Who is your LEAST favorite character?

[NinjaStylerobot]

A reverse of my previous thread. What character you like LEAST?

Personaly its Roys dad. Its one thing on the spur of the moment exact vengeance. Its another to think its a good idea, and support the idea.

His son died tried to fullfill his oath. What does he do? BLAME HIM!

[Gift Jeraff]

It used to be Zz'dtri, but I've liked him ever since he came back. I don't know why.

I'm going to go with Bozzok, followed by Enor. Enor just doesn't stand out among the other "childish idiots." Elan is sweeter, Thog is more threatening, the MitD is more interesting, and they're all funnier. As a person, however, he is one of the more likable characters (just a guy trying to get by in life), and I greatly enjoyed his relationship with Gannji (whom I like), so that prevents him from being my absolute least favorite.

Likewise, Bozzok doesn't stand out among the villains. Everyone else is either funnier, deeper, more ambitious, and/or more efficient. Probably the only thing I like about him is the fact that he's tricky to beat--can't get rid of him without making things worse. But that's more an aspect of the city than a part of his character.

[ti'esar]

I don't see this thread going good places... but I have actually been thinking about this lately, and I've come to the conclusion it's Eugene.

There's plenty of worse characters out there, but I just can't think of anyone else who's so totally unlikeable. He gets good lines occasionally, but anyone whose reaction to hearing his son will get into heaven is a look of pure rage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) is going to be at the very bottom of my character list.

I also despised Kubota, but I'm pretty sure that's what Rich was going for, so I'm not sure he counts.

[jidasfire]

I try not to hate characters. Even if I disagree with a character's morals or behavior, I try to remember that they fulfill some narrative purpose in the story and they are there for others to bounce off them.

That said, I hate Celia. I know why she was there, but the way she aggressively stymied the group during the broken party arc and condemned Haley left and right made me want to pull my hair out. It would be one thing if she was just a fish out of water, but instead she was a fish out of water who thought it knew the land better than several creatures with lungs and tried to pull them all into the mouths of bears.

I'm also not the hugest fan of Redcloak. I know he's a well-realized character and ultimately a complex, tragic villain with understandable motivations, but his smugness and inability to see anything he does as wrong get on my nerves. I enjoy when he loses and am frustrated when he wins.

[Hironomus]

I like all the characters (no seriously).

However my least favourite characters are definitely Krystal (crystal?) and Tsukiko.
Both of them display extreme stupidity. Actual lack of intelligence in Crystal's case and Deluded overconfidence in Tsukiko's. Thus they are aggressively evil without even seeming to truly understand why or having any kind of good reason.

Thats it really. I found Gannji annoying (though I loved his thermal detonator line) and I am frustrated by Durkon's current lack of backstory. But even the ones I dislike I like.:smallsmile:

[Myou]

The question is if it's characters we dislike because they do things that are aggravating or because we think they're poor characters or don't like the effect they have on the story. In the context of the story Miko was infuriating at times, but sometimes enemies of the heroes are meant to be, and she served her purpose.

The character I most dislike as a character might actually be Roy. For someone as smart as he's supposed to be, with combined mental stats that could have seen him be a good wizard or a cleric, and exceeded those of the party wizard (in the illithid strip), he just keeps on making really stupid decisions.

Things like refusing a replacement longsword because he wanted his fixed - the replacement can still be sold on after the repairs are made, but instead he was weaponless/swordless for a looong time. Or jumping onto a flying zombie dragon to fight Xykon alone instead of trying to face him with the rest of the party. Or directly trying to force information out of the bounty hunters. Or insisting on springing Nale's trap rather than trying to avoid it.

He just does so many dumb things. :smalltongue:

The other reason is that he's actually not very interesting. He tends to play the straight man a lot, and generally his most notable trait is that he's very sarcastic.

I don't hate Roy, but I don't much care for him.


I also don't like Xykon too much, since he seems to vary in portrayal a lot. I would have liked him to be a bit more consistent in his mental faculties - sometimes he's portrayed as a moron, other times he's portrayed as a mastermind. You might argue that the idiocy is all an act, but if so then he's risked and come close to destruction multiple times to no benefit, so that would itself undermine the possibility. I'd be very pleased if Redcloak's deception really does blindside Xykon, since I pretty much share Redcloak's view of him, but as a character rather than a creature - he's a nasty monster that you point at the good guys, depraved and controlling but not too bright.

[-Sentinel-]

I don't hate any character. Like Jidasfire, I try to at least recognize their narrative purpose. And when I hate one who was supposed to be hated, like Kubota or Eugene, then it's obviously a character who serves his narrative purpose very well.

...buuuuut...

I'm not the #1 fan of Belkar, both in-story and in a meta sense. I think his sociopathy often goes too far to be funny. Other times, he tries to be funny on purpose and comes across as nothing more than an assh*le. I won't cheer when he dies, but I don't think I'll mourn him, either.

[Gnome Alone]

I'm going to assume, like everybody else is, that "least favorite character" means I dislike the personality of the character and not how well they're drawn, as in characterized. Anyway, I hate Tarquin with a purple passion.

He's a cool character, all genre-savvy and charismatic, plus intelligent to the point of even being kind of reasonable. And then what's he go and do with all that verve and wit? He oppresses and murders human beings. (And lizard-beings, I guess.) And he does it knowing full well what he's doing. And he even thinks he's right! Ugh/argh. Hate that guy.

[t209]

Redcloak, that is all after wiping out the resistance.

[Idhan]

Hinjo. It's not that I dislike the guy. I kinda like him and want him to be a cool character, but he... never measures up. He's there to be bailed out, to fail, to be misguided. When I see him, I want him to do something cool that will make me think that one day, after some experience, he could be a leader of Shojo's caliber (or, perhaps a leader of greater caliber, given that the Azurites are in far greater need of a great leader than they ever were under Shojo), but he never does. Lien and the OotS has to be smart on his behalf to stop Kubota, Durkon has to bail him out of a fight with the huecuva and ninjas, Roy has to stop Miko from killing him, etc.

He was allegedly the second-most powerful paladin in the Sapphire Guard, and the first most powerful paladin in the Sapphire Guard was a gal who could take on the whole Order of the Stick sans Durkon combined twice, and could beat Redcloak one-on-one, so you'd think Hinjo would be a pretty tough dude, but in the comic, he comes across as a wimp.

[Surrealistik]

Vaarsuvius easily; annoying pretentious ****. Nearly every sentence of hers provokes reflexive contempt or an eye roll, sometimes both.

Celia's pretty obnoxious too.

[Kish]

Vaarsuvius.

[RSLee]

Celia. I didn't mind her at first, but she was pretty insufferable in her arc in "Don't Split The Party". She just came across as being so damn smug. I could've lived with her being an idiot and her pacificism, but she was just way too holier-than-thou about it for my taste. And that whole stunt where she gave away Haley's money to the theives guild without telling her just poisoned me against her.

[veti]

In terms of who I hate most as a character - Kubota. The man cold-bloodedly murdered someone who loved him - someone whom he manipulated to love him. Even Xykon has never done that.

In terms of who I think is the least-well-explained character, relative to the amount of screentime they've had? O-Chul. We have absolutely no clue about what makes him tick, which is odd considering all the exposure he's had. I'm guessing that's why the Giant chose him for a background story in the pledge drive.

[Vemynal]

Celia's problem was that she took vow of peace lol

I...I'm having trouble coming up with a character I like the least. I guess I'll just go with Goblin cleric #2 lol

[Goosefarble]

Just to say "Miko" doesn't accurately do justice to how much I hate Miko.

But yeah, I hated Miko. Then again, you're kind of supposed to hate Miko, so I guess that's not really my least favourite character and more a character that I have no other option but to hate. Then again, a lot of people seemed to like her. God knows why.

So, if not Miko, then... hmm... I'm going to say Kubota, too. He was a very evil man, and everything kept playing right into his hands. Up until he died, I mean.

[Particle_Man]

That's easy. The Wizard who lived by the shore, servant of Spud, Son of Adki, who decided to turn one of my favourite dragons into electricity. The gory details are in Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales, or (sans Spud, Son of Adki) in Dragon #358.

NERD RAGE!!!!! :smallfurious:

I admit this may be kind of personal. :smallsmile:

[Warren Dew]

Until this comic, my least favorite character may have been Girard, but that seems to have been taken care of. Thanks Vaarsuvius!


His son died tried to fullfill his oath. What does he do? BLAME HIM!
"Do not try. Do. There is no try." - Yoda

[skaddix]

Celia's problem was that she took vow of peace lol

I...I'm having trouble coming up with a character I like the least. I guess I'll just go with Goblin cleric #2 lol

Indeed if Celia was willing to kill she would be more popular. She is actually a pretty good spellcaster and her magic detection abilities come in handy.

[raymundo]

I really dislike Elan the most. I think he is annoying, obnoxious, stupid, useless and unfunny. Well, I'm probably one of the few readers who didn't find the Julio Scoundrel line that entertaining.

Though he improved heavily in the last 100+ strips. I'm always kinda forcing myself through reading his part in OtOoPCs.



Redcloak, that is all after wiping out the resistance.

Interesting. May I ask why?



Indeed if Celia was willing to kill she would be more popular. She is actually a pretty good spellcaster and her magic detection abilities come in handy.

Well, her "you adventures are murderous psychos"-attitude is pretty much what I enjoyed about her.

[SadisticFishing]

Celia is obviously and unquestionably the worst character in the comic, both on a meta level and a personal level. I hate her and everything she stands for.

I find Celia to be the Giant deciding that people hate Miko too much, and so showing what annoying, horrible Lawful Good ACTUALLY looks like. Miko wasn't the best person out there, but she was misguided and lonely, no more or less. :D

[Sneaky Weasel]

Another thread for hating on characters? Excellent. Let's see, the most horrible, stupid, all around nasty piece of **** ever to walk the OOTSverse has got to be...actually, they're all pretty awesome. I don't especially dislike any of them. Sure, I like some more than others, but even the evil ones that everyone hates are still enjoyable, because they make the good guys seem so much better in comparison.
That said, I didn't care much for that one peasant that was rescued from the ogres. Be a little more grateful, chum.

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

and I am frustrated by Durkon's current lack of backstory. But even the ones I dislike I like.:smallsmile:

He has a decent-sized backstory in OotPCs, no?

[jidasfire]

In terms of who I hate most as a character - Kubota. The man cold-bloodedly murdered someone who loved him - someone whom he manipulated to love him. Even Xykon has never done that.



Yeah, this is why I can't be bothered to shed a single tear or raise a single protest about the fact that V killed him. Good riddance to that vile creep.

[ti'esar]

Well, her "you adventures are murderous psychos"-attitude is pretty much what I enjoyed about her.

Yeah - she was definitely a little too holier then thou at some points in DstP, but I just sympathize too much with her attitude towards generic D&D adventurers to really dislike her.


Yeah, this is why I can't be bothered to shed a single tear or raise a single protest about the fact that V killed him. Good riddance to that vile creep.

I can definitely protest about why V killed him, but it's still hard to read the actual strip where he was fried without giving a little mental cheer. Easily the most hateable villain in the comic - but again, I'm pretty sure that's what Rich was going for, so he doesn't really qualify. As far as the worst-executed villain goes, I agree with the guy near the beginning who said Bozzok. He's just kinda meh.

I also agree that we know far less about what makes O-Chul tick then just about anyone else of his level of screentime, but even without the upcoming backstory I'm not sure why this would make someone dislike him.

[Math_Mage]

Even in situations where I should view Nale is a genuine threat, I can never work up any feelings beyond irritation with the bloody git.

Xykon is the most inconsistent character, but that's excusable given how Rich changed storytelling goals midstream (and we are all happier for it).

[Paseo H]

Eugene, for sure. No redeeming qualities whatsoever.

Honorable mentions go to Celia, Miko, and the Katos.

[shadowkiller]

I really hate goblin warrior #384, that guy's a jerk.

[Flame of Anor]

"Do, or do not. There is no try." - Yoda

Fixed that for you.



For me, probably Celia for the aforementioned reasons.

[Myou]

Wow, I totally forget about Celia. She was awful. :smalltongue:

She was fine when she was just a smartass would-be lawyer, but when she returned she was suddenly so stupid that she didn't know that not all creatures can shoot lightning or sense magic - even in the context of D&D those are moronic assumptions.
Then we got the whole vow of peace/vow of steal your friend's corpse and lose it/vow of giving away other people's savings. :smallsigh:

She was meant to be annoying, yes, but she went too far, to the point that her actions felt contrived.

[Paseo H]

For me I think what really got to me about Celia was when she said something like "I'm going to correct you a lot so you'd better get used to it," I forget what strip that was, but you guys know what I'm talking about?

[terenes]

Yeah, Celia... Sure thing. But why nobody mentioned about the Oracle?

[Kalmageddon]

Wow.
It's really interesting to see all this hate for Celia, expecially because the reason seems to be the fact that she doesn't kill.
I always had the impression that she was put into the comic to provide a real-life morality point of view in a typical D&D setting: killing people is not "normal" and anyone who isn't totally detached from reality or has serious mental issues should react with horror at the sight of such an act (and don't even try to argue with me on this one, I'm not open for debate).

Then again she does get a bit overboard with her respect for life... She's a vegetarian, she tries to change people, she's certanly stereotyped in some ways. These are the reasons I wouldn't like her, certanly not because she's not killing people.

Anyway my least favorite main character is probably Haley, it's not that I dislike her, it's just that I can't find a single interesting thing about her, not to mention she spoke in gibberish for a long time, meaning I ignored her presence in most of those strips. Her romance with Elan is cute and I love Elan, he's probably one of the funniest characters, but Haley is just meh...
For short: she's not funny, at all.

[Omergideon]

I am always very torn about this sort of question. Because there are a couple of routes I take in this.

1) Character I find least interesting. This changed over the course of the comic but overall I would choose Tsukiko. I do not think she was an interesting or funny character. Her perspective was not complicated and I found her actions horribly predictable. In short nothing she did interested me.

2) Character I find most morally repugnant. And in this case it is Belkar. I know Redcloak and Xykon are villains and very immoral as well. But Belkar is on the good guys side. He is a villain who works with the heroes. As such the lack of commupance for his various misdeeds, petty and proper, is more glaring. He is much more interesting than Tsukiko was (nowadays at least) but....I just dislike him. Plus I rarely found his actions as funny as Xykon was.

3) Character I think is most overrated. Tarquin. Now Tarquin is a somewhat interesting and useful character. he has some skills to be sure. But the level of adoration he recieved is a bit much for me.

[Myou]

Wow.
It's really interesting to see all this hate for Celia, expecially because the reason seems to be the fact that she doesn't kill.
I always had the impression that she was put into the comic to provide a real-life morality point of view in a typical D&D setting: killing people is not "normal" and anyone who isn't totally detached from reality or has serious mental issues should react with horror at the sight of such an act (and don't even try to argue with me on this one, I'm not open for debate).

Then again she does get a bit overboard with her respect for life... She's a vegetarian, she tries to change people, she's certanly stereotyped in some ways. These are the reasons I wouldn't like her, certanly not because she's not killing people.

Anyway my least favorite main character is probably Haley, it's not that I dislike her, it's just that I can't find a single interesting thing about her, not to mention she spoke in gibberish for a long time, meaning I ignored her presence in most of those strips. Her romance with Elan is cute and I love Elan, he's probably one of the funniest characters, but Haley is just meh...
For short: she's not funny, at all.

Actually, I don't think many people hate her for being a pacifist. I do think some hate her for being a bad pacifist though. She lets other people kill for her when they have no choice, but refuses to help. And she also attacked Nale and Thog (who was innocent of the actions she was angry over), with an attack that could potentially have even killed them.

But that's not the root of the issue, not for me, or I think for most people. Celia's problems stem from her artificial stupidity combined with, as you and others allude to, her incredible arrogance. :smalltongue:

[Grogmir]

Least Favourite is Elan. Just don't like silly people. even if they are as dumb as a box of moldy carrots.

Least favourite charactor development is Durkon, I like the character, but don't think giant has done enough with him. Although I'm expecting that to change in the last few books.

