Earliest way to foil detect thoughts?

[Seharvepernfan]

Say there is a doppleganger in a story about a bunch of less-than-7th-level characters, most of which are 4th or less, in which at least one needs to not have his mind read pretty much whenever.

Dopps have detect thoughts at will, which means they can silently and invisibly spam it while in disguise. How can a low level character (who isn't rich) foil such a thing reliably? A good will save could get you by for a few rounds if you're lucky, but what if the dopp just hangs around?

The only thing that I'm aware of is a ring of mind shielding, which is just way too expensive.

It has to be core.

Help?

[Flickerdart]

First of all, as soon as someone is hitting you with a save, you're aware of saving against something if you succeed. So that would tip them off.

You can also wear a lead-lined suit. By the rules, you need a 1ft wide hole to allow line of effect, so don't have that, and you're golden. I don't remember if you can electroplate with lead or not but I will assume that you can.

The spell requires concentration, which means a standard action every round. If you suspect that you're being spied upon, then move quickly, and the mind reader will not be able to follow you without breaking the spell.

[Lysander]

Learn an extremely obscure language, only think in that.

[Anxe]

Iron Will feat?

[lunar2]

as soon as the will save triggers, you know something is messing with your head if you succeed. start thinking about unimportant things. detect thoughts only picks up surface thoughts, so as long as you concentrate on something useless, the doppelganger gets nothing from you no matter what your will save is.

[Lapak]

Learn an extremely obscure language, only think in that.This is both functional and hilarious.

You said that the party is BELOW 7th level; if they had any way to get their hands on a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability that would do it and it's hours/level.

But it's not all that disastrous; Detect Thoughts only picks up surface thoughts so random scanning isn't going to pick up much. A doppleganger that stands around random people invisible and spamming Detect Thoughts is going to get bored out of its skull with 99% useless information. Bulk up the Will save so that you get a heads-up when you make the first save (as others have noted, you're aware when you save against something) and it should be mostly all right. Have a cleric keep Invisibility Purge memorized and stay as a group. SOMEONE will make their save vs. Detect Thoughts, triggering the Purge if no one is visibly around, then you can make sure that whatever surface thoughts the doppleganger DID get don't get communicated to anyone else.

[Telonius]

as soon as the will save triggers, you know something is messing with your head if you succeed. start thinking about unimportant things. detect thoughts only picks up surface thoughts, so as long as you concentrate on something useless, the doppelganger gets nothing from you no matter what your will save is.

Alternately, think something along the lines of, "Man, my head is itchy. Nothing worse than having an itchy head. Especially when you can't scratch it. Just awful...." Or, "Good lord, he's got something nasty stuck in his teeth. Should I tell him it's there?"

Go on like that for awhile, and see who moves first. (Especially useful if you're in a crowd). Then, do something to the guy that breaks his Concentration.

[macdaddy]

What dm in his right mind would telegraph that by telling you to make a will save? He should know what it is and secretly roll for you, only telling you something of you should know it.

[Lapak]

What dm in his right mind would telegraph that by telling you to make a will save? He should know what it is and secretly roll for you, only telling you something of you should know it.
By RAW, you know if you MAKE a save. One of the OP's big concerns is that the dopplegangers can bypass a good save by lurking invisibly and spamming it until you fail, but people are listing countermeasures to that tactic. It won't save you if you fail your initial save, but it WILL help you if you make your initial save. So the first line of defense is 'Have a strong Will save and adopt mundane countermeasures when you make one.' It's not a cure-all, but it's a good first step.

[Mystify]

So you know you just had to make a will save. You have no clue that it was a detect thoughts. It could have been a dominate effect.

I like the thinking in an obscure language idea, though if the doppleganger can cast comprehend languages it can penetrate it easily.

[Shadowknight12]

Acquire glossolalia. Internalise it to your thoughts. Win.

[rgd20]

Cover your head with lead foil? tin foil?

(sorry I just had to...)

[ericgrau]

electroplate with lead
Doesn't that require... electricity? And related technology. And not lightning bolts but the low voltage kind. But whatever, you could use lead foil, or whatever is enough to count as a "thin sheet".



Cover your head with lead foil? tin foil?
(sorry I just had to...)
I can just imagine an adventurer shouting "My foil hat protects me from strange otherworldly creatures trying to read my miiiiiind!"

[Lysander]

So you know you just had to make a will save. You have no clue that it was a detect thoughts. It could have been a dominate effect.

I like the thinking in an obscure language idea, though if the doppleganger can cast comprehend languages it can penetrate it easily.

Actually, if you read the comprehend languages description, it only says it translates spoken or written words. It says nothing about words that are only thought in someone's head. It's your DM's call.

