How can they all be dead? Logic problem...

[pita]

Big Black Dragon and Woman With Fetish have three kids. Those kids each have a few kids, one of which is Girard, who is the head of the Draketooth clan, and is either Dragonborn or Draconic, depending what template/race the fictional DM is using.
He has four children with Mystery Woman A. Each of those has a certain amount of children with Mystery Spouses B-E, at least (assuming they only have children with one person). Those children have their own spouses by now, if my grasp of the OOTS timeline is correct (Shojo was old enough to be a grandfather, an adult was his nephew, and his uncle was Soon, so I doubt it would be wrong, though I might be misremembering the Kim family tree).
Now, these spouses are not part of the direct bloodline, so Familicide wouldn't work on them. I doubt Girard didn't allow spouses into the compound. Even assuming his spouse has died of old age, shouldn't there be at least four elders around the place, and very probably younger adults?

There are three theories I can think of to account for this, but none seem likely.
1. Squick. Major squick. I'm not giving this theory any thought because of the squick. Also, the family tree would make it problematic as the children don't have any crossed lines between them. Dammit, I just gave it some thought. I guess they would lie about it to their father, but that makes it somehow even worse. If Rich goes with this, I would be incredibly disturbed. It's worse than Jaime and Cersei.
2. The family members ran off in terror once all of their spouses dropped dead at a family lunch, officially making it the Worst Get Together Ever. Unlikely in my opinion, simply because they might've left one spellcaster to alert the others, or cleaned up a little. Done something, left some form of message or trap for people, because at the end of the day, they are guarding against the end of existence.
3. The definition we have of Familicide is wrong, or simplified, killing also spouses. Actually somewhat likely... I dunno. Could be. Makes sense for the spell to work that way, but it would be somewhat more infinite in its effect, because then it would kill the families of the spouses, and those families' spouses, and it makes it kind of more of an extinction spell than it is. Would like clarification from The Giant on this one. I also include in this the fact that Girard may have been paranoid enough that he would only allow his own blood into the compound. Both of these theories fall under "My Premise is Flawed", anyhoo, so they're under the same header.
EDIT - Just read Girard's Wiki page... Apparently Orrin had a child with Tarquin's wife and took the child. It would be funny if the actual explanation for the dilemma is that the Draketooth clan all operate like that, but it seems impractical, so I'm not going to add it as an option... Would be funny, though

[Morty]

It's highly unlikely anyone in the building isn't a Draketooth by birth. If Orrin is any indication, it's likely that the clan was kept up by its members leaving the compound, finding a person to have kids with, then running away with the kids, or possibly right after becoming pregnant in case of the women. It's only impractical if you're not completely paranoid... which Girard is/was.
Also, anyone related to a Draketooth was targeted by Familicide - so a non-Draketooth mother of a Draketooth's child would be targeted due to her blood relation with the child, which is most likely what happened to Penelope.

[Moogleking]

1. Draketooth is in bloodline.
2. Draketooth has child with someone not of the blood line (I sincerely hope...)
3. That child is a Draketooth and, hence, in the bloodline.
4. The non-Draketooth parent is a blood relative of the child, and is fairgame for Familicide.

[pita]

It's highly unlikely anyone in the building isn't a Draketooth by birth. If Orrin is any indication, it's likely that the clan was kept up by its members leaving the compound, finding a person to have kids with, then running away with the kids, or possibly right after becoming pregnant in case of the women. It's only impractical if you're not completely paranoid... which Girard is/was.
Also, anyone related to a Draketooth was targeted by Familicide - so a non-Draketooth mother of a Draketooth's child would be targeted due to her blood relation with the child, which is most likely what happened to Penelope.
The second part makes more sense than the first, especially since Girard is either dead or a statue, and thus has kind of lost control over the family. There still should have been a couple who were trying for a baby, or were only pregnant (leading to the question of whether familicide works with pregnancies as well, and making an already disturbing spell doubly so).

[Morty]

The second part is not mutually exclusive with the first part. We have no idea about Girdard's status when V cast Familicide, but there's no reason to believe the clan wouldn't keep up his method after his death. Like I said - for all we know, the Draketooth clan kept itself going using the method Orrin used, which explains why there were only the memers of the family in the pyramid.

