High-level essentials

[kestrel404]

I'm looking into cutting back the magic system at higher levels of play so that no class gets any spells higher than 6th level. However, I know that higher level play often lives and dies based on having access to certain of those spells.

What cleric, wizard & druid spells of 7th, 8th and 9th level would you considder to be absolutely essential? Not essential in 'this is the best/most powerful/most useful' sense, but rather spells that have no equivalent effect at lower level and which are necessary for defeating non-unique high level opponents in the CR 15-25 range.

Examples:
Regeneration - the only way to restore limb loss
Limited Wish/Wish/Miracle - often cited as the only 'counters' to certain magical effects
Resurrection - the only way to supply a dead ally with a new body

[FearlessGnome]

For the particular spells you mentioned, you could always make them 6th level and give them a punishing Exp cost. Pay the exp, or pay lots of gold for an NPC to cast them. They remain available, but won't break anything.

[kestrel404]

For the particular spells you mentioned, you could always make them 6th level and give them a punishing Exp cost. Pay the exp, or pay lots of gold for an NPC to cast them. They remain available, but won't break anything.

Actually, I'm planning on doing a significant amount of both re-writing and re-distributing spells among levels. The same way greater dispel and other spells are lower level for bards simply because bards get that level of spell at a higher level, I'm just going to make some spells lower level (Regeneration and Resurrection, for example, are going to become 5th and 6th level spells respectively).

Whereas Wish & Miracle are going to see a serious re-examination and re-write before they become 6th level spells, with limited wish MAYBE getting a similar treatment before becoming a 4th level spell.

[ShriekingDrake]

How about Heal?

For druids, I think Master Earth is pretty useful as are the SNA spells

Freedom, True Seeing, and--maybe--Mind Blank come to mind.

[Endarire]

True resurrection can revive someone even without the body. Time stop grants me extra turns. Gate calls creatures and lets me change planes. Mind blank offers plain ol' immunity to [Mind-Affecting] effects. Dimension lock wards against teleporters. Polymorph any object explicitly grants me the INT of the new form, which is handy for Sarrukhs. Mass heal cleans up the party from a distance.

[legomaster00156]

True resurrection can revive someone even without the body. Time stop grants me extra turns. Gate calls creatures and lets me change planes. Mind blank offers plain ol' immunity to [Mind-Affecting] effects. Dimension lock wards against teleporters. Polymorph any object explicitly grants me the INT of the new form, which is handy for Sarrukhs. Mass heal cleans up the party from a distance.
Ah, but how many of those do you NEED? The answer is Mass Heal, and nothing else.
True Resurrection? You got disintegrated. Sorry, you're dead.
Time Stop? Don't need it.
Gate? Summon Monster Spells and/or Planar Binding for summoning; Plane Shift for interplanar travel.
Mind Blank? There are other ways to obtain immunity.
Dimensional Lock? Settle for Dimensional Anchor.
PAO? Do you really need one of the most broken spells in the game? Really?

I would like to add the following spells to the necessity list: Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally VII, VIII, and IX. The monsters at the level 6 version will quickly become unviable.

[KillianHawkeye]

Ah, but how many of those do you NEED? The answer is Mass Heal, and nothing else.
True Resurrection? You got disintegrated. Sorry, you're dead.
Time Stop? Don't need it.
Gate? Summon Monster Spells and/or Planar Binding for summoning; Plane Shift for interplanar travel.
Mind Blank? There are other ways to obtain immunity.
Dimensional Lock? Settle for Dimensional Anchor.
POA? Do you really need one of the most broken spells in the game? Really?

If you look into this, I think you're going to find that different people need different things.

[legomaster00156]

If you look into this, I think you're going to find that different people need different things.
Time Stop and POA are the only spells on that list that cannot be replaced with lower-level spells. However, you don't really need extra actions, and you definitely don't need an {x | x is a ridiculously high number} INT boost.

[KillianHawkeye]

Time Stop and POA are the only spells on that list that cannot be replaced with lower-level spells. However, you don't really need extra actions, and you definitely don't need an {x | x is a ridiculously high number} INT boost.

Maybe you don't, but somebody else might. Just saying, the question is relative.

I could just as easily say you don't need Mass Heal when you already have Mass Cure X Wounds.

[Marnath]

How about Heal?


