Combat Reflexes + Reach Weapon tactic

[odigity]

Still relatively new to the full scope of 3.5, trying to put together new tactics as I learn more.

I have a Monk I'd like to try something new with. As I understand it, if I get the Combat Reflexes feat (multiple attacks of opportunity), and give him a longspear (reach weapon), he can run out to the middle of the battle, stand there, and threaten every square within 10' with either the longspear or his unarmed strike, for a total of 24 squares? (5 by 5, with him in the center square)

At which point he gets a free attack of opportunity every round against everything that moves out of one of those squares?

[hex0]

Monk does have tumble as a class skill and a very high movement rate, so this can be a good tactic.

What books do you have access to in your game? This can improve this tactic quite a bit.

Edit: Though Monks aren't profecient with the Longspear or any reach weapon, so you would have to dip to get it. Sacred Fist or Tash build, for example.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Grab Stand Still from XPH or the SRD. Your weapon doesn't have the tripping property, so Improved Trip isn't good, unless you've already grabbed it as your 6th level monk bonus feat.

And yes, that is what happens. It's not exactly new, people have been figuring out this stuff since the game came out. Crowd controllers are the only "tanks" in 3.5, whether a crusader with Thicket of Blades, Improved Trip, and Stand Still, or a wizard with Web and Grease.

[hex0]

Grab Stand Still from XPH or the SRD. Your weapon doesn't have the tripping property, so Improved Trip isn't good, unless you've already grabbed it as your 6th level monk bonus feat.

And yes, that is what happens. It's not exactly new, people have been figuring out this stuff since the game came out. Crowd controllers are the only "tanks" in 3.5, whether a crusader with Thicket of Blades, Improved Trip, and Stand Still, or a wizard with Web and Grease.

You could dip Human Paragon to pick up a martial prof. with a Glaive or Guisarme and a permanent class skill (like UMD).

[Voyager_I]

Now do it on a Fighter carrying a Spiked Chain!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Now do it on a Fighter carrying a Spiked Chain!

Or a barbarian carrying a spiked chain. With Ferocity (two extra AoOs per round!) and Wolf Totem (Improved Trip in place of Uncanny Dodge at 2nd level, I believe).

[odigity]

Monk does have tumble as a class skill and a very high movement rate, so this can be a good tactic.

What books do you have access to in your game? This can improve this tactic quite a bit.

Edit: Though Monks aren't profecient with the Longspear or any reach weapon, so you would have to dip to get it. Sacred Fist or Tash build, for example.

My GM is cool with nearly any book. We're all relatively new to 3.0/3.5, so we've been reading everything we can get our hands on over the last month and incorporating things as we learn about them.

Longspear won't be a problem - he's not a pure monk. I started him as a Rogue for the weapon proficiencies, skill points, class skills, and sneak attack +1d6. Second level I took one level of Sorceror to get True Strike and Blade of Blood. Third level I took Monk, and have stayed with that since - now at level 5, or in other words Rogue 1, Sorceror 1, Monk 3.

The plan was to make him an assassin. By level two he was able to deliver two nearly-guaranteed massive hits per day. He has four 1st level spells per day, so round 1 cast True Strike, round 2 cast Blade of Blood as a swift action and attack for 1d6+2 (rapier, composite shortbow, or unarmed strike +2 str bonus), + 1d6 for blade of blood (or 3d6 if I sacrifice 5 hit points), + 1d6 sneak attack if a) I snuck up on them b) flanked them in tandem with one of the party members. So, using all tactical advantages to the max, I can deliver a reliable 5d6+2. I can do this twice a day, which is great for taking out 1-2 high profile targets, but he's mediocre against many small targets.

At third level I became a monk and dropped the rapier. Now I just run around everywhere with the shortbow in my hands and the rest of my body for unarmed strikes. I've been investing in Tumble so I can safely get behind enemies and flank them with other party members to get sneak attack, and also build up the requisite 12 Tumble to get Acrobatic Strike feat someday.

Anyways, decided to try a new tactic to get the most use out of him in large-scale situations. Next level (ECL 6, Monk 4) I'll get a feat, and if I get combat reflexes, and if I get a spear and enchant it +1 Changeling (so I can keep it as a shortspear strapped to my back for convenience, then draw it as a longspear)... and considering I already have 40' speed, Deflect Arrows, and great Tumble...

