looking for a fix to the assassin

[Kol Korran]

one of my players has informed me he wants to play the assassin PRC in the next campaign. i looked it over and i have issues with 3 matters:

1) the alignment restriction which i'm going to waver.

2) the death attack is basically a "save or die" ability usable about 1/ encounter unless the party is surprised or they don't let the assassin sneak up ahead. with invisibility and the like the assassin may even use he ability in these circumstances. this may be a special problem with "boss opponents", but i worry less about this. a nicely prepared caster has often neutrelized such opponents without having to wait 3 rounds. still, i'm worried.

3) The save DC begins as fairly low, but scales up quite fast. i'm not sure if it's laughable at low levels, a real threat at high levels, or something in between. should i fix this or not?

i tried looking for an assassin fix on these boards, but my search- fu is probably weak. anyone knows of a possible fix or has suggestions from actual play or game analasys as to how to settle these issues?

thanks in advance,
Kol.

(search word: piratewitch )

[nyarlathotep]

The assassin is usable as is but you need to understand something about it. The death attack is only really for sneaky missions, story related assassinations, and first round surprises. Once combat has begun there is no point to it, you instead focus on the various very nice spells it give you to compliment the natural sneak attack focused combat you've already been doing since you likely started as a rogue. Just make sure he has access to the spell compendium at least for spells.

[eggs]

The Assassin doesn't usually get fixes because it doesn't really need them. Despite the hype, Death Attack is probably the class's least notable ability. Probably even after Forgery as a class skill.

If you want to boost it at low levels, it wouldn't be off base to set it at 10+1/2 HD+Int, which would scale closer to the lines of spells and other base class abilities. The only danger would be turning Assassin into a dip, but that's still a pretty weak ability to dip for, and Assassin has a lot going for it on its own (casting, sneak attack, the lesser version of HiPS).

If you really want to make it a more notable class feature and to keep the draw of additional Assassin levels, you could reduce the observation time with level, dropping it by 1 round at levels 4 and 7, and making it triggerable as a Swift action at level 10 (it might be silly, but it has a lot of limitations of its own, and Clerics were tossing Slay Living 6 levels earlier... maybe make it Int/day without observation if at-will seems like too much).

[candycorn]

Personally, I'd scrap the death attack altogether, and replace it with:

Deadly Strike: An assassin may apply sneak attack damage even to targets normally immune to sneak attack damage (this does not extend to other forms of precision damage).

Augmented Critical: A level 5 Assassin is capable of dealing critical hit damage even to targets normally immune to extra damage from critical hits.

Supreme Critical: When a level 10 Assassin attacks a target that is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, increase the critical multiplier for that attack by 2.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

the best part about Assassin is the spells. remember, if its on your spell list, you can cast it fro ma wand or scroll even if you aren't a high enough level to actually cast it yet. Also, Assassin got a lot of love in various splatbooks. their spell list is quite good by now actually.

[FMArthur]

The alignment and purposeless murder restrictions are dumb and you're on the right track waiving them. Just don't waver on the issue and you'll be fine. :smallwink:

Death Attack is nothing to worry about. Enemies with good fortitude saves, equipment and spells that negates Sneak Attacks or death effects, magical detection (he has to creep up and make a melee Sneak Attack if he wants to start an encounter with a Death Attack), etc all make it pretty difficult to actually pull off for the assassin without the DM adjusting encounters for it at all. A well-protected boss encounter could have no problem preventing that first attack from reaching the boss and the boss should have a high chance of success against the effect regardless. Not many creatures actually make good boss fights by themselves to begin with, and the ones that are made to go solo can usually look after themselves against Death Attacks in various ways.

If it works sometimes, well, that's good. That's the character's style and he put resources into getting the ability. Your players will enjoy success via tactical expertise just as much or more than winning via direct combat, so don't get too hung up on it if you were revving for a traditional engagement. They're having fun. The boss's own reinforcements can provide enough of a combat for the rest of the characters to engage in while the players pat themselves on the back for securing their great tactical advantage preemptively.

Really, don't overestimate the Death Attack's value. I myself had to tailor encounters down for one campaign just to let an assassin stubbornly Death Attacking have some fun, because the ability just kind of sucks.

