The Vow of Poverty Party

[Particle_Man]

Yes, yes I know, Vow of Poverty is a trap, etc., etc.

But, if you have a party of 4-5 characters, could one still adequately fill the roles of a typical D&D party if every member took Vow of Poverty (if leadership and the like is involved, assume cohorts/followers etc. take Vow of Poverty too).

For parameters lets say you have access to all the published hardcovers by Wotc that are not campaign-specific (so no Forgotten Realms, Eberron, or other specific stuff).

I am thinking one could go fairly far with a druid and an incarnate for starters.

[Psyren]

With psionics, incarnum, druidism and other non-item-dependent systems, you can function just fine with VoP. You'll definitely be less effective than characters with money, but you'll be able to get by.

[HunterOfJello]

Make it gestalt and have everyone take Totemist or Incarnate for half their gestalt.

Get the party cleric and/or Paladin to take levels in Bone Knight in order to get the nice built-in armor and

[Kaeso]

The vow of poverty party*
*I assume spell components are ignored, or everybody still gets their spell component pouch without breaking their vow

Beatstick/Tank:
-Warblades mostly rely on manouvres for their damage output so they can manage without magic weapons. Their AC will be a problem though, despite the boost to it VoP gives.
-Crusaders are the same except they have a lower damage output but can more or less heal themselves and are actually built around taking damage and returning it with interest. You can still make a lockdown build with a longspear and improved unarmed attack.
-Druids are bear summoning, bear riding bears. They have no need for armor.
-Clerics/Favoured Soul. Take magic vestement (clothes count as +0 armor), shield of faith, ice axe and a few buff spells and you're better than a fighter without VoP. Take intiuitive attack for SAD.

Skillmonkey:
-Beguiler. First of all they get mage armor, secondly they're not supposed to be in the front lines in the first place. Their ability to cast in light armor is sadly left unused, but they don't lose a lot of their use through it.
-Swordsage. A great secondary melee class that gets its wisdom to AC. Take the unarmed variant to lose your unused light armor proficiency and gain a monks unarmed strike progression.
-Cloistered cleric. With the right spells, domains and feats a cleric makes a decent skillmonkey. Trade knowledge domain for knowledge devotion, take either intiuitive attack or zen archery and you're a pretty good damage dealer too.

Healer:
The earlier named druid, favoured soul and cleric can do this as their secondary function.

Caster:
Cleric, druid, wizard, sorcerer, favoured soul. Their spell lists contain enough goodies that can be used to both buff, debuff, control the field of battle and deal damage.

Note that the cleric is named in all four functions. An all-cleric party would make a pretty good VoP party, and from a fluff point of view it makes sense (since many real world religious orders, such as the Franciscaners, forsake worldly possessions). Ideally, that party would look something like this:

Beatstick: Cleric/Crusader/Ruby Knight Windicator
Skill monkey: Cloistered Cleric (with the trickery domain)
Healer: (Cloistered) Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor
Caster: Cloistered Cleric (with the spell and/or magic domain)/*insert cheesy cleric PrC here*
Technically all members of this party are able to fullfil all party roles, yet they all have their specialisations. This means that, despite their party roles, the party members can adapt to the situation. If they face enemies with high spell resistance, the healer and caster use a few of their buff spells and engage in melee. If the enemy has an incane AC, the Beatstick and skillmonkey can focus on blasting and debuffing. They won't be as good at it as the specialists in their party, but at least they wont stand around doing nothing.

[gbprime]

Remember that vow of poverty still allows you to use simple weapons. So you can still buff party member weapons with spells, and some ranged attack builds are still doable. Two-weapon Lightning Mace builds, Three Mountains builds, javelin chucking ranger builds, etc. nothing high op, but a decent build nonetheless.

Most spellcasters work well with vow of poverty too, they just have to watch the material components. Eschew Materials expands the available spells nicely, and clerics have the advantage with a simple divine focus. And classes like warlock, Druid, and dragon shaman aren't slowed down by the vow much at all.