Of course, by the same token, people don't only think in words, but also images, feelings, and emotions. So the doppelganger might be able to understand some of your surface thoughts even if they can't understand any of the words.

If I were DM I'd say that comprehend language does not work on thoughts. However I'd also say that mind reading can get some rudimentary information even without understanding the target's language. You'd lose all the more complex terminology and a lot of specific details, but you'd still get the gist of what they're thinking.

[ericgrau]

You can even figure out instinctual thoughts of language-less animals.

[Mystify]

You can even figure out instinctual thoughts of language-less animals.
That means you can probably tell that he is hungry, but the secret information that he wants to protect would be safe.

[Flickerdart]

Doesn't that require... electricity? And related technology. And not lightning bolts but the low voltage kind. But whatever, you could use lead foil, or whatever is enough to count as a "thin sheet".
The Ancient Greeks and Egyptians had this technology. It is not especially difficult to replicate even without the aid of magic.

[ericgrau]

The first potential electroplating was 250 BC to 800 AD in Mesopotamia/Iraq, but this is not confirmed and is purely a hypothesis. Practically speaking electroplating was invented in the early 1800s. In both cases it required a battery, something unlikely to be common even in civilizations that dabble a bit.

Foil OTOH is easier, as is quickly dipping metal objects in molten lead since lead melts at a much lower temperature than most anything else.

[Anxe]

The Ancients did have batteries!

Linky (http://www.ideafinder.com/history/inventions/battery.htm)

Relevant Text:
In 1938 a jar was found just outside Baghdad, Iraq (that may be, could be or is believed to be) the first battery. The jar is about 2000 years old from the Parthian period. The jar is composed of a clay jar with a stopper made of asphalt. Sticking through the asphalt is an iron rod surrounded by a copper cylinder. When filled with vinegar - or any other electrolytic solution - the jar produces about 1.1 volts. But, such ancient knowledge in the history of electricity bears no known continuous relationship to the development of modern batteries. Its form, though, is nearly identical to the principles that are in use today

[ericgrau]

...

That's the same battery I was talking about. It's surrounded with speculation and it's unlikely some adventurer would ever find one. Using it for electroplating is surrounded with even greater speculation and doubt. The reason for this doubt is because it is an extremely poor battery and probably couldn't handle it without a large number of them and a very long time.

If you ever want to make your own toy battery you just stick two different metals close together in some kind of solution, such as an acid like vinegar or lemon juice, or a potato. Then connect leads to the two pieces of metal. It can't power anything short of an electronic LCD display or maybe to let you feel a small tingle, but it's a nice bit of a 5th grade novelty item.

[Lysander]

Some important questions we forgot to ask. Do the characters know there is a doppelganger among them? And if so, do they know who it is?

[ericgrau]

The best dopplegangers aren't even suspected until they've killed/looted one of the party members and run off. Once you know there is one in the party it doesn't take long to find out who it is. You spam a bunch of detect spells and unless the doppleganger has a lot of caster levels you'll probably find him with detect evil or some such. Or heck, even basic questioning without any magic. He can't detect thoughts in plain sight without at least one person passing his will save and feeling an uncomfortable mental force at the same time. Then the doppleganger's presence is even more obvious, many more questions come to find out which party member it is, a party member passes his will save so the doppleganger can't figure out the answer to that question and he's hosed.

[Lysander]

Yeah. I know it's not how doppelgangers usually operate, but it sounded like the situation was that the party was aware of the doppelganger and was trying to negate their mindreading ability, without just killing them.

Unless the OP is a DM trying to protect his NPCs from a doppelganger player.

[Jack_Simth]

So you know you just had to make a will save. You have no clue that it was a detect thoughts. It could have been a dominate effect.

I like the thinking in an obscure language idea, though if the doppleganger can cast comprehend languages it can penetrate it easily.
Funny how the people with the best will saves also have ranks in Spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm), which includes: "After rolling a saving throw against a spell targeted on you, determine what that spell was. No action required. No retry."

And, of course, a Ring of Mind Shielding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#mindShielding) isn't out of line.

[Mystify]

Funny how the people with the best will saves also have ranks in Spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm), which includes: "After rolling a saving throw against a spell targeted on you, determine what that spell was. No action required. No retry."

Ok, some people may know what it was. Its still not universally applicable.

[Seharvepernfan]

A ring of mind shielding is out of line, actually. I mentioned that in the first post.

The pcs are 1st level, and nobody in the area is higher than 6th, the area is largely devoid of learned or magic capable people, and the few who are around 6th are martial types. The deal is, a doppleganger is working for a tyrant, who wants his populace monitored. There are rebels trying to bring him down, and he uses the doppleganger to catch or track them. The dopp usually hangs out at taverns in disguise, and is usually with the tyrant when he has an audience in his castle.