[Particle_Man]

Yeah, when you look at the monsters with high fort saves, death attack is not going to work that often against CR equivalent creatures.

Then again, assassins are presumably people who kill people for a living. Those that kill monsters for a living are called . . . adventurers.

But what people do they kill? Commoners seem too . . . common to be targets people would pay a lot of money to kill (why hire an assassin when any warrior will do?). Spellcasters would be a good possibility with the low forts, but often have magical protections. Warriors, Fighters and Monks have great fort saves. Rogues are hard to sneak up on (and have uncanny dodge, so again, the CR equivalent thing gets in the way fast).

So the assassin's target group is mainly Experts and Aristocrats (and maybe some uppity Commoners), I would assume. They would have a good shot at some Aberrations, Fey, Monstrous Humanoids, some Humanoids (though probably the latter are subject to the same class restrictions as above). Again, spell-like abilities, etc. can interfere - but if you can out-think a mind flayer to set up a death attack, more power to you!

What improves the Death Attack DC? Well, more assassin levels (and there are likely some other classes whose Death attack would stack, with an understanding DM), int-boosting items (int-boosting anything, really), the Assassin's Dagger, maybe Ability Focus from the MM if your DM is nice?

[JadePhoenix]

Assassin is decent, no need to fix it.

[hex0]

Psychic Assassin (online) is bit bit better in my opinion, as it gets similiar abilities and also special abilities like Mind Cripple that stay relevent even after the death attack is dealt.

Though I don't know your opinion on Psionics.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The problem is that Pyschic Assassin needs ML 5 to enter (a 1 level dip into any psionic class, Psy war for feats and a bump in hd, psionic rogue for sneak attack and skills, psion for a psycrystal and some extra PP) and Practiced Manifester cover you.

[hex0]

The problem is that Pyschic Assassin needs ML 5 to enter (a 1 level dip into any psionic class, Psy war for feats and a bump in hd, psionic rogue for sneak attack and skills, psion for a psycrystal and some extra PP) and Practiced Manifester cover you.

Factotum 3/Psychic Rogue 2 with practiced manifester as the third level feat works wonders.

[FMArthur]

I don't think there's much point in taking a partial caster like Psychic Rogue and putting it into a partial progression prestige class like Psychic Assassin, especially when Psychic Assassin grants the use of the Psychic Rogue's power list to any entrant on its own. You'd get more PP and a lot more useful powers out of being a Psion instead and you'd progress it as fast as regular Psychic Rogue levels would in place of Psychic Assassin.

[hex0]

I don't think there's much point in taking a partial caster like Psychic Rogue and putting it into a partial progression prestige class like Psychic Assassin, especially when Psychic Assassin grants the use of the Psychic Rogue's power list to any entrant on its own. You'd get more PP and a lot more useful powers out of being a Psion instead and you'd progress it as fast as regular Psychic Rogue levels would in place of Psychic Assassin.

Though Psychic Rogue is the only psionic class (other than the inferior Lurk) that has the skill requirements for Psychic Assassin.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you are just after the Assassin abilities it works really nice; but true if you are going more for a skillful gish type of character I agree Psion (particularly Nomads or egoist) work much better.

[Kol Korran]

hhmmmmm... i didn't realize the Death attack was actually ok. i was worried it is over powered or under powered. but the consensus seems to deem it weak- decent.

i'll try to play it as it is i think.

thanks for all who answered, you helped me greatly. :smallsmile:

[FMArthur]

Though Psychic Rogue is the only psionic class (other than the inferior Lurk) that has the skill requirements for Psychic Assassin.

Yeah but in your example the Factotum levels cover that up. If you're just going to have 2 levels in one psionic class before putting its progression on something else, Psion all the way.

[hex0]

Psion all the way.

Psion doesn't have hide or move silently. You'd have to go Factotum 3/Psion 4 in your example.

You could burn feats/levels to get them as permanent class skills, but I still hold a 2 dip into Psychic Rogue gets you Evasion and a die of Sneak Attack.

[FMArthur]

Psion doesn't have hide or move silently. You'd have to go Factotum 3/Psion 4 in your example.

