Warlocks in anitmagic fields/fighting Epic golems

[Cogidubnus]

So I've got a character whose main weapon is (quite effectively) the Eldritch Glaive invocation, but how in the Hells can he contribute anything against with Magic Immunity such as possessed by epic CR golems and Colossi (in that it ignores ALL magic and supernatural effects) or inside an antimagic field?

[Shadowknight12]

Two Words: Backup Weapon.

[Cogidubnus]

Two Words: Backup Weapon.

Which I can't even hit with?

[Seffbasilisk]

Supernatural transformation.

[Shadowknight12]

Which I can't even hit with?

There is only one weapon which is always good in all situations: a spell. You are playing a warlock, who cannot cast spells. Welcome to the world of the fighter. We have goblets of Bitter Tears of Sorrow, freshly shed by those who spent all their feats and class features to specialise in melee weapons and faced flying foes.

[Cogidubnus]

Supernatural transformation.

Doesn't function in an antimagic field, but would allow me to fight golems at least. Now, how does a Warlock manage such a thing powerfully enough to be a threat?

[Alefiend]

There is only one weapon which is always good in all situations: a spell. You are playing a warlock, who cannot cast spells. Welcome to the world of the fighter. We have goblets of Bitter Tears of Sorrow, freshly shed by those who spent all their feats and class features to specialise in melee weapons and faced flying foes.

Wow, did you really miss the antimagic field/magic-immune parts of the OP? They were really rather prominent.

[Randomguy]

3 levels of cleric + initiate of mystra?

Which epic warlock feats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a) did you take?

If you took master of the elements, you've got summoned monsters and minions against magic immunity, and see if there are any elementals with ranged attacks against antimagic field.

If you took shadowmaster, then there should be some conjuration spell of 8th level or lower that can affect the environment around a magic immune opponent. Unfortunately, all shadow conjurations are SR: Yes.

[Cogidubnus]

Wow, did you really miss the antimagic field/magic-immune parts of the OP? They were really rather prominent.

If this were Imgur I would upvote this comment xD especially as as a Warlock, I don't need to cast spells, I can just buy a magic item containing the spell and UMD the heck out of it.

[Randomguy]

If this were Imgur I would upvote this comment xD especially as as a Warlock, I don't need to cast spells, I can just buy a magic item containing the spell and UMD the heck out of it.

Actually, there are spells that can affect magic immune enemies and enemies in antimagic fields. Like orb of X (which you can and should UMD). And Invoke Magic.

[Shadowknight12]

Wow, did you really miss the antimagic field/magic-immune parts of the OP? They were really rather prominent.

No, I didn't, hence why my first post was "backup weapon." He complained that he couldn't hit things with it, so I told him that if he was after a single weapon that could work under any conditions (and yes, spells do indeed work in Antimagic Fields, if you happen to have a few key resources at your disposal), then he should've been a T1 spellcaster.

[Cogidubnus]

Actually, there are spells that can affect magic immune enemies and enemies in antimagic fields. Like orb of X (which you can and should UMD). And Invoke Magic.

Right, the SRD text on the Adamantine Golem, which applies to Mithral Golems and all Colossi as well.


Magic Immunity (Ex)
An adamantine golem is immune to all magical and supernatural effects.

So Orb of X won't work. Or at least, it depends on your DM. Magic doesn't hold the Orb together, it's true. I'll ask. If they agree with it, well, thank you very much :smallsmile:

[Flickerdart]

I believe the standard tactic against them is Shrink Item and heights.

[Cogidubnus]

I believe the standard tactic against them is Shrink Item and heights.

How does *that* work?

[hymer]

Shrink a big rock to something manageable. Fly over the thing that dispels magic. Drop said rock, and let the AM field work for you.
Hugely satisfying.

[Randomguy]

Right, the SRD text on the Adamantine Golem, which applies to Mithral Golems and all Colossi as well.


Magic Immunity (Ex)
An adamantine golem is immune to all magical and supernatural effects.

So Orb of X won't work. Or at least, it depends on your DM. Magic doesn't hold the Orb together, it's true. I'll ask. If they agree with it, well, thank you very much :smallsmile:

Yes, but the SRD text on non-epic golems is:


Immunity to Magic (Ex): An Iron golem is immune to any spell or spell like ability that allows spell resistance.

And I'm pretty sure that the epic level handbook is 3.0, not 3.5, so that would probably override it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Talk to the DM about Instantaneous Conjuration spells like Orb of Acid. Explain how the reason that works against every 3.5e creature with 'magic immunity' or which can fire from outside into an antimagic field. Explain how it is conjuring a completely nonmagical glob of acid from the elemental plane of water or the quasielemental plane of ooze or whatever, and then flinging this *nonmagical acid* at things. Same with Orb of Force; it is flinging nonmagical force, which you again get from the elemental plane of water (just look at Riverine from Stormwrack, that needs water to keep its cohesion, so there is nonmagical Force). It is only the creatures that did not successfully get updates from 3.0e -- most of the epic level handbook stuff, which uses the depreciated 3.0e stats -- which has abilities which say they are 'immune' to spell, rather than infinite spell resistance, like the things that got successfully updated have. There are also several spells which conjure falling [x], be it rocks or whatever, which SHOULD work normally, since they conjure mundane matter from elsewhere, and don't create magically sustained matter.