[Ellye]

Celia was the only character to ever actually annoy me more than the author intended for.

Seeing Haley "dismiss" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html) her was fantastic, though.

I kinda mildly hope that she never again gets mentioned in the comic, much less appear.

[eulmanis12]

Despite their comic value the three charecters I truly despise are
Celia
Mr. Jones
Phil Rodrieguez

I hate them on general principal, they are lawyers.:smallwink:

[Grey Watcher]

I think a big part of the reason that Celia came off as so sanctimonious (which I think is what cheese people off) is that the whole point of that mini-arc (with the three of them traveling between Azure City and Greysky City) was to give Haley a taste of Roy's medicine. Though she doesn't have the full order to deal with, she is, very suddenly, put in charge of two people with wildly divergent and conflicting personalities and attitudes. So Haley's suddenly put in the awkward position of having to balance these two. I think if Celia had been written with a more deferential attitude ("It seems wrong, but I'll trust the judgement of the person who's survived in this insane world for 24 years."), it might have made her more palatable, but would have ruined the point of that subplot. It would have just been Haley and Celia in agreement that Belkar was depraved and out of control.


... And she also attacked Nale and Thog (who was innocent of the actions she was angry over), with an attack that could potentially have even killed them....

Well, as visually impressive as it was, we don't know how strong a blast it was. It may be that it was no more powerful that slapping him across the face with her hand would've been.

Also, I don't actually find Xykon inconsistent, at least in terms of intelligence. I think what it is that, ultimately, he's... flighty. With few exceptions, he just doesn't care enough to concentrate on any one thing for very long. He'll occasionally have a clever idea (even I admit that the Bouncing Ball of Insanity was inspired), but generally will only expend effort on things he finds funny, unless the need is REALLY pressing (ie "I need a place to stash my phylactery that Wrong Eye can't screw up."). He's been the strongest thing around for long enough that he's cocky. He's fully aware that, with only very few exceptions (that silver dragon from his tower, Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard, etc.) that he can just steamroll any opposition.

[Chobarth]

Least Favourite is Elan. Just don't like silly people. even if they are as dumb as a box of moldy carrots.

Least favourite charactor development is Durkon, I like the character, but don't think giant has done enough with him. Although I'm expecting that to change in the last few books.

Pre-Dashing Swordsman Elan, was hands down the character I absolutely loathed more than anyone else. But his character growth has done wonders for him. Burlew has done a fine job of transforming him into an interesting character.

I don't like Celia, I detest Eugene, Bozzok was cliche, but these are all 'in character' so they don't bother me. They help spin the story. They are needed.

In the end, I have to agree with Grogmir (more or less) -- Durkon has been left behind by the others. Every time I think Burlew is about to start an arc with him, I'm dissappointed. Only the Origin of PC's book even begins to crack that nut with the resident dwarf cleric. Durkon is much past due. I last hoped that something would come out of his new friendship with Malack (and perhaps it still will...) but now that they've left the Empire's capital the chance has decreased. I lost count of how many strips he didn't even appear in while 'researching' his mass death-ward spell.

It's odd to say that my least favorite character is someone I cheer for when he gets "screen time" but there you go.

[Myou]

I think a big part of the reason that Celia came off as so sanctimonious (which I think is what cheese people off) is that the whole point of that mini-arc (with the three of them traveling between Azure City and Greysky City) was to give Haley a taste of Roy's medicine. Though she doesn't have the full order to deal with, she is, very suddenly, put in charge of two people with wildly divergent and conflicting personalities and attitudes. So Haley's suddenly put in the awkward position of having to balance these two. I think if Celia had been written with a more deferential attitude ("It seems wrong, but I'll trust the judgement of the person who's survived in this insane world for 24 years."), it might have made her more palatable, but would have ruined the point of that subplot. It would have just been Haley and Celia in agreement that Belkar was depraved and out of control.



Well, as visually impressive as it was, we don't know how strong a blast it was. It may be that it was no more powerful that slapping him across the face with her hand would've been.

Given that Nale got new damage marks, combined with the visuals (we've seen less powerful blasts from her, which were correspondingly smaller in size), it seems like a strong blast to me, but you're right that we don't know for sure. It isn't really important of course.


Also, I don't actually find Xykon inconsistent, at least in terms of intelligence. I think what it is that, ultimately, he's... flighty. With few exceptions, he just doesn't care enough to concentrate on any one thing for very long. He'll occasionally have a clever idea (even I admit that the Bouncing Ball of Insanity was inspired), but generally will only expend effort on things he finds funny, unless the need is REALLY pressing (ie "I need a place to stash my phylactery that Wrong Eye can't screw up."). He's been the strongest thing around for long enough that he's cocky. He's fully aware that, with only very few exceptions (that silver dragon from his tower, Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard, etc.) that he can just steamroll any opposition.

That's how I want him to be, yes, but to me there are suggestions now and then that he's actually employing obfuscating stupidity (which has become a pretty popular idea with some readers), when he does things like arranging Miko's escape. That would have made more sense to me if it had been Redcloak's idea, or something they came up with together. Also, even when he focuses on something, he just isn't (or at least shouldn't be) that bright. I certainly don't have a big problem with him, I just feel like he varies at times, and I really don't want to see a big reveal where we find out that it really was all an act and he's a super genius. :smalltongue:

[Goosefarble]

I can understand all the Celia hate but honestly I didn't feel it. The only time I actually came close to not liking her was when she dragged Roy's body to Greysky City - other than that she just came across as the uptight straight-man (straight-sylph?). Same with Vaarsuvius - I find it impossible to hate him/her because s/he has made some god-awful mistakes, and can't even start to fix them. Someone can't go through that sort of thing without me warming to them at least a little.

[Bad Hair Day]

thog..................

[Nilan8888]

I'm not sure I understand all this hate on for Celia -- she's different from the other characters, and I find her interesting as someone who just sort of tries to live this regular life with, you know, NOT killing people.

The comic does sort of dance around her a bit with her never having to confront the fact that in some situations it's kill or be killed, and THAT I find annoying, but it's not the character that does that. It's that she lives on a premise that relies on her never being put into a situation where she HAS to kill, or to be killed herself. The comic has done well to stress that Celia has a point: the order does rely on killing when there are plenty of non-violent solutions available. But Celia has never been forced to confront a dog-eat-dog situation. To quote the Dark Knight, she's never had to confront someone that "just wants to watch the world burn".

You could say she has with Belkar, but that's not really true. Belkar can be reasoned with, and Roy does it every day. Plus Belkar sticks around despite what his own alignment would supposedly dictate. Celia's never been forced to counter someone that is looking to kill her and, if she does not kill them, they will simply get back up and keep coming after her.

Although it's absolutely one of the rarest situations you'll ever encounter, sometimes there really is no other option. Celia does not understand this, though Haley does.

As for my least favorite character? Well I guess a lot of the Greysky thieves guild would have to take that prize. There's just... nothing there, really. No real meat. People harp on Celia, but she's got way more nuance and characterization than Buzzok, Hank, Crystal, and so far, even Ian (although Ian is currently in the EoB). You don't get much of a sense of depth here, and the only thing differentiating any of them beyond physical differences is that Crystal is dumb (dumber than Belkar, who is already a bit dim), and Ian is paranoid. Otherwise they seem like stock personalities.

Malack also is falling a bit flat. He's a very congenial albino cleric. He hates Nale. He's got anxieties about finding a new mate. But there's not enough punch there yet: is he TOO congenial? Are his manners something of a personality quirk? How deep do these anxieties run? That sort of thing.

People might hate Celia, Miko and Tsukiko (why all these women characters in the 'hated' section?). But I think they were GREAT characters: they did exactly what those characters are supposed to do, which is stand out from their environment. They were and are well developed (and in the case of Celia and Miko, fully developed: Tsukiko could have been developed a little more before her demise, I think), and you can definitely say there's been no other character like them.

But Buzzok? What's so different between him and Hank? Between him and Crystal? Haley's past with the thief guild seems entirely based on her situation and not engaging the characters involved. Buzzok had almost as much unique character development as the Loki Cleric, and we never even got that guy's name! This is contrasted with Elan's adventures concerning Therakla, who was another engaging character.

I understand that you don't want to develop secondary character at the expense of your main ones, but I for one think of EVERY character as a potential story in and of themselves.

[Bulldog Psion]

Just one word:

Celia.

[Midnight_v]

The montser in the darkness :mitd:

Well beyond it's usefulness as a reveal. Doen't DO anything, everytime it shows up I'm just like... "why?" eyeroll.

I think that anyone who's reading it though and doesn't like one of the members of the main cast, might be failing to differentiate between someone we wouldn't like in real life vs characterizations in a book .

[Skavensrule]

Eugene Greenhilt: Zero character growth and seems proud of it. He sees his friend and master Fyron killed while belittling sorcerers and yet he makes the same type of mistakes with his own son. A "sharp metal stick" is actually one of the best ways to take down a magic user, (if you can get close enough). He must have had some warning that his oath would cause problems even before his death. (see OtOoPC's, he died several times) Yet when the time came he was too lazy to even "go out with a bang". He constantly critisizes his son and praises his daughter just because she went into a Magic field of study. Probably was the reason that little Eric died although comic #496 is just vague enough to not be sure.

[Dark Elf Bard]

REally? Celia.


She always was a smart-ass to Haley. "Do I need to show you where the door is too?" She doesn't even try to pretend to understand or care about human culture. So self-interested. All she cares about is herself and her human sex-toy.

[martianmister]

Eugene, Belkar and Mr. Scruffy.

[Kish]

I can understand all the Celia hate but honestly I didn't feel it. The only time I actually came close to not liking her was when she dragged Roy's body to Greysky City - other than that she just came across as the uptight straight-man (straight-sylph?).
That she is straight is indeed one of the reasons for her particular interest in Roy...

[rbetieh]

The Allosaurus, he messed up his lines, never so much as a single Rawr in any of his appearances. Too many points in Move Silently, not enough rolling of 4's.

[Firewind]

Okay I was going to put Redcloak because of his arrogant smugness and inability to see both the big picture and the fact that he thinks he can do not wrong. His goals are also massively hypocritical when you look at he supposedly "sympathetic" reasons from the point of view of oh, just about everyone else.

But was hit by some realisation: he's a villain, I'm supposed to hate him.

So for that reason I will have to go for Belkar. He's bascially had no character development over the entire thing and comedic sociopathy can only do so much to get the reader to cheer him on because he's supposed to be a good guy. Honestly I think the OoTS would get far more done if they just booted him out when the Mark was on him and got a Ranger that actually is worth hiring.

Just sick of him really, moreso than Celia.

[PerpetualGM]

Belkar by a fairly wide margin. He gets some good lines in, but I've played far too many RPGs with "that guy" and dislike that sort of character immensely.

[TheFirstStraw]

I really dislike Elan the most. I think he is annoying, obnoxious, stupid, useless and unfunny. Well, I'm probably one of the few readers who didn't find the Julio Scoundrel line that entertaining.


I'd have to agree with you on most points. I tend to find Elan a bit annoying. However, I thought Scoundrel was the man--dude's Han Solo with an RPG-style airship!

I seem to be in the minority in that I like Celia; or maybe I just "appreciate" Celia's personality. We needed someone to represent that sort of mindset, and I think it played reasonably well.

[Dark Elf Bard]

The Allosaurus, he messed up his lines, never so much as a single Rawr in any of his appearances. Too many points in Move Silently, not enough rolling of 4's.

Ha. Funny. Sarcasm.

Seriously, though. I've seen some Mr. Scruffy hate. Why?

[Once&FutureKing]

Of the main 6? Durkon. I shouldn't even need to explain my choice.

[raymundo]

Of the main 6? Durkon. I shouldn't even need to explain my choice.

Doch, you should. Please.

[SavageWombat]

I don't really have one, but I would think that a character that causes an emotional reaction - such as people hating Eugene for being a terrible father - is actually a very good character for that reason.

A least favorite character should either be -

a) someone you can't stand to even see on the page ("Oh, god, it's her again, maybe I'll just skip this week")

or b) someone so uninteresting as to make you wonder why he's even in the story ("What was the point of this scene again?")

[Once&FutureKing]

All of the OOTS have been through major character development over the course of the comic, all of them have changed and grown. Except Durkon. He's the same guy he ever was. That's generally a pretty boring narrative to follow, but it's even worse because Durkon's character is pretty dull anyhow. It's even played for laughs in the comic... once the OOTS re-unites, Durkon is "still unfashionably bearded", and that's it for his development. He's had no real personal character arc (except a long ago aborted one), and it was pretty short and boring. The guy is necessary glue for the group, like a chorus singer or a drummer, but he's individually dull.

[skim172]

I'd also say Eugene, but with an asterisk. I've said it before and I stick by it - Eugene is written with the purpose of being an unlikable character, by which I mean, his unlikability is asserted and assumed as innate and we're not otherwise given a clear picture why he's so despicable. The most coherent motivation we've been given is that he has a short attention span and this is why he's a terrible father. That's a very weak characterization, because it doesn't ring true. Terrible fathers who stop caring about their children do not act like Eugene. They walk away, they leave their families behind. They kick their children out of their homes, they pick up destructive habits. They abuse their children - and not in a "my daddy said I had a big nose" teen-drama way. They beat and sexually molest their children and their partners. That's a terrible father. At the very least, they'd get a divorce. If Sara Greenhilt had told Roy, "Your father lost interest in raising a family and that's why he walked out on us forever," then that might make sense.

Terrible fathers do not continue trying to maintain their family. They don't have good relationships with Roy's younger sister. They don't visit Roy in college - they don't send their kids to college, period. They don't support their families. They don't stay married to a woman who clearly doesn't want to be in the relationship. They don't respect their wedding vows until their deathbed. They don't give up lifelong dreams of revenge or ambition for the sake of their family duties.

Eugene could be accused of being emotionally unavailable. He could be accused of giving up too quickly in getting closer to his son. He could be accused of not understanding or not wanting to understand his son. But he still tried to at least carry out his duties as a parent and a husband, even if his heart wasn't in it - there are many, many worse parents out there.

So when we get those glimpses of evil Eugene, like when he tells Roy that he cares nothing for his family, you know how that feels? Incomplete. We're missing something. Clearly, undeniably, Eugene does bad things, selfish things. But the overall picture is inconsistent. A guy who tampers with supernatural forces of good to screw over his kids is usually not a guy who sticks around those kids for 20, 30-odd years.

Which makes me think that it's one of two things:
1. the author has an inconsistent view of Eugene as a character (as in, he's changed it),

or, more likely, 2. we're supposed to accept Eugene at face value - a bad, selfish man and a bad father. Which feels a little thin on characterization, which is why I don't like him. He's an important character, but in a story full of very detailed and three-dimensional individuals, he's a blob.

Alternatively, maybe there's something that will be revealed about Eugene later, but there's been absolutely no foreshadowing of that. A hint that maybe Eugene isn't a bad person or that he has unselfish reasons.

[Kish]

I'd also say Eugene, but with an asterisk. I've said it before and I stick by it - Eugene is written with the purpose of being an unlikable character, by which I mean, his unlikability is asserted and assumed as innate and we're not otherwise given a clear picture why he's so despicable. The most coherent motivation we've been given is that he has a short attention span and this is why he's a terrible father. That's a very weak characterization, because it doesn't ring true. Terrible fathers who stop caring about their children do not act like Eugene.

[Lots and lots of assertions]

...That's a lot of assertions. And all wrong.

You don't have to be the villain on a Lifetime movie to be a bad, uncaring father. You don't have to say, "Muahaha, I care nothing for my children and accept no responsibilities to them!" to neglect your children.

[rbetieh]

The Eugene / Bad father hate always got me. You know, despite the fact that his methods seem bad to Roy (and most of his other family members). It turns out he did end up raising Roy right (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0162.html). If so much of character comes from your how you were raised, then Eugene taught his son one very valuable lesson: always know what you are about and why you are doing it.


Ha. Funny. Sarcasm.

