New Avengers Trailer (as of 3-1-12)

[Mordar]

Hi all -

I enjoyed the new Avengers trailer and am very much looking forward to the film. While I understand it is only a trailer, I do have a couple questions:

1) Why might we be seeing Cap and Iron Man (perhaps together, maybe individually) fighting Thor? Any guesses? I'm sure it will turn out to be the whole "We might be enemies, but then we fight for a bit and realize we're really friends" chestnut, probably with Cap as the peace maker...but anyone else have any other thoughts?

2) While Scarlett Johannson looks very nice, and held her own against Hammer's mooks in Iron Man, she is really out of place in the nifty "We're all ready to fight" sequence...she's tiny, and she has a tiny gun. End of the world fight...if all you've got is a standard firearm, please bring something a bit bigger than a purse-sized 9mm (or whatever that is). Even Barstow's bow looks more imposing...and after seeing Hulk, Thor and Cap, she just looks like someone's little sister. Would a big gun help? Would a different actress have a presence that didn't stick out quite so much (Jovovich or Beckinsale, for instance)? Or is it just too much to hope for anyone short of She-Hulk to match up here?

3) Doesn't Hulk look fantastic?

4) Doesn't Iron Man's flight look like it really matches the physics of the situation?

Okay, 3 & 4 aren't exactly questions so much as "let's agree on the cool"...but maybe someone has a different opinion?

- M

[kpenguin]

Three words:

Needs
More
HAWKEYE

[MammonAzrael]

First, you should link to the trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPoHPNeU9fc) in your opening post. :smallsmile:

I'm not sure why, but upon my first viewing of the trailer I felt less excited about the movie. :smallfrown: Probably a combination of missing Norton, how silly Natasha and Barton feel/look next to some of the heaviest hitters in the Marvel'verse, and the randomness of the giant mecha-snake. (and yes, I know Barton at least has been part of the Avengers for I-don't-know-how-long, but something about seeing it presented in movie form makes the absurdity of it stand out more).

Upon repeat viewings and taking things scene by scene...


Jackson still looks great as Fury. I love the eye patch.
Seeing Cap bust that punching bag nicely establishes (more than in his actually movie I feel) that he has super-human strength (even if it's still laughable pathetic next to Thor, Hulk, and even Iron Man). Makes me wonder how much they'll stress that he is in charge because of his intelligence and leadership rather than raw power.
The guy playing seems fine, if rather too buff. I prefer Norton and am sad that didn't happen. Hulk looks great, even if him catching Iron Man seems really out of character.
Thor looks like Thor. Let the beat downs commence.
Stark's newest method of suit application is nice and smooth and awesome. And naturally RDJ delivers his lines hilariously perfect. Looks like the thing in his chest may have seen another upgrade (or did it look like that at the end of IM2?).
After the punches thrown, I'm impressed we didn't see IM as a pile of scrap in that shot with Cap. I'm assuming he arrives to clear things up between the two before Thor teaches Stark some lessons.
You get a good look at Cap's newest uniform at 1:11, and I'm am not likeing it at all, too spandex-y.
Why is Loki smack-talking Fury? I guess he just enjoys rubbing salt in whatever wound he made?
At 1:19, how is Cap not obliterated by Thor? :smallconfused:
I like Loki's slick business/noble look. Curious what his plans are, perhaps invasion?
I'm not clear when Natasha is getting so much screen time. Is it just because without Janet the Avengers is just a boys club and the movie needs a token female?
Barton looks good, and it's nice that he and Natasha have at least a bit of time together, it looks like acknowledging they're both way out of their power levels.
Agreed that int he group shot, those two look odd at best, goofy and severly out of place at worst.
Final nitpick - How can any of them hear Stark's "I'm bringin' the party to you," since none of them are wearing head sets? :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

Final nitpick - How can any of them hear Stark's "I'm bringin' the party to you," since none of them are wearing head sets? :smalltongue:
[/LIST]

Narrow-band directional broadcast loudspeakers built in to the suit.

What? It's SCIENCE!!!!

[MammonAzrael]

Narrow-band directional broadcast loudspeakers built in to the suit.

What? It's SCIENCE!!!!

I'll buy that. :smallbiggrin:

[Friv]

My favorite part of the entire trailer was that when they did the long sweep over the group, the Black Widow was posing like a soldier and not like eye candy.

[Mordar]

I'm not sure why, but upon my first viewing of the trailer I felt less excited about the movie. :smallfrown: Probably a combination of missing Norton, how silly Natasha and Barton feel/look next to some of the heaviest hitters in the Marvel'verse, and the randomness of the giant mecha-snake. (and yes, I know Barton at least has been part of the Avengers for I-don't-know-how-long, but something about seeing it presented in movie form makes the absurdity of it stand out more).

No question they are the "weak sisters" in the books, but we probably shouldn't forget that Cap is supposed to be the pinnacle of normal human capability...so Hawkeye and Widow's specific training and fitness mean they aren't that far below Cap in power level (though well below in Rule of Cool).


Upon repeat viewings and taking things scene by scene...


Seeing Cap bust that punching bag nicely establishes (more than in his actually movie I feel) that he has super-human strength (even if it's still laughable pathetic next to Thor, Hulk, and even Iron Man). Makes me wonder how much they'll stress that he is in charge because of his intelligence and leadership rather than raw power.

But...he's not supposed to (despite having seen it in the Cap movie as well...tossing the Hydra guy up onto the dock from the water). I do hope they hand him the reins of leadership, but it sure looks like the most biggest name actor...er...Iron Man...has that role.



The guy playing seems fine, if rather too buff. I prefer Norton and am sad that didn't happen. Hulk looks great, even if him catching Iron Man seems really out of character.
Thor looks like Thor. Let the beat downs commence.
After the punches thrown, I'm impressed we didn't see IM as a pile of scrap in that shot with Cap. I'm assuming he arrives to clear things up between the two before Thor teaches Stark some lessons.


Well, it seems Hulk is a bit closer to Gray than Green now (as he kind of needs to be for the Avengers, and it does fit the books)...so he can express a little more intelligence. Plus, it looks cool.

I agree that Thor should be Iron Mopping...and maybe he does...but we always have to watch out for that "Most Popular Actor" issue.



You get a good look at Cap's newest uniform at 1:11, and I'm am not likeing it at all, too spandex-y.

At 1:19, how is Cap not obliterated by Thor? :smallconfused:

I do think that Cap's costume is the weakest element...by far...that I've to date, and I wish they would have done the stupid black leather thing before slapping on this moto-cross style armor with a fabric overlay. Would have rather seen some serious armor, but guess they didn't feel it necessary.

If the shield is vibranium, I guess it could (by established vibranium physics) reflect 100% of the energy from Thor's smack back at the God of Thunder...otherwise I agree...



I'm not clear when Natasha is getting so much screen time. Is it just because without Janet the Avengers is just a boys club and the movie needs a token female?

Agreed that int he group shot, those two look odd at best, goofy and severly out of place at worst.


Once again, it's "Most Popular Actor" - though the girl version this time...plus we're all basement troll fanboys that are just here to drool at her, right? So, as one who isn't such a big Scarlett fan...I do think she gets WAY too much time.

[Muz]

Once again, it's "Most Popular Actor" - though the girl version this time...plus we're all basement troll fanboys that are just here to drool at her, right? So, as one who isn't such a big Scarlett fan...I do think she gets WAY too much time.

Amount of screen-time in a trailer does not necessarily equate to the amount of screen-time in the actual movie.

Just sayin'.

[Eldan]

I still cant shake that feeling I had from the first trailer that Thor's face somehow looks different, but I can't quite nail down what it is.

Is that really really the same actor?

[IrnBruAddict]

Three words:

Needs
More
HAWKEYE

This

Still ain't sure about the new hulk, but we'll see. I'm not gonna miss this movie because I don't like 1 change they made to it.

[Mutant Sheep]

You get a good look at Cap's newest uniform at 1:11, and I'm am not likeing it at all, too spandex-y.
Why is Loki smack-talking Fury? I guess he just enjoys rubbing salt in whatever wound he made?
At 1:19, how is Cap not obliterated by Thor? :smallconfused:
I like Loki's slick business/noble look. Curious what his plans are, perhaps invasion?

Caps suit is kinda ugly. I'd prefer the montage show-man suit. :smallbiggrin: Also, magical plotanium vibranium shield>hammer of the gods. :smalltongue:

Loki definitely looks cool.:smallcool:

[Tal_Akaan]

Just putting this out there, not sure if everyone knows or not.

From what I've heard it's not Marvel that just decided to change the actor for Hulk. If memory serves Edwar Norton and Marvel had a difference of opinions about how the final version of The Hulk shoul've been cut together and Marvels opinion won.

Nortos had cut the movie in a wat that really told the story of the Hulk and Marvel cut together an action movie (I really liked The Hulk these are not my opinions just what I've heard).

Anyway Edward Norton said he wouldn't play the Hulk again, so Marvel was forced to recast.

