Which tier is this spellcaster?

[lorddrake]

If I told you that a spellcaster with the same spell list of the wizard has to choose one school (illusion, necromancy, etc) and stick to it, but this spellcaster has two more spells per day (comparing to wizard) on every level (as soon as he/she gets it).

What tier this one would be?

And if the same spellcaster could choose one spell every odd level to add to his list (for exemple, if he could take a necromancy one on third level, a conjuration on 5th, etc).

What tier would this one be?

[hymer]

Does the class have Use Magic Device as a class ability? Can they cast from scrolls of the other schools?

[Psyren]

Depends on the school he picked. Conjuration would still be T1, while Divination and Enchantment would probably fall all the way to T4 or 5.

For the second option: the free spells from other schools, if chosen wisely, could bump the weaker ones back up to T3 effectiveness.

[Binks]

By 'stick with it' I assume you mean only use spells from that school? Well it's certainly lower tier than the wizard due to a lack of flexibility, even with the odd level mechanic. With proper school selection probably high 2, low 1. With bad selection? Tier 2-3. Someone who's more of an expert in how spread out the best spells are school-wise can probably narrow it down further but I would be surprised to see this drop below tier 2 at absolute worst.

[NeoSeraphi]

Does the class get access to universal spells? (Lack of permanency, limited wish, and wish is slightly relevant here)

To be honest, it greatly depends on the school you choose. For instance, I would say that an enchanter would be Tier 4, actually, since every single spell in the enchantment school has the [mind-affecting] descriptor, and thus the enchanter would be able to do things very well and be useful in social situations, but against any creature who is immune to mind-affecting, she'd be almost as useless as a rogue against an ooze. (At least she can still buff her allies, though not as well as a bard of the same level)

Meanwhile, conjuration would do just fine, probably still tier 2 or 3 (You didn't tell us if the caster is spontaneous or prepared, or how many spells she knows, so it's hard for me to decide here)

The abjurer would have a hard time fitting in to most games (unless it's a game full of outsiders). The diviner would be a one or two trick pony, reduced to using its scarce offensive spells known from other schools (of which it gets only 10) while in combat.

Hit Dice? BAB? Saves? Class skills? Skill points? We need a full class here if we're going to PEACH it. (You might as well just make a class and publish it in the homebrew section, you'll get a lot more answers/suggestions there)

[lorddrake]

Does the class have Use Magic Device as a class ability? Can they cast from scrolls of the other schools?

Well... I think they can. A sorcerer, for exemple, can cast a spell he does not know if he has a scroll, right?



Does the class get access to universal spells? (Lack of permanency, limited wish, and wish is slightly relevant here)

To be honest, it greatly depends on the school you choose. For instance, I would say that an enchanter would be Tier 4, actually, since every single spell in the enchantment school has the [mind-affecting] descriptor, and thus the enchanter would be able to do things very well and be useful in social situations, but against any creature who is immune to mind-affecting, she'd be almost as useless as a rogue against an ooze. (At least she can still buff her allies, though not as well as a bard of the same level)

Meanwhile, conjuration would do just fine, probably still tier 2 or 3 (You didn't tell us if the caster is spontaneous or prepared, or how many spells she knows, so it's hard for me to decide here)

The abjurer would have a hard time fitting in to most games (unless it's a game full of outsiders). The diviner would be a one or two trick pony, reduced to using its scarce offensive spells known from other schools (of which it gets only 10) while in combat.

Hit Dice? BAB? Saves? Class skills? Skill points? We need a full class here if we're going to PEACH it. (You might as well just make a class and publish it in the homebrew section, you'll get a lot more answers/suggestions there)

You can guess everything is like a wizard if not noted otherwise.

And I'm not trying to homebrew this one. I was just curious, actually.
And I don't really know what PEACH means, but I have a more-or-less idea of what it would be.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Conjuration, Transmutation, and Illusion are tier 2. Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy are tier 3 (say what you will about Enchantment, you can still use it to make people do things for you). Divination and Abjuration are tier 4 at best.

