Soooo...puzzles?

[ScrambledBrains]

So, in the campaign I'm DMing, I need some ideas for intriguing puzzles to use for my players...some ways to test their minds and such rather than their builds. :smallamused:

Characters are:

Level 3 Warlock//Fighter
Level 4 Gunslinger//Alchemist
Level 4 Druid(Player in question chose to not gestalt.)
Level 4 Rogue//Priest

Thanks in advance Playground. :smallsmile:

[Yuki Akuma]

I would like to advise against making puzzles and forcing the players to solve them without letting the Alchemist with 7 ranks in Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering), say, from being able to roll to work out how the massive contraption functions.

People put high scores in Intelligence and knowledge skills because they want to play smart characters. They themselves might not be as smart as their characters, in which case they should get to roll to see if their character knows something they don't. :smalltongue:

[ScrambledBrains]

I would like to advise against making puzzles and forcing the players to solve them without letting the Alchemist with 7 ranks in Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering), say, from being able to roll to work out how the massive contraption functions.

People put high scores in Intelligence and knowledge skills because they want to play smart characters. They themselves might not be as smart as their characters, in which case they should get to roll to see if their character knows something they don't. :smalltongue:

Noted. That was my plan to begin with. I just need ideas...I have a few, but they're cribbed from the Uncharted games. :smallbiggrin:

[Mystify]

I would like to advise against making puzzles and forcing the players to solve them without letting the Alchemist with 7 ranks in Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering), say, from being able to roll to work out how the massive contraption functions.

People put high scores in Intelligence and knowledge skills because they want to play smart characters. They themselves might not be as smart as their characters, in which case they should get to roll to see if their character knows something they don't. :smalltongue:

Actually, just the other day the DM threw a puzzle at us. Knowledge checks gave us useful hints, but we had to actually put it all together. It worked well. For instance, we had a word phrase on 3 lines. Somebodies knowledge check told us about a type of phrasing where the phrase appears to be a single statement, but is really 2 unrelated statements.
For your example of the alchemist with 7 ranks in engineering, he might be able to decude that the device want balanced weights placed on platforms. It doesn't solve the puzle, but provides information that makes it easier.

[Yuki Akuma]

Actually, just the other day the DM threw a puzzle at us. Knowledge checks gave us useful hints, but we had to actually put it all together. It worked well. For instance, we had a word phrase on 3 lines. Somebodies knowledge check told us about a type of phrasing where the phrase appears to be a single statement, but is really 2 unrelated statements.
For your example of the alchemist with 7 ranks in engineering, he might be able to decude that the device want balanced weights placed on platforms. It doesn't solve the puzle, but provides information that makes it easier.

And that sort of thing is fine. It's when DMs don't allow you to get hints when you're playing an Int 30 Wizard that I have a problem.

As for puzzle ideas... I suggest using physical props. Perhaps make some sort of colour pattern-based lock mechanism, and put a picture of the mechanism on the table with coloured beads and get them to work it out. If they make appropriate skill checks, you could place some of the beads for them, or something.

Another idea could involve a sort of battle-puzzle. Say, they have to fight enemies in a room with moving platforms, so they must work out how to manipulate the platforms to get to the enemies. Or perhaps they have to defeat three golems in a specific order based on a riddle.

Or both!

Or, if you want to go with a sort of destiny thing, where these four were always meant to come to this place, you might have a puzzle where each party member needs to stand on a certain platform to do... something.

[ScrambledBrains]

And that sort of thing is fine. It's when DMs don't allow you to get hints when you're playing an Int 30 Wizard that I have a problem.

As for puzzle ideas... I suggest using physical props. Perhaps make some sort of colour pattern-based lock mechanism, and put a picture of the mechanism on the table with coloured beads and get them to work it out. If they make appropriate skill checks, you could place some of the beads for them, or something.

Another idea could involve a sort of battle-puzzle. Say, they have to fight enemies in a room with moving platforms, so they must work out how to manipulate the platforms to get to the enemies. Or perhaps they have to defeat three golems in a specific order based on a riddle.

Or both!