I should be able to stand in the middle of a horde of Orcs, deflect javelins thrown at me, and hit everything that moves around me. Not for a lot of damage, but if it seems to be working, I can beef up the spear. Maybe with one of those properties that sucks a few hit points on every hit to heal me so I can last nearly forever against many small foes, all by myself in the middle.

That's the fun part about playing a somewhat limited character (and he only has Int 8 and Con 10), it's pushing me to learn to use clever tactics to get the most out of him.

Assuming that all works, what about additional ways of extending his reach to make the whole thing even more insane? Enlarge Person? Greatreach Bracers? How far can this tactic be pushed within practicality?

[Namfuak]

Hell, as long as we are on this subject:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

Edit: I read the post above me. I'm assuming your DM waived the alignment restriction (rogue can't be lawful, monk must be lawful). Apparently I confused rogue with bard.

The main ways to increase reach are to increase size (which increases the range increment of that spear to 10-20, IIRC) (your sorcerer level gives you access to that, if your DM allows you to retrain a spell from your spells known, check PHBII for rules on this), Inhuman Reach from Lords of Madness (if you don't mind the fluff), and willing deformity: tall from Heroes of Horror. Arguably, you can also take extended reach from Savage Species if your DM is particularly willing to let you slide on that.

[odigity]

Grab Stand Still from XPH or the SRD. Your weapon doesn't have the tripping property, so Improved Trip isn't good, unless you've already grabbed it as your 6th level monk bonus feat.

Should I look into tripping? We haven't had the patience yet to start playing with grapple and all the various special attacks (trip, sunder, disarm, bullrush, etc), so it's all sort of vague still, both in terms of mechanics, and in terms of what's actually useful. After we learned about Charge, we started charging everywhere, though. :) That one was simple enough to incorporate.


And yes, that is what happens. It's not exactly new, people have been figuring out this stuff since the game came out.

I'm sure it's not knew to you guys - and thankful, as it means I can get good, field-tested suggestions. :)


Crowd controllers are the only "tanks" in 3.5, whether a crusader with Thicket of Blades, Improved Trip, and Stand Still, or a wizard with Web and Grease.

A beefed up barbarian isn't considered a tank? We've been calling her that... as for crowd control, Entangle seems to me one damn effective spell, especially for first level (we have two rangers, one of which is also a druid).

[odigity]

Edit: I read the post above me. I'm assuming your DM waived the alignment restriction (rogue can't be lawful, monk must be lawful).

The PH says of Rogue "Alignment: Any". Where does it say he must be non-lawful?

I went with Lawful Neutral to satisfy the Monk requirement. His passion is for eliminating concentrations of power in order to eliminate large scale abuses of power, so essential his purpose is to assassinate tyrants. Although he's "lawful", I've said he has a re-interpretation of lawful to refer to "natural law" (common law) rather than "fiat law" (like pay your taxes and don't smoke weed). You can call him an anarchist, though he hasn't yet come to a full understanding of a tangible political philosophy. He's mostly motivated by the tragedy of large-scale disruptions of life, like the holocaust or Chairman Mao. In time, I hope he comes to see that large evils grow from small evils, maybe moving towards Lawful Good near the end, and maybe even having to question the morality of simply murdering those he perceives as responsible.


The main ways to increase reach are to increase size (which increases the range increment of that spear to 10-20, IIRC) (your sorcerer level gives you access to that, if your DM allows you to retrain a spell from your spells known, check PHBII for rules on this), Inhuman Reach from Lords of Madness (if you don't mind the fluff), and willing deformity: tall from Heroes of Horror. Arguably, you can also take extended reach from Savage Species if your DM is particularly willing to let you slide on that.

I'm happy with my two first level spells, and as I'll never gain another level of sorcerer, I'm kind of stuck with them, which is what I wanted. But that doesn't preclude from getting a Ring of Enlarge Person or something like that. So, enlarge person would give me a reach of 10-20' with the longspear? I would have guessed 15-20', with unarmed strike covering 5-10'.

[odigity]

Grab Stand Still from XPH or the SRD.