[NeoSeraphi]

Conjuration, Transmutation, and Illusion are tier 2. Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy are tier 3 (say what you will about Enchantment, you can still use it to make people do things for you). Divination and Abjuration are tier 4 at best.

I would agree with this assessment, but only if the character knows as many spells and prepares them from a spellbook as a wizard. If this is a sorcerer we're talking about, with spells known and spontaneous casting, well...that's going to weaken it substantially.

[Psyren]

Well... I think they can. A sorcerer, for exemple, can cast a spell he does not know if he has a scroll, right?

Yes, they can cast from the sor/wiz list even if they do not know the spell in question.

But that's different from UMD, which lets you cast non sor/wiz spells as well.

[hymer]

Right, lorddrake. In that case I'll say it can be tier 1 with the right job of work put into making the character. It has plenty of potential to drop well below that, though, even more than wizards, since you have more permanent choices which may be bad or even crippling.

[lorddrake]

Yes, they can cast from the sor/wiz list even if they do not know the spell in question.

But that's different from UMD, which lets you cast non sor/wiz spells as well.

No UMD for this one.

[ericgrau]

In core it would be a pain. With enough books and a lot of work and headaches the player could find enough suitable spells to fill his list without worrying too much so it'd be a power boost because of the 2 extra spells.

[demigodus]

Is it 2 more spells per day compared to a generalist wizard, or compared to the focused specialist?

Can this essentially be treated as an Extra Focused Specialist to get Focused Specialist alternative class features?

[nyarlathotep]

Considering dread necromancers are almost this for necromancy I'd say at least be necromancer wizard would be tier 3. Conjuration is tier 2 at least as is Transmutation and possibly illusion (if only for shadow evocation and conjuration).

[Psyren]

Considering dread necromancers are almost this for necromancy I'd say at least be necromancer wizard would be tier 3. Conjuration is tier 2 at least as is Transmutation and possibly illusion (if only for shadow evocation and conjuration).

Dread Necros have several key differences though. They automatically know their entire list, along with the ability to learn necromancy from outside that list. They're spontaneous also, and they get actual class features - such as rebuke, charnel touch, the familiar, and of course lichdom.

[NeoSeraphi]

Dread Necros have several key differences though. They automatically know their entire list, along with the ability to learn necromancy from outside that list. They're spontaneous also, and they get actual class features - such as rebuke, charnel touch, the familiar, and of course lichdom.

Not to mention that one of those features (charnel touch) lets them infinitely heal undead, and they also get plenty of spells that the proposed wizard does not get (such as harm, greater harm, mass harm, and the inflict wounds series).

[Flickerdart]

I would propose that said wizard-analogue should get to pick two schools, with Conjuration and Transmutation counting as both choices. That way he can avoid being worthless against immune things, but is still limited in versatility.

[Randomguy]

Dread necro's already have almost exclusively necromancy and they're tier 3, so necromancy specialist would be basically the same but with less class features, making it a very low tier 3.

Enchantment is basically a weaker beguiler (more enchantment spells known, less versatility and survivability and skill points), and beguiler is tier 3, so this would also be either at the bottom of tier 3 or high tier 4.

Warmages are tier 4 and have class features as well as a few conjuration spells and some spells wizards don't have, but I think evocation specialists can make it up to tier 3 with utility evocation spells, like wind wall, defenestrating sphere, contingency, forcecage, wall of force, sending, the list goes on.

Abjurers would probably be high tier 4, in my opinion: they've got many defences, they'd actually be able to blast a bit with explosive runes and a few other spells (like eradicate earth or deanimate construct) and they can actually dispel. Giving them some melee capabilities, like d10HD and full BAB and they'd be tier 3.

Spontaneous casting with all spells on list known like the beguiler, warmage or dread necro would bump them up substantialy.
Spontaneous casting with limited spells known would weaken them all substantialy.

[NeoSeraphi]

Enchantment is basically a weaker beguiler (more enchantment spells known, less versatility and survivability and skill points), and beguiler is tier 3, so this would also be either at the bottom of tier 3 or high tier 4.