[Ron Miel]

Big Black Dragon and Woman With Fetish have three kids. Those kids each have a few kids, one of which is Girard, who is the head of the Draketooth clan,

I don't think that's certain.



if my grasp of the OOTS timeline is correct (Shojo was old enough to be a grandfather, an adult was his nephew, and his uncle was Soon, so I doubt it would be wrong, though I might be misremembering the Kim family tree).

Shojo and Soon were not in the same family.




Now, these spouses are not part of the direct bloodline, so Familicide wouldn't work on them. I doubt Girard didn't allow spouses into the compound. Even assuming his spouse has died of old age, shouldn't there be at least four elders around the place, and very probably younger adults?


You are forgetting the definition of familicide :


1) Every living creature that shares your bloodline is dead.
2) Every living creature that is directly related to any of those those creatures is also dead.


So, Girard and his children are killed by clause 1. Clause 2 kills anyone directly related to Girard's children, i.e. their mother.

[Kish]

I doubt Girard didn't allow spouses into the compound.
Why do you doubt that? Given that in the one case we know of, a Draketooth stayed with a spouse just long enough to reproduce before kidnapping his new child and disappearing?

...And your edit acknowledged this (picking it up from the wiki instead of from the comic :smallconfused:), but just said it "seems impractical" that that's standard operating procedure.

[irenicObserver]

My first question is wasn't there already a thread like this? :smallconfused:
EDIT - Just read Girard's Wiki page... Apparently Orrin had a child with Tarquin's wife and took the child. It would be funny if the actual explanation for the dilemma is that the Draketooth clan all operate like that, but it seems impractical, so I'm not going to add it as an option... Would be funny, though

You didn't have to read his page, it was already stated in the comic what Orrin did. It is very likely this is how the Draketooth clan acts, since Girard was extremely paranoid. It's like if Haley's father did what Soon did.
Also, anyone related to a Draketooth was targeted by Familicide - so a non-Draketooth mother of a Draketooth's child would be targeted due to her blood relation with the child, which is most likely what happened to Penelope.

Most likely, but still not proven. I'm holding out for something unrelated because someone dropping dead without marks, with witnesses seeing a bolt of arcane energy run through them could be a point of suspicion, hell it could very well be a plot point of whether or not Tarquin has any suspicions or knowledge about how she died.

Or she just died from something unrelated which I'm willing to hold out on in spite of logic (never heard of it :smalltongue:).

[Ron Miel]

(leading to the question of whether familicide works with pregnancies as well,

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html

It's shown to kill unhatched eggs. So probably pregnancies too.

And maybe Draketooth women lay eggs.

[irenicObserver]

My problem is that I'm not really sure what you are asking. Maybe you should have lead with a direct question first. What I'm seeing is you wondering how everyone is dead, well the simple conclusion is that the Draketooth clan lives only with Draketooth family, they leave to propogate and bring the offspring back to raise, no spouses, probably because of bloodline. How hard is that to get?

[Shadowknight12]

It would kill the spouses too, via the child, just like it presumably killed Penelope.

Familicide goes Draketooth --> Child --> Spouse --> Spouse's family.

It's convenient to think of it as a very finicky and fastidious Chain Lightning spell.

[Ron Miel]

Familicide goes Draketooth --> Child --> Spouse --> Spouse's family.

I think "spouse's family" is one step too far.

[Shadowknight12]

I think "spouse's family" is one step too far.

Nope. That's exactly what the spell says. "Affects everyone directly related to the target and then everyone directly related to them." I wouldn't be surprised if Penelope's family was dead, too. In fact, the only thing that saved Tarquin, Nale and Elan was Tarquin not having any children with her.

It was also fortunate that the Draketooths were such a clannish, secluded family, or else it's quite possible that such a spell would've killed significant portions of the world's population. It would've been the OotS equivalent of the Black Plague.

[pita]

I guess I'm wrong. Apologies.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I think "spouse's family" is one step too far.

I believe so as well. But ya, we've been given specific example of how the Draketooth's operate. Simply put, have a kid, steal the kid and the money, leave the other parent behind. I honestly don't understand how its impractical. No more impractical than any other gate defence we've seen.