Took a look at Stand Still, but it doesn't excite me. Isn't it more satisfying (and generally more effective) to score convential hits on enemies rather than simply stopping them in place for a round?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Should I look into tripping? We haven't had the patience yet to start playing with grapple and all the various special attacks (trip, sunder, disarm, bullrush, etc), so it's all sort of vague still, both in terms of mechanics, and in terms of what's actually useful. After we learned about Charge, we started charging everywhere, though. :) That one was simple enough to incorporate.
Tripping + Stand Still is the typical reach AoO build. Tripping is more useful against the enemies with good reflex saves, Stand Still is more useful against bigger enemies and quadrupeds.

A beefed up barbarian isn't considered a tank? We've been calling her that...
Well, it depends on if you think of a tank as something durable and with good damage (like tanks in the real world), in which case, the best tank is a wizard or sorcerer with Displacement, Stoneskin, and a Cloak of Resistance, using Orb of Fire/Acid/Force/etc. and Fireball and Cloudkill a lot.

But for traditional WoW tank? There's not much reason to attack the tough girl with a big axe and good armor over the guy in robes who just used something to speed up the lightly armored guy with the daggers. Or the lightly armored guy with the daggers, for that matter.

as for crowd control, Entangle seems to me one damn effective spell, especially for first level (we have two rangers, one of which is also a druid).

Yeah, those were just examples. Entangle is pretty good.


Took a look at Stand Still, but it doesn't excite me. Isn't it more satisfying (and generally more effective) to score convential hits on enemies rather than simply stopping them in place for a round?
Er, you do make a normal hit, and deal full damage, and the enemy has to make a reflex save or stop.

[Namfuak]

I forgot to mention this, but ascetic rogue could be useful, although since it only would increase your unarmed damage by one level maybe it would not be so useful (in addition to the stunning fist dc increase). Complete Adventurer page 106. Deft opportunist from the same page could also be useful.

[odigity]

Er, you do make a normal hit, and deal full damage, and the enemy has to make a reflex save or stop.

Wait, what? I just read Stand Still, and it said the stopping affect is instead of damage:

"Make your attack of opportunity normally. If you hit your foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + your damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt as if he had used up his move actions for the round."

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Stand_Still

So, in that case I'd rather just attack as normal and do damage, rather than just keeping stopping them and putting off actually killing them.

Now, what's the advantage of trip vs a normal attack? If I succeed, they're prone, right? Next round they get up again, which I think gives me another AoO, which I could use to hurt them or trip them again. If I trip them again, I'm again just putting off the inevitable. If I hurt them with that AoO, well, then why didn't I just do that in the first place instead of the original trip? That's what I'm confused about.

I can see trip being useful if you're tripping someone with the intention of having other party members then hit them when they're down, but I can't rely on that being the case most of the time, especially if I'm taking down 5-10 guys in a round. Seems more effective to just do normal damage to most of them in the first place.

[Voyager_I]

Should I look into tripping? We haven't had the patience yet to start playing with grapple and all the various special attacks (trip, sunder, disarm, bullrush, etc), so it's all sort of vague still, both in terms of mechanics, and in terms of what's actually useful. After we learned about Charge, we started charging everywhere, though. :) That one was simple enough to incorporate.

Tripping is pretty great. It doesn't work against everything (big things, non-humanoid things, and big non-humanoids), but a decently built tripper can lock down a lot of encounters, especially at lower levels when everything doesn't just fly.


A beefed up barbarian isn't considered a tank? We've been calling her that... as for crowd control, Entangle seems to me one damn effective spell, especially for first level (we have two rangers, one of which is also a druid).

There are two aspects to being a tank; first of all, you need to be able to survive being attacked. Second of all, you need a way to keep the enemy from ignoring you and killing your less durable teammates. A Barbarian might be pretty tough, but by midgame they're going to present a much less immediate threat than any of their party's casters, so intelligent (and intelligently played) opponents will just run around them and beat on the priority targets.

Special attacks and abilities like Trip make it much harder for the enemy to do this.

[dextercorvia]

Er, you do make a normal hit, and deal full damage, and the enemy has to make a reflex save or stop.

That's not how it works. You have to give up the damage to get the stand still effect.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Wait, what? I just read Stand Still, and it said the stopping affect is instead of damage:


I skimmed. :smallannoyed:

Ah well, crowd control is pretty good. Keeps the opponents away from the casters. It's probably a good idea to use Stand Still/trip until one of the casters can put down a BFC spell, at which point you can let the spell do its work and go back to damage.