Or, if you want to go with a sort of destiny thing, where these four were always meant to come to this place, you might have a puzzle where each party member needs to stand on a certain platform to do... something.

Sweet ideas...thanks!

[Mandrake]

If you're interested in some more ... concrete ideas (no offense for previous most useful and above all correct comments) I can offer a puzzle type that I used. It's about them opening a magic door to ancient dwarven pathways through a mountain.

Basically, there's a door with sockets and flying runes around it. Sockets are spreading in four directions, three in each group, for a total of 12 sockets. There's an exact same amount of flying runes. (Fluff it out - blue sockets, phasing red runes etc.) To open the door, you need to put the right rune in the right socket. Every group of sockets is labeled with another rune, this one carved into the stone door. Every rune has a meaning (related to the campaing and world history). Skill checks let them know what a specific rune represents, but nothing else - they have to figure that one out for themselves, reasoning what should be where. Some of the runes they might have even seen before, if you like. If they misplace a rune - damage is done, and the rune continues to fly around.
For example (a lame one), there's a symbol carved in the door. With a successful check they know it's the holy symbol of, say, Pelor. They look at the runes and find that there is one representing the sun. They decide to put the rune in one of the sockets under Pelor. If something is unclear, ask. Hope it helps.

[daemonaetea]

I used a puzzle in a game I ran one time I quite enjoyed watching the players figure out.

There were seven orbs in this maze, each one a color from the rainbow. When touched, they began glowing. Touched again, they stopped. In the center of the maze was an ancient parchment with a bit of a legend, discussing seven legendary heroes, each of which with a color themed nickname, and some number attached. For instance, "The Scarlet Lady lead her thirty-two legions to victory". In the opening and ending of the parchment, a single number emphasized again and again, and even underlined by a previous maze goer, in whose skeletal hands they found the parchment.

They eventually realized that the colored orbs were associated with the numbers from the legend, and when a certain combination was lit up at once (based on the color/number pairs from the legend, totaling up to the underlined number) the door to the next chamber opened.

Also, for the parchment they found, I took a yellowish sheet of paper, wrote out the legend in charcoal, and then rumpled it up, before rolling it up and tying it in twine.

So a little difficult, I think they spent about ten to fifteen minutes working the whole thing out, but they seemed to enjoy it.

[SimonMoon6]

Here's the thing about puzzles. If it's a puzzle is an obstacle that the PCs can't get past without solving the puzzle, then that's unfortunate. Especially if the players have little interest in puzzles or aren't good at them. The PCs might be there for quite a long time.

Just as you wouldn't expect the fighter's player to be good at combat and know how to fight, a DM shouldn't expect a smart character's player to be smart and know how to solve puzzles (and a charismatic character's player shouldn't have to be charismatic to use his charisma skills).

So, if you MUST include puzzles, I'd say something like:

"You find a DC 25 puzzle. Everyone make an INT check."

Then, when the wizard's player succeeds, I'd say:

"Okay, you've figured out that the numbers on the wall describe a Fibonacci series (the usual one multiplied by two... that's why you didn't figure it out immediately). With that in mind, you realize that you need to press the tenth tile up from the bottom of the wall."

[Yuki Akuma]

Sure, but on the other hand, boiling puzzles entirely down to a single roll is horrifically boring.

[hymer]

SimonMoon's example is a little... off, I think. Suppose nobody makes the roll (and Int DC 25 is quite likely not to succeed for anyone in the party), you end up with them having to puzzle it out on their own. And if they do make it, you take away the satisfaction of puzzling it out. Some people actually enjoy that.
I prefer to have puzzles be optional. Either you don't have to get past it, or you can get past it by using resources. And then there's a bit of reward if you actually solve the thing, in the form of XP.

[Mystify]

Sure, but on the other hand, boiling puzzles entirely down to a single roll is horrifically boring.
Exactly this. Why bother including the puzzle if its just going to be a single check? If your players aren't interested in doing puzzles, then don't include them at all. Part of the advantage of pen and paper RPGs is that you can conform the game to your players preferences. If they don't like doing puzzles, don't include them. If they do, then its fine to have them.