[Psyren]

Druid's divine foci are fine with VoP - they use berries, pools of water, sprigs of holly etc.

Clerics, Paladins etc. on the other hand - their holy symbols have a gp cost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#holySymbolSilverorWooden) and so would be difficult to use with VoP. This drawback is intended. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a) But the Worldly Focus feat gets you around that problem with ease.

[Kaeso]

Druid's divine foci are fine with VoP - they use berries, pools of water, sprigs of holly etc.

Clerics, Paladins etc. on the other hand - their holy symbols have a gp cost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#holySymbolSilverorWooden) and so would be difficult to use with VoP. This drawback is intended. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a) But the Worldly Focus feat gets you around that problem with ease.

Aren't holy symbols merely used to turn undead? A cleric can easily spend his TU uses on better things (devotion feats or divine metamagic), and thus get by without owning one. Nevertheless, it's weird that not even a simple, wooden holy symbol is allowed under VoP. A cleric could easily carve one of those out of wood with a knife (simple weapon, allowed under VoP), so why isn't he allowed to keep it?

[Eldariel]

Druid, Cleric, Sorcerer, Druid. Sorcerer has Eschew Materials so he only misses out on a few spells; Shapechange is a big loss but under 18 he's more than fine. Druids are obviously fine and Cleric; Worldly Focus or Summon Holy Symbol both work.

[Psyren]

Aren't holy symbols merely used to turn undead?

Not by RAW:


A cleric or paladin uses it as the focus for his spells and as a tool for turning undead.

You need a way of getting around that (like the ways Eldariel proposed) to be a VoP Cleric effectively. And again, the article indicates that restriction was intended.

[Amphetryon]

Totem Rager, Druid, Psion, & Swordsage could function more than adequately as a party, filling the Tank/Healer/Arcanist/Skillmonkey roles, respectively, with some overlap. You can do BETTER without VOP, but you knew that.

[Flickerdart]

Psychic Warriors can call magical weapons, and Kensais and Psychic Weapon Masters can both create magic weapons using their brains.

[Kaeso]

Not by RAW:



You need a way of getting around that (like the ways Eldariel proposed) to be a VoP Cleric effectively. And again, the article indicates that restriction was intended.

Good point. Still, I don't get why a cleric isn't allowed to carve his own holy symbol, since wooden holy symbols are available, VoP characters are allowed to possess knives and they'd know what the holy symbol of their temple looks like. Wood, of course, is widely available in the wilderness. The total cost of making such a symbol would be absolutely 0.

[Psyren]

The value of a wooden holy symbol is 1gp. The implication is that one of lesser value/craftsmanship would not function.

But beyond that, the Vow's prohibition is on "owning or using material possessions" (save for a specific and limited list) - not merely buying them. Carving your own HS would still violate it as written, because it is a possession, and not on the allowed list.

I'm all for modifying the Vow myself - I'm just pointing out the problems it has by default.

[SaintRidley]

Aren't their rules for tattooed holy symbols somewhere? Tattoo or carve it into the palm of your hand. Permanent access unless someone goes all Kas on you in that case.


Also, depends on the DM. One of my friends has told me he would not allow me a sprig of holly and mistletoe for a Druid with VoP.

So, you know, check if your DM's going to be a jerk about it.

[Psyren]

That's weird. What would he allow for a Druid? There aren't any "druid holy symbols" after all, except maybe in FR where Druids have to worship deities too.

[SaintRidley]

That's weird. What would he allow for a Druid? There aren't any "druid holy symbols" after all, except maybe in FR where Druids have to worship deities too.

He wouldn't allow a holy symbol. Full stop.

I'm pretty sure its his way of trying to smack down the T1 divine casters, but it seems silly when applied to the druid.

[Talya]

The vow of poverty party*
*I assume spell components are ignored, or everybody still gets their spell component pouch without breaking their vow



By RAW, this is already the case. Spell component pouches and their contents are explicitly allowed by VOP. Sadly, they forgot to mention holy symbols and spellbooks, causing much silliness on discussion forums.

