Brawling and Grappling Build

[Torq]

I have a player who is interested in making a Brawler/Grappler. I'm trying to help him with the character build and I've come up with some questions after the first level of the build.

So far, I have:

Race: Goliath

Monk1 [Denying Stance Variant(UA)]: Power Attack (1st), Earth's Embrace (Flaw), Imp. Grapple (Bonus)

Then I think the best bet is to go into Barbarian or fighter. I know Earth's Embrace isn't great, but these players are low to mid optimizers and I couldn't find a heck of a lot of grappling feats.

I advised Power Attack + Great Sword or Falchion for an alternative to grappling when grappling just isn't feasible. After first level, I came across Fling Enemy, which I think could be hilarious to combine with Dungeon Crasher (I'd rule that throwing an enemy at the wall is just as effective as using Bull Rush/Knockback).

What I need clarification on is Fling Enemy. What qualifies as the "ability to throw rocks?" A halfling can throw rocks.

Any other thoughts on a grappling build would be appreciated as well.

[kardar233]

The best grapplers are Black Blood Cultists and Totemists. I can't access the handbook right now, but the Black Blood Cultist handbook is quite comprehensive.

[DemonRoach]

Haven't read through it, but this looks helpful. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=nkpk0padgkd1fv18452jgr8j82&topic=585.0)

[Keld Denar]

Eh, Tash builds > Totemist or BBC builds. Powers > not Powers, and Expansion is the king of the grappling world.

[Torq]

I'm pretty sure one of us has CoR, so that's an option. What's the earliest level that Black Blood Cultist can be entered into?

Still curious about Fling Enemy. Obviously, I'm not worried about accidentally making a melee'er over powered, but I also don't just want to give the feat away if it's meant to be a little harder to obtain.

[Psyren]

What I need clarification on is Fling Enemy. What qualifies as the "ability to throw rocks?" A halfling can throw rocks.

The Rock Hurling feat defines it pretty clearly. "Racial ability to throw rocks" is shorthand for "a racial ability that is equivalent to the Rock Hurling feat"


Eh, Tash builds > Totemist or BBC builds. Powers > not Powers, and Expansion is the king of the grappling world.

You could always go both :smallsmile: Psywar/Totemist/Soul Manifester, or even just a Totemist with Shape Soulmeld (Psion's Eyes)/an elaborate Expansion tattoo.

[Torq]

The Rock Hurling feat defines it pretty clearly. "Racial ability to throw rocks" is shorthand for "a racial ability that is equivalent to the Rock Hurling feat"


Oh. I see the feat now. Same book and everything. Duh.

[Ardantis]

Now, normally I would NOT recommend homebrew, but grapplers are really difficult to make work right, mostly because they're too small. (unless all you want to do is tackle mages at low levels). The biggest problem is that you can't get much bigger than large (or MAYBE huge, if you're lucky) through the use of Enlarge Person or some such.

But check this:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3367.0

This is a link to a homebrew of monster levels for Werewolf (no LA, just these levels). Take note of level 3 of 4, where you are able to spend your additional daily uses of Alternate Form to increase the size of your Were-form. (to Huge at lvl 12, Gargantuan at lvl 16 and Colossal at lvl 20).

Be warned that you are now actually playing a monster, however this monster will be extremely effective at grappling.

[Piggy Knowles]

I've been working on a build that focuses on a few different things, but being a really effective grappler is one of them. The build stub is:

Skarn, Totemist 2/Ardent 2/Monk 1/Scaled Horror 1/Soul Manifester 10/Diamond Dragon 4

I picked up Expansion via Expanded Knowledge, but if your DM lets you choose custom mantles as per the Mind's Eye article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a), that can save you a feat.

Also, Diamond Dragon could be replaced with any PrC that advances manifesting. I picked Diamond Dragon because the pre-reqs were easy and it fit the build thematically. Anarchic Initiate would be better, but would require an alignment shift.

In any case, between Girallon's Arms, Expansion and Grip of Iron, plus Improved Grab from Scaled Horror, you'll be a pretty ridiculous grappler. Plus, you know, you'll have good meldshaping in general and be able to manifest 9th level powers, so that's always a plus.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Go two levels of totemist, so you can bind something to totem (not Girallon Arms, something else), then shape Girallon Arms for a grapple bonus, and invest essentia for even more bonus. Than take Tashalatora (Psychic Warrior), and take about 8 levels in PsyWar, so you can use Expansion, and augment it to make you huge, or effectively gargantuan with powerful build. Maybe also augment it to make it the 10 min/level duration. Then take the rest of your levels in totemist.

[playswithfire]

Monk/Psychic warrior Tashalatora build definitely works.
Another option, which is weaker, but could be fun:
Half-Giant Barbarian* 5/War Mind X with Education (1), Improved Unarmed Strike (Flaw) and Superior Unarmed Strike (3). Use another flaw or take Power Attack somewhere if you want to dip into Fist of the Forest to increase your unarmed damage and get CON to AC unarmored (at which point, you sell your armor and buy a monk's belt).
*Mountain Rage and Bear Totem variants

Or, if you'd consider homebrew and Tome of Battle, a Swordsage with the Giant's Grip discipline in the Tome of Tactics link in my signature can be an effective grappler, either on its own, or replacing the monk levels in a tashalatora build.

[Hiro Protagonest]

*Mountain Rage and Bear Totem variants

Er, Mountain Rage is a substitution level, not a variant. And it doesn't stack with powerful build, so you basically just get +1 for the strength bonus it grants. It's still okay for the +1.

[playswithfire]

Er, Mountain Rage is a substitution level, not a variant. And it doesn't stack with powerful build, so you basically just get +1 for the strength bonus it grants. It's still okay for the +1.

And 10 foot reach, but I agree the Mountain Rage substitution level isn't necessary.

EDIT: and isn't possible since I switched from Goliath to Half-Giant, since the build needed the power points for War Mind. Should have dropped it. My bad.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Spirit Bearbarian gets Improved Grab at level 1, meaning you get to punch something with your oversized Bearbarian fist and then grab them on a successful attack as a free action. Unfortunately, you can't stack these benefits with regular Bearbarian (because you can't trade Fast Movement +10ft. for both Toughness and Improved Grab, and regular Bearbarian is kind of an "all-or-nothing" deal).

[Cieyrin]

You could always go both :smallsmile: Psywar/Totemist/Soul Manifester, or even just a Totemist with Shape Soulmeld (Psion's Eyes)/an elaborate Expansion tattoo.

And by 'elaborate,' I hope you mean Psychic Circuitry and by Psychic Circuitry, I mean this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a). :smallwink:


Go two levels of totemist, so you can bind something to totem (not Girallon Arms, something else), then shape Girallon Arms for a grapple bonus, and invest essentia for even more bonus. Than take Tashalatora (Psychic Warrior), and take about 8 levels in PsyWar, so you can use Expansion, and augment it to make you huge, or effectively gargantuan with powerful build. Maybe also augment it to make it the 10 min/level duration. Then take the rest of your levels in totemist.

Tash doesn't work without monk levels. It's Monk into psionic class of your choice, not the other way around.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Tash doesn't work without monk levels.

...Actually, it does.

But I was assuming he'd keep the monk level.