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View Full Version : Killer DM? A way for me to vent and get advice



Shotaro
2012-03-03, 12:22 PM
OK,

First of all a disclaimer: I do not know if the DM reads these forums or not. If he does I apologise this is merely here for me to vent and get it out of my system since what happenned (and more specifically what hapenned afterwards) did, frankly, **** me off. This is not personal but I need to rant a bit.

So, on with the show. For the past few weeks we have returned to an older campaign. The campaign is "low arcana" mages are nerfed pretty heavily and a lot of spells are not readily available. Divine magic has been left alone but I can cope with this really even though I play a Wizard and we have a Druid in the party. We have a couple of magic items (one which is thunderstrike(?) 1d6 electrical + 2d10 on a crit, and another which has extra cleaving.) Our party has been sent into once fertile lands that have been struck by a blight on an exploratory mission. Myself and the party's Theurge are hoping to find some spell books to boost our own repertoires and hopefully recover some spells that were thought to be lost. My Wizard is CG and the Theurge is CN and a worshipper of the god of KNOWLEDGE by the way (but more on that later).

Anyway onto last night. We were fighting some creatures that were a mix between CR1 and CR5. We are a 7th level party with 8 members. We annihilated them, even the higher CR monsters who had HP between around 50-100 and spell resistance. I cast stinking cloud on one group and used the wind (coming from 4o'clock at 8 squares per round) to trap his other mooks in it as it followed the wind across. It took out about five or six mooks and then, at the end of the round, the cloud was set to move. I drew it 8 squares away in the appropriate direction and highlighted the creatures that needed to make FORT saves. Suddenly the wind dropped and changed direction so that it was moving DIRECTLY TOWARDS the party (bearing in mind this is AFTER I've re-drawn the bloody thing) None-the-less we dispatched the mooks without much trouble. Our Theurge did get hit once but that was it; any other damage taken was to the Dwarves who both have something like 100hp.

On to the city we were sent to explore. We found ONE standing building. Surrounded by two overlapping auras, one gold and the other white. Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) rolls a plenty later and we are unable to figure out what the hell is going on. My wizard steps up to the plate I can enter the gold aura, but the white resists me enough for me to step back. This is the temple of the god of Law so in my mind it stands to reason that the gold aura is "good" and the white aura is "law". I step back, joking about making popcorn because I know the Theurge will play his character and try to enter. The guys stood at the entrance of the temple are stoic and refuse to reply to us. Only to say that they cannot drop the auras around the temple. The theurge pushes into one aura and is asked to roll 2d4. The result is 6. On the Third Will save the Theurge fails and is dealt enough damage to kill him outright (he had 30 hp total, took 8 damge in the fight and 39 from the various and varied dice rolled by the aura, putting him on -17). Only two characters in the party can even enter the temple (out of 8) since they are the only two LG characters. The Theurge player is annoyed, but says oh well. I need to introduce my backup a Bard. The DM says, no. You can play the LG NPC ranger as is or you can roll a paladin.

To me it seems as though he killed the most morally dubious character in the party in order to force us to take a Paladin. Here's the kicker. Two weeks ago I called the DM and offerred to retire my Wizard (it's not much fun when the Druid is casting 140 square metres of spiked stones and taking out entire fights whilst I am still buffing and/or using the only offensive spell I have available in stinking cloud) and roll a Paladin. We had a Theurge in the party so we wouldn't have lost too much arcane casting ability. This has really annoyed me to be honest and has caused the DM (who I thought to be a really great DM) to drop massively in my estimations. He seems to fudge every enemy and every fight to ensure it takes us to the absolute brink then responds with it was only CR9! (a seven headed serpent with seven POISON attacks per round that have a DC18 AND do 1d10 damage and failing the poison roll results in 1d8 con loss is NOT CR9 even if it *only* has around 120 hp!!) I will be going back next week I think. The guy who played the Theurge isn't until he can play a character he wants to play.

Rant over, comments etc are welcome but this really is more of a rant that anything else. This is not supposed to be an OMG my DM SUXORS! thing, just a story I needed to share so I could move on from it.

limejuicepowder
2012-03-03, 01:27 PM
Sorry to hear that bro. Sound like a pretty unfortunate situation.

I get the feeling from your post that you don't necessarily want to do anything about it, but have to tried talking to the DM? If he really is an otherwise good and experienced DM, he should respond to complaints of near-blatant railroading. How well do you know him?

The Glyphstone
2012-03-03, 01:36 PM
A DM has no right to dictate what a player's character is.