[Jack_Simth]

That's weird. What would he allow for a Druid? There aren't any "druid holy symbols" after all, except maybe in FR where Druids have to worship deities too.
The Druid's Divine Focus is still an item, and is not on the list of permitted items. It may be silly that a possession worth nothing is forbidden by the Vow of Poverty, but it's the way it's written.

It's also silly that there's no restriction on how many simple weapons a Vow of Poverty character can have - a thousand normal heavy crossbows, net worth 50,000 gp, is fine, by RAW. Most homebrew fixes put in an exception of some kind - setting it to a value limit of around 50-100 gp in mundane items.

[Talya]

It's also silly that there's no restriction on how many simple weapons a Vow of Poverty character can have

Wow, I for some reason always read that as "carry a simple weapon" not "carry simple weapons." This gives me more options...

[Particle_Man]

Good point. Still, I don't get why a cleric isn't allowed to carve his own holy symbol, since wooden holy symbols are available, VoP characters are allowed to possess knives and they'd know what the holy symbol of their temple looks like. Wood, of course, is widely available in the wilderness. The total cost of making such a symbol would be absolutely 0.

The trouble is that line of reasoning allows one to also make one's own mighty (+4) composite long bow and arrows. Technically the cleric holy symbol has a cost (and a cost to create using the craft skill) even in wooden form. Also, it is only used with cleric spells that specifically have Divine Focus as a material component, so perhaps a careful cleric could still function (and use the turn undead stuff for something else, since they could not actually turn undead, technically speaking).

What book is the feat Worldly Focus in, by the way?

And yeah, wizards would be hosed. They might get by with multiple feats of spell mastery but it is probably safe to say they would no longer be Tier 1 if they went that route. And if they started with Vow of Poverty they wouldn't have the ability to regain any spells except read magic until level 3! Just imagine if you start the game with colour spray prepared but can only cast it *once* for your first two levels! :smalleek:

[Hitaro9]

Or, you could have everyone but one person take vow of poverty, and that one person get 5x normal loot. =p

[Jack_Simth]

What book is the feat Worldly Focus in, by the way?
It's a pantheon specific feat (The Sovereign Host) from Faiths of Eberron.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Three human factotums, one azurin totemist. Factotums combined can cover healing, arcane casting, and skillmonkeys, with their combined uses of Arcane Dilettante and Opportunistic Piety, and totemist can cover beatstick and skillmonkey.

[Flickerdart]

And yeah, wizards would be hosed. They might get by with multiple feats of spell mastery but it is probably safe to say they would no longer be Tier 1 if they went that route. And if they started with Vow of Poverty they wouldn't have the ability to regain any spells except read magic until level 3! Just imagine if you start the game with colour spray prepared but can only cast it *once* for your first two levels! :smalleek:
Eidetic Spellcaster trades out your familiar in exchange for having a mind-spellbook.

[Psyren]

You can also use the tattooed spellbook rules from CArc. You get up to 79 pages of storage on your body - not a lot by any means, but enough to keep you from being totally useless.

You could also backport the Witch into 3.5, along with its "I learn from my familiar" rules.

[OracleofWuffing]

The trouble is that line of reasoning allows one to also make one's own mighty (+4) composite long bow and arrows. Technically the cleric holy symbol has a cost (and a cost to create using the craft skill) even in wooden form. Also, it is only used with cleric spells that specifically have Divine Focus as a material component, so perhaps a careful cleric could still function (and use the turn undead stuff for something else, since they could not actually turn undead, technically speaking).
Oddly enough, such a Cleric would be able to cast Summon Holy Symbol, a Roy Orbison that does exactly what it says on the tin. The description even says that the Holy Symbol isn't particularly valuable, too. But I think it'd still break the RAW somehow.

[Otomodachi]

I actually played in a campaign along these lines. The gist was that we, the PCs, were all about 13-14 and had been raised by a monastic order, thus the VoP. This was early in my groups forays into 3.5 DnD and also the first time someone other than me had DM'd, so as I break it down, please be forgiving if some things were not perfectly RAW but just us playing it by ear.