[jere7my]

Nope. That's exactly what the spell says. "Affects everyone directly related to the target and then everyone directly related to them." I wouldn't be surprised if Penelope's family was dead, too. In fact, the only thing that saved Tarquin, Nale and Elan was Tarquin not having any children with her.

The wording is different for the two stages. First it's "everyone who directly shares your bloodline," then it's "everyone directly related to them." It's certainly a possible interpretation that stage 2 is a single step.

[Nidhögg]

Nope. That's exactly what the spell says. "Affects everyone directly related to the target and then everyone directly related to them." I wouldn't be surprised if Penelope's family was dead, too. In fact, the only thing that saved Tarquin, Nale and Elan was Tarquin not having any children with her.

It was also fortunate that the Draketooths were such a clannish, secluded family, or else it's quite possible that such a spell would've killed significant portions of the world's population. It would've been the OotS equivalent of the Black Plague.

Nope.
"Every living creature that directly shares your bloodline is dead."
"Evey living creature that is directly related to any of those creatures is also dead."
("Those" in the second sentence refering to the victims of the first sentence.)

This is ofc a matter of semantics, what does "bloodline" and "directly related" mean.
Since different phrasings is used in the two sentences, this is probably significant.

But to me it means:"Any blood relative alive, no matter how distant, to ABD is dead. Then it also kills anyone who parented (if that's a word) any of those but not blood relatives of ABD, just to tidy things off. But it stops there."
This would mean Penelope, but not any of Penelope's relatives, since they aren't DIRECTLY related to the ADB bloodline. At least not to my understanding of the phrase "directly related".

This is at least how I interpret this horrific spell. :)

[BaronOfHell]

In fact, the only thing that saved Tarquin, Nale and Elan was Tarquin not having any children with her.
Tarquin would not be related to Orrin's child if he had a child of his own with Penelope.

Beside, the whole familicide thing can still be a red herring(?). There are according to V 75% black dragon origin of which any part could have begun the clan. We don't know if Penelope is still alive, we only know she had a funeral, which could have been an empty casket. Did anyone btw. ever thought about how strange familicide was as a spell as mean of avoiding getting targeted? Families have physical limits, while friendships can be theoretically infinite. On the same token, friendship can have stronger bonds than family in a world of such adventure groups. Let's just take Eugene and the blood oath as an example, Eugene weren't in family with Fyron, yet he cared enough to make it personal (at least for a short time). Which lead to Roy. So even if Xykon had applied familicide on Fyron, he'd be no better off, most likely.

I do however agree, that it's likely Penelope's family were affected too. However any spouses in this family were not (Tarquin, etc.), because that's going one step too far than how V described the spell effect.

[pita]

Can someone close this thread? It's becoming a duplicate of the Familicide thread.

[Tokiko Mima]

Based on the chart, I kind of assumed that half-dragons reproduced asexually. Perhaps eggs are involved? They could have a different method than either of their two progenitor races. It's really hard to tell, except I know that a lot of magic has to be involved to combine primate DNA and elemental lizard DNA. We might need a whole side panel on the subject of What to Expect when you're Expecting a Child with a Breath Weapon.

[Shadowknight12]

Well, I still stand by what I said. It's what makes the most sense to me. I don't really want to argue semantics ad aeternum, so let's just all have our interpretations in peace, mkay?

[ref]

That means if you had a child with an ABD-Bloodliner, but the child died of other causes before Familicide, then you're safe.

[Shadowknight12]

That means if you had a child with an ABD-Bloodliner, but the child died of other causes before Familicide, then you're safe.

I think that'd be the case, yes.

[BaronOfHell]

That means if you had a child with an ABD-Bloodliner, but the child died of other causes before Familicide, then you're safe.

Why is that? You're still related to the child and the child is still part of the same bloodline.

[ref]

Because Clause 1 only affects living creatures, and Clause 2 only affects those directly related to those affected by Clause 1.

[BaronOfHell]

After re-reading what V said in 639 I guess you're right. My bad.

[The Giant]

We already have a mega-thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234374) for these discussions.

Thread locked.