Additionally from what I've heard when Mark Ruffalo (The Hulk) was approached about the role he sought out Nortons ok before accepting the role.

Just a little background info I thought prople would enjoy.

[Mordar]

Amount of screen-time in a trailer does not necessarily equate to the amount of screen-time in the actual movie.

Just sayin'.

Absolutely true, and frankly I expect to see probably the least of Widow...but I'd wager an arc reactor *and* vibranium shield that Iron Man will have the most screen time of any of the heroes...and likely by a signficant margin. Of course, I won't wager a mythical hammer constructed from Uru...just cause. :smallsmile:

[Axolotl]

Absolutely true, and frankly I expect to see probably the least of Widow...Really? Joss Whedon has only one female character who he can have in action scenes and you think she's the character he'll use the least?

[McStabbington]

Why, Natalia Romanova, isn't that just the most adorable little sidearm?

Seriously filmmakers. She's basically the Marvel equivalent of James Bond, only KGB instead of MI6. She's not just eye candy. She's quite capable of being the girl with the giant frickin' gun. (http://iamkele.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/vasquez.jpg)

[MammonAzrael]

Why, Natalia Romanova, isn't that just the most adorable little sidearm?

Seriously filmmakers. She's basically the Marvel equivalent of James Bond, only KGB instead of MI6. She's not just eye candy. She's quite capable of being the girl with the giant frickin' gun. (http://iamkele.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/vasquez.jpg)

Or being the girl that doesn't brawl in the middle of New York because she's busy with all her black ops and assassinations...

[Traab]

Hawkeye and black widow do not belong on the big combat missions. hawkeye because he is shooting a fricking bow and arrow at giant robots, and thats just stupid. Black widow because she isnt heavy combat, she is a spy/assassin. I would take hawkeye any day on an assault on a hydra base, really, I would, but multi story tall murderbots? No. I understand the hatred for heroes with guns in comics, I really do, but a freaking bow and arrow is STUPID for this level of threat, no matter how awesome your special arrowheads are. You could do the same thing with bullets and be way more effective. Hawkeye belongs on the level of noncrossover batman. Taking down human or metahuman badguys on crime sprees, not alien invasion armageddon level threats.

[bloodtide]

Hawkeye and black widow do not belong on the big combat missions. hawkeye because he is shooting a fricking bow and arrow at giant robots, and thats just stupid. Black widow because she isnt heavy combat, she is a spy/assassin. I would take hawkeye any day on an assault on a hydra base, really, I would, but multi story tall murderbots? No. I understand the hatred for heroes with guns in comics, I really do, but a freaking bow and arrow is STUPID for this level of threat, no matter how awesome your special arrowheads are. You could do the same thing with bullets and be way more effective. Hawkeye belongs on the level of noncrossover batman. Taking down human or metahuman badguys on crime sprees, not alien invasion armageddon level threats.

1.Hawkeye is a popular character. And in the comics at least with his 'trick arrows' he can stand toe to toe with the heavy hitters. He has tons of high tech arrows that can do all sorts of things. He is great a mook crowd control and 'pin point blasting'. We have not seen and trick arrows yet, right? He just has normal arrows? Odd as you think he'd have all the nerf arrows quick to make the movie rated G.

2.Why does the Black Widow even have a gun? Did the writers never read even one Avengers comic? BW has an energy blast known as her 'widow's bite' from her 'iron woman gauntlet'. It's much more powerful then 'just a bullet'. And even better it would keep the movie nice and rated G....and BW would not look so weak with her 'lady like' itsy bitsy teen weeny gun.

[Selrahc]

a freaking bow and arrow is STUPID for this level of threat, no matter how awesome your special arrowheads are.

Put an explosive charge on the arrow. Suddenly what you're using is a weird RPG. And unless you think a rapid fire grenade launcher isn't an effective weapon, you're combat relevant.

Arrows have a quite good rate of fire, and unlike bullets they can be dropped over obstacles. Given that Hawkeye is also incredibly accurate with the bow, I don't think it strains disbelief.

[Nightmarenny]

Hawkeye and black widow do not belong on the big combat missions. hawkeye because he is shooting a fricking bow and arrow at giant robots, and thats just stupid. Black widow because she isnt heavy combat, she is a spy/assassin. I would take hawkeye any day on an assault on a hydra base, really, I would, but multi story tall murderbots? No. I understand the hatred for heroes with guns in comics, I really do, but a freaking bow and arrow is STUPID for this level of threat, no matter how awesome your special arrowheads are. You could do the same thing with bullets and be way more effective. Hawkeye belongs on the level of noncrossover batman. Taking down human or metahuman badguys on crime sprees, not alien invasion armageddon level threats.

This is not a good argument. It's not the Avengers vs. A giant Metal snake. Its a fight against hundreds of alien soldiers! You honestly want to tell me that the two of them couldn't do anything against that?

And Hawkeye's arrows are crazy powerful. He's had a freakin' tactical nuke!

[Axolotl]

2.Why does the Black Widow even have a gun? Did the writers never read even one Avengers comic? BW has an energy blast known as her 'widow's bite' from her 'iron woman gauntlet'. It's much more powerful then 'just a bullet'. And even better it would keep the movie nice and rated G....and BW would not look so weak with her 'lady like' itsy bitsy teen weeny gun.She uses guns in the Ultimates which the writer has said he's using as a source (which makes sense given that he wrote the intrduction to The Ultimates 1 trade paperback). Also as to if they've ever read an Avengers comic, someone actually asked the writer what issues they'd read to prepare for the film and he responded that he'd already read them all.

[Nightmarenny]

She uses guns in the Ultimates which the writer has said he's using as a source (which makes sense given that he wrote the intrduction to The Ultimates 1 trade paperback). Also as to if they've ever read an Avengers comic, someone actually asked the writer what issues they'd read to prepare for the film and he responded that he'd already read them all.

She also uses guns in the standard Universe. You can consult her wiki entry for the full list of equipment and gadgets she uses.

[KillianHawkeye]

Just putting this out there, not sure if everyone knows or not.

From what I've heard it's not Marvel that just decided to change the actor for Hulk. If memory serves Edwar Norton and Marvel had a difference of opinions about how the final version of The Hulk shoul've been cut together and Marvels opinion won.

Nortos had cut the movie in a wat that really told the story of the Hulk and Marvel cut together an action movie (I really liked The Hulk these are not my opinions just what I've heard).

Anyway Edward Norton said he wouldn't play the Hulk again, so Marvel was forced to recast.

Additionally from what I've heard when Mark Ruffalo (The Hulk) was approached about the role he sought out Nortons ok before accepting the role.

Just a little background info I thought prople would enjoy.

Huh, I had heard that he didn't even want to do The Hulk in the first place, but he had contracted to do X movies and that was one of the ones they wanted him to do.

[pita]

Huh, I had heard that he didn't even want to do The Hulk in the first place, but he had contracted to do X movies and that was one of the ones they wanted him to do.

I'd heard that Marvel didn't want to work with Norton due to how he takes over every movie he's in (and The Incredible Hulk was mostly directed and written by him after he disagreed with the director and writer) and is generally one of the larger egos in Hollywood. That's only what I heard.
No one knows what happened between Norton and Marvel except for them and their respective agents. At the end of the day I'm not happy with this trade, since I love Norton, but it looks like Ruffalo is taking the character in a different direction so it don't matter as much.

[Zevox]

1.Hawkeye is a popular character. And in the comics at least with his 'trick arrows' he can stand toe to toe with the heavy hitters. He has tons of high tech arrows that can do all sorts of things. He is great a mook crowd control and 'pin point blasting'. We have not seen and trick arrows yet, right? He just has normal arrows? Odd as you think he'd have all the nerf arrows quick to make the movie rated G.

2.Why does the Black Widow even have a gun? Did the writers never read even one Avengers comic? BW has an energy blast known as her 'widow's bite' from her 'iron woman gauntlet'. It's much more powerful then 'just a bullet'. And even better it would keep the movie nice and rated G....and BW would not look so weak with her 'lady like' itsy bitsy teen weeny gun.
Don't know where you're getting the idea that this movie would be rated G. All of the movies leading up to it - both Iron Man movies, Thor, The Incredible Hulk, and Captain America - have been PG-13.

Zevox

[bloodtide]

Don't know where you're getting the idea that this movie would be rated G. All of the movies leading up to it - both Iron Man movies, Thor, The Incredible Hulk, and Captain America - have been PG-13.

Zevox

There is almost no difference between G and PG-13. It will all be 'action adventure' with no 'violence, harm or death'. They won't be killing the alien solders that are invading the Earth, they will simply be knocking them out so that they can go home and think about how bad they have been.

So why even have pointed arrows and bullets? The characters can't use them!

[Axolotl]

There is almost no difference between G and PG-13. It will all be 'action adventure' with no 'violence, harm or death'. They won't be killing the alien solders that are invading the Earth, they will simply be knocking them out so that they can go home and think about how bad they have been.

So why even have pointed arrows and bullets? The characters can't use them!What? Where have they said they won't be killing anyone?