No, I really dont like the implausibly silent allosaurus. The whole popping out of nowhere and everyone is surprised thing bugged me, even after it was lampshaded. The only noise it made was a single snap, even with its jaws wide open. It was too fantastic even for a fantasy genre.

[RickDaily12]

I don't buy into the idea that ANY of the Order members are being left behind, and this includes Durkon, in terms of plot development. And the reason I say that is because they've always been looked at, one by one, one at a time. But before this can happen, that Order member must enter a certain setting for that development to come alive. Think about where each member has shined the most:

Elan came first. He was doing a lot of maturing in NCftPB, and then, of course, his whole bout with Nale in W&XPs. He got another big arc with Therkla- who can't remember his whole ordeal with her? And hell, I say he might get ANOTHER large look at very soon, after he realizes that his father has now become an active enemy of his.

Next was Haley, with her cryptograms. But the more she hangs around, first with the fall of Azure City and the rise of her Resistance; then with her encounter with the Thieves Guild; now with the struggle of her father? She has yet to get another massive arc, but we are seeing more and more characterization on her end. That has been happening in the last 300 comics.

The third person to get a huge arc was Roy. The story was largely about him, but we saw a large look at his conflicts in personality when he died, and spent the afterlife with his family, and then the moments with Eugene. That entire subplot was his, and arguably one of the most enjoyable on my end.

During Roy's subarc in the afterlife, Belkar activates his Mark of Justice, which led to HUGE conflicts with his character after that. He had to create new "fake" development, using Shojo and his cat for a path of guidance to use Chaos as a means to stop being "that guy" in a RPG that everyone hates just so he can survive as long as he can before the end of the year. And mark my words: we will ALL be thinking something entirely new about Belkar when THAT time comes.

And then of course, Vaarsuvius. Whom I would argue currently has the largest and STILL ACTIVELY PROCEEDING major charactization subarc, starting all the way back with the mid-end of the Azure City war; to hir constant magical failures on the ship to reunite the long lost party; to hir deal with the IFCC to obtain the Soul Splices resulting in the Familicide spell; to STILL now, with Vaarsuvius still learning the full consequences of hir actions during all of that time which s/he used the desirable "ultimate arcane power" that was always wanted. Vaarsuvius, I would say, has had the largest character development out of everyone, in just one large plot.

Which leaves us with Durkon, but I know his time will be coming soon, and here's why: because he hasn't found that setting to reach a rock bottom yet.

1. Elan began his plot developments in the most urban areas of the world after Nale successfully swapped roles with him.
2. Haley began hers in the shady areas of towns (Greysky), and at the loss of wealth (cryptograms).
3. Roy came out in massive colors in the afterlife, with his family.
4. Belkar was forced to "evolve or die" by adopting an entirely new outlook.
5. Vaarsuvius is actively seeing the limitations of the magical arts, and how important it is to not see the world around hir as expendable to pursue it.
6. Durkon will see the true implications of his OtOoPCs Departure when he returns home, to begin defending Kraagor's Gate (it is in the cold barren lands, near the dwarven homelands) and change his personality, where he will then die shortly after. (Oracle Prophecy)
Durkon is coming. He'll be the last character to develop, because it isn't time for him yet. Just wait for the next Gate.


As for my least favorite character? In terms of morality... Xykon. Belkar is a close second, but the only remaining enjoyment Xykon has left in him as the result of being a construct, is the pain of others as they die. Belkar can find more good in life in himself and in others, although not by much, which is why I find him less morally repugnant than the lich.

In terms of personality... it's a tie between Miko and Ian. For the same reason, actually- they are SUPER self-centered. They literally believe the world revolves around them, and they will bring that idea with them to the grave: that they are the only ones who can conquer corrupt civilization, and anyone who objects to their ideas is either an enemy, or a fool. The only difference is, Ian is weaponless, and might not be so quick to draw a blade.

I agree with Tsukiko for being the least liked character in terms of development. She was rather bland, no questions there.

[rgrekejin]

This isn't the character I disagree with the most, or find their actions the most repugnant or whatever, but the one that I have the least fun reading.

Therkla.

I mean, characters like Kubota, Eugene and Miko are probably not written to be especially likeable, and so if you don't like what they do, that's fine. They're fulfilling their narrative role, though, and I enjoy watching their interactions with other characters. Therkla, however, I think is supposed to be likeable but for whatever reason I found her to be just so dull. Seriously. Dull as dishwater. Selfishly, I'm kind of glad she died quickly.

[denthor]

A friend that is reading my comic books (female) can not stand Haley. She even went so far as to say even when Haley shows goodish tendencies she could not credit her with anything. She is currently reading Don't split the Party.

Me I am male I can not stand... I guess Malick Tarquins whipping boy. Even though a priest and clearly able to take care of situations he is not true to himself.

I truely do not like people that do not have the ability to think for themselves nor stand for what they believe.

Personal note I want more comics with the IFCC. They are the most interesting of all of characters by far

[SerenaRaeyld]

Alternatively, maybe there's something that will be revealed about Eugene later, but there's been absolutely no foreshadowing of that. A hint that maybe Eugene isn't a bad person or that he has unselfish reasons.

If, indeed, there will be some sort of revelation about Eugene in the future, I wouldn't go so far as to say it's entirely without foreshadowing (though probably entirely without in the main online comic).

In a recent read-through of Star of Darkness, I found myself questioning the following two scenes:

Minor Start of Darkness (and I believe OtOoPCs) spoiler:

Bash University Library: 7 Years Ago
<Roy and Eugene, after Eugene first informs Roy of his oath>
:roy: "And in all the twenty-plus years since you met Mom, you never went off and searched for Xykon?"

<Eugene> "No, never.
<Eugene> "But only because I never had any decent information about him. If I had been able to get one solid piece of data on where was was hiding... ...I would have dropped everything and gone after him.
<Eugene> "Yeah, I would have walked out on you so fast, you'd have thought I cast Haste."

:roy: "Gee, thanks, Dad. You're every bit the family man I remember."

This would seem to support the idea of Eugene as the inexplicable non-engaged father. And yet...

Moderate Start of Darkness Spoiler: [With some more significant, non-essential spoilers redacted]

Greysky City: 21 years ago.
<Eugene meets a contact within a tavern>

<Contact> "I have information you might find useful.
<Contact> "I know where Xykon is right now."

[Eugene mentions he hasn't pursued the Blood Oath in years; Veracity of information is verified.]

<Contact> "So that's it. Location, information, now get your adventurer buddies together and go earn some XP."

[<Eugene makes various excuses; contact calls him on it>]

<Eugene> *Sigh* OK, there's more to it than just that. It's complicated."

<Contact> "How is it complicated? Have you sworn revenge on him or not?"

<Eugene> "I did, yes, but that was a long time ago. I'm married now. I have a son, Roy. He's almost 8 years old."

<Contact> "So? It's not like I'm asking you to bring him along."

<Eugene> "So if this assassination thing you're so eager to set up goes south, my son is an orphan and his mother, a widow. Or worse, Xykon finds out about them and kills them, too, just for fun. The risk isn't worth the reward anymore.
<Eugene> "No, sorry. No thanks. Get someone else to do your dirty work for you."

<Contact gets angry, then resigned>

<Eugene> "Well, if you want my advice, you should [...] move forward with your lives. Find yourself [a girl] and start playing 'Hide the Cucumber' with them. Did wonders for me.

So, Eugene lies about why he didn't go after Xykon? Why tell your son you'd have gladly up and left him if only you'd had data Y, when it'd really been handed to you on a silver platter 14 years ago?

I'm not sure. I don't think there's enough to go on to know exactly what's happening Eugene...but I think there's enough ambiguity there for additional story some day, and possibly future payoff to the readers of the prequels. At very least, Eugene is not the simple, uninterested, non-engaged father he seems to revel in claiming to be (to his son, anyway).

As I understand it, there's more Eugene/Roy backstory in OtOoPCs, but until I receive my Patience copy (as late as December), I can't contribute anything to that effect. :smallsmile:

[SinsI]

Nale. Almost as stupid and annoying as Elan - but thinks himself a genius...

[Musta Nuoli]

My least favorite character of the Order is definitely Durkon. No question about it. He's just a walking first aid kit (okay, walking resuscitate-and-resurrect-kit) with a cliched Scottish brogue and a very nondistinctive personality. Some minor jokes about trees are just that: minor jokes, there's no threedimensional personality and Durkon's character is quite flat. A stick figure indeed.

Durkon is what I'd call a generic priest/cleric. Should Durkon die in the comic and be replaced by another cleric that would not be a problem as long as there are enough healing spells coming up. Fortunately we have Redcloak as an example of multidimensional, interesting and much more interesting cleric character.

I have no particular dislike towards Durkon, I do not wish to see him out of OOTS. I just don't feel anything at all towards Durkon. He's just "that another guy", the necessary healer in the background.

Funnily enough, Durkon DID originally have his moments. That was back in 2004, in the beginning of OOTS (his episode with Hilgya, especially aroung #83 - #84). At that time the other characters were still more onedimensional, so Durkon's moral issues and inner conflicts made a difference. But after his encounter with Hilgya Durkon fell more and more into the background. The other characters fleshed out and became more diverse while Durkon became more and more dull.

I sincerely hope that Rich Burlew is up to something with Durkon and gets something out of this bland, uninteresting and generic dwarven cleric with his Sean Connery -accent and textbook-like, impersonal "Lawful Good" attitude. A faith of crisis? An illigimate child with Hilgya? Even a glorious death and posthumous return to his homeland?

[Hironomus]

Girard.

After that stunt with the 'haha the gate's not here haha' I seriously wanted to kick the paranoid **** in the balls. :smallannoyed:

Ok I share that sentiment entirely. They get to the desert and I'm like "oh boy, soon I get to see another epicly defended gate!". Noooope. Girard Draketooth (cept with illusions instead of taxidermy). Then it happens again when they actually find the Draketooth compound. Admittedly it wasn't really his fault this time (though an argument could be made that he led to it by only trusting family) but I still resented him for it for some reason.

[Lvl45DM!]

I love Durkon! he actually gets plenty of hilarious lines, "clerics feather fall" heh!
Kubota was a really good villian, politically powerful rather than typically DandD powerful.
Miko was great its always good to see heroes fall to villains, while still thinking they are heroes.


My least favourite was definitely Celia. All the other moralities represented in this story make sense. Grappling with the divine-mandated racism, Lawful Neutral vs Lawful Good, even Lawful alignment with obeying the law are all really good.
But Celias insane pacifism doesn't make sense.:smallyuk:
I remember reading that the Giant wasgunning for the 'real-world' mentality and i think he failed. People in the real world are often willing to kill when in those kind of situations. If your friend is in danger, entirely because of you, let me repeat that ENTIRELY BECAUSE OF YOU IGNORING WHAT SHE SAID, and then you refuse to 'compromise your principles' to save her ass? :smallmad: Hell without the Deus Ex Machina of the Shojo hallucination Haley would've died, that Cleric of Loki would've likely died and Belkar probably would've died. Now im not bashing her morals, just saying they aint realistic for 99% of 'real world people'.
She is one of the only characters, in fact i think the only character i can think of off the top of my head, who seemed to fail in their narrative purpose. :smallannoyed: I don't want to identify with that character. If i was a person who did identify with that character I'm not sure why I'm reading this comic. It's a friggin RPG comic. People run at you with swords, you kill them! DUH!
I mean OK she can't be resurrected. Humans can! And she obviously can adjust to that fact since she stopped crying over Roy in like a panel because she knew he just needed to be brought back. She's not willing to kill to save her own gorram life when her life is so fleeting. :smallconfused::smallyuk::smallmad:
What sold it for me, from mild annoyance into outright hatred is she gave away Haley's gold. Gold she was saving for a good cause, had stolen only from monsters corpses and Grubwiggler the insanely evil golemmancer and so really wasn't 'stolen from people who had earned it'. :smallfurious: Though i agree that all those deaths only occurred because of her. Her freaking stupidity! But heyyyyy blame the badass heroic thief for everything, risk everyones life attack Belkar for his questionable morals ignore that there's a WAR going on, all cos you're squeamish about killing, in a world where there is explicitly an afterlife.
Grr

[Thrar]

Miko, Nale and Eugene.

Which is clearly intentional for all three of them. So that makes it good writing I guess. :smallannoyed:

[Dwy]

that silver dragon from his tower.

What strip is this? I've seen it mentioned several times, but can't seem to remember it.

Anyway, my least favourite would be Roy's Corpse. That guy and his chariot annoyed me to no end.

[Jaros]

What strip is this? I've seen it mentioned several times, but can't seem to remember it.

I believe this is a bonus strip in NCftPB, which became Xykon's zombie dragon.

[TerrickTerran]

It used to be Celia.....so very annoying

but now it's Redcloak whose story is going to feel forced no matter how it ends. The Tsukiko murder just pushed him over the line for me.

[Callista]

Nale. He's... well, he's just trying too hard. Oddly enough, Elan's among my favorites. They're both genre-savvy; it's just that for Elan, it's a natural part of his personality. It's who he is--part of his belief that things are going to work out all right, that the good guys win. Nale, on the other hand, seems to have shoehorned himself into the Evil Twin role, defining himself by this stereotype so much that he's not even really got a personality or motivations of his own, nor a well-defined set of beliefs. I think of him as Sabine's pawn, and little more.

[Talvereaux]

My least favorites are probably the Azurite survivors. Kazumi, Daigo, Lien, Hinjo, and O-Chul--just that segment of the cast.

It's not that they really do much to make them worth being hated unlike most of the characters listed, but that's just it. They're mostly monotonous characters who don't offer a lot by terms of drama or comedy. They have no character arc (save for maybe Hinjo, and his just isn't that interesting), failed or otherwise, and the scant amount of jokes they offer are generally weak by the standards I hope for. They're just lukewarm recurring characters who don't offer enough to drive me to care about them.

[veti]

I'm not sure I understand all this hate on for Celia -- she's different from the other characters, and I find her interesting as someone who just sort of tries to live this regular life with, you know, NOT killing people.

I completely agree. I think - yes, I know I'm alone in this, but bear with me for the moment - that Celia was the replacement PC for Roy's player while his normal character was elsewhere.

Once you start seeing her attitude not as writing but as roleplaying, you see it's not just unexplained obstructionism: it's a player who's having a lot of fun, and injecting a lot of fun into the game session.

Yes, I know there is no "game session". But seriously, the comic often makes a lot more sense if you assume there is. Try it next time a character does something that doesn't seem to make sense.

[Shiim]

Vaarsuvius x1000

Edit: Maybe not the character itself...but the over-analyzing discussion that occur after every single action (s)he takes.

[jidasfire]

Vaarsuvius x1000

Edit: Maybe not the character itself...but the over-analyzing discussion that occur after every single action (s)he takes.

Yeah, kinda weird how a True Neutral character gets accused of being evil more than evil characters like Redcloak and Thog.

[Kish]

Yeah, kinda weird how a True Neutral character gets accused of being evil more than evil characters like Redcloak and Thog.
Probably has something to do with Vaarsuvius having a higher body count than Redcloak or Thog.

(I know, we should ignore his/her actions and judge his/her morality by what it says on his/her character sheet.)

[EarFall]

Yeah, kinda weird how a True Neutral character gets accused of being evil more than evil characters like Redcloak and Thog.

It's Rich's world, and people play D&D differently.

A spell like Familicide, in many campaigns, would be more evil than most major villains are willing to go.

I am not trying to start a debate on this, but in most of my campaigns, or those in which I play, casting that spell on anything would be one of those "Fix it somehow, or you're in deep crap" type of things. I wouldn't say irredeemable, as everything in D&D, even devils and demons, are redeemable.

And no, i don't think V is more evil than Xykon, and if Rich says s/he is still neutral, then s/he is.

[Warren Dew]

Girard.

After that stunt with the 'haha the gate's not here haha' I seriously wanted to kick the paranoid **** in the balls. :smallannoyed:
Girard seems to be gone now, though, courtesy of Vaarsuvius.

I think maybe Horace Greenhilt is next on my list. He seems to have been at least as nasty to Eugene as Eugene was to Roy, and my sympathies are with Eugene, as a magic user, rather than with Horace and Roy, the sword swingers.

