draketooths' former slave culture.
What if something like this.
Girard's grandmother was a pleasure slave or concubine who produces mixed offsprings. Then the three half-dragons revolted and intermarried with other slaves. I mean The black dragon could give her a ugly backstory like half orc.

[PeglegJim]

Well while we're tossing in crazy theories, you think Haley could be related to Girard?

Red-Hair, a mention of being related to dragons, paranoid family who believe family are the only people you can trust.

[t209]

Well while we're tossing in crazy theories, you think Haley could be related to Girard?

Red-Hair, a mention of being related to dragons, paranoid family who believe family are the only people you can trust.

If that happened, she'd be dead by that point.

[Hironomus]

Not necessarily! She was off screen when V cast familiacide. She could have had death ward or flesh to stone cast on her or something. IT COULD HAPPEN!

[rrgg]

It's plausible. Would explain the pyramids. And I did find it somewhat strange that they seemed to live with spartan food and furnishings, when they were all at least moderately leveled spellcasters AND each child came with a considerable stolen dowry.

One problem with your theory isthat Black dragons prefer swamps or other aquatic environments. A desert is a very unusual place fore a black dragon to live even if it had a whole team of slaves. Nothing magic can't fix though :smallwink:

Also the Draketooth clan is clearly a family related by blood, and children of 'the evil three', which somewhat decreases the likelihood of your slave civilization scenario.

A desert might not be a bad place to live for a half dragon though, if you want to keep away from both humans and normal dragons.

As for the second part, they still don't reproduce asexually. This theory would imply that a much larger number of people were kidnapped to serve as a work force (as for girard himself, he would be the child of a concubine and thus still considered a slave). During the revolt however most of the non-magic adepts would have been killed and the few that remained likely remarried back into the main bloodline.

[Stormlock]

What if Girard's clan was evil? Just because they're doing something with a good outcome doesn't mean they can't be individually evil. Maybe Girard fell into the deep end of the alignment pool himself and decided all means are justified by the end in defending his gate, and his cult/clan feels the same way (by his design.) Kidnapping children from their mothers strikes me as a rather Evil act.

[rrgg]

Well while we're tossing in crazy theories, you think Haley could be related to Girard?

Red-Hair, a mention of being related to dragons, paranoid family who believe family are the only people you can trust.

I don't remember her mentioning the dragon bit, where was that.

[ti'esar]

A desert might not be a bad place to live for a half dragon though, if you want to keep away from both humans and normal dragons.

As for the second part, they still don't reproduce asexually. This theory would imply that a much larger number of people were kidnapped to serve as a work force (as for girard himself, he would be the child of a concubine and thus still considered a slave). During the revolt however most of the non-magic adepts would have been killed and the few that remained likely remarried back into the main bloodline.

This could be an origin for Girard's issues with authority figures, but I don't buy it - why would he give a place of honor to the half-dragons on the family tree in this case?

I honestly think the Draketooths are the product of a more-or-less happy relationship, although likely a short-lived one. Given Rich's attitude towards racial alignments, there's no particular reason why that black dragon had to be evil, and even if he was, it could very well have been a relationship like that of Tarquin and Elan's mother (albeit somewhat... weirder).

[t209]

This could be an origin for Girard's issues with authority figures, but I don't buy it - why would he give a place of honor to the half-dragons on the family tree in this case?

I honestly think the Draketooths are the product of a more-or-less happy relationship, although likely a short-lived one. Given Rich's attitude towards racial alignments, there's no particular reason why that black dragon had to be evil, and even if he was, it could very well have been a relationship like that of Tarquin and Elan's mother (albeit somewhat... weirder).

Either the black dragon is a Black Dragon Drizzt (good among evil race) or Draketooth have ugly backstory (rape or pleasure slave to Black Dragon).

[Hironomus]

Either the black dragon is a Black Dragon Drizzt (good among evil race) or Draketooth have ugly backstory (rape or pleasure slave to Black Dragon).

Actually I agree with Ti'esar. In our world and in any world, good people and evil people can coexist. Not every good creature hates evil and some, perhaps even the majority are capable of tolerating it to a point. And the same is true vica versa.

[t209]

Actually I agree with Ti'esar. In our world and in any world, good people and evil people can coexist. Not every good creature hates evil and some, perhaps even the majority are capable of tolerating it to a point. And the same is true vica versa.
So Black Dragon version Drizzt then! (Good among evil race).

[Math_Mage]

So Black Dragon version Drizzt then! (Good among evil race).