[Dienekes]

There is almost no difference between G and PG-13. It will all be 'action adventure' with no 'violence, harm or death'. They won't be killing the alien solders that are invading the Earth, they will simply be knocking them out so that they can go home and think about how bad they have been.

So why even have pointed arrows and bullets? The characters can't use them!

Huh? For the record, The Dark Knight was pg-13 and involved quite a good deal of shooting, and stabbing. I can't even think of a g rated film that had a gun. In Iron Man, also pg-13, he shoots terrorists in the face. In Captain America quite a few soldiers where seen getting shot with bullets, before they switched over to disintegration guns. Honestly I have no idea what you're talking about here.

[Traab]

This is not a good argument. It's not the Avengers vs. A giant Metal snake. Its a fight against hundreds of alien soldiers! You honestly want to tell me that the two of them couldn't do anything against that?

And Hawkeye's arrows are crazy powerful. He's had a freakin' tactical nuke!

Yeah but the point is, anything he can do with a bow and arrow, he could even more easily do with a gun. Barring the dropping over obstacles thing, but for that he can lob special grenades or whatever and get the same effect with his pinpoint accuracy. Guns are more maneuverable than bows, the ammo is a lot easier to carry in mass amounts, easier to rapid fire when needed, etc etc etc. I understand why it was done in the comics, its because heroes + guns = no. A few have used them, but its very very rare.

Hawkeye would do fine taking down mooks, though he would still do better with a gun, I just have a very hard time suspending disbelief enough to think that he could hang with the big boys when the giant threats pop up.

[DiscipleofBob]

Yeah but the point is, anything he can do with a bow and arrow, he could even more easily do with a gun. Barring the dropping over obstacles thing, but for that he can lob special grenades or whatever and get the same effect with his pinpoint accuracy. Guns are more maneuverable than bows, the ammo is a lot easier to carry in mass amounts, easier to rapid fire when needed, etc etc etc. I understand why it was done in the comics, its because heroes + guns = no. A few have used them, but its very very rare.

Hawkeye would do fine taking down mooks, though he would still do better with a gun, I just have a very hard time suspending disbelief enough to think that he could hang with the big boys when the giant threats pop up.

Because a modern bow can be just as effective as a gun and even more so with the right training? And a comic-book-tech bow wielded by Hawkeye and enough specialized arrows would be far more accurate, devastating, and faster than a gun.

[Oindoth]

Have ... have you read the Hawkeye comics? He doesn't just use a bow for the purposes of avoiding guns ...

[Selrahc]

Hawkeye would do fine taking down mooks, though he would still do better with a gun,

The main advantage of a bow over a gun is stealth. Even a silenced gun makes a noise, while a bow shot is completely silent. Special forces still used crossbows for that reason, right up until the 80s.

In a big super powered combat? It's a funky grenade launcher.



Because a modern bow can be just as effective as a gun and even more so with the right training?

Well don't go overboard. Guns pack more killing power, have longer ranges and shoot faster. A revolver expert can loose 12 shots in 5 seconds. An assault rifle can shoot hundreds of rounds. An expert bowman would be lucky to get 12 in a minute. There are some advantages to bows, but for the most part guns are better weapons.

[Traab]

Because a modern bow can be just as effective as a gun and even more so with the right training? And a comic-book-tech bow wielded by Hawkeye and enough specialized arrows would be far more accurate, devastating, and faster than a gun.

Anything he could do with a fancy comic book bow, he could do better with a fancy comic book gun. Stark could just as easily set hawkeye up with some special energy blaster that can be adjusted to fire off just about anything he could want, stuns, paralyzers, knockout rounds, exploding rounds, rapid fire, etc etc etc. It would make at least as much sense as his special arrow heads, probably more, and it would look way less silly. At least the green arrow tended to stick to gotham level criminals, making his bow schtick more encounter level appropriate.


Have ... have you read the Hawkeye comics? He doesn't just use a bow for the purposes of avoiding guns ...
__________________

Sorry, I meant the writers tend to avoid creating superheroes who use guns. As I said, there are exceptions, but generally the superhero set goes for anything else but something that looks like a gun. I dont pretend to know hawkeyes backstory, im just making a point that a man with a bow looks ridiculous when facing end of the world level threats when compared to the likes of thor, iron man, the hulk, and captain america. His only special ability is he is a really good shot. He isnt particularly fast, strong, resilient, or anything else that would keep him from turning into a bloody smear from things able to hit iron man hard enough to send him flying.

[ric0]

you have a problem with a comic book hero using a bow on a giant metal robot, but not with several comic book heros going hand to hand with the same robot.........?


My point being, its a comic book, anything works if you want it to.

[Traab]

you have a problem with a comic book hero using a bow on a giant metal robot, but not with several comic book heros going hand to hand with the same robot.........?


My point being, its a comic book, anything works if you want it to.

Most of said hand to hand fighters have some sort of edge, even captain america is at a level of physical shape that makes a regular athlete look like a fat couch potato. The rest either tend to have superhuman strength, speed, or special abilities, like say, wolverine, that lets him fight in hand to hand and tear apart said robots. Hawkeye is basically like batman. He is a regular human. In the comic history I read, his accuracy isnt even a power, its something he trained in while working as a carny. He doesnt even have the absurdly high level of training batman has that lets him fight so well and be in such amazing shape.

[Zevox]

you have a problem with a comic book hero using a bow on a giant metal robot, but not with several comic book heros going hand to hand with the same robot.........?
Iron Man has his suit and all that it can do. The Hulk has ridiculous super strength and durability. Thor has his hammer and all that its magic lets him do. They're all in perfectly fine shape for such a fight.

Captain America... well, he has his shield at least, and it's supposed to be made of some ridiculously indestructible metal that not even Wolverine can cut, so maybe he can do something with that. He is easily the worst off of the lot besides Hawkeye and Black Widow though, since his super strength and durability are much more moderate than Hulk or Thor's.

Zevox

[leafman]

From wikipedia:

Powers and abilities
While Hawkeye has no superhuman powers (with the exception of the period when using Pym particles to become Goliath), he is at the very peak of human conditioning; he is an exceptional fencer, acrobat and a grandmaster marksman, having been trained from childhood in the circus and by the criminals Trick Shot and Swordsman. Hawkeye has also been thoroughly trained by Captain America in tactics, martial arts, and hand-to-hand combat. Hawkeye excels in the use of ranged weapons, especially the bow and arrow, and carries a quiver containing a number of customized "trick-arrows". In his role as Ronin, Barton shows great proficiency with the katana and other melee weapons.

Clint is no slouch, he's quite capable of handling himself without his bow. The bow is just Hawkeye's gimmick just like Cap and his shield. Sure Hawkeye could use a special gun, but any goon can use a gun, not every goon can use a bow with efficiency.
It makes more sense to me, for Hawkeye to carry arrows with their special functions built into them than a gun with them. Is it easier to believe he has an arrow that launches a net, an electric shock arrow, and an exploding arrow or a gun that can fire those same effects, sometimes all at the same time?

[MammonAzrael]

It makes more sense to me, for Hawkeye to carry arrows with their special functions built into them than a gun with them. Is it easier to believe he has an arrow that launches a net, an electric shock arrow, and an exploding arrow or a gun that can fire those same effects, sometimes all at the same time?

Clearly, you need to watch more Darkwing Duck. :smallamused:

The simple fact is that it doesn't matter how well trained and in shape Hawkeye (and Black Widow) are, they're still constrained by normal human limits, while none of the others are (though Cap is close...technically not super-human (http://marvel.wikia.com/Captain_America_%28Steven_Rogers%29#Powers_and_Abi litiesEdit)). Which means that they're glass cannons at the very best, as they cannot take a single hit without being seriously injured. Which is one of the reasons having them stand next to three extremely durable targets looks ridiculous.

Additionally, most of a bows advantages over guns are lost when stealth isn't a big player, and against robots and heavily armored foes you're still better off with a gun. The only saving grace will be dependant upon how many explosive arrows he is packing, as grenades should be effective regardless of the delivery method.

Neither one belongs in the middle of a brawl like that though.

[Soras Teva Gee]

@Hawkeye and Guns:
They had Hawkeye use guns in Ultimate, it didn't work well. Yeah its archer is gimmick but its a classic one. Guns are not elegant, they are bang and you are dead. That is why no movie anywhere has them be as efficient as they really are.



At 1:19, how is Cap not obliterated by Thor? :smallconfused:


Ahem.

Nobody "obliterates" Cap. Period. You can beat Cap in a fight sure, but he will give you three times the fight you were planning on.

When Cap and Batman fought, Batman conceded his defeat. (JLA/Avengers possibly the greatest comic ever)

[Axolotl]

Clearly, you need to watch more Darkwing Duck. :smallamused:

The simple fact is that it doesn't matter how well trained and in shape Hawkeye (and Black Widow) are, they're still constrained by normal human limits, while none of the others are (though Cap is close...technically not super-human (http://marvel.wikia.com/Captain_America_%28Steven_Rogers%29#Powers_and_Abi litiesEdit)). Which means that they're glass cannons at the very best, as they cannot take a single hit without being seriously injured. Which is one of the reasons having them stand next to three extremely durable targets looks ridiculous.