The breakdown, best as I can recall, was-

Monk- grappling-focused enough to have it count; used touch of golden ice like it was going out of style. Our DM was nice enough to have our enemies generally act as if the dude doing flashy kung-fu moves in front was a credible threat and devote due attention to him instead of ignoring the monk, which would've been way valid in a metagame sense. Choice of monk aside, the dude knew how to put a character together. and this monk WAS a credible threat to anything that was grapple-able and would fail a fort save on at least a 1. Player was very good at accepting help from the rest of the party, and WE were good at helping him on HIS terms, more to come.

Bard/Rog- Basically built this dude's character for him. Can't remember exactly how I did it, but it was Rog1/BardX and ranks in disable device and open locks were maintained well enough through some manners of shenanigans. The player was heavily focused on RP to the point of deterring the rest of us- he didn't understand rules, didn't want to understand the rules, sucked at math, would sometimes lie about rolls for the things he wanted his char to succeed at... but that's neither here nor there except to say I have no idea how this one would've performed in the hands of another. Probably kinda meh.

Druid- Yeah, of course the druid performed just fine. The guy went with a wolf for his companion, didn't wildshape much as he preferred the idea of a nekkid teenager whacking peeps with his shillelagh. We had a lot of fun with that word, by the way. :P Wolf companion, summoned wolves, call lightning... basically, the druid would help the monk with trip attacks and buffs.

Cleric/Divine Oracle- Me! Yay! Started out as a cleric of Pelor (Strength, Healing). I embraced the premise of the game and went Vow of Nonviolence/Peace and I am pretty sure I did it WITHOUT alienating the rest of the party. I tossed out buffs like crazy, got the will save on my Calm Emotions aura as high as I could and abused the crap out of it, in an attempt to keep things safe for the Monk to do his thing. I used DMM to persist a few things. I am pretty confident I had the most powerful PC- the druid could've made himself tougher but the player wasn't nearly as experienced as me- but I tried to use that power to make everybody better at what they did. Blindness/Deafness, Bestow Curse, stuff like that.

EDIT: One big RAW change we made was letting my cleric make a crappy wooden holy symbol and not lose my vow. I had craft and everything. No regrets. :P

It was fun. It worked. The DM never needed to calculate CRs lower due to our VoPs, or so he said, at least.

[gbprime]

If you're allowed to use a plain heavy mace (12gp), which you are, I would allow a holy symbol (1gp).

Or am I trying to apply common sense again? :smallsigh:

Remember, a two-weapon fighting ranger with Lightning Mace style and a brace of javelins isn't breaking any part of the vow. But a 1gp wooden holy symbol? Unforgivable. :smalleek:

[gorfnab]

It is possible to create a VoP Wizard. If you can get flaws you can pull this off at 1st level. As stated in a previous post you can still have your spell component pouch. The reserve feats Winters Blast and Acid Splatter will give you a source of extra attacks.


"Easy Bake Wizard"

Elf, preferably Gray

Elf Wizard Racial Sub - Races of the Wild
Eidetic Spellcaster ACF - Dragon Magazine #357
Collegiate Wizard feat - Complete Arcane

1st Level - 7+ Int mod 1st level spells known, all cantrips, 1 extra spell per day of highest level
No Familiar, No Scribe Scroll, No Spellbook

Every level after 1st that advances wizard spellcasting gets you 5 spells known for free instead of the usual 2

If you're playing in Eberron, the feat Aerenal Arcanist (Player's Guide to Eberron) will net you an additional spell known per level netting you 8+Int spells at 1st level (if you take at first level with flaws) and 6 spells known every level after that.

I recommend also taking the Spontaneous Divination ACF from Complete Champion with the build set up.

Add the Domain Wizard ACF from Unearthed Arcana. It works with the Elf Wizard Racial Sub. 1 more spell known and a spell slot to cast it per spell level, and you get to cast that spell at +1 caster level.

[Kaeso]

If you're allowed to use a plain heavy mace (12gp), which you are, I would allow a holy symbol (1gp).