Thing is, I was looking for a way for some of those rebel npcs to be able to function in town without the dopp knowing who they are and sending a squad of troops their way. One tavern run by an old 4th level bard is used by the rebels to keep informed and as a relay station for messages and what not, and I want the bard to be able to "play both sides". Which means, work for the rebels while the tyrant thinks you work for him. This wouldn't be possible with a doppleganger coming into a crowded tavern in disguise and reading his mind (though people mentioned how "surface thoughts" and mind ransacking aren't quite the same thing).

I just wanted to make sure there are no holes in this plot/story/plan.

So far, the resistance is basically screwed by what I'm seeing (unless they can get this Dopp).

Note, since the dopp does this in taverns mostly, the people tend to be drunk, which means a lower will save, and of course, headaches or "tingly" feelings.

[Bhaakon]

You can also wear a lead-lined suit. By the rules, you need a 1ft wide hole to allow line of effect, so don't have that, and you're golden. I don't remember if you can electroplate with lead or not but I will assume that you can.

If line of effect needs a 1 ft square hole, then there's no reason to bother with electroplating or foil. Just get some lead wire (which should be trivially easy to find or fashion) and string it through your armor in a way that doesn't leave a 1 ft or bigger gap. Like a Faraday cage for mind reading.

[Lysander]

He's a bard. So to fool the doppelganger, he's in the greatest acting role of his life. Perform and bluff checks inside his own mind.

He knows there's a doppelganger around, though not what he looks like at any given time. So whenever he's in a public place he's constantly thinking good loyal thoughts, or musing on idle subjects like the weather, attractive women, and his aching back. The only time he lets his mental guard down is when he thinks its safe.

In fact, he made a point of going to the tavern several times and drawing attention to himself specifically to get his mind read, so the doppelganger would detect his thoughts and write him off as a harmless old fool. So the doppelganger rarely scans him anyway. And when he does, it's usually when the bard is trying to get his mind read. In fact, this is a great way to feed misinformation to the tyrant.

When safe, the bard also uses detect magic to subtly scan rooms, in order to sense use of magic and determine if the doppelganger is present and using his ability. He also has sense motive up the wazoo, and often can figure out if the doppelganger is around.

[Slipperychicken]

Identify him doing it (Spellcraft DC 17. Not too hard), then beat the **** out of him. He'll also be pointed at you, chanting and waving a copper piece around (unless it's an SLA, in which case you can probably identify it anyway).


Have your character think about steak. All the time. Forever. Roleplay a crippling addiction to steak. Your rations are exclusively steak. Stare blankly and drool at cows whenever you encounter them. If you see a guy concentrating on a spell in your direction, with a confused and disgusted look on his face, that's the Doppleganger.

[Mystify]

Identify him doing it (Spellcraft DC 17. Not too hard), then beat the **** out of him. He'll also be pointed at you, chanting and waving a copper piece around (unless it's an SLA, in which case you can probably identify it anyway).

Its a supernatural ability. It would be useless for a doppleganger if you could tell he was doing it by looking at them.

[Flickerdart]

If line of effect needs a 1 ft square hole, then there's no reason to bother with electroplating or foil. Just get some lead wire (which should be trivially easy to find or fashion) and string it through your armor in a way that doesn't leave a 1 ft or bigger gap. Like a Faraday cage for mind reading.
It specifies "a thin sheet of lead" and wire isn't a sheet by any means.

[Jack_Simth]

OK, so the resistance is trying to foil a doppleganger.

That's different. Here's how you do it.

First, obtain a very wise Elf Ranger with Skill Focus(Spot). You want him at least at 3rd level, so he can also have Alertness. 6 ranks in Spot +2 Racial, +3 Skill Focus, +2 Alertness, +4 Wis = +15 Spot. We're not done, though. This ranger has Favored Enemy(Monstrous Humanoid) for an additional +2, bringing it to +17, and a Masterwork Tool brings it to +19. (5th would be better, for Favored Enemy(Monstrous Humanoid) +4, and 2 more ranks).

Inside your 'meeting hall', you install a lead-lined wall, with a peephole.

Disguise is effectively no retry, as the DM makes the roll in secret.

Spot is a move action to retry.

So, before you do any business with the resistance, you have the Elf Ranger look through the peephole, taking a full minute to take 20, to see if anyone in the room is disguised, with a check result of 39 vs. Monstrous Humanoids. If the Doppleganger is acting 'in character' and using his shapechange ability to make the check (why wouldn't he?), he's got a Disguise check of +21. The Doppleganger needs an 18 to pass, and will only make it 15% of the time.



Alternately: The bard can cast Detect Magic over the room before the meeting. Change Shape is Supernatural, and will register. If anyone asks, you're scanning for anyone who might be carrying illusioned coins.