Heal is already 6th level. :smallconfused:

[Godskook]

If all 7th, 8th and 9th level spells are 'off the table', the only thing you really need to do is drop wish/miracle/reality revision down to accessible levels, and only for dealing with things like the Tarrasque and such which aren't common occurrences. After that, as long as you're not throwing CR 14+ monsters at the party blindly, you should be fine(For instance, some outsiders might need reworking)

[Voyager_I]

Maybe you don't, but somebody else might. Just saying, the question is relative.

I could just as easily say you don't need Mass Heal when you already have Mass Cure X Wounds.

If his goal is to keep magic from becoming overwhelmingly powerful, Polymorph Any Object and Time Stop are two spells near the top of the list of things casters shouldn't have access to.

[gomipile]

If any player decides to play a summoner or summoning based class, then the higher level summon monster/ summon nature's ally lists should be available, just so that their summons don't become useless at high levels.

[Ernir]

If you let True Resurrection in (which I'm not sure you should), Soul Bind and/or Trap the Soul should come as part of the deal.

Druids should get their True Seeing bumped down a level.

No Create Greater Undead removes some of the undead variety from the game.

If you remove Mind Blank, divinations just became even more devastatingly powerful. Same goes for Dimensional Lock and teleportations (Dimensional Anchor doesn't really cut it). As is, these spells come later than the things they counter, but if they just don't come at all... ouch.

[Pigkappa]

What cleric, wizard & druid spells of 7th, 8th and 9th level would you considder to be absolutely essential? Not essential in 'this is the best/most powerful/most useful' sense, but rather spells that have no equivalent effect at lower level and which are necessary for defeating non-unique high level opponents in the CR 15-25 range.
The need for those spells depends on what happens in your campaign. Just remove them all; when some of those effects are necessary, you have a good excuse for plot advancement.

Example: a character just lost an arm? This could be a good reason to visit the famous temple lost in the desert, since that's the place the famous healer Y is said to live. However, nobody has been there in a long time.

[jindra34]

Mind Blank I can agree on, dimension lock can be covered by Forbiddance which is a 6th level spell. Can't think of any other really high level spells that are absolutely needed.

[kestrel404]

So I'm hearing that Mind Blank and Mass Heal are both fairly necessary at higher levels, with Create Greater Undead and the various Summoning spells (except Gate, I see no reason for that one) getting a re-write so it fits with the lower levels?

As well as what I previously suggested.

Anything else, or does that seem like all the necessary spells?

[Cruiser1]

So I'm hearing that Mind Blank and Mass Heal are both fairly necessary at higher levels
Mind Blank can be reproduced with the 6th level spell Empyreal Ecstasy (BoED) for immunity to mind-affecting + 3rd level spell Nondetection for resistance to divination.

Mass Heal can be reproduced with the 6th level spell Heal (one target) + Reach and Chain Spell metamagic feats (multiple targets) + metamagic reducers.

[ShriekingDrake]

Heal is already 6th level. :smallconfused:

Not if you are playing a druid, but with a cleric in the party I'll nod to your point.

[kestrel404]

Mind Blank can be reproduced with the 6th level spell Empyreal Ecstasy (BoED) for immunity to mind-affecting + 3rd level spell Nondetection for resistance to divination.

Mass Heal can be reproduced with the 6th level spell Heal (one target) + Reach and Chain Spell metamagic feats (multiple targets) + metamagic reducers.

Perhaps I'll just re-write Empyreal Ecstasy then - if it's in BoED, it's probably limited to good casters.

As for the 'pseudo-mass' Heal via metamagic and reducers, I'd rather people not need to optimze their build just to be able to properly perform combat-healing. I'll probably make Heal a 5th level spell (6th for Druids) and Mass Heal can be the 6th level Healing domain spell (making it a specialty ability, rather than generally available).

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.

[Coidzor]

Well, some of those you can just make into rituals that cost money, time, and maybe some XP, sort of like crafting.

Considering that True Resurrection costs 25,000 gp, I'm not seeing any problems with refluffing that as a ritual rather than a 9th level spell.

[kestrel404]

Well, some of those you can just make into rituals that cost money, time, and maybe some XP, sort of like crafting.

Considering that True Resurrection costs 25,000 gp, I'm not seeing any problems with refluffing that as a ritual rather than a 9th level spell.

Yeah, that's my plan for wish/miracle as well. Something that CAN be done, but not really a 'spell'.