You could burn feats/levels to get them as permanent class skills, but I still hold a 2 dip into Psychic Rogue gets you Evasion and a die of Sneak Attack.

If a skill is in-class for one of your classes, its maximum is your total character level +3. You just have to spend twice the ranks to increase them when you take levels in classes where they would be cross-class.

A Factotum 3 would have Disguise 4, Hide 6, Move Silently 6.
The next level, the psion could spend 4 skill points to increase Hide and Move Silently by 1 each, to 7 and 7. The level afterward, he could do it again to increase them to 8.

Regardless, that's not efficient so it's not how I'd even arrange the build anyway; I was thinking of the Factotum 3/Psion 2 as shorthand. In a game, I'd do it Factotum 1/Psion 2/Factotum 2. That way you can choose to only increase those skills on Factotum levels.

[danzibr]

Once combat has begun there is no point to it, you instead focus on the various very nice spells it give you to compliment the natural sneak attack focused combat you've already been doing since you likely started as a rogue.
They're very kind spells (sorry, I had to do it).

Yeah, the psionic Assassin variant is pretty cool, but... as far as how to fix it, I'd agree with both the people that say it's alright and candycorn. You don't need to fix it, but if you want to, go the candycorn way.

[Averis Vol]

don't know if its too late but theres a neat retool here http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231125. it enhances just about everything and even makes poison worth while.

[ericgrau]

1) Yeup ditch the alignment restriction to let him in a good party.

Mainly the class gets sneak attack advancement with some minor things that are at least as good as what the rogue gets. If the party plays with straight rogues I don't see any need to beef up the assassin. Otherwise pick your flavor of changed assassin.

2&3) Death attack likewise isn't that special but even if it fails he still gets sneak attack as normal so it's no loss. In rare situations the player might get a lucky roll and nuke a major foe. It's rare, so let him. Three ways around this for the BBEG: First let the player play with the character a bit and he'll realize not to try to death attack major foes, especially not major melee. Second have henchmen blocking the way. Third at very high levels any respectable BBEG should look into anti-teleportation, anti-scrying, remove X and, yes, anti-death effect. For death effects there's the scarab of protection. For remove X (includling remove paralysis) there's a cleric henchman, for example, or any ally with potions.

[hex0]

If a skill is in-class for one of your classes, its maximum is your total character level +3. You just have to spend twice the ranks to increase them when you take levels in classes where they would be cross-class.

A Factotum 3 would have Disguise 4, Hide 6, Move Silently 6.
The next level, the psion could spend 4 skill points to increase Hide and Move Silently by 1 each, to 7 and 7. The level afterward, he could do it again to increase them to 8.

Regardless, that's not efficient so it's not how I'd even arrange the build anyway; I was thinking of the Factotum 3/Psion 2 as shorthand. In a game, I'd do it Factotum 1/Psion 2/Factotum 2. That way you can choose to only increase those skills on Factotum levels.

You can only spend half ranks in cross class skills regardless of what your previous classes are if they are maxed out.

[FMArthur]

Buying ranks a 1/2 rank at a time doesn't change the fact that you can still buy multiple 1/2 ranks. The Psion can buy 1 full rank of a cross-class skill by spending 2 skill points on it at level-up.

And if any of your classes has a skill in-class, that skill's maximum is always your character level + 3.

What aren't you getting here? I also provided an example of a build that entirely circumvents the need to buy the ranks cross-class if you don't understand the process. :smallconfused:

[JadePhoenix]

You can only spend half ranks in cross class skills regardless of what your previous classes are if they are maxed out.

No, that's the 3.0 rules

[hex0]

No, that's the 3.0 rules

I was wondering where the confusion came from...Thanks :smalltongue:

[Big Fau]

THe only major things I'd fix are making the class less bland with some actually decent class features and making the Spellcasting similar to the Duskblade's.

[hex0]

THe only major things I'd fix are making the class less bland with some actually decent class features and making the Spellcasting similar to the Duskblade's.

It is already Int based spontaneous, but I suppose 0 level spells and maybe 5th level spells starting at level 8 would work. Though that might be a bit much.

[gomipile]

If you are waiving the alignment restriction, you might want to add all of the Magic Circle Against X spells to the Assassin's spell list as level 3 spells.