[Tannhaeuser]

That's easy. The Wizard who lived by the shore, servant of Spud, Son of Adki, who decided to turn one of my favourite dragons into electricity. The gory details are in Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales, or (sans Spud, Son of Adki) in Dragon #358.

NERD RAGE!!!!! :smallfurious:

I admit this may be kind of personal. :smallsmile:

My brother!



I have an intense dislike for Girard Draketooth, myself. He sanctimoniously assumes everyone else's sanctimony -- and is a fool for doing so, actually putting his own gate (and hence the entire world) at risk by his sneering disbelief in a code of personal honor, which the paladins actually never broke. I don't know if that's what the Giant intended, but I know I can't abide the smug reptile.

[Paseo H]

Girard seems to be gone now, though, courtesy of Vaarsuvius.

I think maybe Horace Greenhilt is next on my list. He seems to have been at least as nasty to Eugene as Eugene was to Roy, and my sympathies are with Eugene, as a magic user, rather than with Horace and Roy, the sword swingers.

Was this from a prequel book?

[t209]

My brother!



I have an intense dislike for Girard Draketooth, myself. He sanctimoniously assumes everyone else's sanctimony -- and is a fool for doing so, actually putting his own gate (and hence the entire world) at risk by his sneering disbelief in a code of personal honor, which the paladins actually never broke. I don't know if that's what the Giant intended, but I know I can't abide the smug reptile.

I think he's more like He-who-fights-monsters type. (COmplains about lawfulness and authority but his family worship him as god).

[Paseo H]

I have an intense dislike for Girard Draketooth, myself. He sanctimoniously assumes everyone else's sanctimony -- and is a fool for doing so, actually putting his own gate (and hence the entire world) at risk by his sneering disbelief in a code of personal honor, which the paladins actually never broke. I don't know if that's what the Giant intended, but I know I can't abide the smug reptile.

Well I doubt The Giant intends to hold anyone up specifically as some sort of paragon. Possibly not even Roy, though he's probably the best character in the story.

To everyone else, why the 'neutral' is judged more harshly than the evil, well in this particular case the 'neutral' committed an act that would make even Tarquin or Xykon double take, and if V confesses I half expect Belkar to show jealously.

[ti'esar]

I could never abide by that. Though, frankly, having never actually played D&D, the whole 'your alignment is what it says on your character sheet and not what you actually do' just seems stupid to me.

It's always been my understanding that if the character is played in a way that doesn't match the alignment on their character sheet, the DM is free to change it to an alignment that does fit their behavior.

[Omergideon]

It's always been my understanding that if the character is played in a way that doesn't match the alignment on their character sheet, the DM is free to change it to an alignment that does fit their behavior.

Isn't this how it should be played anyways? I have always imagined characters getting punished a fair bit if they insist on playing against their chosen alignment, especially regarding alignment specific feats/spells/magic items.

I mean even Nevrwinter nights changes alignment in lawful/good axis based on your dialogue and character choices.

[Kish]

Was this from a prequel book?
No. There's nothing about Horace in either prequel book.

[B. Dandelion]

No. There's nothing about Horace in either prequel book.

There is a little bit in SoD, not that he gets a speaking role.

(spoilered for anyone who cares about tiny tiny spoilers)Eugene says Fyron was more of a father to him than Horace, who does seem to have had the same disconnect with his son's hobbies that Eugene had with Roy's. He says he felt comfortable talking to him about his issues with women, which I guess he didn't do with Horace if his dad was surprised he didn't turn out gay.

Horace has yet to demonstrate as nasty an attitude towards Eugene as Eugene did to his own son, but that remark about how he's surprised Eugene liked girls is kind of... errgh. You could read a lot into that, if you were inclined. (I don't say you should.)

[Chobarth]

To everyone else, why the 'neutral' is judged more harshly than the evil, well in this particular case the 'neutral' committed an act that would make even Tarquin or Xykon double take, and if V confesses I half expect Belkar to show jealously.

Maybe, but Belkar might not enjoy it as much just because its so abstract. He wouldn't get to 'experience' the kills so to speak. Hard to tell with him. I mean, he do it for sure, if it was in his power, but not so satisfying...

Will be interesting to see how V attempts atonement now that full understanding has flooded in - it doesn't appear that it will get blown off. Killing a bunch of black dragons? Check. Killing an untold multitude of non-blackdragons? Reality Check.

[skim172]

...That's a lot of assertions. And all wrong.

You don't have to be the villain on a Lifetime movie to be a bad, uncaring father. You don't have to say, "Muahaha, I care nothing for my children and accept no responsibilities to them!" to neglect your children.

Child abandonment, spousal abuse, substance addiction - this isn't just stuff you see in a Lifetime movie. That kind of thing happens every single day. I guess we've got a fundamental divide here, because that kind of behavior defines "bad, uncaring father" to me.

Let's review. Eugene knocks up some girl he met at a bar. Rather than leave her or the child or get an abortion, he decides to marry her and raise the kid. He stays with the family and has two more children, one who tragically dies in childhood. Despite the intense pain and conflict that must have accompanied the death of the young son, the family remains together, which is commendable because even well-adjusted families often fall apart after that severe a tragedy. Eugene stays with his family, not just legally, but physically. He is a constant presence in his family's lives, even if it leads to conflict.

His wife doesn't work, they have no close extended family, and he has two children - yet they live very comfortably. So he's working hard and providing for his family well. Both his children are intelligent and good students - Roy is able to go to college and Julia is at a prestigious boarding school. Presumably, at least Julia is there on the family's largesse, and probably, Roy is getting some support, too. And despite the fact that Roy and Eugene had a "falling out," Eugene still shows up in Roy's life in very un-falling out fashion. When they're not fighting, they talk and converse together fairly casually and comfortably. In fact, (Origin of PC spoiler) it's Eugene that seeks out Roy when he's dying. Roy doesn't look for him.

Eugene and Julia seem to have a much healthier relationship than Eugene and Roy. And we know that Sara Greenhilt didn't like her husband - she tells Roy as much, and her mental image of herself in the afterlife is from before she met Eugene. She's an elderly woman, mother of two grown children, and she still sees herself as a teenager. She thinks Eugene ruined her life and apparently has never grown beyond that. She makes no reservation badmouthing her husband to Roy, so we can imagine that she told Roy such things when she was alive as well.

Yet despite the obvious rift in this family, stemming from the root of an irreparable husband-wife conflict, Eugene never left his family, and never divorced his wife. He clearly had the opportunity - some might've recommended it. But he made the decision to remain in what must've been an emotionally painful marriage until his death. In fact, he apparently didn't even cheat on his wife - he says he respected his wedding vows until after he died.


So, is Eugene a bad father? Roy is an extremely successful college graduate who lived well and never needed for anything, had a nuclear suburban family, two parents and two siblings - he's an upright, well-raised, intelligent, educated, eloquent, well-adjusted individual with strong leadership and moral compass - and he thinks his dad messed up his life. Which is ridiculous. His dad's not an addict, not a deadbeat, not abusive, not even a divorcee. And clearly, Roy's life is and has been pretty darn good (at least until he became an adventurer and died).

Does that make Eugene a good father? Not necessarily. But it makes Eugene someone who at least tried to be a good father. He's a guy who could've walked out on his family from the start, when he accidentally knocked up some barfly. But instead, he made the effort to be there for his family until he died.

Yes, there was a lot of conflict in that family. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the conflict wasn't Eugene's fault - he's got an obnoxiously stubborn personality who seems to seek out reasons to get angry rather than try to sympathize. He's got his own daddy issues (Horace more or less did the same thing to him that he did to Roy - for the same reason). He's emotionally distant and far too prideful for anyone's good, least of all his own. He's a contentious person and he holds on to grudges.

But despite all that, he tried. He tried and maybe he failed. And I could accuse him of that - he's a failed father, who didn't establish the strong connection with his son that he tried to. But I can't say, based on what we know of his history, that it makes sense to call him uncaring, neglectful, or abusive. He did things that even good fathers often fail to do.


Honestly, I think you're being naive. Uncaring fathers check out of their families, either physically or mentally, and it happens every hour of every day, not just in Lifetime movies. If your father even bothers to argue with you over your future, that's not a father who doesn't care.

[Nilan8888]

All of the OOTS have been through major character development over the course of the comic, all of them have changed and grown. Except Durkon. He's the same guy he ever was. That's generally a pretty boring narrative to follow, but it's even worse because Durkon's character is pretty dull anyhow. It's even played for laughs in the comic... once the OOTS re-unites, Durkon is "still unfashionably bearded", and that's it for his development. He's had no real personal character arc (except a long ago aborted one), and it was pretty short and boring. The guy is necessary glue for the group, like a chorus singer or a drummer, but he's individually dull.


The irony here is that Durkon was the FIRST character with any sort of development, and his strips with Hilgya and how he broke her heart was actually the first real "drama" that showed what this webcomic could do.

Durkon was the first character to start moving in that direction. The difference I guess is that since those first 50 strips, his character was the first to move, and hasn't moved since.

[Werekat]

My least favorite is currently Therkla. Out of the characters who had significant screen time, she was the least interesting for me, and when I read about her, I was just mostly wishing that the part with her would be over ASAP.

Skim, interesting points about Eugene, though. I hadn't thought about him that way. I don't think he's quite as good as you make him out to be - I've seen my share of "good" homes that had devastating consequences on the children, and what's described here is close to a few such scenarios - but you certainly make a couple of good points. The parents tried to keep their home straight and failed, but they did try - and I would think that is one of the reasons Roy himself has a "I have no idea if I'll succeed, but I will try" attitude, and why he takes even apparent failure well.

[Nilan8888]

Honestly, I think you're being naive. Uncaring fathers check out of their families, either physically or mentally, and it happens every hour of every day, not just in Lifetime movies. If your father even bothers to argue with you over your future, that's not a father who doesn't care.

Although I agree with much of what you say, I think you in turn are also being naiive.

Yes, fathers who check out of their families are bad fathers. But even worse fathers are those who abuse and manipulate their family to inflate their own egos and don't even have the decency to leave them alone anymore.

We have this barometer in our society that goes after deadbeat dads and renders them lowborn scum. And certainly those 'fathers' are in name only and should not be raised to any sort of platform ever -- but at least by getting the hell out they allowed their children to become their own person, albeit with many abandonment issues.

But could you imagine Xykon as a father? The best thing a monster like that COULD do is leave and never come back. He'd just treat a wife and children as his own slaves, and they'd literally be living nothing but wasted lives under his thumb.

[turkishvan2]

Miko. I'm not going to say why, because everyone before has said anything I could have, but yeah. I hated her. I guess at her death, I felt more sympathy for her and her situation, but she was still my least favorite.

[Dig]

Banjo the Clown.

[skim172]

Although I agree with much of what you say, I think you in turn are also being naiive.

Yes, fathers who check out of their families are bad fathers. But even worse fathers are those who abuse and manipulate their family to inflate their own egos and don't even have the decency to leave them alone anymore.

We have this barometer in our society that goes after deadbeat dads and renders them lowborn scum. And certainly those 'fathers' are in name only and should not be raised to any sort of platform ever -- but at least by getting the hell out they allowed their children to become their own person, albeit with many abandonment issues.

But could you imagine Xykon as a father? The best thing a monster like that COULD do is leave and never come back. He'd just treat a wife and children as his own slaves, and they'd literally be living nothing but wasted lives under his thumb.

A good point. I guess I would generally include such a father under "mentally checked out" in the sense that such a guy has no interest in building a close, emotional connection with his kin. But then again, such a manipulative bastard would have to be pretty involved in his family. And there are plenty of those types who keep a family around because they enjoy the benefits, rather than actually be a dad.

But if Eugene is that kind of sociopathic deceiver, it would certainly be a revelation. He seems to be a rather blunt, artless guy. I'm not sure he fits the bill.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying Eugene is a good guy or a good father. But I'm saying that to me, it seems like he made an effort, and while in the end, he was a crappy father, at least he meant well. Maybe his family would've been better off without him, but I just don't think Eugene intentionally set out to be the villain.

I don't like Eugene as a character because he seems incomplete. It feels like there's something about this guy that's missing, that we haven't seen. Either he's secretly a well-intentioned guy who turned out a crappy father, or he's a terrible person whose terribleness we just haven't seen the full extent of yet. Because the guy who doesn't hesitate to tell Roy he's totally okay with never seeing his family again doesn't match up with the guy who stuck around for 30-odd years.

Maybe he is a sociopath who stuck around a family for his entire life just to mess with them. That would make the picture complete. Something like that. Otherwise, it feels like I'm just being told, "Eugene is a bad man and nothing else. Ignore any signs to the contrary." Which, for the level of storytelling this comic has, feels really out of place.

[Kish]

Child abandonment, spousal abuse, substance addiction - this isn't just stuff you see in a Lifetime movie. That kind of thing happens every single day. I guess we've got a fundamental divide here, because that kind of behavior defines "bad, uncaring father" to me.

We sure do.

You've made a lot of assertions of qualities Eugene would need to have to be a bad father. Necessary conditions for "bad father." He would need to refuse to pay for Roy's college tuition. He would need to divorce Roy's mother. He would need to have a worse relationship with Roy's sister than you consider to have been indicated. Now you add "substance addiction" and "spousal abuse."


Honestly, I think you're being naive.
Not all the ad hominems in the world will make "If your father is paying your tuition, then he's not a bad father, no other information necessary" a non-horrific assertion.

(Prediction: Your reply will be some variation on "if your father is paying your tuition then he's not as bad as he could be," as though that meant he wasn't bad.)

[Math_Mage]

Eugene has been a good provider for his family, but a number of very important failures (Roy's little brother, the Blood Oath, his refusal to accept Roy's chosen career) make it impossible to call him a good FATHER.

[SavageWombat]

Well, as we've established, being LG in OotSworld is about how hard you try, right? So Eugene, self-described LG, decided that when he'd wound up an involuntary father, he had to try to live up to the responsibility.

Yes, he screwed it up big time. And he needs to admit that to himself before he'll get into the big golden gates. But at least he tried, which is more than some can say.

[SaintRidley]

Well, as we've established, being LG in OotSworld is about how hard you try, right? So Eugene, self-described LG, decided that when he'd wound up an involuntary father, he had to try to live up to the responsibility.

Yes, he screwed it up big time. And he needs to admit that to himself before he'll get into the big golden gates. But at least he tried, which is more than some can say.

Did he try? He doesn't seem to have done much caring or trying before he died.

[Smolder]

Miko. I'm not going to say why, because everyone before has said anything I could have, but yeah. I hated her. I guess at her death, I felt more sympathy for her and her situation, but she was still my least favorite.

For me, Miko was the most predictable and uninteresting character, her constant righteous indignation just slowed down the story with stale jokes and no plot progression.

It wasn't until Miko fell that I actually stopped hating her. Her failings and vulnerabilities redeemed the sappy cliches and stereotypes of her earlier appearances. I was actually hoping Tsukiko would raise her as a death knight or something.

[MeanMrsMustard]

Well, [Celia's] "you adventures are murderous psychos"attitude is pretty much what I enjoyed about her.
Meh, I think that issue was better handled in Darths and Droids. Behold. (http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0071.html)
Personally, I despise Belkar. It's kind of a weird kind of despising: I can acknowledge his awesome acts, but he's just so infuriating. Grr. :smallmad:

[Idhan]

Well, her "you adventures are murderous psychos"-attitude is pretty much what I enjoyed about her.

I don't have a big problem with Celia, but I think it is a touch strange how judgmental she is of Haley when she's dating Roy. Why does she think Roy has that big ol' sword?

[Warren Dew]

Horace has yet to demonstrate as nasty an attitude towards Eugene as Eugene did to his own son, but that remark about how he's surprised Eugene liked girls is kind of... errgh. You could read a lot into that, if you were inclined. (I don't say you should.)
Yes.

We haven't seen Horace and Eugene interact directly at all. I think it's pretty easy to imagine that there wouldn't be anything positive in that interaction. Heck, Horace even brings up Eugene to complain about him behind his back when he's not there.

