Dual school spells and other things that don't fit

[Deepbluediver]

You may or may not know, but I'm currently working on a rather involved balance fix, and I'm actually learning more about all aspects of the magic system than I ever did while playing.

One thing that came across was a few paragraphs in the PHB II that described something called dual spell schools. Basically, these where spells that did not fit completely in any one school because they seemed to have aspects that could fit multiple concepts. I can tell that this was incredibly popular, because after a grand total of about 4 dual-school spells in the PHB II, it was never again mentioned anywhere else, ever. [/sarcasm]

Currently, I'm kind of reconsidering the concept for a few spells in my fix that don't exactly line up very well with the existing schools. Except rather than do what WotC did and make the concept exclusive, I'm probably going to make it inclusive. This means that a caster with access to either school would be able to cast the spell (and a banned school wouldn't prohibit them) and bonuses to either school of casting would stack.
For example, the Command Undead spell is currently a Necromancy spell. I would probably make it a dual school Enchantment/Necromancy spell instead.

What would be other overall effect on gameplay because of this? Probably not much. In all likelyhood we're talking about no more than a few dozen spells out of several hundred; maybe specialist wizards will be a little less banned. But overal it would make me feel better. I guess what I'm really asking, is if some one can offer a good reason why this will utterly destroy the game balance I am working to achieve, please stop me before I go careening off the cliff.



Second topic: Things that I don't understand.
We'll start with the biggest: healing spells as Conjuration. I confess that I never really understood why this was so, but I didn't do much about it because I didn't really see anywhere else to put it. However, 2 seperate people now have recomended that the line of Cure Wounds spells be moved into the Necromancy school, under the idea that Necromancy is actually life-and-death magic, and so it draws on both negative and positive energy.
I'm probably going to do this, maybe making them dual Necro/Evocation spells, since the arguments I've gotten for either choice make more sense than Conjuration. I haven't decided what to do with the other healing spells; they will likely end up as some combination of Necromany and Transmutation. Regeneration, for example, seems like a good candidate for dual-schoolhood.

I'm gonna keep a running list of other things that confuse me, and what, if anything, I decided to do with them. Feel free to try and explain any of it; I'm fairly accepting to any half-decent rational explanation. Alternatively, help me out and mention the things that YOU don't get, and we can work out a suitable solution together.

Command Undead is a Transmutation spell. I guess it wasn't Enchantment because plant-creatures don't have a brain? I moved it to Enchantment under the concept that anything with enough of a intelligence score to register as a creature has a "mind", which is entirely different from it's actual phisiology.

Disintegrate, also a Transmutation spell. (maybe it's just because I'm working on druid spells atm, but there seems to be a LOT of transmutation spells). I guess it ended up here because it transmutes whatever you target into a small pile of ash? No, actually I suspect it ended up here because WotC thought that no one ever take anything except Evocation spells without having a direct-damage option in every other school, and that they wouldn't figure out that shapeshifting into a beholder was a valid combat tactic.
Hands up, how many people would object if I made this an Evocation spell? And exactly how upset would you be?

[Xechon]

The dual-school thing is viable; while it would make wizards be able to use spells they are not supposed to, this doesn't really matter all that much considering any option they take will be overpowered.

As for Cure and Heal spells being conjuration, I believe it is supposed to represent drawing from the healing force some god or plane, and necromancy and evocation don't seem to fit it much better, although it does act as evocation against necromancy...hmm. It would work, but also go completely against the school archetypes, necromancy being evil, zombies, and debuffs, and evocation nothing but damage. Conjuration, as the primary buff schools, fits better, but when your talking about balance in heal spells you've got a whole new problem anyways. I would take a look at the actual spell before categorizing it.

Command undead is simply necromancy, and doesn't belong anywhere else. I believe that the system runs on the basis of "no brain no problem" with their undead, and while they have an intelligence score...well they either shouldn't, or it should be based on the spellcaster. Enchantment is a control group yes, but D&D sure likes their gaping differences of spells on the living and pseudo-living.

As for disintegrate, my hand is down. If it were to actually transmute to ash, sure, but it deals abstract damage, so it goes to evocation.

Sorry for the walls of text, hope I helped:smallbiggrin:.

[bobthe6th]

As for Cure and Heal spells being conjuration, I believe it is supposed to represent drawing from the healing force some god or plane, and necromancy and evocation don't seem to fit it much better, although it does act as evocation against necromancy...hmm. It would work, but also go completely against the school archetypes, necromancy being evil, zombies, and debuffs, and evocation nothing but damage. Conjuration, as the primary buff schools, fits better, but when your talking about balance in heal spells you've got a whole new problem anyways. I would take a look at the actual spell before categorizing it.

is energy summoning involved(positive energy)?is life manipulation involved(manipulating life energy to heal another)? is summoning matter from somewere involved? my basic argument.

necromancy is the manipulation of life energy(or its negative), black necromancy has been way over emphasized, leading to the idea that it is just zombies and evil. there should be a good bit of the healing spells in it as well.

evocation is chanelling energy or creating energy. the fact it often explodes is secondary, it is energy creation/channeling.

conjurition, may its name be forever damned, is moving stuff from one place to another. not energy, matter. the fact it beat up the magic system and took evocation and necromancies lunch money(really, a blaster is a conjuror currently, and to heal? conjurition, a buff? conjurition, a repacment fighter? conjurition...). It is an over filled school to begin with, and spreading some of the stolen power back to the weakend schools should not be that bad an idea.

sorry, just not going to let that pass...