Additionally, most of a bows advantages over guns are lost when stealth isn't a big player, and against robots and heavily armored foes you're still better off with a gun. The only saving grace will be dependant upon how many explosive arrows he is packing, as grenades should be effective regardless of the delivery method.

Neither one belongs in the middle of a brawl like that though.They do because while just humans (although isn't Black Widow super? I thought she was) they are comic book heros as well (although in this case Hollywood action heroes) and they have all the powers that confers. So while they are constrained by "normal human limits" they're still from the genre where Batman falls into that category and as such those limits only stop them doing things that are explicitly impossible. Hawkeye is still able to say kill a room full of armed thugs on his own, using his fingernails, while tied to a chair.

They belong because they're grade-A badasses, yes they're human but so is Batman, James Bond, John McClane, The Bride and most of the characters Clint Eastwood or Bruce Lee ever played. They're action heroes, just because they don't have super-powers doesn't mean they can't play with the big boys, it just makes it more impressive when they do.

[leafman]

Heh well, I have seen Darkwing Duck, used to watch it all the time (still have some of the original toys in my closet), but I think his gun is the least of my worries on a scale of believability :smallbiggrin:

I have to agree that neither Hawkeye nor Black Widow belong in the movie, but they have both been with the Avengers since the 60's. The only other options I think were to either only include characters that have had their own movie or try to introduce Hank Pym (as ant-man, giant-man, goliath, or yellow jacket) and Wasp in this movie.

[Nightmarenny]

Yeah but the point is, anything he can do with a bow and arrow, he could even more easily do with a gun. Barring the dropping over obstacles thing, but for that he can lob special grenades or whatever and get the same effect with his pinpoint accuracy. Guns are more maneuverable than bows, the ammo is a lot easier to carry in mass amounts, easier to rapid fire when needed, etc etc etc. I understand why it was done in the comics, its because heroes + guns = no. A few have used them, but its very very rare.

Hawkeye would do fine taking down mooks, though he would still do better with a gun, I just have a very hard time suspending disbelief enough to think that he could hang with the big boys when the giant threats pop up.

The idea is that Hawk-eye is so accurate that the speed and length of a gun from this day and age has little to offer. He's so good both even out and he prefers the bow. Notice that in Thor Coulson tells the guy to "grab a gun this time!" it sounds like shield's best sniper has a weird love of the bow and eventually they just gave up.

"Fine man, you can use a stupid bow!"

The Bow does offer one major advantage to guns. People keep saying it's basically a grenade launcher. That's pretty accurate but anyone you saw the recent Ghost Rider sequel knows that Grenade Launchers take a heck of a time to reload. Our Hawkeye not only can fire off multiple explosives much faster then your average grenade launcher. That's not all. He can switch arrow types with every shot. this is a big deal for a guy who has to relay on exploiting the enemies weakness.

While I'm at it let me say a few things about cap. First he was able to take that shot from Thor because vibranium, the metal his shield is made of, absorbs and nullifies any force put against him. It's a literal unmovable object.

Captain is technically Superhuman. Think about this. He is as strong as any human being ever can be, he can run the fastest and the longest, and his heart and lungs are the strongest any human circulatory system could be all at the same time. So while anyone thing he does might be possible for a human the synergy his body possesses makes him more then the some of his parts and he can do things a human never could.

Also Norton most definitively wanted to do Hulk and Avengers. When Marvel announced they were considering replacing him he started an online campaign to get Marvel to keep him. Norton was probably fired for one of two reasons. He was asking for two much money or he wanted to much control. I vote the latter.

[Nightmarenny]

Yeah but the point is, anything he can do with a bow and arrow, he could even more easily do with a gun. Barring the dropping over obstacles thing, but for that he can lob special grenades or whatever and get the same effect with his pinpoint accuracy. Guns are more maneuverable than bows, the ammo is a lot easier to carry in mass amounts, easier to rapid fire when needed, etc etc etc. I understand why it was done in the comics, its because heroes + guns = no. A few have used them, but its very very rare.

Hawkeye would do fine taking down mooks, though he would still do better with a gun, I just have a very hard time suspending disbelief enough to think that he could hang with the big boys when the giant threats pop up.

The idea is that Hawk-eye is so accurate that the speed and length of a gun from this day and age has little to offer. He's so good both even out and he prefers the bow. Notice that in Thor Coulson tells the guy to "grab a gun this time!" it sounds like shield's best sniper has a weird love of the bow and eventually they just gave up.

"Fine man, you can use a stupid bow!"

The Bow does offer one major advantage to guns. People keep saying it's basically a grenade launcher. That's pretty accurate but anyone you saw the recent Ghost Rider sequel knows that Grenade Launchers take a heck of a time to reload. Our Hawkeye not only can fire off multiple explosives much faster then your average grenade launcher. That's not all. He can switch arrow types with every shot. this is a big deal for a guy who has to relay on exploiting the enemies weakness.

While I'm at it let me say a few things about cap. First he was able to take that shot from Thor because vibranium, the metal his shield is made of, absorbs and nullifies any force put against him. It's a literal unmovable object.

Captain is technically Superhuman. Think about this. He is as strong as any human being ever can be, he can run the fastest and the longest, and his heart and lungs are the strongest any human circulatory system could be all at the same time. So while anyone thing he does might be possible for a human the synergy his body possesses makes him more then the some of his parts and he can do things a human never could.

Also Norton most definitively wanted to do Hulk and Avengers. When Marvel announced they were considering replacing him he started an online campaign to get Marvel to keep him. Norton was probably fired for one of two reasons. He was asking for two much money or he wanted to much control. I vote the latter.

[Nightmarenny]

Yeah but the point is, anything he can do with a bow and arrow, he could even more easily do with a gun. Barring the dropping over obstacles thing, but for that he can lob special grenades or whatever and get the same effect with his pinpoint accuracy. Guns are more maneuverable than bows, the ammo is a lot easier to carry in mass amounts, easier to rapid fire when needed, etc etc etc. I understand why it was done in the comics, its because heroes + guns = no. A few have used them, but its very very rare.

Hawkeye would do fine taking down mooks, though he would still do better with a gun, I just have a very hard time suspending disbelief enough to think that he could hang with the big boys when the giant threats pop up.

The idea is that Hawk-eye is so accurate that the speed and length of a gun from this day and age has little to offer. He's so good both even out and he prefers the bow. Notice that in Thor Coulson tells the guy to "grab a gun this time!" it sounds like shield's best sniper has a weird love of the bow and eventually they just gave up.

"Fine man, you can use a stupid bow!"

The Bow does offer one major advantage to guns. People keep saying it's basically a grenade launcher. That's pretty accurate but anyone you saw the recent Ghost Rider sequel knows that Grenade Launchers take a heck of a time to reload. Our Hawkeye not only can fire off multiple explosives much faster then your average grenade launcher. That's not all. He can switch arrow types with every shot. this is a big deal for a guy who has to relay on exploiting the enemies weakness.

While I'm at it let me say a few things about cap. First he was able to take that shot from Thor because vibranium, the metal his shield is made of, absorbs and nullifies any force put against him. It's a literal unmovable object.

Captain is technically Superhuman. Think about this. He is as strong as any human being ever can be, he can run the fastest and the longest, and his heart and lungs are the strongest any human circulatory system could be all at the same time. So while anyone thing he does might be possible for a human the synergy his body possesses makes him more then the some of his parts and he can do things a human never could.

Also Norton most definitively wanted to do Hulk and Avengers. When Marvel announced they were considering replacing him he started an online campaign to get Marvel to keep him. Norton was probably fired for one of two reasons. He was asking for two much money or he wanted to much control. I vote the latter.

[MammonAzrael]

Nobody "obliterates" Cap. Period. You can beat Cap in a fight sure, but he will give you three times the fight you were planning on.

When Cap and Batman fought, Batman conceded his defeat. (JLA/Avengers possibly the greatest comic ever)

Sure, I Cap can beat Bats in a fight. But look at that shot in the trailer. Assuming Thor isn't pulling punches down to the level of human-low superhuman, getting hit like that would result in an undamaged shield on the ground, covering a pancake of human tissue that used to be Steve Rodgers. They don't operate on even close to the same level. Intellectually I'm quite sure Rodgers will win the majority of the time, but look at that shot. Cap isn't outsmarting Thor, he's just about to take a hit from Mjolnir.


They do because while just humans (although isn't Black Widow super? I thought she was) they are comic book heros as well (although in this case Hollywood action heroes) and they have all the powers that confers. So while they are constrained by "normal human limits" they're still from the genre where Batman falls into that category and as such those limits only stop them doing things that are explicitly impossible. Hawkeye is still able to say kill a room full of armed thugs on his own, using his fingernails, while tied to a chair.

They belong because they're grade-A badasses, yes they're human but so is Batman, James Bond, John McClane, The Bride and most of the characters Clint Eastwood or Bruce Lee ever played. They're action heroes, just because they don't have super-powers doesn't mean they can't play with the big boys, it just makes it more impressive when they do.