[dextercorvia]

If you can kill the enemy with one shot, then damage is the way to go. However, if that isn't likely, then keeping them in place may prevent them from doing any meaningful action that round. Since you get multiple AoOs that is a good action trade-off.

[odigity]

I skimmed. :smallannoyed:

Ah well, crowd control is pretty good. Keeps the opponents away from the casters. It's probably a good idea to use Stand Still/trip until one of the casters can put down a BFC spell, at which point you can let the spell do its work and go back to damage.

Well, at Monk 8 I have to choose between Improved Disarm and Improved Trip, neither of which I was excited about. I guess I'll take Improved Trip and see what I can do with it.

[Big Fau]

Standstill is good because there will be enemies too big or too powerful to be tripped, or enemies who can shrug off 20 damage on an AoO. Those same enemies have a harder time ignoring you if you prevent them from getting out of your reach completely, even if it costs you damage/attack.

Even better is that it makes them waste their Move action if they fail (and they usually will if you can get a decent damage output). THis means they can't full attack.


That said, you don't need Monk levels to do this. A Spiked Gauntlet and a Guisarme do the job (the damage dice matters less than your other modifiers towards the mid/high levels).

[Flickerdart]

Take Ascetic Mage to get CHA to AC instead of WIS. Then go into Enlightened Fist to get Monk shinies on top of Sorcerer casting.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well, at Monk 8 I have to choose between Improved Disarm and Improved Trip, neither of which I was excited about. I guess I'll take Improved Trip and see what I can do with it.

The great thing about Improved Trip is that it gives you a bonus regular attack against somebody you've tripped, so you're not wasting your chance to deal damage by tripping them.

[rot42]

Tripping is both better and worse than you are thinking, odigity.

1) You get a follow up attack after a successful trip, so you are not sacrificing damage output. In fact, a prone character suffers a -4 penalty to AC so you are more likely to hit.
2) The Attack of Opportunity triggered by standing up occurs before the foe actually rises. You cannot trip a prone character (though they do still get the penalty for being prone).
3) What you want to happen: enemy enters threatened region, gets tripped and stabbed; stands up, gets stabbed again. This foe used a move action to get 10' away from you and a move action to stand up - a full turn of actions, while you still have a full attack to make on your own turn. Look at Curling Wave Strike in Stormwrack if you just want to deny anyone ever moving again.

Reach + Enlarge: as a medium creature, your unarmed strike can attack the adjacent squares and the reach weapon can strike the 10' squares. When enlarged, everything doubles: as a large creature, your unarmed strike can attack things 5' or 10' away, while your reach weapon can attack things 15' or 20' away. There are some useful charts in the back of the Dungeon Master's Guide (page 308 or so).

[Mordokai]

Or a barbarian carrying a spiked chain. With Ferocity (two extra AoOs per round!) and Wolf Totem (Improved Trip in place of Uncanny Dodge at 2nd level, I believe).

Where can I find this Ferocity you speak of and can it be slapped on a crusader for even more controlling potential?

[Flickerdart]

Where can I find this Ferocity you speak of and can it be slapped on a crusader for even more controlling potential?
It's a rage variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) that grants Dexterity instead of Constitution, basically.

[Ryulin18]

Where can I find this Ferocity you speak of?


It's a rage variant (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) that grants Dexterity instead of Constitution, basically.

Hilarious build options with it!

[Almaseti]

Wait, what? I just read Stand Still, and it said the stopping affect is instead of damage:

"Make your attack of opportunity normally. If you hit your foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + your damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt as if he had used up his move actions for the round."

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Stand_Still

So, in that case I'd rather just attack as normal and do damage, rather than just keeping stopping them and putting off actually killing them.

Now, what's the advantage of trip vs a normal attack? If I succeed, they're prone, right? Next round they get up again, which I think gives me another AoO, which I could use to hurt them or trip them again. If I trip them again, I'm again just putting off the inevitable. If I hurt them with that AoO, well, then why didn't I just do that in the first place instead of the original trip? That's what I'm confused about.