[Gnaeus]

Sure, but on the other hand, boiling puzzles entirely down to a single roll is horrifically boring.

But it may or may not be more boring than the puzzle.

My DM likes math puzzles. The PCs do not. I finally put 15 ranks in Profession: Mathematician just so that when they come up I could make my dice roll and pass my hint along to the other party members before leaving the table to take a long bathroom and snack break.

Prior to this strategy, there was a puzzle we had to solve to advance, and if we didn't solve it, giant super CRed dragon was going to eat us all.
Me: "I'm willing to fight the dragon."
DM: "But it will kill you!"
Me: "I'd rather roll a new character than do the math puzzle!"
Fortunately, someone else figured it out. I was ready to roll some fort saves against massive damage.

[navar100]

There's a fountain of water and a large basin. To open a secret panel/door, the party needs to fill the basin with exactly 4 units of water. There are three pitchers, one that holds 8 units, one that holds 3 units, and one that holds 5 units.

[hymer]

You solve that one by peeing in the fountain until the thing opens. Then you stop.

[Legendairy]

I have started using puzzles recently as well, look through google found some nice chess style riddle puzzles. There is also a few books that add rom style puzzles to RPG's but i see very mixed reviews, the free one is decent enough tho. The books are the Riddle Room series from Cloud Kingdom books. Also some decent ones in various places via the google machine.

[USS Sorceror]

There's a fountain of water and a large basin. To open a secret panel/door, the party needs to fill the basin with exactly 4 units of water. There are three pitchers, one that holds 8 units, one that holds 3 units, and one that holds 5 units.

That one seems interesting and possibly very simple if you can use the pitchers to remove water from the basin.

A DM in a campaign I previously was in had a dungeon built by a mad dwarf who loved puzzles. One that I like was a highly Indiana Jones-esque puzzle: Walk across tiles in correct order. The catch is, if you step on the wrong tiles, you are the victim of a grease spell and you slide around, which will probably end with you sliding onto a tile that teleports you back to the beginning of the puzzle.

This same dungeon also had an intelligent door that could only be bypassed by impressing it with a Perform check...or breaking its logic circuits (the tactic I used).

[Unseenmal]

There's a fountain of water and a large basin. To open a secret panel/door, the party needs to fill the basin with exactly 4 units of water. There are three pitchers, one that holds 8 units, one that holds 3 units, and one that holds 5 units.

That's been way to over done so it will be easily bypassed. It takes like 5 steps.

Oh and to help out here....I stole these some forum somewhere...can't remember where:

Instant Karma Room:
Basically, anything bad you try to do to anything else, happens to you instead. Try and set the furniture on fire? Nothing happens to it, but all of a sudden your shoes are burning. Hit someone with a club? You get knocked out, they're fine. Stuff like that.

Throw in a big, mean, sleeping monster that's also affected by the room. The only way past is to not bother it (never gonna happen) or to wake it up and never attack it, let it attack you and kill itself by means of the room.

The Rocks Fall, Everyone....wait one second Trap:
DM: Rocks fall from the ceiling. Roll reflex.
Wizard: Got a 5.
Rogue: I got a 26!
DM: K, wizard, you see the rocks fade away right before they hit. You also see the rogue diving headfirst into a pool of acid.

Bob Ross's Happy Little Paintings:
A mummy's curse makes the PCs two-dimensional, forcing them to navigate the previously ignored murals on the dungeon walls from the first part of the adventure.

[Gnaeus]

The Rocks Fall, Everyone....wait one second Trap:
DM: Rocks fall from the ceiling. Roll reflex.
Wizard: Got a 5.
Rogue: I got a 26!
DM: K, wizard, you see the rocks fade away right before they hit. You also see the rogue diving headfirst into a pool of acid.

Wow. Way to turn the best class feature of a weak class into a drawback! What did the rogue class do to you that it should deserve such treatment?

[Unseenmal]

Wow. Way to turn the best class feature of a weak class into a drawback! What did the rogue class do to you that it should deserve such treatment?