Apparently BW was exposed to a variation of the Super Soldier Serum, which makes her much like Cap. Generally less powerful since it boost her to the peak of human performance, and a woman of her stature is just going to be less physically powerful than a man of Cap's stature. But she's still at the peak of human capability, which gives her a touch more durability. And that means that my issue with her at least moves from "human issues" to one of why is a black ops special agent/assassin acting like a thug, and not busy somewhere else killing high profile targets?

And I think the badass argument is a point of personal difference. While they are both badass and can keep company with the big boys, that doesn't mean they're equipped to slug it out with the big boys or enemies that share a similar power level. It'd be like Batman beating up Darkseid in a fist fight. Bats may be able to defeat Darkseid, but not with brute strength, and that's the same boat I put Hawkeye and BW in in that scene.


Heh well, I have seen Darkwing Duck, used to watch it all the time (still have some of the original toys in my closet), but I think his gun is the least of my worries on a scale of believability :smallbiggrin:

:smallbiggrin:


I have to agree that neither Hawkeye nor Black Widow belong in the movie, but they have both been with the Avengers since the 60's. The only other options I think were to either only include characters that have had their own movie or try to introduce Hank Pym (as ant-man, giant-man, goliath, or yellow jacket) and Wasp in this movie.

I agree with you there. I think the inclusion of Hawkeye and Black Widow in the movie is great. While I'd like to have seen Hank and Janet, I completely understand why they decided to forgo the two and their reputation. They just don't belong in that scene/shot. Even if that have a great reason for being in the middle of that battle, they should be hidden, using their range to avoid dying and relying on stealth to pull off sneak attacks.

[WalkingTarget]

Sure, I Cap can beat Bats in a fight. But look at that shot in the trailer. Assuming Thor isn't pulling punches down to the level of human-low superhuman, getting hit like that would result in an undamaged shield on the ground, covering a pancake of human tissue that used to be Steve Rodgers. They don't operate on even close to the same level. Intellectually I'm quite sure Rodgers will win the majority of the time, but look at that shot. Cap isn't outsmarting Thor, he's just about to take a hit from Mjolnir.

Interesting, comic-book, non-logical thing about Vibranium: perfect "vibrational" absorption. Doesn't matter how hard you hit it, the shield negates the force. That's why it allows Cap to take hits from things without being knocked back/squished beneath it.

No, this doesn't make sense, particularly given how he's able to throw/ricochet it around as a weapon. It's the justification given for why he's able to go toe-to-toe against powerhouses on Hulk or Thor's level, though.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I have to agree that neither Hawkeye nor Black Widow belong in the movie, but they have both been with the Avengers since the 60's. The only other options I think were to either only include characters that have had their own movie or try to introduce Hank Pym (as ant-man, giant-man, goliath, or yellow jacket) and Wasp in this movie.

Well given that this movie is highly based on the Ultimates so that is the base for consideration and outside of the three that have to be there, Hawkeye and Black Widow are the easiest.

Hank and Janet would be fairly annoying to do powerwise. You've got to do a bunch of technical work since their powers break the scale the rest of the characters are going to be using. Do you CGI in Giant-Man and hope it looks natural, or greenscreen everything else around him in particular to him. And with Hulk around and this not being comics, how at all do they stay clothed if you want to change size on screen. And what exactly is their story? The characters don't lend to being shifted to anything but a scientist and his girlfriend who also has powers.

And well Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are mutants, in particular they are Magneto's kids (and former terrorists) but were never established in the X-movies. Does this movieverse even have mutants, I suspect there's a shout out or five but its not played up at all.

Hawkeye and Black Widow though... successfully rebooted in the past decade as really badass SHIELD agents. Perfect for supporting characters.


Captain is technically Superhuman. Think about this. He is as strong as any human being ever can be, he can run the fastest and the longest, and his heart and lungs are the strongest any human circulatory system could be all at the same time. So while anyone thing he does might be possible for a human the synergy his body possesses makes him more then the some of his parts and he can do things a human never could.

I've always thought it best explained as Cap could go to the Olympics and win every single event.

I even personally asterix that with you could possibly have say a Usain Bolt who could beat Cap in a sprint. But it would be one event and Cap can medal in just about any event you choose.


Sure, I Cap can beat Bats in a fight. But look at that shot in the trailer. Assuming Thor isn't pulling punches down to the level of human-low superhuman, getting hit like that would result in an undamaged shield on the ground, covering a pancake of human tissue that used to be Steve Rodgers. They don't operate on even close to the same level. Intellectually I'm quite sure Rodgers will win the majority of the time, but look at that shot. Cap isn't outsmarting Thor, he's just about to take a hit from Mjolnir.

A) Trailers Always Lie, something else may be going on.

B) Cap's shield is always like that, its not simply indestructible but also actively absorbs/nullifies attacks way out of Cap's own weight class. Its one of the most powerful items in comics because of that property.

[Devonix]

Interesting, comic-book, non-logical thing about Vibranium: perfect "vibrational" absorption. Doesn't matter how hard you hit it, the shield negates the force. That's why it allows Cap to take hits from things without being knocked back/squished beneath it.

No, this doesn't make sense, particularly given how he's able to throw/ricochet it around as a weapon. It's the justification given for why he's able to go toe-to-toe against powerhouses on Hulk or Thor's level, though.

Hell the shield has even been shown to take energy blasts from GALACTUS and keep Steve safe.

[bloodtide]

Well given that this movie is highly based on the Ultimates so that is the base for consideration and outside of the three that have to be there, Hawkeye and Black Widow are the easiest.

Hawkeye and Black Widow though... successfully rebooted in the past decade as really badass SHIELD agents. Perfect for supporting characters.


I guess they felt they should have a couple of 'near normal humans' to round out the Avengers. It does save on production costs as 'near normal' does not need CGI or anything like that. Scarlett(or her stunt double) can just jump over something, while Iron Man has to spend lots of money in effects to fly over it.

But I wonder why the Black Widow? Sure they wanted to have 'at least one' female character, but they have plenty to pick from. Warbird would be the obvious choice, as she has the power to go toe to toe in all the action. Captain Marvel/Photon would have also worked or even Firestar.

[McStabbington]

Why the Black Widow? I guess it depends on whether you mean in universe or out of universe. Out of universe, it's because it allows you to cast Scarlett Johansson. As eye candy goes, she's not really my cup of tea, but I recognize that I am in the distinct minority on this point.

In universe? It's because not every problem is a nail. If you want a hammer, Thor or Iron Man or Hulk can do it without too much of a problem. If you want a scalpel, Black Widow is better for that mission than even Captain America is. Cap might be better conditioned, but he's also got a code of ethics that won't allow certain things to be done, and all of his training, however considerable, is effectively special forces and/or advanced tactical training. There's a world of difference between Spetznaz and KGB, and Black Widow is supposed to be the best intelligence agent in the world.

Really, the only problem with that team up is not that Black Widow doesn't belong on the team. It's that she doesn't belong in that situation, and if she did, she'd be carrying something a bit more useful than such a dainty little weapon. I'm not familiar enough with handguns to recognize types by appearance, but I know enough that I would be surprised if it was larger than a .22 caliber weapon. Which means it's going to have trouble stopping a plain unarmed man, much less a giant machine.

[Nightmarenny]

I guess they felt they should have a couple of 'near normal humans' to round out the Avengers. It does save on production costs as 'near normal' does not need CGI or anything like that. Scarlett(or her stunt double) can just jump over something, while Iron Man has to spend lots of money in effects to fly over it.

But I wonder why the Black Widow? Sure they wanted to have 'at least one' female character, but they have plenty to pick from. Warbird would be the obvious choice, as she has the power to go toe to toe in all the action. Captain Marvel/Photon would have also worked or even Firestar.


I presume you meant Ms. Marvel as wiki tells me "Warbird" is one of her aliases? She comes with a lot of backstory that would require it's own movie or for the Avengers movies to be about the secret invasion. Or to completely change her origin and wheres the fun in that?

Captain Marvel has the same issue and Firestar is pretty second string. They could have gotten Giant man and Wasp but they are still working that out for his movie. They couldn't use Quicksilver or Scarlet Witch(a damnedable shame) because they are technically X-char. Same for Wolverine. Spiderman has similar issues.

Black Widow and Hawkeye are Avengers mainstays. They pretty much are always on a team. It's no surprise that when they were looking for characters that wouldn't need a movie introduction they came across those too. Frankly it might have technically not been an avengers movie if Hawkeye wern't involved.

[Soras Teva Gee]

But I wonder why the Black Widow? Sure they wanted to have 'at least one' female character, but they have plenty to pick from. Warbird would be the obvious choice, as she has the power to go toe to toe in all the action. Captain Marvel/Photon would have also worked or even Firestar.