Or am I trying to apply common sense again? :smallsigh:

Remember, a two-weapon fighting ranger with Lightning Mace style and a brace of javelins isn't breaking any part of the vow. But a 1gp wooden holy symbol? Unforgivable. :smalleek:

Yeah, I agree. Technically, not even druids are allowed to have their holly twig, which is basically a "bend over and you have it" item.
:smallamused: I wonder if a lost VoP character is allowed to pick up a map that shows him how to get out of the dungeon. After all, it's a possession.

[Amphetryon]

It is possible to create a VoP Wizard. If you can get flaws you can pull this off at 1st level. As stated in a previous post you can still have your spell component pouch. The reserve feats Winters Blast and Acid Splatter will give you a source of extra attacks.

Note that, depending on sources allowed and how annoying your DM is about it, your VoP Wizard may have difficulties casting Identify and other spells that require expensive components.

[TypoNinja]

If you're allowed to use a plain heavy mace (12gp), which you are, I would allow a holy symbol (1gp).

Or am I trying to apply common sense again? :smallsigh:

Remember, a two-weapon fighting ranger with Lightning Mace style and a brace of javelins isn't breaking any part of the vow. But a 1gp wooden holy symbol? Unforgivable. :smalleek:

Right, that sets you for lower levels, but at higher levels the cooler spells require a Divine Focus that gets expensive enough to not hand wave away, like say destruction, requires a silver holy symbol worth 500GP. And I can't remember but I think there's a midway step between that and the cheapo wooden one too.

[lunar2]

the vow of poverty section specifically advises the DM to consider allowing VOP casters to either

1. spend XP in place of expensive material components

or

2. beg said components off of temples they donate to/ party members.

if you can possess (or replace) expensive material and focus components by RAI, you can surely possess a simple spell book or divine focus.

or, be a cleric of a celestial army, and say that your mace is your holy symbol.

or, eschew materials covers all material and focus components of up to 1 GP, and a wooden holy symbol is only 5 sp. still can't turn undead, but your cheap spells are covered just fine.

[OracleofWuffing]

:smallamused: I wonder if a lost VoP character is allowed to pick up a map that shows him how to get out of the dungeon. After all, it's a possession.
As long as said character doesn't use the map and donates that map to charity as soon as possible, there shouldn't be a problem.

Strategy for a Trolling DM: Map with directions to the nearest charity.

[Jack_Simth]

Note that, depending on sources allowed and how annoying your DM is about it, your VoP Wizard may have difficulties casting Identify and other spells that require expensive components.Identify: Why cast it if the entire party is VoP? Yes, there are some spells with expensive material components which you will want to cast, but most of those either create something permanent, or are Cleric/Druid spells ... or are widely considered on the high end of power for spells anyway, and probably need to be reduced a bit.

Plus there's the section in the Book of Exalted Deeds that suggests replacing material components with XP components just for that reason....
Right, that sets you for lower levels, but at higher levels the cooler spells require a Divine Focus that gets expensive enough to not hand wave away, like say destruction, requires a silver holy symbol worth 500GP. And I can't remember but I think there's a midway step between that and the cheapo wooden one too.
Silver, yes.



or, eschew materials covers all material and focus components of up to 1 GP, and a wooden holy symbol is only 5 sp. still can't turn undead, but your cheap spells are covered just fine.
Eschew Materials (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#eschewMaterials) doesn't do focuses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#focusF) or Divine Focuses (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#divineFocusDF) in 3.5, just the specified material components (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#materialM).

[Amphetryon]

Identify: Why cast it if the entire party is VoP? Yes, there are some spells with expensive material components which you will want to cast, but most of those either create something permanent, or are Cleric/Druid spells ... or are widely considered on the high end of power for spells anyway, and probably need to be reduced a bit.Even if you're donating the treasure to your favorite charities, it may be useful to know what items you're donating and what they do. Some groups may handwave that, but they should at least take it into consideration before agreeing on a VoP party, IMO.