At least Eugene had the decency to help Roy out when he needed help, what with the hint on how to defeat the linear guild, and scrying for him when he wanted to know why he hadn't been resurrected in three months. Sure, Eugene griped about it, but he did do it - and to me, actions speak louder than words.

[oppyu]

In my opinion, Therkla had the worst character depth to screen-time ratio. She filled the role of any significant female minion in a James Bond movie; fall in love with the hero, and then either turn good because the hero is just that charming, or die a violent death. I think she could have been interesting if she stuck around and was fleshed-out and tried to work with the Lawful Good Azure city forces. Instead, she was used in the process of maturing Elan (and providing one of the sadder moments of the comic).

So, useful as a plot device in Elan's story, but didn't add much as a character.

[Psyren]

Nale/Sabine. Hell, I just want the entire LG to bite it in a big way. The messier they go out the better.

I was cheering when Thog got pasted, even if he probably will show up again later to be a pain in my neck.

[Gift Jeraff]

Since people seem to be talking more about who they find most annoying, my least favorite character in that regard is Vaarsuvius, with Redcloak a distant second. Too arrogant for my tastes, and unlike Nale or Tarquin they're not as funny about it.

Plus I just want to strangle Redcloak for not listening to Right-Eye and still trying to convince himself he's making the right choices.

EDIT: However, Tarquin gets special mention as the only character I want to see suffer. I want him humiliated, crying, and realizing that he's not-so-above the alignment system when he rots in Baator for all eternity. I blame the "I hope Tarquin, who is obviously Chaotic Neutral and can definitely solo Xykon, gets his happy ending" people for this weird desire.

[veti]

EDIT: However, Tarquin gets special mention as the only character I want to see suffer. I want him humiliated, crying, and realizing that he's not-so-above the alignment system when he rots in Baator for all eternity.

I too want to see him humiliated, crying, realising that he's made a monumental screw-up of everything he ever cared about, but I want to see him doing it in this life. Possibly just before Sabine kills him. Baator would be a cop-out - anyone can be sorry when their soul is being melted down - that's not penitence, that's just misery.

[Chobarth]

I too want to see him humiliated, crying, realising that he's made a monumental screw-up of everything he ever cared about, but I want to see him doing it in this life. Possibly just before Sabine kills him. Baator would be a cop-out - anyone can be sorry when their soul is being melted down - that's not penitence, that's just misery.

Ummm..... least favorite character. Yes, I got that. But what is the monumental screw-up that he is supposed to gain some clarity about?

You're facing a character who pretty much has attained everything he cares about - at this point it's just style points, legendary status, and making the empire ever bigger as a way to pass the time between wives. A couple set-backs here and there. But this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html

Tarquin just doesn't seem to be the humiliated / crying type...

[skim172]

We sure do.

You've made a lot of assertions of qualities Eugene would need to have to be a bad father. Necessary conditions for "bad father." He would need to refuse to pay for Roy's college tuition. He would need to divorce Roy's mother. He would need to have a worse relationship with Roy's sister than you consider to have been indicated. Now you add "substance addiction" and "spousal abuse."

Not all the ad hominems in the world will make "If your father is paying your tuition, then he's not a bad father, no other information necessary" a non-horrific assertion.

(Prediction: Your reply will be some variation on "if your father is paying your tuition then he's not as bad as he could be," as though that meant he wasn't bad.)

If yo' daddy payin' yer college, he ain't not that bad.


I think maybe I need to be clearer in what I mean. I'm saying that I personally don't consider him to be a bad father, in the sense that he intentionally pursued a path of abuse and pain for his child and family, but that I do consider him to be a failed father, in that while the results show that he did not succeed in establish a close emotional relationship with his son and family, the circumstances of Roy's life indicates that his father did at least apply some effort towards that goal. I am making the assertion (singular) that it is unlikely that Eugene would have gone through all the trouble and effort that he did unless he had some intentions of being a good father.

Spousal abuse and substance addiction were several examples of indicators that would cast doubt on whether Eugene had such good intentions. I'm not asserting that these are absolute conditions necessary to be a bad father, but I am asserting that intentions and, especially, effort do matter in fatherhood.

I also would like to clarify that I wasn't making an attack on your character - I should be more specific and say that the implication that issues of spousal abuse are restricted to "villains in a Lifetime movie" sounded like a naive statement.

Perhaps the conflict here is the very loose range of definition of the descriptor, "bad." To go into more detail, I'm saying that Eugene does not seem to me to be a destructive, malicious force in Roy's life. I would say that Eugene has been, overall, been beneficial, supplying Roy with many material and immaterial assets. At the same time, he's caused much emotional trauma due to the level of conflict within their home. However, that emotional trauma was not the intended product of Eugene's efforts. And lastly, this seems incongruous with the manipulative, malevolent side of Eugene that we have seen and the accusations of such that he receives from family members.

But has he been a negative force in Roy's life as well? Oh, hell yeah.

[Hallavast]

I tried to think of someone I dislike more than Elan. It took me a long time to figure it out. And overall this exercise has made me remember why I like this comic so much.

But the character that won was Eugene. Roy's father is a selfish, opinionated know-it-all who abandons his principles and obligations, yet still has the temerity to assert his sense of superiority on the few people with which he has contact. I don't like him much. And I don't even find him very compelling or worthy of talking about.

The character I used to hate is Elan. I'm not going to go on about how his character has progressed, because I don't think Elan has changed as much as I have changed. I used to hate him because he was so damn blissfully ignorant of everything, and he shoved it in the face of people who's attitudes were more burdened by the state of the world. He's happy, handsome, popular and carefree. These are all things that I was not. And I was always annoyed by and even envious of him, because to me, he represented people I'd met who were like that.

But eventually, my attitude changed. How could I blame him for being happy and carefree when that was what I was aspiring to? I realized that his attitude did not reflect his lack of concern for things, and that he wasn't exactly smug in how he viewed life. He is an honest person that genuinely seeks to do good for the sake of the world. And I've come to realize that people like this are truly rare, and this shouldn't be overlooked for such trivial objections.

So while he's still not my favorite character, I wouldn't hesitate to trust him with a weapon in the event of a domestic conflict or zombie apocalypse. And that, I think, is the true measure of whether you like someone or not.

[willpell]

Of the OOTS, by far my least favorite is Durkon; he's just kinda there, getting few good jokes and doing very little of interest. Which is perfect for a cleric and typical of dwarves (not my favorite species, I'm afraid), but not for an interesting character.

Out of all the characters who have played any significant role, I haven't put very deep thought into which I like least, but high on the list would have to be Leeky Woodstaff; he's just too much of a cliche, having no more reason for any of what he does than "I'm an evil druid". Done well, an evil druid is one of the most fascinating character types to me, just because of the values dissonance between protecting nature and going south of Neutral on the alignment meter (if you just kill people who you can reasonably argue deserve death for what they've done, with some hope of a sane and decent person thinking you have a point, you could easily fit within the central alignment band; Evil needs to be less justifiable than that, but druids in general tend toward the justified, so it's some fascinating tension). Leeky is not done even remotely well; much like Durkon, he simply takes up a slot without really seeming like an individual.

[Hallavast]

Of the OOTS, by far my least favorite is Durkon; he's just kinda there, getting few good jokes and doing very little of interest. Which is perfect for a cleric and typical of dwarves (not my favorite species, I'm afraid), but not for an interesting character.

Out of all the characters who have played any significant role, I haven't put very deep thought into which I like least, but high on the list would have to be Leeky Woodstaff; he's just too much of a cliche, having no more reason for any of what he does than "I'm an evil druid". Done well, an evil druid is one of the most fascinating character types to me, just because of the values dissonance between protecting nature and going south of Neutral on the alignment meter (if you just kill people who you can reasonably argue deserve death for what they've done, with some hope of a sane and decent person thinking you have a point, you could easily fit within the central alignment band; Evil needs to be less justifiable than that, but druids in general tend toward the justified, so it's some fascinating tension). Leeky is not done even remotely well; much like Durkon, he simply takes up a slot without really seeming like an individual.
I find this to be very true about both characters. They simply fill the slot, as you say. No real character there other than to represent a race/class combo and make the associated jokes. This disappoints me even more because I really like dwarves.

If you look into a common flavor text for the Dwarf race, the line that their society holds life dedication to routine, hard work, and determination, you discover a goldmine of character opportunities. As someone who works with their hands, I see a shade of this attitude (and a lot of what probably inspired dwarven culture) in people who work in mills and workshops. A race of people who are taught, accept and generally KNOW what the right way to do almost anything can be a great resource for some inspired writing. That hasn't really happened with Durkon.

[BlackDragonKing]

When she was alive, Miko, mostly because I hate people who blame others for their own shortcomings and the self-righteous killer paladin always grates on me.

Nowadays, probably Nale. He's just sort of pathetic at this point, but the guy's like a cockroach; nobody can seem to get rid of him even though he's clearly a minnow in the shark tank of OotS baddies. He's just as smug, cruel, or short-sighted as any other villain in the comic, but he's also incompetent and his plan seems to be the usual two-step of "ambush the Order with the latest batch of evil opposites, have them on the wrong foot for a few panels until they turn around and stomp us." Yeah, people do think a little too highly of Tarquin, but give me a competent pragmatist like that over a loser egomaniac like Nale any day.

[R. Shackleford]

Thog. I hope he's dead. He was never funny.

[Libertad]

Thog. I hope he's dead. He was never funny.

I wouldn't be so harsh, but Thog's my least favorite as well. His brand of humor's pretty much the same throughout the arcs.

[Math_Mage]

Spousal abuse and substance addiction were several examples of indicators that would cast doubt on whether Eugene had such good intentions. I'm not asserting that these are absolute conditions necessary to be a bad father, but I am asserting that intentions and, especially, effort do matter in fatherhood.

Heavy nitpick, but this is often independent of the existence of good intentions. Addiction doesn't come from not caring or not having good intentions; it develops from certain addictive personality characteristics into a physiological compulsion.

[Raimun]

That's a hard one.

None of the characters actually annoy me as a reader. Also, I think all of the recurring (and most of the one-off) characters have had something interesting and/or funny to say.

Even if I find some of them horrible in moral sense (Miko, Xykon, Vaarsuvius, Red Cloak, Belkar, Eugene, Kubota, etc.) I don't really dislike them, as in I find them unnecessary and would like to see them removed from the comic retroactively.

Thing is, having lots of different characters clash against each other makes this comic work. IMO, The Order of Stick has one of the best large casts (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoadsAndLoadsOfCharacters) ever.

... In order to not be a total fan boy, I'll have to express my utter dissatisfaction with the character of the owlbear. He had no foreshadowing, just stood there, only ever uttered one word (literally!) which wasn't that funny, barely interracted with anyone, wasn't particularly dynamic and ultimately died off-screen... and don't even get me started on the lack of his character development and irrelevance to the main plot. Also, I kind of always liked owlbears, so I was expecting more of him.

I hate you, Owlbear. :smallannoyed:

[Kish]

I also would like to clarify that I wasn't making an attack on your character - I should be more specific and say that the implication that issues of spousal abuse are restricted to "villains in a Lifetime movie" sounded like a naive statement.
That was not my implication. I still wonder where the entire concept that "spousal abuse" has relevance here came from.

I implied, rather, that you looked at a realistic bad, neglectful father, who lacks the "horrifically one-dimensional evil" qualities found in the "abusive father" in a Lifetime movie, said he was "unrealistic," and described (in exhaustive detail, yet) an extremely specific and utterly lacking in redeeming qualities character who he would have to be to be "realistic" and still be a bad father...and the character you described, your apparent template for Bad Father, would qualify to be a villain in a Lifetime movie.

[B. Dandelion]

I just object to the derailed characterization of Sara we need to make Eugene sympathetic.


Eugene knocks up some girl he met at a bar. Rather than leave her or the child or get an abortion,

I like how "get an abortion" is an option open to Eugene! If Sara didn't want an abortion, it wouldn't matter what Eugene thought, and likewise if she did want one. Eugene gets no brownie points for not forcing his own choice onto her. It's good that he didn't, you know, skip town rather than get saddled with a family, I will grant, although I think that's setting the bar a bit low, but I won't credit him for choices that were never his.


His wife doesn't work,

Where's the evidence of that?


Sara Greenhilt didn't like her husband - she tells Roy as much,

She doesn't really say that. She seems kinda disappointed in him, that he "lost interest" in her as his woman but was stuck with her out of obligation rather than love. She still does have some understanding and sympathy for him, sticking up for him to a degree.


and her mental image of herself in the afterlife is from before she met Eugene. She's an elderly woman, mother of two grown children, and she still sees herself as a teenager.

That monster, enjoying an ideal version of herself after she dies.


She thinks Eugene ruined her life

She doesn't say that, she doesn't say she regrets any of it and wouldn't have done it if she'd known. She just prefers, now that she's dead, to spend her afterlife enjoying herself as a young and attractive woman unburdened with the societal obligations she had to uphold while alive.


and apparently has never grown beyond that. She makes no reservation badmouthing her husband to Roy, so we can imagine that she told Roy such things when she was alive as well.

Where are you getting this, seriously? She sticks up for Eugene. Yes, she comes down on him for his flaws as well, but this image of her as a completely bitter and hateful person pouring poison into the ears of her children bears no resemblance to the woman we've seen on screen.


Yet despite the obvious rift in this family, stemming from the root of an irreparable husband-wife conflict,

which is apparently all her fault


Eugene never left his family, and never divorced his wife. He clearly had the opportunity - some might've recommended it.

Who? Where are these third-party neutral observers that would look at faithful Eugene's shrewish wife and her brats and tell him it would be the right thing to do to skip down? They may have existed, and if so, we should lend serious weight to their recommendations?


But he made the decision to remain in what must've been an emotionally painful marriage until his death. In fact, he apparently didn't even cheat on his wife - he says he respected his wedding vows until after he died.

I'm pretty sure Sara did, too.


He's a guy who could've walked out on his family from the start, when he accidentally knocked up some barfly.

The fact that he met her in a bar shouldn't make that the sum total of her character. They were together for a while, apparently, before the birth control charm failed, so it's not like it was a one-night stand for the two of them.

[Kish]

Thanks for pointing out the out-of-nowhere character assassination of Sara, B. Dandelion. My eyes had glazed over in a "wait, why are all these wacked-out sociopathic monster things apparently necessary for someone to be a bad father?" way before I got that far.

I stand corrected: Lifetime wouldn't air this movie.

[ti'esar]

How did this thread become a referendum on the moral and parental qualities of Eugene Greenhilt, anyway?

[Hironomus]

I have no qualms with Eugene's Morality or his parenting skills personally. He reminds me a little of my father actually. We argue alot (ALOT) but that's only because of difference in personality. He is a perfectly good father. Likewise Eugene seems fine to me. A jerk sure, but as we see in SoD His blood oath was really the only thing keeping him out of "Heaven".
Especially early comic he seemed more caring. The only time I have really had cause to seriously doubt his relationship with his family was when Roy made him promise never to contact them in the afterlife and he agreed. That was kind of a shock to me. That Roy would say that and that Eugene would agree. Was this a slap in the face to anyone else?

The only other time was in SoD when He told Roy he would have left his family to pursue Xykon if he had any leads. But this is proven untrue in the same book as he refuses to go after Xykon even knowing his exact location because he has a family.
Because of this it seems to me that Eugene actually wants his family to hate him, or at least wants them to think he doesn't care about them.
What does this all mean? Hopefully time will tell.

[Kish]

The only time I have really had cause to seriously doubt his relationship with his family was when Roy made him promise never to contact them in the afterlife and he agreed. That was kind of a shock to me. That Roy would say that and that Eugene would agree. Was this a slap in the face to anyone else?
It was to Roy, remember? He expressed disappointment, if not surprise, that Eugene would agree instantly.

[KoboldITP27]

The Half Ogre with a Spiked Chain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html) is my least favorite character.

Seriously, Spring Attack? Not Improved Trip? Come on. The entire purpose of his character is to be a cheesy optimized build and he's not optimized. Shame on you HOwaSC. Shame.