Because the Ultimates did Black Widow and were wildly successful in doing so. Also would you care to name a more prominent female character without powers that makes any kind a sense in this movie. So help me the only one that springs to mind is Maria Hill... who is in the movie already. And also while the budget for powers is one thing, there's also being able to explain their presence. We can argue the point as to whether the public would by it, but as yet there isn't consensus for a broad world of heroes in the movies, so where does super-heroine X, Y, or Z come from? Black Widow is easy,we know all we need to know from Iron Man 2. Same deal with Hawkeye, they both are extra gadgety James Bond agents. Audience knows this sort of archetyp..... Done

Look at your suggestions in particular. Ms. Marvel owes her powers to the original 1st Marvel Captain Marvel. Her powers basis is extraterrestrial, Kree in particular. You have to introduce an entire major power of the Marvel Universe for her to make sense. And so help me I've heard Skrull not Kree are the aliens. Now if they do more movies and then yeah there's room.

Firestar, well Firestar comes from a Spider-man cartoon. She's been and Avenger I understand, but heck she's not exactly prominently so. And so help me she's never been advanced beyond teen/YA class, so kind of boils out. Also she's a mutant, until Marvel get the X-men back in-house (not likely with First Class's success) I wouldn't count on seeing the concept taken on in their own filmverse.

Finally Monica Rambeau. Monica Rambeau was in Nextwave, actually she lead it for all the good it did her. Nextwave is raw awesome smoking crack made of crazy. Nextwave is hypercanon. Hypercanon is that rare work that can't be exiled by its out-of-continuity status and forever influences those involved. Nextwave is not a part of a Marvel Comics Event.
Also Mark Millar licks goats. That will be all.

[Selrahc]

Look at your suggestions in particular. Ms. Marvel owes her powers to the original 1st Marvel Captain Marvel. Her powers basis is extraterrestrial, Kree in particular. You have to introduce an entire major power of the Marvel Universe for her to make sense. And so help me I've heard Skrull not Kree are the aliens. Now if they do more movies and then yeah there's room.

I think that's a pretty fantastic opening for Ms. Marvel in fact. The Kree and the Skrull are enemies, so the Kree would want to oppose whatever the Skrull are doing. A few minutes explanation could introduce Ms. Marvel as a human empowered by the Kree.

I would also say that somebody else could have been introduced by pawning it off on SHIELDs in-house superhero creation program. Since we've been introduced to the concept of human created super powers in... every previous movie bar Thor, I don't think it requires that much stretch to think that SHIELD has a program.

However. I think Black Widow is a fine choice. She's probably the highest profile non-xman female hero in Marvel, aside from maybe Ms. Marvel. She has a long history with the Avengers and SHIELD. And she was easy to introduce and characterize in a separate movie, saving set up time in this one.

[Nightmarenny]

I think that's a pretty fantastic opening for Ms. Marvel in fact. The Kree and the Skrull are enemies, so the Kree would want to oppose whatever the Skrull are doing. A few minutes explanation could introduce Ms. Marvel as a human empowered by the Kree.

I would also say that somebody else could have been introduced by pawning it off on SHIELDs in-house superhero creation program. Since we've been introduced to the concept of human created super powers in... every previous movie bar Thor, I don't think it requires that much stretch to think that SHIELD has a program.

However. I think Black Widow is a fine choice. She's probably the highest profile non-xman female hero in Marvel, aside from maybe Ms. Marvel. She has a long history with the Avengers and SHIELD. And she was easy to introduce and characterize in a separate movie, saving set up time in this one.

But the Skrull and Kree are not in this movie.

[Devonix]

But the Skrull and Kree are not in this movie.

:smallamused:

[Nightmarenny]

:smallamused:

We've seen the aliens. They look nothing like Skrull or Kree and also what is to be gained from lying about it?

[lord_khaine]

We've seen the aliens. They look nothing like Skrull or Kree and also what is to be gained from lying about it?

Ahh, the best evidence for it being a Skrull, is if it doesnt look like a Skrull :smalltongue:

Anyway, i gotta agree on that while Hawkeye and Black Widow might belong in the Avengers, then they certainly doesnt belong in the middle of a huge brawl with an alien invasion force.

Also, i came up with a very simple explanation for why Cap can both block hammerblows with the shield, and still use it like a throwing weapon.
Its simply a case of letting the edge be covered in a band of some metal, like adamtium, then it would basicaly behave like a big metal ring when thrown.

Still have to come up with a reasoning for why Cap can use the shield to bash people with though...

[Devonix]

Ahh, the best evidence for it being a Skrull, is if it doesnt look like a Skrull :smalltongue:

Anyway, i gotta agree on that while Hawkeye and Black Widow might belong in the Avengers, then they certainly doesnt belong in the middle of a huge brawl with an alien invasion force.

Also, i came up with a very simple explanation for why Cap can both block hammerblows with the shield, and still use it like a throwing weapon.
Its simply a case of letting the edge be covered in a band of some metal, like adamtium, then it would basicaly behave like a big metal ring when thrown.

Still have to come up with a reasoning for why Cap can use the shield to bash people with though...


Easy the shield negates force directed against it, however its capable of directing force outward from it.

[lord_khaine]

Easy the shield negates force directed against it, however its capable of directing force outward from it.

But the problem is, this is the same force.

[Devonix]

But the problem is, this is the same force.

....SCIENCE *runs away*

[MammonAzrael]

Also, i came up with a very simple explanation for why Cap can both block hammerblows with the shield, and still use it like a throwing weapon.
Its simply a case of letting the edge be covered in a band of some metal, like adamtium, then it would basicaly behave like a big metal ring when thrown.

Still have to come up with a reasoning for why Cap can use the shield to bash people with though...

The Shield already has an explanation. Vibranium is crazy stuff on it's own, and Cap's Shield is a completely unique and unknown alloy of it that cranks up the toughness to 11. Apparently, according to the same article, Thor'll need to be wielding the Odinforce to dent/break the shield, so I guess physics can sit down and shut up in the presence of vibranium. :smalltongue:

[Soras Teva Gee]

And yeah Vibranium does whatever it wants, and Cap's shield is a unique alloy beyond that.

Next people are going to be asking how Cap manages to bounce his shield back to him all the time. Answer: because its something Jack Kirby liked to draw, do not question the King

[Devonix]

I think he means how can it negate all force directed against it, yet still deliver force on its own.

[Friv]

Finally Monica Rambeau. Monica Rambeau was in Nextwave, actually she lead it for all the good it did her. Nextwave is raw awesome smoking crack made of crazy. Nextwave is hypercanon. Hypercanon is that rare work that can't be exiled by its out-of-continuity status and forever influences those involved. Nextwave is not a part of a Marvel Comics Event.
Also Mark Millar licks goats. That will be all.

This here is precisely why Monica Rambeau needs to be in an Avengers movie. Because god damn it, I want a Nextwave movie. I want it so badly that I can taste it.

It tastes like anger.

[Nightmarenny]

Ahh, the best evidence for it being a Skrull, is if it doesnt look like a Skrull :smalltongue:

Anyway, i gotta agree on that while Hawkeye and Black Widow might belong in the Avengers, then they certainly doesnt belong in the middle of a huge brawl with an alien invasion force.

Also, i came up with a very simple explanation for why Cap can both block hammerblows with the shield, and still use it like a throwing weapon.
Its simply a case of letting the edge be covered in a band of some metal, like adamtium, then it would basicaly behave like a big metal ring when thrown.

Still have to come up with a reasoning for why Cap can use the shield to bash people with though...

Why? We don't know the context of this fight but it seems most likely this will take place right after the portal opens on top of the Empire State Building and the Avengers have to defend their base from a sudden Alien Invasion. SO they get out there in a hurry. No time to grab bigger weapons, just a couple thousand enemies about to wreck humanity.

Are you going to tell me the worlds greatest assassins(in starks words) can't do anything to help with that? Will you tell them to go hit the showers?

[MammonAzrael]

Are you going to tell me the worlds greatest assassins(in starks words) can't do anything to help with that? Will you tell them to go hit the showers?

No. I would tell them to not stand in the middle of the street with several front line soldiers looking like they're waiting for the enemy, and instead get the **** out of sight, remain out of sight, and start killing as many enemies as possible without them knowing. Gathering intelligence would be nice too. But above all, I sure as hell wouldn't want her on the front lines.

[Anteros]

]
When Cap and Batman fought, Batman conceded his defeat. (JLA/Avengers possibly the greatest comic ever)

This isn't what actually happened, although people like to misrepresent the quote. The exact quote is "It's conceivable you could beat me Avenger, but it would take you a very long time. Tell me this though, do you want to?" That isn't admitting defeat at all. If anything, Bats won the exchange by manipulating Cap into doing what he wanted instead of fighting.



No. I would tell them to not stand in the middle of the street with several front line soldiers looking like they're waiting for the enemy, and instead get the **** out of sight, remain out of sight, and start killing as many enemies as possible without them knowing. Gathering intelligence would be nice too. But above all, I sure as hell wouldn't want her on the front lines.