[Jack_Simth]

Even if you're donating the treasure to your favorite charities, it may be useful to know what items you're donating and what they do. Some groups may handwave that, but they should at least take it into consideration before agreeing on a VoP party, IMO.
Ah. Well, a Magic-Domain cleric can take care of that if needed, as can a Cloistered Cleric. No expensive material components required.

[Psyren]

The cosmic forces of good may not take kindly to you handing out cursed items either :smalltongue:

[Draz74]

I once challenged myself to come up with a whole party that was not only under Vow of Poverty, but was also primarily psionic all-around.

I came up with the following:

Tank: Human Monk 2 / Ardent 15 / Crusader 1
Obviously uses Tashalatora. Instead of the last two levels of his progression, he picks up the Saint template. Key feats include Practiced Manifester (duh), Snap Kick, and Linked Power.

Healer: Human Paragon 1 / Shaper 5 / Sangehirn 5 / Constructor 9
Standard use of the Astral Construct power makes her amazingly flexible. Psionic Minor Creation and Psionic Major Creation get around any problems the party has with simply needing mundane equipment without violating VoP. The Human Paragon dip makes any Psion (not just an Egoist) able to enter Sangehirn without much trouble. Key feats obviously include Psicrystal Affinity and Psionic Meditation.

Arcanist: Half-Fey Azurin Wilder 9 / Incarnate 1 / Soul Manifester 10
Uses the Educated Wilder variant, obviously. Also LA Buyoff, which I felt was justified for a medium-power template like Half-Fey where it would have been cheesy for a high-powered template like Saint. The day-to-day flexibility of Incarnum allows her to overcome the Wilder's usual issues of having too few Powers (especially when you add in SLAs from Half-Fey). In combat, mostly blasts with Swarm of Crystals augmented with the Psionic Focus soulmeld. Obviously uses Midnight Augmentation and Psycarnum Infusion; also relies on the DM allowing Share Soulmeld to apply to Psicrystals via a liberal interpretation of transparency.

Skillmonkey: Human Factotum 3 / Seer 4 / Uncanny Trickster 3 / Elocator 10
Fights with a longspear. Ends up with a ML of 13, which is far lower than the other three -- but still, 7th-level (or equivalent) powers are nothing to sneeze at. This guy really is mostly an out-of-combat utility fellow, though.

[OracleofWuffing]

The cosmic forces of good may not take kindly to you handing out cursed items either :smalltongue:
Well, it's not my fault the poor orphans thought it'd be a good idea to wear the amulet of strangulation!

I wanted them to eat it!

[Studynot]

Well, it's not my fault the poor orphans thought it'd be a good idea to wear the amulet of strangulation!

I wanted them to eat it!

I think the better question for me is, how did an entire party of VoP characters carry all the loot back to donate it in the first place?

I really like the idea of running an all VoP party! Maybe I'll run it by my group and see if they're into the idea at all.

[Jack_Simth]

I think the better question for me is, how did an entire party of VoP characters carry all the loot back to donate it in the first place?

They're not allowed to use or own it. If they don't consider it theirs, and never use it, it's fine (they're simply trusted with carrying it until it can be brought back to the orphanage/charity of choice).

[Tvtyrant]

The Telepathic Ghost build where you chuck half a dozen colossal weapons at people a round would still work, you would just have to use simple weapons rather than greatswords.

[Jack_Simth]

The Telepathic Ghost build where you chuck half a dozen colossal weapons at people a round would still work, you would just have to use simple weapons rather than greatswords.
You mean like Colossal crossbow bolts? Deals damage as daggers of their size... daggers are 1d4 for medium critters, four steps up to Colossal leaves them doing 3d6 each, which will do something through most DR in D&D... and, of course, Greater Magic Weapon can make them do more (other simple weapons would work too, of course, but crossbow bolts have the advantage that you can GMW 50 of them at a time, and that they weigh in at almost nothing to begin with, which makes more size increases possible)

[Tvtyrant]

You mean like Colossal crossbow bolts? Deals damage as daggers of their size... daggers are 1d4 for medium critters, four steps up to Colossal leaves them doing 3d6 each, which will do something through most DR in D&D... and, of course, Greater Magic Weapon can make them do more (other simple weapons would work too, of course, but crossbow bolts have the advantage that you can GMW 50 of them at a time, and that they weigh in at almost nothing to begin with, which makes more size increases possible)

That is a pretty good idea; I was thinking about slapping Artificer levels on and infusioning the weapons, but a Cleric would work just as well.