The analogy given was to Tarquin and Elan's mom. The black dragon is analogized to Tarquin here--hence, still evil. Not necessarily a Drizz't to his race.

[Hironomus]

The analogy given was to Tarquin and Elan's mom. The black dragon is analogized to Tarquin here--hence, still evil. Not necessarily a Drizz't to his race.

Unless you are suggesting that Drizz't is actually evil? :smallamused:

[ti'esar]

Unless you are suggesting that Drizz't is actually evil? :smallamused:

Well, he's going to have to answer for all those clones eventually...

[PeglegJim]

If that happened, she'd be dead by that point.

That doesn't mean anything. There'd probably be some plotpoint about some magic whatever or not being related enough. Maybe someone went out of their way to protect her against it or whatever.

[kpenguin]

I don't remember her mentioning the dragon bit, where was that.

Well, she claims to be half-dragon here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html) :smallwink:

[PebbleInTheSky]

Personally, I think it's far more likely that Girard's grandmother was simply evil and proud. Girard and his family aren't very nice people based on what we've seen.

[Hironomus]

Personally, I think it's far more likely that Girard's grandmother was simply evil and proud. Girard and his family aren't very nice people based on what we've seen.

Possibly but its also perfectly reasonable to assume that they are good people with evil ancestry. I wont go into to much detail about why I think the draketooths were good or neutral aligned here though as that borders on a "they deserved familicide" discussion.

[Feathersnow]

We have no reason to believe Girard was good. He probably wasn't evil, because he was in a party in a pally who still had his class abilities, but he LOATHED that paladin. And doesn't seem to really grok the underlying principles of goodness or law.

He was most likely chao-neutral, but also, if were ain cult that descended from a dragon and I was ashamed or displeased with this fact, as is likely in the case of rebellious slaves, I wouldn't keep a mural commemorating it.

[thepsyker]

We have no reason to believe Girard was good. He probably wasn't evil, because he was in a party in a pally who still had his class abilities, but he LOATHED that paladin. And doesn't seem to really grok the underlying principles of goodness or law.

He was most likely chao-neutral, but also, if were ain cult that descended from a dragon and I was ashamed or displeased with this fact, as is likely in the case of rebellious slaves, I wouldn't keep a mural commemorating it.
Goodness and Law aren't the same thing. He could be Chaotic Good, not saying that he was, and as such be distrustful of paladin's lawful tendencies believing that they could lead to tyranny.

[Snails]

We have no reason to believe Girard was good. He probably wasn't evil, because he was in a party in a pally who still had his class abilities, but he LOATHED that paladin. And doesn't seem to really grok the underlying principles of goodness or law.

He was most likely chao-neutral, but also, if were ain cult that descended from a dragon and I was ashamed or displeased with this fact, as is likely in the case of rebellious slaves, I wouldn't keep a mural commemorating it.

Your reasoning is sound. I have some narrow disagreements.

I would suggest that the fact Girard put up with Soon for so many years to be circumstantial evidence of a shared conviction. It is, of course, possible for even a raving Chaotic to perceive that saving the world from a god-eating monster to be a sufficient logical reason to put up with a decade of crap -- it is not where I would put my money, though.

There is a second point. The fierceness of Girard anger suggests to me a perceived betrayal of a mutually shared conviction. I would not expect a CN to be shocked if a Paladin does something "stupid" -- that is just natural for Paladins (from this philosophical point of view). I think Girard perceives that Soon's LG vision of Good is not only inferior to his own CG vision of Good, but actually a provably betrayal of the Good.

[Dwy]

There is a second point. The fierceness of Girard anger suggests to me a perceived betrayal of a mutually shared conviction. I would not expect a CN to be shocked if a Paladin does something "stupid" -- that is just natural for Paladins (from this philosophical point of view). I think Girard perceives that Soon's LG vision of Good is not only inferior to his own CG vision of Good, but actually a provably betrayal of the Good.


A really interesting thought, and one of the first good arguments I've encountered about whether Girard is Evil/Neutral/Good. Really makes you wonder what happened to Kraagor, though.

[Feathersnow]

Goodness and Law aren't the same thing. He could be Chaotic Good, not saying that he was, and as such be distrustful of paladin's lawful tendencies believing that they could lead to tyranny.

hey, I didn't say he couldn't be good, just that several of his actions, most notably living in a secret compound in the desert with a clan of people who have art celebrating their descent from a (presumably) evil dragon, indicates a level of incomprehension at how good is defined (does not grok). He ALSO doesn't grok the concept that lawful people obey rules. This is not under dispute. I didn't mean to imply a non-canonical ethical system where goodness and law implied one another.