What? No. Beguiler is way better than this. 6+Int skill points on an Int-based caster? Check. Trapfinding? Check. Auto-penetrate SR? Check. Increase the DC for a school that is primarily Save Negates? Check. Skill list that encompasses both all the major social skills and Use Magic Device? Check. Cast spontaneously from all your spells known? Check. Advanced Learning? Check.

The beguiler would own this enchanter, especially considering the beguiler's list comprises almost every core enchantment and illusion spell. He has access to an entire other school, as well as glibness, making him the ultimate face. Trapfinding, knock, and UMD make the beguiler the best skillmonkey possible. He's like a more-focused but better at his focus factotum. This enchanter wouldn't even begin to compare to that.

[Psyren]

I would propose that said wizard-analogue should get to pick two schools, with Conjuration and Transmutation counting as both choices. That way he can avoid being worthless against immune things, but is still limited in versatility.

Seconding this, it's a quick and dirty fix.

[Frosty]

What? No. Beguiler is way better than this. 6+Int skill points on an Int-based caster? Check. Trapfinding? Check. Auto-penetrate SR? Check. Increase the DC for a school that is primarily Save Negates? Check. Skill list that encompasses both all the major social skills and Use Magic Device? Check. Cast spontaneously from all your spells known? Check. Advanced Learning? Check.

The beguiler would own this enchanter, especially considering the beguiler's list comprises almost every core enchantment and illusion spell. He has access to an entire other school, as well as glibness, making him the ultimate face. Trapfinding, knock, and UMD make the beguiler the best skillmonkey possible. He's like a more-focused but better at his focus factotum. This enchanter wouldn't even begin to compare to that.I think that's what he was saying, that the Enchanter is a *weaker* version of the Beguiler.

[Voyager_I]

Perhaps give them a way to cast spells outside their specialty with dramatically increased difficulty? They could treat other spells as though they were four levels higher for the purposes of learning and memorization, but with none of the effects of being cast from a higher slot.

So, for example, a 13th level Conjurer would need to prepare Fireball in a 7th level slot, but it would still be treated as a 3rd level spell for all other purposes, such as save DCs and spell storing items. It's not really a 7th level spell; it just takes up a high slot because of how hard it is for the Wizard to cast something outside his own specialization.

We could even throw in an additional CL penalty to boot ( -4 again?), so maybe this Fireball not only comes from one of his highest slots; it also counts as though it was cast by a mere 9th level caster, reducing its damage dealt and making it more difficult to overcome resistances and the like.


This doesn't completely shut them out from important abilities, but makes it so they're not something to be used lightly, and anything above 5th level would require epic casting.

[Heliomance]

Go Killer Gnome. Laugh

Seriously, I'm playing a Gnome Illusionist at the moment. Aside from cantrips, I know precisely two non-illusion spells - Nerveskitter and Identify. I might - perhaps - pick up Celerity at some point. Other than that, I have no intention of ever learning any more non-illusion spells.

[DeAnno]

I think Transmutation, if a prepared caster or especially if a warmage caster, might actually be Tier 1. You have the Polymorph subschool, Celerity, Arcane Spellsurge (you can use this decently even prepared with various hoop jumping), numerous save or dies, numerous buffs, telekinesis for DPR (and disintegrate for utility/DPR!), a little bit of various BFC, Control Weather, and oh yeah Time Stop.

I would argue that the large breadth of spells on that list combined with the power of a choice couple (action economy breakers, polymorph spells) and the highish amount of spell slots to prepare (or Warmage cast) with make that a T1, if a rather weak one. I am less sure about Conjuration, but that probably makes it too with the Warmage model at least.

[Psyren]

Go Killer Gnome. Laugh

That's a separate problem (and yes, it is a problem) with Shadowcraft Mage. Nothing should ever make an illusion 100% real, much less more.

The second issue of course is that Shadow Evocation has no business replicating evocations with no visual component.