This was years ago, back when 3.0 first came out. I think it was used in the 2nd or 3rd campaign we did in 3.0. You know, the days before everyone knew how to break the world with Wizards, Clerics and Druids.

It was from 1 particular player that kept making the saves to avoid everything. Normally I wouldn't care as it truly was awesome rolling and he did save the party a TPK once because of it. But week after week he kept gloating that no trap I threw at them could touch him. The words "Nanny nanny poopy" were used as a taunt to me, childish but the point was made. So....Challenge Accepted!

I proved him wrong.

[Zaranthan]

That's been way to over done so it will be easily bypassed. It takes like 5 steps.
Depends on your players. I know among mine, one would never figure it out without going to the kitchen and getting out the measuring cups, one would solve it instantly in his head and refuse to tell anybody, one would start blindly pouring water to and fro to try and brute force the puzzle, and one would try to steal one of the jugs. Fun for the whole family!


Instant Karma Room
This is freaking brilliant. Totally stealing this one. Now I need to decide whether to throw a pit fiend against a low level party or a goblin against a high level one... yeah, definitely doing both. :D


The Rocks Fall, Everyone....wait one second Trap:
Totally a **** move, but highly entertaining for all (assuming the rogue survives his swim). I have a feeling this would get the Gygax Seal of Approval.


Bob Ross's Happy Little Paintings:
Utterly hilarious. Be sure to foreshadow it by spending minutes on end describing the murals in intricate detail and then watching your players try to interact with them before they spring the trap.

[navar100]

Solution:



Three pitchers: 8 5 3

Start with filling the 8 unit pitcher

8 0 0

Pour 8 into 5

3 5 0

Pour 5 into 3

3 2 3

Pour 3 into 8

6 2 0

Pour 5 into 3

6 0 2

Pour 8 into 5

1 5 2

Pour 5 into 3

1 4 3

Pour 5 into basin

[Jack_Simth]

Sure, but on the other hand, boiling puzzles entirely down to a single roll is horrifically boring.
Try the third hour of waiting for the guy who WILL NEVER GET IT trying every answer he can possibly think of and not moving on because he expects it to be solvable. Further, it's also very boring if your players solve them instantly.

The real catch with puzzles (and riddles) in RPG's is that you have to know your players very, very well. If it's too far out of what they're expecting, they'll be stymied. If it's an easily bypassed puzzle, then styming the players is fine... if they're the type to give up and move on when a task seems hopeless. If the riddle is too easy for them, then it's no fun.

In this vein, soliciting puzzles (or riddles) from people whom you don't really know seems like a bad idea to me - the person crafting the puzzle / riddle isn't going to be familiar with the capabilities, background, and habits of your players, which is necessary for that balance between "not instantly solved" and "doesn't drag on too long" that your players will need to find it enjoyable.

Solution:



Three pitchers: 8 5 3

Start with filling the 8 unit pitcher

8 0 0

Pour 8 into 5

3 5 0

Pour 5 into 3

3 2 3

Pour 3 into 8

6 2 0

Pour 5 into 3

6 0 2

Pour 8 into 5

1 5 2

Pour 5 into 3

1 4 3

Pour 5 into basin


Really? I was thinking:

Fill 5:
0 5 0
Pour 5 into 3
0 2 3
Pour 5 into 8
2 0 3
Empty 3
2 0 0
Fill 5:
2 5 0
Pour 5 into 3
2 2 3
Pour 5 into 8
4 0 3
Pour 8 into basin.

[Randomguy]

Really? I was thinking:

Fill 5:
0 5 0
Pour 5 into 3
0 2 3
Pour 5 into 8
2 0 3
Empty 3
2 0 0
Fill 5:
2 5 0
Pour 5 into 3
2 2 3
Pour 5 into 8
4 0 3
Pour 8 into basin.

I was thinking the same thing, but pouring 5 into the basin instead of 8 during those steps, so the basin isn't filled all at once. I wonder why it didn't occur to me to use 8?