If he is good, I have to think his life after the scribble can be compared to Miko, so in love with their extreme view of morality (in Girard's case love of freedom from laws and scrutiny) that they reach parody. Before then, he may have been less crazy, only the giant can say.

I like the theory that he is good and felt what Soon did was wrong was because he thought of a betrayal of goodness, but it could have been that intense because it was a betrayal of a friend, which chao-neutral people might well view most strongly due the lack of anyhting else (self/goodness/ law) to latch on to.

[Hironomus]

The only Alignment that would surprise me alittle for Girard Would be evil. He shows good traits like concern for and loyalty to his friends and willingness to devote his life to stopping the destruction of the world. The arguments for him being evil are based less on his actions (apart from trying to kill Soon) and more upon the actions of his family (both ancestors and progeny) which we don't know for sure are even representative of his alignment (though they probably are to an extent, I admit). I originally just thought he was chaotic good, but after seeing all this discussion about it I have settled on Chaotic neutral.

He probably wasn't evil, because he was in a party in a pally who still had his class abilities
That is a very good point and I totally hadn't thought of it. Thanks!

[ti'esar]

Honestly, Girard just strikes me as someone who, by and large, cared more about the law-chaos axis then the good-evil one. Doesn't mean that he wasn't CG, at least originally.

[PebbleInTheSky]

Possibly but its also perfectly reasonable to assume that they are good people with evil ancestry. I wont go into to much detail about why I think the draketooths were good or neutral aligned here though as that borders on a "they deserved familicide" discussion.

My assumption was based more on what was done to Penelope, actually. If that is something every family member is expected to do, they can't be higher than Neutral (and it's a good argument that the Draketooths might be evil) IMHO. While Girard's feud with Soon could be explainable by Girard being Chaotic, the child-kidnapping thing Orrin does isn't.

It doesn't mean that they deserved Familicide (at the very least, the kids can't possibly deserve it yet), it just seems to fit better, given the Paladin-feud, booby-trap at the fake coordinates (with gloating by Girard), the kidnapping thing, followed by the mural showcasing Chromatic dragon ancestry. It's also yet another opportunity for the Giant to remind us Evil has loved ones.

[Hironomus]

My assumption was based more on what was done to Penelope, actually. If that is something every family member is expected to do, they can't be higher than Neutral (and it's a good argument that the Draketooths might be evil) IMHO. While Girard's feud with Soon could be explainable by Girard being Chaotic, the child-kidnapping thing Orrin does isn't.

It doesn't mean that they deserved Familicide (at the very least, the kids can't possibly deserve it yet), it just seems to fit better, given the Paladin-feud, booby-trap at the fake coordinates (with gloating by Girard), the kidnapping thing, followed by the mural showcasing Chromatic dragon ancestry. It's also yet another opportunity for the Giant to remind us Evil has loved ones.

But what if Penelope is evil and likely to raise the child to be evil as well? They could be operating under a "Robin Hood" type of mentality, only swindling people who deserve it. And by abducting the children, the kill two birds with one stone. They continue their defense of the fabric of reality, which is good. And they also stop a child from being raised evil which is also (admittedly ambiguously) good. If they are only targeting the aristocracy of the interchangeable desert empires, there is a good chance that their targets are not nice people.

[Darkfyre99]

hey, I didn't say he couldn't be good, just that several of his actions, most notably living in a secret compound in the desert with a clan of people who have art celebrating their descent from a (presumably) evil dragon, indicates a level of incomprehension at how good is defined (does not grok). He ALSO doesn't grok the concept that lawful people obey rules. This is not under dispute. I didn't mean to imply a non-canonical ethical system where goodness and law implied one another.

I don't think the family tree's point was "celebrating their descent from a (presumably) evil dragon." The point of the family tree was to ensure that their little community wouldn't be too inbred. The majority of the adults are cousins or siblings, which would explain why they're going outside the clan to produce the next generation of Draketooths.

If the current generation had had the chance to grow up, they would've had to be very careful to avoid mating with close relatives. Which explains the prominent family tree.

[Grim Reader]

Either the black dragon is a Black Dragon Drizzt (good among evil race) or Draketooth have ugly backstory (rape or pleasure slave to Black Dragon).

There are a few alternative explanations:

The Evil Dragon and Good human was in love.

The human was evil too.

The human was kinky (come on, you know what humans are like.)

[t209]

So the purple king (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html), did he cheated on his wife or have black dragon or had Draketooth as his concubine.