[erikun]

I seem to recall a number of dual-school (and dual-sphere) spells from AD&D and earlier editions, so it's not so much a new concept as an old concept that they never ran with. I believe the original converastion was in the 3.0 Tome and Blood as well, although they just left it as a DM option rather than making actual dual-school spells.

Re: healing spells as Conjuration
This was a design choice when they changed the game from AD&D to 3e. In AD&D, healing was part of Necromancy, along with all resurrection and similar spells. Necromancy dealt with life forced, both restoring them and manipulating them into undead.

The idea of sticking healing into Evocation also has merit. Evocation is the "summon energy from another plane" school, after all, and thus fits with the concept of D&D 3e healing.

Their reasoning for placing healing on Conjuration was probably based on the logic that summoning angels and healing unicorns was also Conjuration, and thus related.

Regeneration would make sense as Necromancy/Transmutation, as you aren't so much channeling positive energy into the target as granting them a supernatural regeneration ability.

Re: Disintegrate
This was a "Transmutation" spell in AD&D, and so it didn't change in the 3e conversion. And yes, the reason is because it changes a body into ash; the damage is intended to be a small side-effect if the spell failed.

[Xechon]

Is energy summoning involved(positive energy)?is life manipulation involved(manipulating life energy to heal another)? is summoning matter from somewere involved? my basic argument.

Yeah, schools are about general effect, not what is used to achieve that effect.


necromancy is the manipulation of life energy(or its negative), black necromancy has been way over emphasized, leading to the idea that it is just zombies and evil. there should be a good bit of the healing spells in it as well.

evocation is chanelling energy or creating energy. the fact it often explodes is secondary, it is energy creation/channeling.

conjurition, may its name be forever damned, is moving stuff from one place to another. not energy, matter. the fact it beat up the magic system and took evocation and necromancies lunch money(really, a blaster is a conjuror currently, and to heal? conjurition, a buff? conjurition, a repacment fighter? conjurition...). It is an over filled school to begin with, and spreading some of the stolen power back to the weakend schools should not be that bad an idea.

I see necromancy differently, as I am more for classic magic, with a dash of science, but I see your point. I was simply pointing out a possible reason someone would not put healing spells in necromancy, but its up to the OP.

Evocation is not just energy, as fireballs and lightning bolts are matter, albeit both plasmas (just the classic examples). Force spells are just energy, but some of those exist in other schools (I believe, I may have been just playing DDO too much). Matter and energy, according to modern scientists, are the same thing, matter just being compressed and (usually) neutralized energy. So it could go any way, but pure energy is not evocation.

And conjuration sounds like the summoning or creating of matter more than moving it. I would call that telekinesis. However, with either of those, the regular D&D magic mechanics lack enough definition to make them not omni-schooled, at least without limits.

[Kane0]

Pure energy is not evocation.

And conjuration sounds like the summoning or creating of matter more than moving it. I would call that telekinesis. However, with either of those, the regular D&D magic mechanics lack enough definition to make them not omni-schooled, at least without limits.

I have to disagree sorry.
So what would pure energy be? When i read the description for evocation it as either creating and manipulating energy (insert: of all kinds), or tapping it from a pure arcane source to bring forth and manipulate (pure into what he needs, why not keep it pure as well? See my homebrew evocation spells for that.)

Conjure means to bring, call or to make appear. Conjuration as a school is transportation of matter, but creation of matter is strangely rare. Creating energy is evocation, changing matter is transmutation, and bringing matter from somewhere else is conjuration (like acid spells). All the summoning and teleportation spells are conjuration, with creation being a small subschool.

Anyway, my votes are:
- Dual School Spells are all good
- Necromancy used for most healing, like in AD&D. Also gets rid of some of conjuration's unbalance.
- Disintegrate is transmutation. It turns your body into ash.
- Creating matter being combo conjuration/transmutation, or even evocation in there too to take it away from the two 'best' schools.

[Xechon]

So what would pure energy be? When i read the description for evocation it as either creating and manipulating energy (insert: of all kinds), or tapping it from a pure arcane source to bring forth and manipulate (pure into what he needs, why not keep it pure as well? See my homebrew evocation spells for that.)

Sorry, when I say energy, I mean kinetic, thermal, electromagnetic, sonic, chemical, nuclear, etc. Not fire and lightning. Yes, magic does as magic wants, but I approach everything with a scientific view before abstracting. I wont press my case any further, however, as I can see everyone else has a different point of view, and my opinion has, or will be seen.