Also, the shrink item trick is to shrink item boulders, or magma or whatever and drop them into an antimagic field. If it turns into a cloth, tie a little rock to it; when it hits the antimagic field, it will expand to full volume.

[Flickerdart]

How does *that* work?
Take a really dense, heavy object, like lead weights. About 4000 pounds of lead, let's say. That's about 5.6 cubic feet, which is not a problem for anyone that can cast the spell. Shrink Item reduces them to 1 pound in weight.

You then cast Fly, and fly above your favourite target that projects an antimagic field. Drop the weights from a height of at least 200 feet up. As soon as the lead enters the AMF, the Shrink Item spell will be suppressed, and then deal 20d6 (for distance) + 20d6 (for weight) unresistable damage to anything in the target square.

This tactic is feasible at level 5, when you can cast both spells. A regular level 20 caster could Shrink 40 cubic feet of lead, dealing 160d6 damage with one casting of the spell.

The moral of the story is, projecting an AMF kills you dead.

[Alabenson]

Right, the SRD text on the Adamantine Golem, which applies to Mithral Golems and all Colossi as well.



So Orb of X won't work. Or at least, it depends on your DM. Magic doesn't hold the Orb together, it's true. I'll ask. If they agree with it, well, thank you very much :smallsmile:

By RAW, Magic Immunity is treated as unbeatable SR, which means any spell that bypasses SR, such as the aforementioned Orb of (insert source of pain here) line, also bypasses Magic Immunity.

There is also a Greater Essence Invocation, Vitriolic Blast, which accomplishes the same thing.

[Flickerdart]

Actually, if you look closely (or at all) you'll see that the ELH ability also explicitly calls out Supernatural immunity. Supernatural effects have never cared about SR. Hence, this is not merely "unbeatable SR" but a separate ability from the one lesser golems have.

[Armand]

Depending on Golem's type, Vitriolic Blast may work (acid damage no sr, so it can effect creature have magic immunity, but if, I dont know creature also immune to acid, you're out of options pretty much)
You can also fire vitriolic outside of the AM to inside of AM, which again work (remember the acid immunity thing again), beyond that you have no other options, except other options which allready pointed.

Or try to get Divine Rank =D

[Urpriest]

Actually, if you look closely (or at all) you'll see that the ELH ability also explicitly calls out Supernatural immunity. Supernatural effects have never cared about SR. Hence, this is not merely "unbeatable SR" but a separate ability from the one lesser golems have.

False. 3.0 Golems also have that ability.

[Cogidubnus]

Depending on Golem's type, Vitriolic Blast may work (acid damage no sr, so it can effect creature have magic immunity, but if, I dont know creature also immune to acid, you're out of options pretty much)
You can also fire vitriolic outside of the AM to inside of AM, which again work (remember the acid immunity thing again), beyond that you have no other options, except other options which allready pointed.

Or try to get Divine Rank =D

If the DM rules Creation spells to function on Magic Immune creatures/inside an AMF, then Vitriolic will work fine, otherwise it won't.

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember. Instantaneous Conjuration spells create real matter. That's why they work when cast into an antimagic field, or against (3.5e) Spell Immune creatures.

Read this for more details!

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10104.0

[Flickerdart]

False. 3.0 Golems also have that ability.
Yeah, but those got updated in the 3.5 MM.

[Urpriest]

Yeah, but those got updated in the 3.5 MM.

So did the ELH golems. 3.5 updates set precedent that should be followed absent other considerations when using unupdated 3.0 material, as specified in the 3.5 update information. That's why crit range multipliers from 3.0 don't stack, for example.

[legomaster00156]

There is only one weapon which is always good in all situations: a spell. You are playing a warlock, who cannot cast spells. Welcome to the world of the fighter. We have goblets of Bitter Tears of Sorrow, freshly shed by those who spent all their feats and class features to specialise in melee weapons and faced flying foes.
May I put this in my sig?

[Shadowknight12]

May I put this in my sig?

I'd be honoured! :smallbiggrin:

[Tvtyrant]

A Warlock of level 12 or higher can make any magical item, so I suggest a Ring of Telekinesis. Then buy a colossal greatsword or 10, stick them in a bag of holding, and throw them at things that are inside an AMF. The damage is actually pretty optimal (easily 200 damage if you throw all nine) and lets you pierce their shielding. Its a bit of an initial investment, but totally worth it (especially if you have a way to retrieve the weapons like the returning property).