Real battles don't work that way. I'm not saying it's wise to stand in the middle of the street and pose...but even if you're a stealth specialist, there are going to be times when you're caught out in the open and have to fight. Besides, given the circumstances, you're probably a lot better protected standing next to Iron Man, Thor, and the Hulk than you would be hiding behind a wall or something.

[Nightmarenny]

This isn't what actually happened, although people like to misrepresent the quote. The exact quote is "It's conceivable you could beat me Avenger, but it would take you a very long time. Tell me this though, do you want to?" That isn't admitting defeat at all. If anything, Bats won the exchange by manipulating Cap into doing what he wanted instead of fighting.




Real battles don't work that way. I'm not saying it's wise to stand in the middle of the street and pose...but even if you're a stealth specialist, there are going to be times when you're caught out in the open and have to fight. Besides, given the circumstances, you're probably a lot better protected standing next to Iron Man, Thor, and the Hulk than you would be hiding behind a wall or something.

If this were an RPG I'd give everybody who was Hulk, Thor or Ironman an automatic + to stealth while around them.

Nobody's paying attention to you when the giant unstoppable Green thing is barreling down on you.

[Soras Teva Gee]

This isn't what actually happened, although people like to misrepresent the quote. The exact quote is "It's conceivable you could beat me Avenger, but it would take you a very long time. Tell me this though, do you want to?" That isn't admitting defeat at all. If anything, Bats won the exchange by manipulating Cap into doing what he wanted instead of fighting.

Ahem... Yes it is. That will be all. Shoo Batgod, Shoo! Bats isn't even the best fighter in DC!

[Dienekes]

Ahem... Yes it is. That will be all. Shoo Batgod, Shoo! Bats isn't even the best fighter in DC!

And the Cap isn't the best in Marvel. Hell, Bats is generally placed in the top 5ish of DC, I don't remember where Cap places.

[MammonAzrael]

Real battles don't work that way. I'm not saying it's wise to stand in the middle of the street and pose...but even if you're a stealth specialist, there are going to be times when you're caught out in the open and have to fight. Besides, given the circumstances, you're probably a lot better protected standing next to Iron Man, Thor, and the Hulk than you would be hiding behind a wall or something.

True, battles don't work out that way. She's bound to get caught in the open, be spotted, etc. But standing near the heavy hitters seems more like a death sentence than protection. Enemies love to toss around attacks that will deal collateral damage, from energy projection to explosions and beyond. While Thor may be able to withstand an attack, the relatively normal people standing next to hit will fare as well as the pavement and surrounding buildings.

[McStabbington]

And the Cap isn't the best in Marvel. Hell, Bats is generally placed in the top 5ish of DC, I don't remember where Cap places.

Cap is really, really good at hand-to-hand, and has basically the same skill set as Batman. Both are extremely well-conditioned, peak performance humans who possess vast hand-to-hand combat training and also possess superior intelligence. About the only major differences is that the Super Soldier Serum gives Rogers a mild form of regeneration and Bruce Wayne has spent his time studying a much broader range of topics than Cap. But both are basically walking tactical computers mounted on bodies that can push what an unaugmented person can do to the physical limit.

About the only Marvel person I can think of who could really beat him in a melee fight would be Wolverine, and that's only because of the adamantium and the ridiculous powerups he's received over the years. Strip away the claws and scale down his mutant abilities to where it was in the early Claremont era, and Cap would wipe the floor with him.

[Soras Teva Gee]

There are plenty of people who can beat Cap in a melee fight. However the issue is they all bring powers to the table. Wolverine has low end superhuman physical abilities, quite aside from his healing factor and adamantium. Spidey is the greatest natural fighter who can carve through entire teams in a second when he really goes at it... thanks to Spider Sense.

As far as vanilla humans I think Cap's closest challenger is Hawkeye (who was offered to replace Cap for example) but who's responsible for much of Hawkeye's training... you guessed it. Though there's maybe a grey area with Iron Fist and some of his area characters who use chi to get to superhuman powers, depending on how we want to go with skill here. And I doubt there's anyone in Marvel with Cap's record of punching above his weight class.

In contrast Batman has Lady Shiva, Cassandra Cain, and several characters related from there. I'm sure there are fans that would argue for Black Canary and Wildcat too, though the last would be an asterix case of in boxing plus in his prime. Actually Bats has a lot of people better in particular aspects then him. I understand **** Grayson is more agile and acrobatic, quite sensibly so. Heck I think he's even complimented some detectives types as more insightful.

What Bats has is a broad package that no one else matches in universe, he's top ten in a lot of areas so in the more dynamic situations he's a lot better. He doesn't have to be a better in a straight up match because he can stealth out and have you playing cat and mouse with him as the cat.

Now Batman can go away unless someone wants to post a versus thread.

[Selrahc]

As far as vanilla humans I think Cap's closest challenger is Hawkeye (who was offered to replace Cap for example) but who's responsible for much of Hawkeye's training... you guessed it. Though there's maybe a grey area with Iron Fist and some of his area characters who use chi to get to superhuman powers, depending on how we want to go with skill here. And I doubt there's anyone in Marvel with Cap's record of punching above his weight class.

Shiang Chi is canonically the best in Marvel. Iron Fist and Daredevil are also pretty excellent, though arguably superhuman.

EDIT: Black Panther too.

[Xondoure]

So anyone else curious what's Marvel's next movie step after this? With Spidey and the Xmen currently unavailable where do they go next?

[Nightmarenny]

So anyone else curious what's Marvel's next movie step after this? With Spidey and the Xmen currently unavailable where do they go next?

They've already announced it. Project Avengers Mark two.

Currently on the Docket-
Iron Man 3 Next Year
Thor 2 Next year
Captain America 2 2014
Antman whenever Wight finishes the script
Guardians of the Galaxy
The Inhumans

and Tv shows staring Jessica Jones, The Punisher, and the Hulk.

[Avilan the Grey]

Sure, I Cap can beat Bats in a fight. But look at that shot in the trailer. Assuming Thor isn't pulling punches down to the level of human-low superhuman, getting hit like that would result in an undamaged shield on the ground, covering a pancake of human tissue that used to be Steve Rodgers. They don't operate on even close to the same level. Intellectually I'm quite sure Rodgers will win the majority of the time, but look at that shot. Cap isn't outsmarting Thor, he's just about to take a hit from Mjolnir.

This is according to Comicbook canon: Cap can, and have, taken direct hits by Hulk, Shi-ar soldiers, and others. It is just how it works.

[Jan Mattys]

Sure, I Cap can beat Bats in a fight. But look at that shot in the trailer. Assuming Thor isn't pulling punches down to the level of human-low superhuman, getting hit like that would result in an undamaged shield on the ground, covering a pancake of human tissue that used to be Steve Rodgers. They don't operate on even close to the same level. Intellectually I'm quite sure Rodgers will win the majority of the time, but look at that shot. Cap isn't outsmarting Thor, he's just about to take a hit from Mjolnir.

Happens in movies and comics all the time.
In Iron Man 1, Stark is hit by a tank. A direct hit, followed by a long fall to the ground. In another scene, he also gets hit by a freaking F-22 wing.

According to actual physics, it's not really important how strong his robosuit is... Even if we assume the suit is strong enough not to break, tt would basically be a very strong red and gold shell filled with pulverized bones and red goo.

[Nightmarenny]

Happens in movies and comics all the time.
In Iron Man 1, Stark is hit by a tank. A direct hit, followed by a long fall to the ground. In another scene, he also gets hit by a freaking F-22 wing.

According to actual physics, it's not really important how strong his robosuit is... Even if we assume the suit is strong enough not to break, tt would basically be a very strong red and gold shell filled with pulverized bones and red goo.

Not really.

We have gels and shocks we're working on now(though granted we haven't got it working yet) that could manage that.

The armor itself would have to be powered armor. As in a special metal that becomes nearly unbreakable when you run a current through it. Which would also explain why the massive power source was required to make the suit work.

[Jan Mattys]

Not really.

We have gels and shocks we're working on now(though granted we haven't got it working yet) that could manage that.

:smallconfused:
Seriously, I am all for giving some leeway to superhero movies, but I don't think it would be possibile for gel and shock absorbers to nullify the impact of a Mach 2 aircraft to the chest.

Anyway, it was just to point out that sometimes the best course of action is just sit down and enjoy. Everytime you question physics in a superhero movie, God kills a kitten.

Think of the kittens! :smallbiggrin:

[Nightmarenny]

:smallconfused:
Seriously, I am all for giving some leeway to superhero movies, but I don't think it would be possibile for gel and shock absorbers to nullify the impact of a Mach 2 aircraft to the chest.

Anyway, it was just to point out that sometimes the best course of action is just sit down and enjoy. Everytime you question physics in a superhero movie, God kills a kitten.

Think of the kittens! :smallbiggrin:

Of course it would. You just need something to absorb the energy before it get from point A to point B.

That's the least of its problems.

But yeah lets stop talking about physics. This is so stupid.

[Chen]

Happens in movies and comics all the time.
In Iron Man 1, Stark is hit by a tank. A direct hit, followed by a long fall to the ground. In another scene, he also gets hit by a freaking F-22 wing.