[Studynot]

They're not allowed to use or own it. If they don't consider it theirs, and never use it, it's fine (they're simply trusted with carrying it until it can be brought back to the orphanage/charity of choice).

But possession is 9/10ths of ownership! If I were DM'ing I would never let a whole party of VoP to carry loot around with them. Of course I would have to house rule the VoP to prevent someone from carrying a 12gp mace too.

[Tvtyrant]

But possession is 9/10ths of ownership! If I were DM'ing I would never let a whole party of VoP to carry loot around with them. Of course I would have to house rule the VoP to prevent someone from carrying a 12gp mace too.

How are they going to get the wealth to the charity if they cannot carry it there?

[demigodus]

But possession is 9/10ths of ownership! If I were DM'ing I would never let a whole party of VoP to carry loot around with them. Of course I would have to house rule the VoP to prevent someone from carrying a 12gp mace too.

So, if you have a mountain of gold and treasure on one side of some path that is lethal to anyone other then the PC's, and half a city is starving on the other side on the other end due to poverty, with a bunch of homeless, VoP means that you are supposed to tell the starving and the homeless to cross the path (and likely die), while you sit back and relax because it would be a sin to pick up that gold and hand it over to the needy?

Personally I would argue that understanding of VoP is way too strict to the point of being harmful to the intent of VoP.

[Studynot]

So, if you have a mountain of gold and treasure on one side of some path that is lethal to anyone other then the PC's, and half a city is starving on the other side on the other end due to poverty, with a bunch of homeless, VoP means that you are supposed to tell the starving and the homeless to cross the path (and likely die), while you sit back and relax because it would be a sin to pick up that gold and hand it over to the needy?

Personally I would argue that understanding of VoP is way too strict to the point of being harmful to the intent of VoP.

First of all that's a pretty ridiculous situation, but if the PC's can cross the path then they can probably figure out a way to escort the starving people tot he gold. They can hire porters to carry the goods for them for a portion of the wealth, and those porters could be the starving people!

I don't think it's harmful to the intent, I think the Vow is a very strict thing and the PC(s) are being blessed by the gods of good for their adherence to a vow. The idea that you have PC's carrying around huge crossbow bolts as some of the posts talk about above or using 12gp maces which is worth like a month's wages for a commoner NPC, just because the weapon is a "simple weapon" by type is just power gaming a flavor/role playing feat in the first place.

It requires some foresight and some creativity on the part of the PCs, but if you're going to try for an entire party of VoP characters, that is going to be called for anyway.

[Amphetryon]

They can hire porters to carry the goods for them for a portion of the wealth, and those porters could be the starving people!How would a VoP party pay these porters that they hire, exactly?

[Lonely Tylenol]

If I recall (away from book), VoP specifically states that you CAN have items of value only insofar as you are transporting them from A to B. in other words, you can carry it to your local church to be donated, but ONLY for that purpose; if you decide, "well, it's already in my possession, so I might as well use it while I've got it", you instantly and irrevocably lose the benefits of the feat.

I've also heard it said (but know that it is an interpretation of ambiguous RAW, which doesn't specify) that the simple weapons you are allowed are limited to the simple weapons with no gold point value - which is to say, the quarte staff, the club, and the sling. If you read the RAW like so, then the difference between allowable weapons (0gp) and a holy symbol (1gp) seems less incongruous.