[Zea mays]

YukYuk the cat-shooting kobold. :smallfurious:
I do not approve of the punishment meted onto him by Belkar, V and Mr. Scruffy, but he's still a ****.

[doodthedud]

Least favorite as in "I hate that despicable bastard!"?

Or Least Favorite as in "underdeveloped and underwhelming character"?

For the former, I'd say that little Imp Kubota used to have.

For the latter, I can't think of any character that has failed to achieve their purpose and role.

[Super_slash2]

Miko.

I have known people like her. I hate her the most.

[Dr.Epic]

That jerk hobgoblin cleric who killed the demon roach; I hate him so much I won't even call him by his name.:smallmad:

[turkishvan2]

Oh yeah, and while I don't hate them as much as Miko, Ian, Tsukiko, and the entirety of Team Peregrine are characters I hate, too.

[Grey Watcher]

I think I dislike Haerta the most, because the Familicide Mega-Thread gives me a headache.

[LordVader]

Elan really grinds on my nerves, especially his refusal to acknowledge that Tarquin might be anything but irredeemably Evil in all aspects after the lessons Therkla should have taught him.

I love his ridiculous flair for the dramatic, but his childish personality just kind of grinds at me at this point. He's too stupid to live, really. Although, he did display remarkable competence in the fight with the Linear Guild, so perhaps things are changing for the better.

[skaddix]

Elan really grinds on my nerves, especially his refusal to acknowledge that Tarquin might be anything but irredeemably Evil in all aspects after the lessons Therkla should have taught him.

I love his taste for the dramatic and ridiculous flair, but his childish personality just kind of grinds at me at this point. He's too stupid to live, really. Although, he did display remarkable competence in the fight with the Linear Guild, so perhaps things are changing for the better.

Indeed Elan is a lot less annoying now that he actually contributes in combat with competent sword skills and thanks to Therkla, some useful spells.

[ti'esar]

That jerk hobgoblin cleric who killed the demon roach; I hate him so much I won't even call him by his name.:smallmad:

Funnily enough, I like Jirix much better then the demon roaches - while they are funny too often to come close to qualifying for this list, they can be rather annoying at times, and as someone who dislikes Statler and Waldorf types, I find their demises rather cathartic. Don't snark at a story unless you're safely behind the fourth wall, guys.


I think I dislike Haerta the most, because the Familicide Mega-Thread gives me a headache.

Now this, on the other hand, I definitely agree with.

Incidentally, does anyone else find the fact that this thread is about twice as long as the favorite characters one ...interesting?

[J's]

Child abandonment, spousal abuse, substance addiction - this isn't just stuff you see in a Lifetime movie. That kind of thing happens every single day. I guess we've got a fundamental divide here, because that kind of behavior defines "bad, uncaring father" to me.

snip


Honestly, I think you're being naive. Uncaring fathers check out of their families, either physically or mentally, and it happens every hour of every day, not just in Lifetime movies. If your father even bothers to argue with you over your future, that's not a father who doesn't care.

No, you are describing criminals who need to be removed from their families and society by law. there are more subtle ways to be a bad parent, and they hurt the child just as much.

Eugene is hateable the same way Girard, Cilia, V, and Ian are. They are so full of themselves that any one who is different from them is evil misguided fool, or in their way. Eugene isn't a bad parent because he beat his son, he is a bad parent because his son isn't a copy of Eugene, and therefore Roy got told on a daily basis that he was worthless. Little sis didn't get that because she was enough like daddy. And the little we have seen of Horace suggests that he was the same as Eugene (also possible that Eugene developed his hatred of fighters and destroyed the relationship, but less likely).

I didn't hate Miko, I saw her as a foil for getting people to see past alignment (and read it all in one sitting since I got here after that was written). Ceilia's in ability to do what was necessary due to her conscience didn't annoy me, nor did her negotiating with what she had at her disposal, once she was on footing she knew she acted and acted quickly.

I hate Quarr and Nale. They over estimate themselves and assume the info they have is complete and will get them up the ladder.
Ian is annoying, and haven't seen enough of Girard to have a feeling one way or the other. I do hate Eugene, he had 20 stable years to get over himself and put his family first, something he seems to have failed at even with his physical presence.

[Math_Mage]

Elan really grinds on my nerves, especially his refusal to acknowledge that Tarquin might be anything but irredeemably Evil in all aspects after the lessons Therkla should have taught him.

I love his ridiculous flair for the dramatic, but his childish personality just kind of grinds at me at this point. He's too stupid to live, really. Although, he did display remarkable competence in the fight with the Linear Guild, so perhaps things are changing for the better.

I'm confused. Are you annoyed that Elan was so slow to accept that his father is Evil (man, 2 whole days!), that he continues to search for a way to redeem Tarquin (because the proper course of action is of course to abandon one's father as a lost cause)...or, as your wording implies, that Elan refuses to consider Tarquin anything but irredeemable? I'm presuming that was a miswording.

[rbetieh]

Eugene isn't a bad parent because he beat his son, he is a bad parent because his son isn't a copy of Eugene, and therefore Roy got told on a daily basis that he was worthless. Little sis didn't get that because she was enough like daddy.

Is there any proof that Eugene abused his son in this way? Questioning your sons wisdom in making certain decisions isn't calling them worthless you know. Heck, the fact that he questions those decisions shows that he thinks Roy could do better. I think his worst trait was being aloof to the point where Roy felt ignored; which any sibling that sees the other getting spoiled rotten would think. But Roy is a responsible adult because his father made him justify every decision in his life. Roy has conviction now, and that is a great trait to pass down to you son.

[SpaceBadger]

I just object to the derailed characterization of Sara we need to make Eugene sympathetic.

**snip**


Thank you. I was just preparing to write a very similar post re Sara, and you have saved me the trouble. I'm glad I continued reading the thread before writing my own post on this.

[LordVader]

I'm confused. Are you annoyed that Elan was so slow to accept that his father is Evil (man, 2 whole days!), that he continues to search for a way to redeem Tarquin (because the proper course of action is of course to abandon one's father as a lost cause)...or, as your wording implies, that Elan refuses to consider Tarquin anything but irredeemable? I'm presuming that was a miswording.

No, specifically what annoys me is that Elan assumes Tarquin is going to kill him because "you're Evil!", and can't understand why he doesn't, when the encounter with Therkla should have shown Elan that characters who do evil things can still love somebody.

I've also yet to see that Elan considers him redeemable; wanting to defeat him in a manner which doesn't make Tarquin look incredibly badass is not redeeming Tarquin.

[Gift Jeraff]

Therkla did not do anything to the level of burning 30something people alive.

[LordVader]

Therkla did not do anything to the level of burning 30something people alive.

No, she just killed innocent people for money. Still pretty evil.

[Gift Jeraff]

No, she just killed innocent people for money. Still pretty evil.Elan never witnessed that, and that's really all that matters when we're talking about Elan's perception of people. There's a big difference between "I'm a murderer" and "I'm a murderer, here are my victims," in regards to how you view that person.

[Tvtyrant]

That's how I want him to be, yes, but to me there are suggestions now and then that he's actually employing obfuscating stupidity (which has become a pretty popular idea with some readers), when he does things like arranging Miko's escape. That would have made more sense to me if it had been Redcloak's idea, or something they came up with together. Also, even when he focuses on something, he just isn't (or at least shouldn't be) that bright. I certainly don't have a big problem with him, I just feel like he varies at times, and I really don't want to see a big reveal where we find out that it really was all an act and he's a super genius. :smalltongue:

Actually the letting Miko go thing was brilliant. It allowed all of the petty nobles to get out of the city before he got there. Imagine if Kubata and the rest had been bottle up in the city because there wasn't anyway out; then he would have been facing a much larger defensive force that would be fighting for civilian lives rather than just for an empty town. Kubata couldn't have maintained his position if he allowed the town to be massacred, so even if he could have personally escaped it would have destroyed him (and the other nobles).

My least favorite character is the ABD. It chose to go torture someone's family rather than make the sane decision, which would be to go acquire a scroll of wish and wish its child back to life.

[Omergideon]

No, she just killed innocent people for money. Still pretty evil.

The difference with Tarquin is that he has demonstrated a significant degree of self analysis, introspection and awareness of just how evil he is. And having weighed things up has chosen evil as his course in life. He has no excuses, no reasons and no expressed desire to change. He fully understands his place in the moral scheme of life and is convinced he will have the last laugh. (granted he is not the main villain of the piece by a long shot, but that is mere ego causing the confusion).

Therkla showed none of this willing and free choice to be evil. We do not know enough to decide that. Elan did not know enough to decide that. It was only after Tarquin basically flashed a giant "I am unrepentently eveil, I know I am evil and I could not care less cos being the villain rocks" that Elan began to think him unsaveable.

[Math_Mage]

No, specifically what annoys me is that Elan assumes Tarquin is going to kill him because "you're Evil!", and can't understand why he doesn't, when the encounter with Therkla should have shown Elan that characters who do evil things can still love somebody.

I've also yet to see that Elan considers him redeemable; wanting to defeat him in a manner which doesn't make Tarquin look incredibly badass is not redeeming Tarquin.

Therkla wasn't exactly explicit about her checkered past with Elan, and Elan went to great lengths never to see anything bad about Therkla. So I don't see any reason why that storyline should have taught Elan that lesson.

Fair enough on the other point.

[Myou]

Actually the letting Miko go thing was brilliant.

That was what I said in my post. :smalltongue:

[Myou]

Actually the letting Miko go thing was brilliant.

That was what I said in my post. :smalltongue:

[Jaros]

I don't think Xykon's ever been particularly stupid, it's just that he usually doesn't care about tactics, partly because of his whole sledgehammer/insurmountable force philosophy. Like it's already been noted, he's demonstrated a decent level of smarts on occasions, and I get the feeling various events over the last few books have him in the habit of thinking more, which can't be good for anyone else.

[olthar]

Celia.

She started as a fun foil to Haley and an interesting opposite to Belkar, but she became annoying and self-righteous. Yes, I understand the whole "put a regular person with a regular person's responses into a D&D situation" idea, but I find nothing more annoying than hypocrisy. If she really believed what she said, then she would have tried to work a peaceful situation right away instead of playing the distraction while Haley killed people. Just because she didn't shoot the arrow doesn't mean she didn't kill people and the lawyer in her should know that.

[veti]

I just object to the derailed characterization of Sara we need to make Eugene sympathetic.

You're quite right... but really, it's no different from the character assassination of Eugene that we see much more frequently. In this thread alone I've seen him accused of beating his son and telling him "on a daily basis" that he was worthless, of having "no redeeming qualities whatsoever". Heck, in the past I've seen him accused of levels of neglect up to and including the manslaughter of Eric.

In life, Eugene didn't get on with his son, or his father. Most of the people who "hate" him are taking what Roy says about his father as canonical. But the fact that (as you observe) Sara stands up for him, suggests that he probably does have redeeming qualities. Possibly lots of them. Heck, the fact that it's Celestia he's waiting to get into, rather than - some other place - should tell us that much.

Just because two people don't get on, doesn't prove that either one of them is wicked, evil, vicious or otherwise dislikeable. The list of people that Roy dislikes/has badmouthed also includes Shojo, Elan and Julia, but I don't see anyone accusing them of being utterly without redeeming qualities. On the other hand, he gets along quite well with Vaarsuvius, and even Belkar most of the time.

[[TS] Shadow]

I think people need to take a quick look at Eugene's gravestone again:

Master Wizard
Devoted Husband
Passable Father

Obviously, Eugene was never physically violent with his children. He likely loved them very much and would probably have sacrificed his life for them. But is he a good father? No. A good father doesn't miss all of his son's events while growing up (a school play is mentioned in the main strip, and I think that some sporting events are mentioned in OtOoPCs and SoD). A good father doesn't rub all of his accomplishments in his son's face (essentially saying to his son "this is what you have to live up to!") A good father doesn't state, outright, that his son is inferior to his daughter. Eugene is a lot like Miko in a way; he meets all of the Lawful Good "requirements" while not being a particularly pleasant person. Is he irredeemably bad or a horrible father? No, he's just sort of a jacka**. A lot of fathers are jacka**es, and they still love their kids and their kids still love them.

Anyway, back on topic, as for MY least favorite character? Well, it always kinda annoyed me how much development Haley got when compared to the other members of the Order. I know that she has the most backstory and stuff, but it always seemed like she got too much screen time. Spread the love a little bit, yah know? I should state that I don't HATE Haley, though.

Actually, I felt a lot of hate for Hinjo around the time of Shojo's death. Shojo was doing what he thought was the right thing, and Hinjo totally looked right past that and was willing to throw his Uncle to the ruthless Azurite courts. I mean, I guess I understand his viewpoint (esspecially when you consider the fact that Shojo HAD been lying to him about his mental illness for years,) but at that point I was angry at Hinjo. Good always trumps Law, at least for me.

[skaddix]

I think Hinjo had a natural reaction. I mean it all got dropped along with news of a major invasion so he was probably pretty stressed.

[Paseo H]

Elan really grinds on my nerves, especially his refusal to acknowledge that Tarquin might be anything but irredeemably Evil in all aspects after the lessons Therkla should have taught him.

I love his ridiculous flair for the dramatic, but his childish personality just kind of grinds at me at this point. He's too stupid to live, really. Although, he did display remarkable competence in the fight with the Linear Guild, so perhaps things are changing for the better.

In fairness to Elan...since when was "shoot the villain from the hip the moment he presents himself" the Good Aligned way of doing things? Especially when said villain is your own father? Taking the 'decisive' route against villains tends to be more of an antihero thing, simply because if it becomes habitual, one may end up doing it against someone less worthy of instant death.

Complete Monster or not, I really can't blame Elan for not doing the right thing and ending his father's wickedness forthwith, especially when as said in the comic they'd just resurrect him anyway.

Speaking of Elan though...I really hate how Haley still seems to think of Elan is an idiotic simpleton. Not because he isn't, of course he is, we all know that...but if she's not willing to respect her man as the pinnacle of manhood and all goodness, why is she in a relationship with him? It seems disrespectful.

Before anyone objects, let's turn it around...if a man got with a woman but commented aside to friends semi-regularly that she's a scatterbrained fool, would one not be justified in second guessing his true respect for her?

[androkguz]

X is not an evil genius: he is a genius of Evil. Above every other character on the comic, Xykon is dedicated to himself and himself only. Plus, he gets other characters, full of fears and guilt and loyalty and love and just exploits the crap out of that.

:redcloak: is, in Xykon's words, "a whiny 'evil but for a good cause'" type of villian. He is limited, because he feels guilt... about killing his brother, about those that have died under his command. He is limited because he feels he has a duty: to his god and his race. Xykon doesn't have any of this weakness: he will never feel guilt or a duty for anything. Because he is Evil.

:nale: is not so dedicated to himself as you would think. He is dedicated to his image and his ego. He is limited because he can't let go of something that hurts his ego, like his brother refusing him or his father not accepting he should be crowned. He is limited because he needs other to know how superior and smarted he is. Xykon doesn't have any of this weaknesses. He can easily beg for mercy when Fyron defeats him, only to take advange of the wizard's good nature. He has no trouble letting RC think he is ignorant of many stuff. He doesn't even remember Roy, the only guy that has detroyed him.

:tarquin: is not dedicated to himself alone at all. He is got many loved ones and he is not nearly as ambitious. He is dedicated to his legacy, not really Tarquin. He is limited, because he is willing to settle. He will never conquer the world. He is too afraid that his empire will fall for him to risk making it bigger to fast. He is also too focused on being a cool villian that would be remembered. Xykon couldn't care less that he captured Azure City.

[androkguz]

Double post

[androkguz]

Triple post. Sorry

[tcrudisi]

There are two that I absolutely despise.

Miko. I can't express how much I hated Miko.

But as bad as Miko was, there is one character who, for me, actually ranks as one of the worst characters in any media. Celia. Other than the young girl from the Liveship Traders trilogy, Celia is the character that I would take the most satisfaction in seeing die. I don't want to express vulgarity, but Celia deserves everything evil that ever comes her way for the way that she treated Haley and the rest of the OotS.