One I just thought up, losely based on one I read somewhere:

An unbalanced scale clearly connected to open an ornately decorated door. The right side has a 5 unit weight, a 15 unit weight and a 10 unit weight. The left side has a 30 unit weight, a 20 unit weight and a 5 unit weight. The trick to it is that it's not a fair scale: the left side adds 10 units (so if you take all the weights off, the left side is still 10 units heavier than the right.)

The kicker? The whole setup is a trap. Balancing the scale opens the door, and sounds a silent alarm. The door leads to a long hallway that ends in a dead end. It's nice to set up in a genre savy villains castle or lair, since anyone who knows adventurers will know they'd fall very easily for a setup like this.

Make sure to make it so they can't blink through the door by putting a mobile wall of force in it, or filling the room with anchor mist, or something. Magic tends to ruin a DM's fun.

A trick that isn't really a puzzle: Leave a completely empty room in the dungeon. No traps, no puzzles, nothing. Chances are it's the room the party will spend the most time searching.

[navar100]

A trick that isn't really a puzzle: Leave a completely empty room in the dungeon. No traps, no puzzles, nothing. Chances are it's the room the party will spend the most time searching.

That can be DM fun.

Have a corridor with statues. They truly are just normal, decorative statues. They will not animate. They point to nothing. There are no secret compartments. Other than their decorative nature their faces/bodies don't mean anything specific. They are not creatures turned to stone. Nothing in the dungeon/castle/tower refers to them in any way, except if you're feeling generous they find a receipt when the adventure is completed of the owner having paid the sculptor for a job well done of nice artwork.

Bonus: There's a fountain in the corridor too. It just flows normal, non-magical non-poisonous water. There are no hidden compartments. Nothing is under it except the solid floor of no trap door or pit.

[DaMullet]

You can always delve deep into Bioware's bag of tricks and pull out the Towers of Hanoi; between that and the 3-4-5 measuring puzzle they're in every game I've ever seen them make. Riddles are also good, if you think you can write them for your party.

[Kumori]

Solution:



Three pitchers: 8 5 3

Start with filling the 8 unit pitcher

8 0 0

Pour 8 into 5

3 5 0

Pour 5 into 3

3 2 3

Pour 3 into 8

6 2 0

Pour 5 into 3

6 0 2

Pour 8 into 5

1 5 2

Pour 5 into 3

1 4 3

Pour 5 into basin



Simpler solution:
Fill the 5 jug, use 5 jug to fill the 3 jug (2 remains in 5 jug). Store the 2 in the 8 jug. Dump the 3 jug. Repeat. You now have 4 in the 8 jug.

[SilverLeaf167]

What I would do for the basin puzzle:
Just use the 3-unit pitcher 4 times. You now have 12 units in the basin. Take water from the basin with the 8-unit pitcher, once. There are now 4 units in the basin.

I don't get why everyone used some more complicated approach. :smallwink:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You can also throw 'common sense' puzzles at them.

Case in point: the classic 'St Ives' puzzle which at first seems to involve a large quantity of computation, but in reality requires simple listening comprehension skills.

"While I was going to St Ives, I met a man with.... [bla bla bla]. Kittens, cats, sacks, and wives... how many were going to St Ives?" The answer is, of course '1', the viewpoint individual, since the others aren't going to St. Ives. But someone with less common sense will try to multiply it all out 'okay, ever wife had seven sacks, every sack had seven cats, every cat had seven kittens... so that's 7 to the 4th power...'.

As another:

"Basher the Ogre liked goin' for the knees
He'd crush a kneecap as easy as ya please
His first day out, he squished a slime
Second day out, he squished another nine
Twice that number, he squished on the walk
then brained a beholder along with a son for every stalk
When the week was over and through
How many kneecaps did Basher go through?"

The answer: None. Slimes and beholders don't have knees.

[Kumori]

What I would do for the basin puzzle:
Just use the 3-unit pitcher 4 times. You now have 12 units in the basin. Take water from the basin with the 8-unit pitcher, once. There are now 4 units in the basin.

I don't get why everyone used some more complicated approach. :smallwink:

Good maths there. Assuming the basin would hold that much (sounds like it would) it'd work better than my solution.