I can see trip being useful if you're tripping someone with the intention of having other party members then hit them when they're down, but I can't rely on that being the case most of the time, especially if I'm taking down 5-10 guys in a round. Seems more effective to just do normal damage to most of them in the first place.

Yeah, but you can still hurt them on your turn, but they can't hit you (unless they have 10ft reach) OR run away. That seems pretty effective to me. You hit them and they can't do squat. Maybe not the most effective against mobs, since you only get so many AoOs, but I could see how that could be very effective in some situations.

[Unusual Muse]

The important thing to keep in mind about Stand Still is that it is only triggered by Op Attacks provoked by "a foe’s movement out of a square you threaten". That is, none of the other ways of getting Op Attacks on enemies will allow you to hose their movement/full attacks.

[Unusual Muse]

Also worth remembering that those pesky 5' steps don't provoke Op Attacks, so enemies can still get inside your reach and smack you. If anyone has any great ideas about dealing with 5' steps with this approach, I'd love to hear 'em.

[NOhara24]

Also worth remembering that those pesky 5' steps don't provoke Op Attacks, so enemies can still get inside your reach and smack you. If anyone has any great ideas about dealing with 5' steps with this approach, I'd love to hear 'em.

Crusader + Thicket of Blades + Spiked Chain is probably the best build for what OP is trying to accomplish, to be honest.

Thicket of Blades is what you're looking for though. That coupled with Defensive Rebuke, Stand Still, Robilar's Gambit and Defensive Sweep will make an enemy provoke an AoO just for existing.

[dextercorvia]

Also worth remembering that those pesky 5' steps don't provoke Op Attacks, so enemies can still get inside your reach and smack you. If anyone has any great ideas about dealing with 5' steps with this approach, I'd love to hear 'em.

If you have 10' reach, it will cost them 2 turns of movement to get this to happen.

[Voyager_I]

If you have 10' reach, it will cost them 2 turns of movement to get this to happen.

...during which you are free to trip them with your regular attacks.

[energyscholar]

Combat Reflexes + Reach weapon works very well. I've done a few dozen game sessions using different takes on this type of build. It works particularly well, as people have said above, in combination with additional enhancements. You don't always get AoOs, but you get them often enough to inflict considerable extra damage, on average. You especially excel at fighting multiple opponents.

One alternative approach I'd like to suggest is to use the Combat Reflexes + Reach weapon approach for a martial spell caster. It works particularly well for clerics. The idea is that you use clever tactics to both cast a spell and inflict martial damage with AoOs. In the crucial first round of combat you move 15' away from a melee-oriented foe, use your own standard action to cast a spell, and end your turn. If the foe(s) move in on you then you get to attack them, possibly even giving you multiple attacks. This approach yields excellent action economy. Any class with access to Simple Weapons can do this without spending a feat, using a long spear. You don't even need Combat Reflexes to use the basic approach.

I didn't think of this approach. Credit goes to Brewer and his Reach Cleric guide, and/or some earlier anonymous gamer geeks. I've now tried this approach many times in several d20 variants,and have had pretty good luck with it. These PCs have consistently been able to cast a spell every round and also inflict substantial martial damage. Enlarge Person is enormously helpful.

One big weakness is going into harm's way with neither a big pile of hit points nor a shield. At high levels I don't recommend it, unless you have the above mentioned pile of buffs (e.g. Shield, Mirror Image, Stoneskin, Displacement, whatever). On the bright side, you will rarely receive a Full Attack, because your fighting style encourages you to keep your distance from the foe.

[Rastapopolos]

Needs moar Warshaper? Also would like to clarify... do spiked chains double your characters natural reach? so a regular char would have a spiked chain with reach of 10, medium warshaper would have reach 20, enlarged warshaper would have reach 30, enlarged warshaper with willing deformity (tall) reach 40, and enlarged warshaper with willing deformity (tall) and greatreach bracers have a reach of 60? I would assume you would apply the equipment bonus (double) last but those numbers seem quite nuts to me (can imagine quite a few archers crying if you pull it in your game) bonus points if you have thicket of blades, improved trip, or whirlwind attack + great cleave with a bag of rats to join the fondue...

EDIT, forgot the bag of rats trick only really works if you have whirlwind attack, oh and i can see the greatreach bracers not being doubled as they are equipment too so reach 50 for them?