Talking to the DM should be the first step, though. By your description of his railroading, fudging, and other traits, he wouldn't fit any definition of 'good DM' in addition to having no grasp of CR, but maybe he has redeeming traits.

demigodus
2012-03-03, 01:58 PM
you guys are lvl 8 right? What is your DM's definition of a paladin? As in, at what point would a PC be considered Paladin? I believe Paladin 1/bard 7 is technically still a paladin...

Other then that, you have a lvl 8 druid, so lvl 4 spells are on the table. You could always cast Reincarnation on the Theruge, just so he doesn't have to play a Paladin.

The Glyphstone
2012-03-03, 02:03 PM
The un-subtle point is that the DM wants to punish people for being non-LG, so a Paladin/Bard wouldn't work.

If the DM is unreasonable and you don't want to leave, have the Theurge roll a Paladin...with ranks in Hide and the Cleave feat. Use Summon Monster or Planar Binding to bring in an Evil Outsider for him to chat with, and then he's abruptly a Blackguard. Hilarity ensues.

Need_A_Life
2012-03-03, 02:04 PM
You need to have a talk with the GM and the rest of the group, because you clearly aren't on the same page regarding what you want out of this campaign.

Personally, I'd be pis**d if I found out my GM was deliberately doing his best to make player tactics and use of resources irrelevant. Player ingenuity is to be treasured.
As a GM, I may "fudge" a roll or two, but I tell players going in that occasionally someone might survive to flee an encounter, because I've got something planned I think they'll enjoy more... but I tell players that "going in," and would never make a fight harder, just to make it harder.

*All details regarding my own GMing styles should be considered to end with: "...unless I change my mind"*

MukkTB
2012-03-03, 02:04 PM
A DM has no right to dictate what a player's character is.

Don't some DM's pregenerate characters? I've seen some campaign material where there are pregenerated characters that a DM could hand out. I wouldn't personally want to play that way but...

My group has encountered some issues even beyond that. The DM's setting does dictate just a bit what kind of characters you can find living in it. Our group also makes players start lvl 1 as a noble if they want to be the son of the King or something.

I'm pretty sure that a good DM has a little bit of say in how characters build their PCs. Maybe not dictating class/alignment but at least a few nudges here and there.


Whats the consensus on this?

hymer
2012-03-03, 02:16 PM
@ MukkTB: Glyphstone is probably overstating it a little. But I think he's right in that the GM should never allow a player to do something, and then kill the character off for being what s/he is. That's just the wrong way to go about it.
The GM can get away with quite a bit of dictation, as long as the players know of it and agree to it going in.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2012-03-03, 02:37 PM
Your story smacks of favoritism, as it looks to me like your DM is trying to punish anyone who plays a spellcaster except the guy playing the Druid.

Going Paladin until 11th and then abruptly switching it to Paladin 1/ Blackguard 10 (which you don't need any of the prerequisites for, it's an alternate entry) would work, if he wants to put up with it for that long. He could use the Harmonious Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels and still get Inspire Courage, and maybe grab War Chanter later on.

He could pull out all the stops and go DMM: Persistomancy Cloistered Cleric into Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) for three levels and then stick to full-casting prestige classes afterward. Divine Oracle is pretty good for two or four levels, and Contemplative is superb for finishing out a build. Starting at that level he can even say he visited the Frog God's Fane detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get the feat prerequisite for Divine Oracle without spending a feat on it. Get the Spell domain, a Lesser Rod of Extend, a Reliquary Holy Symbol, Night Sticks, and a standard Strand of Prayer Beads with the Bead of Smiting removed (it's 9,000 gp per DMG pricing). Every day use Anyspell to prepare Sheild, use the Bead of Karma, and then cast DMM: Persistent Shield, Rod of Extended Luminous Armor, and Rod of Extended Magic Vestment on both of those. If he has enough turn undead uses for more persistent spells, Mass Lesser Vigor on the whole party (except for anyone the DM plays favorites with, due to in-character trust issues) will guarantee that everyone's healed to full between encounters.

The Glyphstone
2012-03-03, 04:12 PM
@ MukkTB: Glyphstone is probably overstating it a little. But I think he's right in that the GM should never allow a player to do something, and then kill the character off for being what s/he is. That's just the wrong way to go about it.
The GM can get away with quite a bit of dictation, as long as the players know of it and agree to it going in.

Yeah, I mis-stated my point. What I should have said is "The GM has no right to dictate what a player's character is without their consent". When you play a game with pregenerated characters, it's typically with the knowledge that said pregens will be provided.

Namfuak
2012-03-03, 05:43 PM
I agree with some of the other comments in this thread, so I won't repeat them.

3 things that strike me:

1. You said your character is Lawful Good, and yet he could not get through the lawful shield?

2. If the DM favors the druid, why would he make a temple like this in the first place? Unless he allowed the druid to be LG, that is.