Case in point: the classic 'St Ives' puzzle which at first seems to involve a large quantity of computation, but in reality requires simple listening comprehension skills.

One thing that always bothered me about the St Ives riddle is that last sentence: "Kittens, cats, sacks, and wives, how many were going to St Ives?" To me, this reads as "How many kittens, cats, sacks and wives...?" giving an answer of 0 instead of 1. Anyone else ever have that thought?

[Heatwizard]

What I would do for the basin puzzle:
Just use the 3-unit pitcher 4 times. You now have 12 units in the basin. Take water from the basin with the 8-unit pitcher, once. There are now 4 units in the basin.

I don't get why everyone used some more complicated approach. :smallwink:

Four moves: dump the 5-jar in twice and pull out water with the 3-jar twice. 10 - 6 = 4.

[SilverLeaf167]

Four moves: dump the 5-jar in twice and pull out water with the 3-jar twice. 10 - 6 = 4.
Well, that's even simpler than mine. :smalltongue:

[huttj509]

One thing that always bothered me about the St Ives riddle is that last sentence: "Kittens, cats, sacks, and wives, how many were going to St Ives?" To me, this reads as "How many kittens, cats, sacks and wives...?" giving an answer of 0 instead of 1. Anyone else ever have that thought?

It also assumes you met someone going the opposite way of you, and stopped to chat about his sacks and such.

Seems more reasonable if you came upon his caravan from behind and started chatting, as you were headed the same direction and it passed the time, so he IS going to St. Ives.

I liked the kneecap one though.

[Unseenmal]

One thing that always bothered me about the St Ives riddle is that last sentence: "Kittens, cats, sacks, and wives, how many were going to St Ives?" To me, this reads as "How many kittens, cats, sacks and wives...?" giving an answer of 0 instead of 1. Anyone else ever have that thought?

No because the story starts "As I was wlkaing to St. Ives...." So 1 person is definitely going to St. Ives. To Quote Samuel L. Jackson in Die Hard:

Zeus: He said, "how many were going to St. Ives," right? The riddle begins, "As I was going to St. Ives, I met a man with seven wives!" The guy and his wives aren't going anywhere.
John McClane: What are they doing?
Zeus: Sitting in the ****ing road! Waiting on the moor! How the hell should I know?

[huttj509]

No because the story starts "As I was wlkaing to St. Ives...." So 1 person is definitely going to St. Ives. To Quote Samuel L. Jackson in Die Hard:

Zeus: He said, "how many were going to St. Ives," right? The riddle begins, "As I was going to St. Ives, I met a man with seven wives!" The guy and his wives aren't going anywhere.
John McClane: What are they doing?
Zeus: Sitting in the ****ing road! Waiting on the moor! How the hell should I know?

True, but the question implies "OF ONLY THE kits, cats, sacks, and wives, how many were going to St. Ives." So any men, for example, wouldn't count, nor would any women along who were not wives.

It could be a mob of 370 people going there, of which one is this guy with seven wives, AND HE DIDN'T EVEN BRING THEM ALONG, but the question could easily be interpreted as only asking about the kits, cats, sacks, and wives.

It's a trick question that's too vague for its own good. Once it's revealed there IS a trick, there's so many possible tricks the whole thing just collapses.


The guy is coming from St. Ives, and meets the narrator who stops to chat. This is the claimed trick.

The guy IS headed to St. Ives. I mean, as I was headed to Oregon I met a guy, he was on the plane next to me, we were going to the same place.

The guy didn't bring his wives et. al. with him, they're just chatting about families.

The question is only asking about the wives etc.

I'm sure there's more perfectly legitimate holes in it, I mean, those 4 are just taking the riddle as often stated and interpreting it differently. For example, it says "I met a man with seven wives," not "I met a man who had seven wives travelling with him."



This segues into a trick with RPG riddles. If the players come up with an unexpected legitimate solution, run with it. If they bypass the riddle? Let them. Try not to have the adventure stopped by a game of "come up with the answer the GM was thinking of."

What's the airspeed of an unladen swallow? If the players find a third, fourth, fifth option, let them take it.