[Andorn]

Doesn't that require... electricity? And related technology. And not lightning bolts but the low voltage kind. But whatever, you could use lead foil, or whatever is enough to count as a "thin sheet".



I can just imagine an adventurer shouting "My foil hat protects me from strange otherworldly creatures trying to read my miiiiiind!"


Actually, if you melt the lead and then dip the helmet in it, you can give the helmet a nice coating, no electricity required.

EDIT: Wouldn't this interfere with a character's ability to cast spells, though? After all, spell powers are mental, and the spell magic would have difficulty getting out.

[Ettina]

That means you can probably tell that he is hungry, but the secret information that he wants to protect would be safe.

Only if they weren't thinking about it. I'd rule that if that cougar is thinking about going home to nurse her cubs, you'd get a mental impression of where her cubs are, even though that's definitely secret information she'd want to protect.

Now, if you find that same cougar in the process of stalking a deer, all you'd get are impressions of that deer and whether or not the cougar thinks the deer has noticed her. And if she was aware of your presence, you'd probably just get thoughts about the party being large predators and how much she'd like to avoid getting into a fight with you. In either case, you'd have no clue she had cubs because they weren't foremost on her mind at the time.

[Debihuman]

Say there is a doppelganger in a story about a bunch of less-than-7th-level characters, most of which are 4th or less, in which at least one needs to not have his mind read pretty much whenever.

Dopps have detect thoughts at will, which means they can silently and invisibly spam it while in disguise. How can a low level character (who isn't rich) foil such a thing reliably? A good will save could get you by for a few rounds if you're lucky, but what if the dopp just hangs around?

The only thing that I'm aware of is a ring of mind shielding, which is just way too expensive.

It has to be core.

Help?


Wear a thick metal helmet (one inch of metal will do), keep 60 feet from it or make sure it's too busy to spend a round concentrating.

Debby

[ManicOppressive]

So you know you just had to make a will save. You have no clue that it was a detect thoughts. It could have been a dominate effect.


And either way, the proper response is to find whatever made you make a save and kill the ever-loving crap out of it.

[Ettina]

as soon as the will save triggers, you know something is messing with your head if you succeed. start thinking about unimportant things. detect thoughts only picks up surface thoughts, so as long as you concentrate on something useless, the doppelganger gets nothing from you no matter what your will save is.

What does it matter what you think if you succeed the will save? All he knows is your Int score and that you're thinking, not your thoughts.

And if you fail a will save, usually you don't know you've failed unless the effects are obvious. The SRD only says you know if you succeed a save.


A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.

A doppelganger casts detect thoughts as a supernatural ability, meaning there's no obvious signs, and detect thoughts has no direct obvious effect.

[Sheogoroth]

Low intelligence and Wisdom.
Seriously, if you have a low enough intelligence you could make the argument that your thoughts are nonverbal. The closer you are to animal intelligence the harder it should be to interpret the nonsensical yammerings of your inner sanctum into clear and coherent thought. And as you start to encroach upon madness, your thoughts are increasingly likely to be useless to read. Throw in some forms of insanity and I'd say you're good to go.

[John Longarrow]

Step 1) Your DM, so you don't need anything more elaborate than 'he's able to hide'.
Step 2) Make your bard be of a race who's language the doppleganger doesn't know.
Step 3) Your level 4 bard is really a level Level 2 bard / level 1 wizard / level 1 cleric with an 18 wis and the Iron Will feat (net total +13 to Will VS DC 13 detect thoughts).

The save VS detect thoughts is really very low, especially if you do want to push the will save. Doppleganger will figure out pretty quickly he can't read this guy and probably stop trying.

Step 4) Bard has already made Doppleganger enough to recognize one of their normal disguises. Bard has voluntarily failed a save to let the Doppleganger catch his intentional message. Basically he's bluffed the Doppleganger into thinking he works for the Tyrant. Tyrant will have a way to stop the Doppleganger from reading their thoughts, so Bard has Doppleganger convinced he's an agent that the Doppleganger isn't supposed to know about.

Doppleganger isn't going to go to his boss and ask about other agents he isn't cleared for. Bard keeps on rolling.

[Flame of Anor]

Wear a thick metal helmet (one inch of metal will do)

Then make a DC 15 Strength check every round to keep from toppling over...

[nedz]

Wow — serious thread necromancy here folks.

[Hamste]

Wow — serious thread necromancy here folks.

Which incidentally is another solution to this problem. If the bard kills himself and becomes a necropolitan he doesn't have to worry about detect thoughts.

[Jack_Simth]

Which incidentally is another solution to this problem. If the bard kills himself and becomes a necropolitan he doesn't have to worry about detect thoughts.
... other than the big, bold, "It has to be core" in the OP. Seriously, Seharvepernfan used size 5 for it.

[Douglas]

Please do not necro threads.