3. That temple is neither lawful nor good if it kills people with no warning. If there was some placard on the wall that said "Only those who are pure of heart and strict in their moral discipline may enter this temple, all others will be driven back with deadly force," it would at least be somewhat acceptable (and even then only on the lawful side, for the good side it really should be non-lethal damage if it even damages the person at all).

Shotaro
2012-03-04, 03:32 PM
I agree with some of the other comments in this thread, so I won't repeat them.

3 things that strike me:

1. You said your character is Lawful Good, and yet he could not get through the lawful shield?

2. If the DM favors the druid, why would he make a temple like this in the first place? Unless he allowed the druid to be LG, that is.

3. That temple is neither lawful nor good if it kills people with no warning. If there was some placard on the wall that said "Only those who are pure of heart and strict in their moral discipline may enter this temple, all others will be driven back with deadly force," it would at least be somewhat acceptable (and even then only on the lawful side, for the good side it really should be non-lethal damage if it even damages the person at all).

1) no I'm CG. if I said otherwise it was a typo.... I'll check though. EDIT: it was indeed a typo, thanks for pointing that out...

2) I don't think the DM favours the Druid necessarily, just has pretty heavily netted the wizard/sorcerer to force them to be buffers whilst leaving Druids and clerics alone.

3) I agree, however the in story reasoning is something along the lines of there is nothing in any direction for 1000s of miles other than evil creatures that want to eat your face. None the less I agree a warning to sentient creatures would be more like a lawful and certainly a good alignment.

Godskook
2012-03-04, 06:32 PM
1.Violating the protective barriers of a LG temple is player choice(or stupidity as the case may be) not DM animosity. Not only in general, but as you tell the story. The fact that this directly lead to PC death on a roll(a no-save just die effect is not unreasonable here) should've been expected.

2.That serpent you're describing sounds just about right for CR 9, and for an 8 person party of 7th level characters, should've been a pushover unless the saves/AC were through the roof.

3.I'll agree that your DM shouldn't have forced a particular character concept on the theurge's player.

Averis Vol
2012-03-05, 01:44 AM
1.Violating the protective barriers of a LG temple is player choice(or stupidity as the case may be) not DM animosity. Not only in general, but as you tell the story. The fact that this directly lead to PC death on a roll(a no-save just die effect is not unreasonable here) should've been expected.

seeing as the DM gave them absolutely no indication what the hell the barriers were i think this is an unfair assessment. first of all if its to be assumed (once again no guarantee because not a single check passed, though this may be a flaw the the die rolls) that its a lawful and good screen, why did the CG wizard pass one where the LN theurge couldn't pass the opposite? and then, isn't a no-save die at level eight a bit rough? especially with half the casters in the party gimped to oblivion with not even so much as a mental tinge saying "you shall not pass!"

Godskook
2012-03-05, 05:05 PM
seeing as the DM gave them absolutely no indication what the hell the barriers were i think this is an unfair assessment. first of all if its to be assumed (once again no guarantee because not a single check passed, though this may be a flaw the the die rolls) that its a lawful and good screen, why did the CG wizard pass one where the LN theurge couldn't pass the opposite? and then, isn't a no-save die at level eight a bit rough? especially with half the casters in the party gimped to oblivion with not even so much as a mental tinge saying "you shall not pass!"

1.The theurge in question is CN not LN.

2.There was enough 'tinge' for the OP to decide it wasn't a good idea for *HIM* to mess with it. Hence why he joked about knowing the CN theurge was going to try *ANYWAY*.

3.In the actual case, there *was* a save.

4.From the CG wizard's experimenting, the party pretty much knew(all in the OP) that the auras were designed to only allow people of certain alignments in, and Good got through one, and Chaotic did not go through the other. The CN guy deciding to 'go through anyway' is just asking for whatever the DM wants to throw at that point.

Averis Vol
2012-03-05, 05:21 PM
ohh, my sincerest apologies i thought it said LN.

Typewriter
2012-03-05, 07:14 PM
The events that occurred mostly make sense to me. The party was damaged and still attempted to mess with magic they didn't understand even though it seemed to be resisting them.

The one thing I don't think makes much sense is dictating the class, BUT...

If the party is in a location where it wouldn't make sense for a Bard to hang out, I could imagine him dictating the characters choice at the moment. At the moment the temple might only have one NPC ranger, and a bunch of Paladins there.

In that instance it would make sense to say, "If you want to introduce a new character right now you'll have to either take over this NPC or create a Paladin, but if you're willing to wait for a while then you can introduce a bard."

That's my opinion anyways.