[bobthe6th]

Its just that, the idea that conjuration can do everything, from teliportation to kill spells to healing, really bugs me. were most stuff is limited to what fits mechanics, conjurition gets what fits thematicly... and that gets a bit silly.

now disintigrate, well it seems to me to be transmutation=changing stuff, and removing the chemical bonds of your body to make ash...well it strikes me as transmutation. but, as I will add in my blaster class, polar ray can be made as a evocation version with boosted power from being a 8th level spell...

[Kane0]

Agreed. Acid spells fit thematicaly within conjuration but really shouldnt functionally, as with healing. If you took those out the balance would be much, mich better

[Deepbluediver]

It would work, but also go completely against the school archetypes, necromancy being evil, zombies, and debuffs, and evocation nothing but damage.
That was my first thought to, I admit. But I frequently take the position that fluff should come second to mechanics, and if we improve balance by making the game a little less cliché, I don't have an issue with that.


Command undead is simply necromancy, and doesn't belong anywhere else. I believe that the system runs on the basis of "no brain no problem" with their undead, and while they have an intelligence score...well they either shouldn't, or it should be based on the spellcaster. Enchantment is a control group yes, but D&D sure likes their gaping differences of spells on the living and pseudo-living.

The spell Command already specifies that it targets a living creature, so this is obviously a different enchantment spell tailored to affect undead instead. If you prefer, I can change it to "Command Unliving", and have it affect constructs, too.
Frankly, I think any spell that grants a measure of mental control over other creatures strongly favors inclusion in the Enchantment school. Changing what school a spell is in just because of what it is tangentially related too or denying it to a school because of it's end-effect instead of basing the decision on what it actually does is how we ended up with some of these lopsided shenanigans in the first place.
For example, Command Plants is a TRANSMUTATION spell under the RAW, despite the fact that it is clearly a mental-type affect targeting plant creatures.


now disintigrate, well it seems to me to be transmutation=changing stuff, and removing the chemical bonds of your body to make ash...well it strikes me as transmutation.
I could sort of understand where you are coming from, except for the way the spell is described as functioning. It's a ray-type effect, so you are shooting something at your target. Also, the spell description puts the damage first, and only if the target is reduced to 0 hit points does it turn to ash. For the moment though, I'd be willing to consider it as a dual Trans/Evo spell.

[JoshuaZ]

I can tell that this was incredibly popular, because after a grand total of about 4 dual-school spells in the PHB II, it was never again mentioned anywhere else, ever.

Actually a few other books have some. Dragon Magic has some additional dual school spells.

[Pyromancer999]

conjurition, may its name be forever damned, is moving stuff from one place to another. not energy, matter. the fact it beat up the magic system and took evocation and necromancies lunch money(really, a blaster is a conjuror currently, and to heal? conjurition, a buff? conjurition, a repacment fighter? conjurition...). It is an over filled school to begin with, and spreading some of the stolen power back to the weakend schools should not be that bad an idea.

sorry, just not going to let that pass...

....It's spelled conjuration, or conjurition if spelling forever be damned. It's an overall good school. That said, conjuration does steal some of evocation's gigs, and the healing ones should really just be transmutation. Makes sense, as it transforms the body so it can heal wounds. Theoretically, anyways.

[Deepbluediver]

Actually a few other books have some. Dragon Magic has some additional dual school spells.
Hmm...so it does. If you know of any other splatbooks that include a significant number of dual-school spells please let me know, I'd love to look them up.

Now, regarding the actual spells...I think most of them are terrible (in terms of both balance and dual-spell mechanics).

I counted 7 spells, of which 4 are evocation/transmutation, and all of those plus a couple of the rest don't really seem like spell with a single overlapping or hard-to-clasify effect. They're pretty much all 2 entirely seperate effects in one spell; usually 1 effect that makes the caster harder to hit, and a second that lets them deal damage in come way. Spells like that are something I could see as being good for a hybrid class or dragon-related race, but they're not the kind of thing you want to be handing out to wizards, sorcerers, and druids.
I saw only one spell that I would consider a good candidate for dual-schoolism: Rot of Ages, which still seems to be mostly conjuration, but apparently there's some unwritten rule that everything even the slightest bit dark or creepy needs to involve necromancy in some way.


It's an overall good school.
Yes...most people think it's actually too good. I'm trying to spread things out a little, so that in terms of game balance not every wizard feels the need to take the same 3 schools, since anything else would be a waste.


That said, conjuration does steal some of evocation's gigs, and the healing ones should really just be transmutation. Makes sense, as it transforms the body so it can heal wounds. Theoretically, anyways.
That doesn't really make sense to me, unless you consider the body healing faster than normal to be a transmutation effect. In my mind, in order to qualify as a transmutation spell, the purpose of the spell needs to be that it changes something about the target at the caster's direction; that's why I mentioned something like regenerate. Anthing that changes the form or function of a spell secondary an other effect is just that; secondary. Otherwise I could claim that a Fireball spell "transmutes" my target into smoldering chunks.