I played a VoP Human Swordsage//Fighter once, in an OA game. Wasn't terribly optimized, just manipulated the space around him through reach shenanigans (Short Haft, Burning Brand, feat whose name I can't remember which extends your range by 5 ft. For a round, Shifting Stance [?]) with Combat Reflexes to adapt my fighting. Had two feats every two levels, and the game was mid-level, so I didn't have to worry about running out of good or relevant feats (though I would soon). I probably lagged behind the rest of the party, though. I remember having to specifically ask for him to be allowed to wear plain leather armor (to remind him of his failures in service of his daimyo) and wield a longspear (his weapon of choice as a trained warrior before VoP), both of which had a gp value. Fortunately, the DM hand-waved those restrictions, and only those restrictions (as the armor provided no mechanical benefit and the spear was only a d6 -> d8 with reach, which couldn't hurt THAT much).

[nedz]

But possession is 9/10ths of ownership! If I were DM'ing I would never let a whole party of VoP to carry loot around with them. Of course I would have to house rule the VoP to prevent someone from carrying a 12gp mace too.

So how would you have them do the Recover the McGuffin to save the world type of thing then ? Can they only do this if the McGuffin is worth next to nothing ?

[The Bandicoot]

I made a VoP Barbarian/Cleric of Kord.(not optimized at all)My DM allowed me to use a Kord symbol branded into my chest as my holy symbol. Only problem is now every time I turn undead it ends up being a care-bear stare.(Im punchy bear!)

[deuxhero]

So how would you have them do the Recover the McGuffin to save the world type of thing then ? Can they only do this if the McGuffin is worth next to nothing ?

Good news! Artifacts have no value!

As a result of this and the fact that one is the component for Apocalypse From the Sky, you can pull them out of your pouch without end.

[Callista]

So yeah, obviously the rules didn't take holy symbols into account; but what's to stop the DM tweaking the VoP to either include a wooden holy symbol or else give the cleric the ability to cast without it, since as an extreme-Good character he might as well be his deity's holy symbol? And there are other options: A cleric with VoP could have a tattoo, scar, or birthmark; or have drawn the holy symbol onto his clothing.

Remember this is an Exalted feat, which means that the characters who take the feat are very Good-aligned and do everything they do because they want to help other people, make the world better, etc., etc.

Looking at it from that perspective, the reason for the Vow becomes pretty clear: Someone who takes a Vow of Poverty usually does so because every copper that benefits them, they see as a copper that isn't being used to benefit someone else. Therefore, they solve the problem by simply giving everything away. The second they gain anything more, they give that away too.

Taking that as the spirit of the Vow, it should be easy to solve those technical problems. Can you carry the gold to the orphanage? Of course; otherwise how will the orphanage ever use it? Can you use a holy symbol? Sure; you want to be able to use your magic to benefit others, though if you could find a way to sell it and give the gold away, you'd do that.

A lot of these rules problems can be solved just by asking yourself what would be consistent with the character and the world they're in. Only if you look at the rules in isolation, as logical statements to be optimized to the highest power level feasible, rather than as part of a narrative, do you really run into these problems.

[Zaq]

It is possible to create a VoP Wizard. If you can get flaws you can pull this off at 1st level. As stated in a previous post you can still have your spell component pouch. The reserve feats Winters Blast and Acid Splatter will give you a source of extra attacks.

I could have sworn that Eidetic Spellcaster still required you to spend GP to learn your spells, except it's rare incense and hoobidywhatsit instead of fairy ink and pegasus quills. No?

[Andorax]

I'm still convinced that one of the best, thematic, Vow of Poverty characters is a Psion build that heads for Uncarnate. Someone who is so divorced from material needs that they eventually surrender their material form entirely.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm still convinced that one of the best, thematic, Vow of Poverty characters is a Psion build that heads for Uncarnate. Someone who is so divorced from material needs that they eventually surrender their material form entirely.

Sounds like the VoP guy that the other VoP guys glance at sideways and mutter about over their shoulders. :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

Not all cleric spells require a holy symbol, only the ones that say DF under components. Still a big handicap though.

I wonder if you could challenge the article by being a wizard and taking spell mastery over and over and over again. I would also load up on metamagic after the 3rd spell mastery since each metamagic feat nearly doubles your options. And all those many new options go into the more important high level slots. So it's a good way to recycle your lower level spells if you plan ahead and pick the right ones.