According to actual physics, it's not really important how strong his robosuit is... Even if we assume the suit is strong enough not to break, tt would basically be a very strong red and gold shell filled with pulverized bones and red goo.

I can give those two a pass because that was in his fully designed suit. So there are probably inertial dampers or some other sci fi device that protects him.

But the FIRST time his cave-made suit crashes in the desert, it should probably have instantly killed him.

[Avilan the Grey]

I can give those two a pass because that was in his fully designed suit. So there are probably inertial dampers or some other sci fi device that protects him.

But the FIRST time his cave-made suit crashes in the desert, it should probably have instantly killed him.

I think you are confusing SCIENCE! with science. It's an easy mistake made by people that can't build miniature arch reactors in caves. With a bunch of scrap (or without).

...Because Stark not dying when crashing in the desert is by far more unrealistic than the reactor itself... :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[Eldan]

I can see a tiny superreactor, if only because I know nothing about advanced physics, really. But I know enough about mechanics to know that crashing like that kills you, armour or not. So, one seems weirder to me than the other.

Also: if I can prove god exists by making him kill kittens, then it's worth the effort :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

I can see a tiny superreactor, if only because I know nothing about advanced physics, really. But I know enough about mechanics to know that crashing like that kills you, armour or not. So, one seems weirder to me than the other.

Also: if I can prove god exists by making him kill kittens, then it's worth the effort :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

I can see a tiny superreactor, if only because I know nothing about advanced physics, really. But I know enough about mechanics to know that crashing like that kills you, armour or not. So, one seems weirder to me than the other.

Also: if I can prove god exists by making him kill kittens, then it's worth the effort :smalltongue:

[Soras Teva Gee]

One doesn't need advanced knowledge of physics to know say... synthesizing a new element in one's basement is total bunk. Seriously one doesn't need a whole theme park detailing it, just a number of protons and neutrons.

Or for the old one... Well gee Tony you are an engineer explain again how your miniature reactor is poisoning you exactly. I can't seem to find data on Palladium poisoning per say but I'm sure it makes that cool cyberpunk design. But so help me it seems you could just isolate a metal leaking into you with good engineering, you can't possibly have enough in there for it to leak enough to to kill you without ceasing to function. And for that matter putting a new element in there isn't going to purify your blood now is it.

And why would not changing out to some normal batteries help with the whole killing you thing. You were originally hooked up to a car battery yes? Seems to me that popping some D batteries regularly and/or walking around your house with an extension cord is a small price to pay for going on living.

Also how precisely are you generating the massive amounts of energy that armor needs without y'know killing yourself from heat loss from entropy directly into your chest?

[Bitter]

You're pointing out things which can't happen without then coming up with convoluted alternate reasons why they still can happen happen.

This is why none of you win No-Prizes.

[Finn Solomon]

1. I always thought Hawkeye's shtick was a mix of training with the bow, not a gun, versatility (able to reload different arrows for different situations) and not giving his enemies an edge if his weapon was taken from him, as not many people train with bows. More than enough reasons to exclusively use a bow.

2. Anyone else thought it was weird seeing all your favourite superheroes then suddenly Robin Scherbatsky in a SHIELD uniform out of nowhere?

3. RDJ is walking, talking and flying gold. Cannot wait to see him piss off Cap and Hulk and Thor. I'm thinking only Hawkeye will get in a few retorts of his own.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'm actually really worried about RDJ stealing the show. I'm hoping he's just being heavily marketed and actually only being used in an ensemble. Because I want to see the Avengers, not Iron Man 3.

Okay I do want to see Iron Man 3 but I think my point stands.

[kpenguin]

I have to agree here with Soras. I'll be disappointed if this turns into "Iron Man and Friends".

[An Enemy Spy]

There is almost no difference between G and PG-13. It will all be 'action adventure' with no 'violence, harm or death'. They won't be killing the alien solders that are invading the Earth, they will simply be knocking them out so that they can go home and think about how bad they have been.

So why even have pointed arrows and bullets? The characters can't use them!

Despite the fact that every Marvel movie so far has had shooting and killing in them? What movies are you watching?

[Xondoure]

I'm actually really worried about RDJ stealing the show. I'm hoping he's just being heavily marketed and actually only being used in an ensemble. Because I want to see the Avengers, not Iron Man 3.

Okay I do want to see Iron Man 3 but I think my point stands.

From what I've read the conversation went something like this:

RDJ: I'm your star, I will make this movie, help me do it.

Whedon: We'll try it. [some time later] we tried it, the piece is lacking what it needs. Here's why.

RDJ: Yeah I understand, I'm just thrilled to be doing this.

Whedon: Ensemble it is.

Now going off of that reality was probably more like:

RDJ: I'm your star.

Whedon: The producers agree but I've convinced them if we put you in the trailers enough to market the film we can keep the ensemble vibe in the actual movie and come off with a better product. And I know you aren't going to leave because a) you already signed the contract, b) you're making a lot of money, and c) you love this part, your job, and can't believe how lucky you are anyways.

RDJ: ...dammit.

Edit: okay so that's optimistic reality, but hey, I can only be let down right?

[Mordar]

They've already announced it. Project Avengers Mark two.

Currently on the Docket-
[SNIP]
and Tv shows staring Jessica Jones, The Punisher, and the Hulk.

...and Iron Fist! For reals... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0202406/

The Punisher as a TV show...makes sense, but makes me sad. How many times do we have to see a bad Punisher product appear in video format before we realize he should just be stuffed back into a closet somewhere as a reminder of when the world was black (hats) and white (hats) and he actually filled a useful niche as the gray? Now when we're all black hats and BLACK hats, he's just another dude with a gun out to avenge his family, and Arnold has already done that movie (sometimes well) several times.


I'm actually really worried about RDJ stealing the show. I'm hoping he's just being heavily marketed and actually only being used in an ensemble. Because I want to see the Avengers, not Iron Man 3.

Okay I do want to see Iron Man 3 but I think my point stands.

In fact, this has always been a concern of mine...as RJD is the only BIG name (some of the others are BIG names, and some may become BIG names, but just not yet), combined with the background materials, particularly the new cartoon, really pushing Iron Man as the de facto organizer/leader, I think we can expect him to dominate and whip out the world-saving-widget at the end. Let's just hope everyone else gets their moment to shine.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Well the new cartoon makes sense for the same reason it does most often in the comics. Stark is the money. No Stark, no Avengers. And the Avengers cartoon did a great job of it in my opinion.

This doesn't work as an arm of SHIELD though. Hopefully it will be clear that it is Nick Fury who's really in charge, and Cap will get his moment to be what he truly does best in the field.

Which is why I'm totally glad Joss Whedon was directing, because I can at least hope he gets the Avengers and who is clearly what. That said he's more of an X-man fan so..... Yeah I'm keeping my fingers crossed but not holding my breathe.

(And of course there's always the problem of RDJ's mere force of presence. It worked alright in Tropic Thunder, but I'm not sure anyone but Cruise in that movie commanded the same presence. Which in the Avengers means I'm not worried about the guy with B.A.M.F. on his wallet, the rest well we will have to see)

[Xondoure]

That's actually what I'm hoping for, an ensemble cast where they let everyone shine as much as possible. Because in that scenario, yeah, Iron Man is going to pull attention, but that means he'll at least have earned it... If that makes sense.

[MammonAzrael]

In fact, this has always been a concern of mine...as RJD is the only BIG name (some of the others are BIG names, and some may become BIG names, but just not yet), combined with the background materials, particularly the new cartoon, really pushing Iron Man as the de facto organizer/leader, I think we can expect him to dominate and whip out the world-saving-widget at the end. Let's just hope everyone else gets their moment to shine.

Given his intro in the trailer, it seems like the movie won't be pushing Stark as the organizer or leader, but rather The Lancer (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLancer), which naturally pulls attention. I'm ok with that.


Which is why I'm totally glad Joss Whedon was directing, because I can at least hope he gets the Avengers and who is clearly what. That said he's more of an X-man fan so..... Yeah I'm keeping my fingers crossed but not holding my breathe.

Agreed on Whedon. While I think a lot of things he does is over-represented and praised, one thing the man is unquestionable good at is the ensemble cast. This greatly lessens my worries that the movie will become Iron Man 2.5.

[Raimun]

Avengers look like it would work a lot better than I had expected before seeing any trailers. I'm only concerned about the superpower lottery. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuperpowerLottery)

The team has Iron Man, Thor and Hulk. Not only are they super strong and tough but they all also possess great mobility (flight, jumping).

The team also has three guys and a girl. They are armed with a (super) shield, a bazooka a bow and a pistol, respectively.

So while they are not as hard hitting, they are even more fragile and struggle to reach their opponents... and most important of all, lack the semi-plausible "demanded by plot"-secondary super powers:

"It's a great thing my armor is also acid proof and can obviously hack the acid pool-hatches."

"HULK SMASH WITH EVEN MOAR POWAH!"

"Asgardians can breathe in space."

Perhaps they can portray that you don't need mad super powers to be a hero?