Ugh. Just talking about Miko and Celia makes me want to type out things that are so negative that I'd get banned from this site. Let it suffice to say: I hate both characters with a passion.

[Jaros]

Speaking of Elan though...I really hate how Haley still seems to think of Elan is an idiotic simpleton. Not because he isn't, of course he is, we all know that...but if she's not willing to respect her man as the pinnacle of manhood and all goodness, why is she in a relationship with him? It seems disrespectful.

Are you saying that women should hail their partners as such, or just that Haley should hail Elan as such? :smallconfused:

[Paseo H]

Are you saying that women should hail their partners as such, or just that Haley should hail Elan as such? :smallconfused:

I repeat my last paragraph of the post:


Before anyone objects, let's turn it around...if a man got with a woman but commented aside to friends semi-regularly that she's a scatterbrained fool, would one not be justified in second guessing his true respect for her?

This is not a gender thing, as I clearly stated it would be just as wrong for a man to treat his partner in such a way.

My point is...why date someone if you're so ready to point out their flaws?

[Jaros]

I repeat my last paragraph of the post:



This is not a gender thing, as I clearly stated it would be just as wrong for a man to treat his partner in such a way.

My point is...why date someone if you're so ready to point out their flaws?

Dating people doesn't mean denying their flaws exist. 'Respecting him as the pinnacle of manhood and goodness' is taking it a bit too far I think.

I can't remember any real occasions of her insulting Elan to be honest, closest would be the part when he outsmarted her.

[Paseo H]

Dating people doesn't mean denying their flaws exist. 'Respecting him as the pinnacle of manhood and goodness' is taking it a bit too far I think.

I can't remember any real occasions of her insulting Elan to be honest, closest would be the part when he outsmarted her.

There's a huge difference between "not pointing out their flaws" and "denying their flaws exist."

As for my hyperbole being too far, well I suppose if they aren't officially a couple, if they're only 'friends,' you might be right.

And your example, well, really the only mitigating factor to this whole mess is that Elan really is too stupid to know when he is being insulted.

[martinkou]

Dating people doesn't mean denying their flaws exist. 'Respecting him as the pinnacle of manhood and goodness' is taking it a bit too far I think.

I can't remember any real occasions of her insulting Elan to be honest, closest would be the part when he outsmarted her.

Agreed.

And to me, Celia feels like a girlfriend you'd actually meet in real life rather than love stories - works a normal job, sort of boring, sort of risk averse, sort of demanding - but you ended up putting up with her anyways.

[ThatQuietGuy]

Therkla wasn't exactly explicit about her checkered past with Elan, and Elan went to great lengths never to see anything bad about Therkla. So I don't see any reason why that storyline should have taught Elan that lesson.

As you may recall, Elan tried rather hard to ignore his father's evil (ie, he must have accidentally hired an evil caterer). Despite the warnings of someone whose opinion he trusts, he refused to think of his father as evil until Tarquin blatantly pointed it out to him. So not much difference there between how he treated Therkla and how he treated Tarquin at first.

The difference comes in the different "villains" excuses. Therkla said she'd done what she'd done for the sake of the only person she loved, the one person in her life who had ever shown her any kind of affection. Elan told her should could be good and she seriously thought about it, even acted on it.

Tarquin is evil because it gives him what he wants and he enjoys it. When questioned he basically responds that evil is just a label. Sure, Elan is a little quick to challenge him to a dual, but Tarquin continues to revel in being a villain that will eventually be deposed by his heroic son. When they meet up again, I fully expect for him to find a way to cut off Elan's hand.




There's a huge difference between "not pointing out their flaws" and "denying their flaws exist."

It's not exactly like she walks around saying, "Man, my boyfriend is so dumb!" She acknowledges it when it is relevant to do so. Sure, perhaps it was a bit insensitive for her to be so flabergasted at being outdone by him in what is obviously one of his weak points, but it was hilarious... and this is a comic... Besides, I don't know anyone who hasn't been insensitive to their significant other at one point or another, especially drunk. Just because it's a fantasy story doesn't mean their relationship should be perfect.


I'm trying to come up with a character I don't like. All of the ones people seem to hate on are some of my favorites. Celia's pacifism amuses me because, as a pacifist, I have basically those exact same conversations in real life. Eugene reminds me too much of my own father to be all that bothered by him. I don't see as much of the flatness in Durkon that everyone else does. V's wit and ego were amusing, though it got strained a bit there for a while while it wasn't trancing, and now I find the current character development to be amongst the best written into the story so far. Same goes for Belkar actually, in that he was a comedic character before and now he's developing in exciting ways.

So... Blackwing. Sure, he's a necessary part of V's transformation, but I'm just not feeling the external conscience thing. I don't hate him, but I suppose I like him the least of any character worth mentioning.

[LadyEowyn]

Belkar. I just don't find utterly sociopathic characters all that interesting or funny. He's basically the same as Xykon in terms of outlook ("other people are here for my amusement, and harming them amuses me"), just with a lot less power and working for the good guys.

But then, I get the sense that he, Miko and Celia existed largely to be deconstructions of ways people misunderstand or mis-play character alignments: Miko was Lawful Stupid, Celia was Stupid Good, Belkar was (pre-vision-quest) Stupid Evil, and Girard, so far, is looking like Chaotic Stupid.

The other really annoying thing about Belkar is that people have misunderstood his moving from Stupid Chaotic Evil to just plain Chaotic Evil as a transition away from evil, when in fact he hasn't gotten any less evil - he's just employing his evil in ways that are less counterproductive to his teammates than, say, killing the Oracle was.

[willpell]

Belkar. I just don't find utterly sociopathic characters all that interesting or funny. He's basically the same as Xykon in terms of outlook ("other people are here for my amusement, and harming them amuses me"), just with a lot less power and working for the good guys.

I don't agree at all. While Belkar isn't one of my favorite characters, I think he's a lot more deep than you give him credit for. He dislikes people because they've given him tremendous reason to; he's alluded to his rather vicious upbringing several times, and while such stories should be taken with a grain of salt, I think it's reasonable to assume there's some truth to them. He doesn't like people because very few people have ever given him the slightest reason to like them; he returns hate for hate, spite for judgment, cruelty for a perception that life is inherently cruel, a rigged game in which you can only win by cheating. Belkar loves good food, casual sex, and the power trip of ending the lives of anyone he doesn't like marginally more than he dislikes them, all because those things make him feel good, and he's seen no reason to believe there's any higher purpose to life than grabbing whatever pleasure you can in this screwy and dangerous world, before your time is up (which, let's remember, Belkar's soon will be, for some or another value of "soon"). Also there's the fact that he likes semi-domestic animals (Mr. Scruffy of course, but there was also his fantasy of a riding dog in Book 2, which he wanted clearly mostly because it was badass but I think there could have been some Scruffy-style bonding with the thing if he'd gotten what he was expecting, instead of the dachshund), probably because they aren't people and aren't full of the material-component-for-a-Delayed-Blast-Firebull that many people, particularly those he's used to dealing with, often are.

XYkon on the other hand was never anything more than a self-centered antisocial jerk; he didn't hate other people, because that would require him to care and he couldn't be bothered when it was just easier to silence them and turn them into zombies. And any fun-loving tendencies he once possessed got snuffed out when he turned into a lich and could no longer enjoy the small pleasures of life; as Redcloak quite aptly observes, "The only thing he really enjoys anymore is watching people die". Xykon is an empty, twisted shell of a person that nobody is meant to sympathize; that's what makes him great as a villain. Belkar needs to be a bit more likeable on at least a "god I'm sick of putting up with those losers at my job / at my school / in Washington / etc., wish I could just stab them all like Belkar would" level.

AFAICR, Belkar has never killed somebody who didn't either give him trouble first (attacking him, even if they meant it as a joke, or were doing their jobs, or hadn't actually attacked yet but were in such a position that they probably were going to), or in a few cases simply have something he wanted (XP, a chocolate bar, etc). Xykon actively prefers to kill those who have done nothing to deserve it, because they squeal more pitifully than the less innocent. It's a pretty noticeable difference. They may both be psychotic and sadistic, but Belkar has some depth and complexity to his character, while Xykon is intentionally designed to be as shallow as possible.

[LadyEowyn]

AFAICR, Belkar has never killed somebody who didn't either give him trouble first (attacking him, even if they meant it as a joke, or were doing their jobs, or hadn't actually attacked yet but were in such a position that they probably were going to), or in a few cases simply have something he wanted (XP, a chocolate bar, etc).

Killing someone innocent because they have a cart or a chocolate bar you want is functionally no different from killing someone for the fun of it. Ditto for killing people for annoying you, which he has no problem doing (e.g., the Oracle). And trying to kill Elan for XP.

People are unpleasant to him because he's a vicious little bugger with no consideration for anybody else, not the other way around. He kept on being his usual unpleasant self to the merchant who gave him the spice after the slaving raid. (And if you'll remember that bit with the slavers, Belkar formerly kidnapped people and sold them as slaves - in large numbers - to the insect.) There's no indication that his stories about his childhood are anything more than jokes or sarcasm.

It's not as if he's nice to people who do treat him decently (or neutrally). Elan's never been mean to him, but he still tried to kill Elan for XP. He was still an jerk to the woman he slept with in Greysky City. Roy kept him free and unexecuted after capture by the Sapphire Guard, and his reaction to Roy's sister being kidnapped was "Is she a hottie?" He stole bread from all the other prisoners in Bloodstone Prison just because he could.

He's blatantly evil, and he's blatantly a jerk, and I just don't find that character type interesting.

[Paseo H]

Yeah, Belkar's still a sociopath, it's just that dream Shojo showed him the value of being a high functioning one instead of a mid to low functioning one.

[J's]

Speaking of Elan though...I really hate how Haley still seems to think of Elan is an idiotic simpleton. Not because he isn't, of course he is, we all know that...but if she's not willing to respect her man as the pinnacle of manhood and all goodness, why is she in a relationship with him? It seems disrespectful.

Before anyone objects, let's turn it around...if a man got with a woman but commented aside to friends semi-regularly that she's a scatterbrained fool, would one not be justified in second guessing his true respect for her?

Depends, is it something that he brings up? Does he ever say good things about this girl?

I don't recall Haley ever instigating a mockery of Elan, then saying but he is good in bed so excuse me while I enjoy the evening. Being able to see where your partners faults are is a good thing, especially if you can then help mediate their faults- that is what good partners do. The only times I remember Haley talking behind Elan's back she was defending him despite his faults.



As for Eugene - He holds anything that is not a Wizard in contempt, so a son who chooses to be a fighter (we see Roy holding a sword at a very young age) early in life would get the ridicule of his father from an early age, hell if Roy had been a sorcerer he likely would have gotten the ridicule of his father even as a magic user. The fact that Roy inherited Eugene's bullhead 'I'm right, you're wrong' attitude that allowed him not to care much about his fathers opinion about his career choice says nothing in favor of Eugene (or Roy or Horace).

[Hallavast]

Speaking of Elan though...I really hate how Haley still seems to think of Elan is an idiotic simpleton. Not because he isn't, of course he is, we all know that...but if she's not willing to respect her man as the pinnacle of manhood and all goodness, why is she in a relationship with him? It seems disrespectful.

Before anyone objects, let's turn it around...if a man got with a woman but commented aside to friends semi-regularly that she's a scatterbrained fool, would one not be justified in second guessing his true respect for her?

She's in a relationship with him for the same reason most people get involved romantically: she's enamored with his strengths. It's obvious that his idiocy is not a deal-breaker. That said, why should she go out of her way to put him on a pedestal (especially when by doing so she would definitely lose respect from many people). If you have a comfortable, honest relationship that you expect to last, you should be open about what kind of person your S.O. is. Both to each other and to other people. It does no good to either tell yourself a lie over and over or convince yourself that your partner is perfect, except on a very superficial level. If you truly love someone the way they are, then acting as if they are different shouldn't be necessary.

[t209]

V. I have mixed feeling for him (hated her/him for killing draketooths but feel sad for hir regret for using the spell). But he is at my least favorite character in my list.

[rewinn]

Haerta, hands-down.

Using Familicide was very bad, but how bad is actually developing it?

I had a fleeting moment of sympathy for Xykon at the beginning of his origin story, and Tsukiko is just looking for love in all the wrong places, and willing to kill anyone in the way.

But Haerta? she's not even funny!

[MyNameIsSecret]

Who is your LEAST favorite character?

Kubota. Gah.

I just don't like him.

[Euodiachloris]

There are two that I absolutely despise.

Miko. I can't express how much I hated Miko.

But as bad as Miko was, there is one character who, for me, actually ranks as one of the worst characters in any media. Celia. Other than the young girl from the Liveship Traders trilogy, Celia is the character that I would take the most satisfaction in seeing die. I don't want to express vulgarity, but Celia deserves everything evil that ever comes her way for the way that she treated Haley and the rest of the OotS.

Ugh. Just talking about Miko and Celia makes me want to type out things that are so negative that I'd get banned from this site. Let it suffice to say: I hate both characters with a passion.

Malta Vestrit? Hmmmm: there's a thought. Her before some character development in the same room as Celia talking clothes...? <shudders> Add Chrystal, and my "worst girly trio ever" shudders would be complete.

[t209]

Kubota. Gah.

I just don't like him.

I agree, He murder his own people (especially ship loads of them) to gain power.

[Hallavast]

Haerta, hands-down.

Using Familicide was very bad, but how bad is actually developing it?

I had a fleeting moment of sympathy for Xykon at the beginning of his origin story, and Tsukiko is just looking for love in all the wrong places, and willing to kill anyone in the way.

But Haerta? she's not even funny!

*Shrug*. I dunno. Was developing a nuclear bomb worse than actually dropping it? Maybe she developed it to SAVE THE WORLD!? Perhaps it is part of some long forgotten M-A-D scheme. Or perhaps it was created to stave off some kind of alien invasion where-in the world was attacked by a race of mitosis-cloned aliens. Perhaps it was in self defense against fresh fruit. Can we really judge her if we don't know? :smalleek:

Edit: I like to envision the would-be alien invaders as Hippopotamusfolk.

[zimmerwald1915]

*Shrug*. I dunno. Was developing a nuclear bomb worse than actually dropping it?
Leo Szilard thought so.

[Paseo H]

She's in a relationship with him for the same reason most people get involved romantically: she's enamored with his strengths. It's obvious that his idiocy is not a deal-breaker. That said, why should she go out of her way to put him on a pedestal (especially when by doing so she would definitely lose respect from many people). If you have a comfortable, honest relationship that you expect to last, you should be open about what kind of person your S.O. is. Both to each other and to other people. It does no good to either tell yourself a lie over and over or convince yourself that your partner is perfect, except on a very superficial level. If you truly love someone the way they are, then acting as if they are different shouldn't be necessary.

My point is not that Haley should think Elan is perfect, my point is that Haley shouldn't be with Elan if she still thinks of him as a stupid simpleton (which admittedly he is). She should wait until the perfect man does come along. That is what I meant by the "pedestalizing" talk.

Also, on the subject of Haerta, we know that she's no "whiny evil for a good cause" type, she is fairly clearly established as a heartless sociopath "who ended lives without a thought."

[oppyu]

Haley shouldn't be with the man she loves because he's stupid, and she as a human being with basic senses can see that?

[Hallavast]

My point is not that Haley should think Elan is perfect, my point is that Haley shouldn't be with Elan if she still thinks of him as a stupid simpleton (which admittedly he is). She should wait until the perfect man does come along. That is what I meant by the "pedestalizing" talk.
Feh. That's all pretty subjective. Maybe she just doesn't follow that ethos. Nobody is perfect. Just because Haley is a character in a fantasy comic strip doesn't mean she has to live in a fantasy land... Or alternatively, maybe her perfect man IS an idiot.



Also, on the subject of Haerta, we know that she's no "whiny evil for a good cause" type, she is fairly clearly established as a heartless sociopath "who ended lives without a thought."
1) I think we have a fairly decent idea of who she is, yes. But judging whether each action committed by an evil person is evil requires questioning beyond this.
2) Had it occurred to you that she may have been a heartless sociopath "who ended lives without a thought" AND who wanted to save the world from marauding Hippo people?

[Paseo H]

Feh. That's all pretty subjective. Maybe she just doesn't follow that ethos. Nobody is perfect. Just because Haley is a character in a fantasy comic strip doesn't mean she has to live in a fantasy land... Or alternatively, maybe her perfect man IS an idiot.

1. I know that she and others aren't perfect, that's the whole point of storytelling, if everyone did the right thing it'd be boring. The point of my point is that people are treating it like a wonderful relationship, and so just as I would be terrible for telling others (even friends) what a scatterbrained idiot my wife/lover is, well.



2) I think we have a fairly decent idea of who she is, yes. But judging whether each action committed by an evil person is evil requires questioning beyond this.
2) Had it occurred to you that she may have been a heartless sociopath "who ended lives without a thought" AND who wanted to save the world from marauding Hippo people?

Well yes, of course, I too have the trouble of making my Complete Monsters too helpful and just so happening to have interests coinciding with the heroes.

But you have to remember, there are still people who think Belkar is Chaotic Neutral, so I see value in overstating the wickedness of the wicked, in this case, of a woman whose first line seems to be "Kill anyone who has ever slighted you."

[Andrew Stevens]

A great many of us (probably most people on this forum) live in a world which lionizes intellect out of all proportion to its actual usefulness. Intellect isn't virtue - the fact that a person isn't very bright, or even is quite scatterbrained, tells us nothing about how wise, or kind, or good that person is, but in our modern world we tend to equate "not very bright" with "completely worthless" and I think this is why you think Haley is being disrespectful. Would you think Haley was being disrespectful if, instead of being simpleminded, Elan was quite clumsy or quite weak and Haley wasn't shy about acknowledging it? I'm fairly clumsy and I don't think it's disrespectful for my wife to say so.

The OotS world is not our world and Haley probably does not have all the cultural connotations around intelligence and its value that (unfortunately, IMO) people living in our society have. Intelligence is just one of the six stats and it is by no means obvious that it's any more important than the other five. Elan has an extraordinary charisma and is one of the most virtuous people in the comic. Haley can acknowledge his limitations in intelligence while still loving him. I haven't noticed her being abusive to him about it.

[rgrekejin]

The OotS world is not our world and Haley probably does not have all the cultural connotations around intelligence and its value that (unfortunately, IMO) people living in our society have. Intelligence is just one of the six stats and it is by no means obvious that it's any more important than the other five. Elan has an extraordinary charisma and is one of the most virtuous people in the comic. Haley can acknowledge his limitations in intelligence while still loving him. I haven't noticed her being abusive to him about it.

Gold Star, sir.

[ti'esar]

I don't want to get too drawn into this 'discussion', especially since a more detailed response would take the thread into forum-forbidden territory, but I have to seriously question your assumption that modern society "lionizes intellect out of all proportion to its actual usefulness". It's entirely possible to disagree with Paseo H's argument without attacking the value of intelligence.

[skaddix]

*Shrug*. I dunno. Was developing a nuclear bomb worse than actually dropping it? Maybe she developed it to SAVE THE WORLD!? Perhaps it is part of some long forgotten M-A-D scheme. Or perhaps it was created to stave off some kind of alien invasion where-in the world was attacked by a race of mitosis-cloned aliens. Perhaps it was in self defense against fresh fruit. Can we really judge her if we don't know? :smalleek:

Edit: I like to envision the would-be alien invaders as Hippopotamusfolk.

Yes because no one with the intelligence to build a nuke could possibly think it was not going to get used.

[Squieonat]

I don't think Kubota counts, since as other people have said, we're SUPPOSED to hate him. I didn't really "hate" Miko, though. I sort of felt bad for her, beginning a good amount of time before she died.

Nale. He's just... stupid. In many ways. I don't find him interesting, and quite frankly, I get annoyed whenever the comic deviates from whatever was going on, and begins to focus on him. I find him to be a crappy villain, and a dull character.

Eugene, because... well... everything about his personality, I suppose.

Celia would rather watch all of her friends and loved ones die, than lift one finger to defend them. Just... not cool, Celia. Not cool. I hope something terrible happens to you.

[zimmerwald1915]

Celia would rather watch all of her friends and loved ones die, than lift one finger to defend them. Just... not cool, Celia. Not cool. I hope something terrible happens to you.
That's a bit much, isn't it? Celia puts herself at risk bluffing past the hobgoblins, puts herself at risk trying in vain to get through to golem-Roy, and puts herself at risk again flying unconscious Haley out of Bozzok's and Crystal's reach. She has proven herself willing to defend her friends and loved ones. What she won't normally do is try to harm those who are trying to harm her friends and loved ones. A subtle but important distinction.

[Porthos]

Paseo H, I know from prior debates just how much you think that the Haley-Elan relationship is WRONGWRONGWRONG, but I still say you are missing the boat on why Haley is with Elan. :smallsmile:

Haley is with Elan for one* main reason: Not only does being around him makes her realize that she can be a better person, but being with Elan makes Haley a better person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html). He is the constant reminder that An Innocent Nature can get one through life. That giving one's self to others for noble causes, isn't in fact a thing only for kids (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SillyRabbitIdealismIsForKids). He is a living, breathing, walking reminder that someone can in fact be open and carefree and not be filled with self-doubt and secretive paranoia.

* (OK, "one main reason" is stretching it hugely. But I think this the cornerstone of her feelings for him. The point which all other points rely on, if you will)

He may not be "Mr. Perfect", but he's pretty much "Mr. What Haley Needs From a Partner".

One of the other things I think you might be discounting is that she has an acerbic and snarky personality. Any relationship she is in, is going to be one where she snarks and makes 'jokes' about her SO. Even if she ran into "Mr. Perfect" I'd bet you a decent amount of gps that she'd find something to snark about. That's just who she is.

The fact that she found someone who either takes her snarkiness in stride or doesn't care about it kinda is a point in Elan's favor, dontchathink? :smallsmile:

As for what Elan gets out of this relationship? Well the comic hasn't explored that quite as much. I suspect mostly because Elan hasn't been angsting about such things, and thus it makes poor fodder for storytelling. But it is obvious, to me at least, that Haley triggers Elan's Papa Bear gene. He views himself as her protector, her knight in shining armor if you will. He also, I think on some basic level, trusts her enough to open up about his own dark secrets (well, dark for him :smallwink:). He's willing to forgo Bardic Traditions to keep the relationship going.

He also probably loves the excitement and thrill that Haley's life brings to the table. Let's face it, time spent with her isn't going to be boring. :smalltongue:

But if I really stop to think about it, I think one of the main reasons Elan wants to be with Haley is that Haley accepts Elan just the way he is. She's not trying to change him or make him something he isn't. That might not seem like a lot to some people. But for people who have been spurned and dumped and thrown away like so much loose change all their lives, someone who is willing to stick by him (no pun intended) is Pretty Darn Important.

After all, just how many people have thrown away Elan during the years? Tarquin*. Sir Francois. All the people he worked for before Sir Francois. Even Roy, for a time.

* Whether this is true or not is irrelevant, as this is how Elan views what happened (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html).

And yet along comes someone who isn't going to dump him because of his childlike nature. Along comes someone who is, I think "willing to put up with his faults" is a bit strong so instead I will say "accepts his faults" and not abandon him. Along comes someone who does indeed want to actually be with him. And, yes, respects his moral character (if not his intellect).

Put it that way, why wouldn't Elan want to be with Haley?

So either of them might not be your definition of a perfect spouse that you would want to have. But they do seem pretty darn good for each other, if you ask me. :smallwink:

[SadisticFishing]

I don't think Kubota counts, since as other people have said, we're SUPPOSED to hate him. I didn't really "hate" Miko, though. I sort of felt bad for her, beginning a good amount of time before she died.

Nale. He's just... stupid. In many ways. I don't find him interesting, and quite frankly, I get annoyed whenever the comic deviates from whatever was going on, and begins to focus on him. I find him to be a crappy villain, and a dull character.

Eugene, because... well... everything about his personality, I suppose.

Celia would rather watch all of her friends and loved ones die, than lift one finger to defend them. Just... not cool, Celia. Not cool. I hope something terrible happens to you.

No idea who you are, but I rarely agree with posts as much as this one.

I rate Eugene a bit higher than everyone else here, but... Yeah.

[Andrew Stevens]

I don't want to get too drawn into this 'discussion', especially since a more detailed response would take the thread into forum-forbidden territory, but I have to seriously question your assumption that modern society "lionizes intellect out of all proportion to its actual usefulness". It's entirely possible to disagree with Paseo H's argument without attacking the value of intelligence.

I don't want to get into the discussion too much either, other than to point out the cultural assumptions which I think underlie the argument and to express my disagreement with those assumptions. However, I wouldn't say that I am attacking the value of intelligence. Intelligence is very useful. What I deny is that it is the sum total of a person's value or that a person who has more of it than another person is better in any meaningful way. I am calling for a great deal more moderation, not a complete reversal, of the modern cultural assumptions about intelligence. It is not obvious to me why we should prize intelligence above things like athletic skill or good looks, which are commonly denigrated as being of trivial importance. But these things also are very useful and make one's life easier.

By the by, I hope it's clear that I mean no disrespect to Paseo H and that I believe his/her argument could be defended without any of these cultural assumptions so I'm not claiming that they definitely underlie the argument. I just find that it's a common unexamined assumption.

[Nohar]

Hmmm... Well, in the Order of the Stick itself, my least favorite character is Durkon. Not that he's a bad character, but I just see him as too "flat", and he probably had less moments to shine during the comic than the others.
On the other hand, I think I recall reading that his arc is coming soon, so let's see what the Giant has for us :)

[Leolo]

The one point i don't like about Elan is that he does not use his bardic abilities. He is a joke about "bards are useless", but until now there has not been a payoff.

And the only thing that has made him mediocre competent in the comic is a homebrewed prestige class. It just seems not right. He is a mid-/high level full caster, and bards are a solid tier 3 class. Elan should be usefull.

I do think that the giant wants to make character development for Elan, and slowly making him realize that he can be usefull. And it would be cool if he really fights tarquin in the end, and is the hero of the land.

But he should at least use some of his abilities.

[Squieonat]

That's a bit much, isn't it? Celia puts herself at risk bluffing past the hobgoblins, puts herself at risk trying in vain to get through to golem-Roy, and puts herself at risk again flying unconscious Haley out of Bozzok's and Crystal's reach. She has proven herself willing to defend her friends and loved ones. What she won't normally do is try to harm those who are trying to harm her friends and loved ones. A subtle but important distinction.

Oh, I was just exaggerating a bit. It just seems to me that if it came down to a situation wherein she'd need to kill somebody to save a friend, she'd let the friend die. We haven't seen that EXACT situation yet, but it's been close.



No idea who you are, but I rarely agree with posts as much as this one.

I rate Eugene a bit higher than everyone else here, but... Yeah.

Why, thank you! I don't post here very often -- I'm more of a lurker.

[hawkofthenorth]

Oh, I was just exaggerating a bit. It just seems to me that if it came down to a situation wherein she'd need to kill somebody to save a friend, she'd let the friend die. We haven't seen that EXACT situation yet, but it's been close.


Well, I don't think that's strictly fair, saying she'd 'let' her friend die. From what we've seen, I think she'd do everything in her power to prevent it - short of compromising her own morality for it. I'm not going to say she's strictly right for that, but I have trouble faulting her for it. I honestly wouldn't be entirely surprised if she sacrificed her own life in the hopes it'd save the friend's, even. Jump right in and take that blow for them. She may never kill a soul for any reason, but I don't see any evidence for - and some evidence against - the idea that means she wouldn't do anything, anything else.

[Paseo H]

Well, at Porthos and the others who addressed my statements, all my prior hyperbole aside, I guess it's just that I find Haley's comments about Elan grating at times, i.e. the whole "Elan outsmarted me, I need a drink" thing, among other lesser comments.

At least, I know that I would be rightly called a jerk if I ever said such a thing about that or some other shortcoming of my wife or lover, and so I would not accept it from the same.

[ManuelSacha]

Guys, (flame) threads like these tend to evolve into something nasty.
I hope it doesn't happen this time.

Anyway... I had to think really hard to find a character I dislike, since I couldn't come up with anything.

And I found two.
For me, Ganji and Enjor are uninteresting, unsympathetic and unworthy of all the spotlight they have received.
Belkar thinking about his cat when looking at them is sweet and moving.
The struggle of two bastard, selfish, bounty hunters who get in trouble for being in over their head (and they have only themselves to blame)... leaves me completely indifferent.

It's ok to create a character who is a bad guy.
It's great when you manage to create a bad guy that people root for (Xykon, Tarquin) or even feel sorry for (Redcloak, Belkar, Thog).
It's lame when you demand the audience to feel sorry for a bad guy that has done nothing to deserve any sympathy. And no, being stupid doesn't count.

PS: Also, obscure Star Wars references are overdone. They have been for 40 years.

[Gnome Alone]

I hated Gannji and Enor too, but it's quite a stretch to say the author demanded sympathy for them. If it seems that way it might be because of the rather oddly large amount of enthusiasm they got on the forum when they were around. It seems to me their only true sympathetic depiction was when they inspired empathy in freaking Belkar, of all people. Come to think of it, maybe them being fellow sociopaths is what engendered them emos in the ol' Death's Little Helper in the first place.

[Chobarth]

I hated Gannji and Enor too, but it's quite a stretch to say the author demanded sympathy for them. If it seems that way it might be because of the rather oddly large amount of enthusiasm they got on the forum when they were around. It seems to me their only true sympathetic depiction was when they inspired empathy in freaking Belkar, of all people. Come to think of it, maybe them being fellow sociopaths is what engendered them emos in the ol' Death's Little Helper in the first place.

The term sociopath get's thrown around a little too often. There isn't any real evidence that G & E are sociopaths. Belkar yes - scad's of it. But the reptilian neutral Bounty Hunters? Not so much. Burlew didn't demand sympathy as much as he created a situation that most people could empathize with. It's a side effect, not a primary cause, of setting up the scene to allow the strip's hairy-footed serial killer (technically every one of the OOTs is a serial killer - that's what D&D largely devolves into) a brief glimpse into the internal conflict that emotional attachment can cause.

I don't care how much more of Enor / Ganji we eventually see (although I hope we see some... maybe they can be transporting the 5K character to a gallow's date) but I don't think we'll see them on a wanton killing spree unless they are defending themselves. By comparison, Belkar is capable of a wanton killing spree in any situation that he thinks he can get away with it, and he plays fast and loose with the concept of 'getting away with it'...

[Kish]

The most annoying thing about Gannji and Enor was the weird way some posters on this forum decided they were probably Good. And treated Gannji's "I'm not going to tarnish our fine profession of beating people unconscious and transporting them across international borders with...with petty fraud!" as a declaration of being totally unwilling to harm an innocent.

As far as the characters themselves go, they were there. Not at all sympathetic, not annoying in and of themselves, they served their story role.

[Gnome Alone]

so·ci·o·path
noun /ˈsōsēōˌpaTH/ 
sociopaths, plural

A person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.


The term sociopath get's thrown around a little too often. There isn't any real evidence that G & E are sociopaths.


"[...]our fine profession of beating people unconscious and transporting them across international borders"


maybe they can be transporting the 5K character to a gallow's date

Done.

[rbetieh]

so·ci·o·path
noun /ˈsōsēōˌpaTH/ 
sociopaths, plural

A person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.


Done.

Semantics hardly ever end an argument here. Neither of these characters are sociopaths, we saw that in the arena. What they are is Bounty hunters. I actaully like these two. They are running a legitimate business, mostly legitimately (can of soup stunt aside). They arent the nicest people in the world, but that comes with the territory. I think these characters are believable, unlike the implausibly silent allosaurus :smallbiggrin:.

[Mr. Pants]

It's hard to say really, I like all the characters...

If I had to take a pick though, it'd probably be Jirix...not like I hate him, he just doesn't seem a particularly interesting character...well aside from his many deaths and the fact that he's the minister of Gobbotopia nowadays of course...