Allow me to be Contrarian for a moment...

[Gorm_the_DBA]

So you're tasked with defending one of "THE GATES", the big huge, ZOMG, if these fall into the wrong hands the World As We Know It Will END! object of ultimate destruction.

Your only available tools are an Epic level Mastery of Illusions.

Do you *really* think that what's going on in the pyramid is real?

Or is it all an exceptionally well crafted illusion designed to verify the credibility of this random (from your point of view, at least) adventuring party, to make sure they are *Truly* on the right side of this conflict?

[RMS Oceanic]

It's oddly specific for such an illusion to sync up with the timing of Familicide. Why have an illusion of corpses when you could have an illusion of a completely empty and undefended temple?

[Conuly]

I think that unless you're suggesting the Draketooths knew about Familicide when it was cast, the mass murder is probably true.

[Gorm_the_DBA]

I'm saying that there was a particularly suspicious scrying eyeball back a hundred or so strips ago...

And mind reading to find the things troubling the mind of the (perceived) most powerful member of the party (V) is well within the grasp of an Epic level spellcaster.

The rest is a simple application of effort.

[Oakianus]

Yeah, but the scrying was probably Zz'dtri, not Gerard (or Orrin). There aren't a lot of other good explanations for why Nale knew where the party was when they were "out in the middle of the desert last week," or whatever his exact wording was.

Not to mention that this is a pretty odd illusion that syncs up with quite a lot of what we already know. Like the name "Draketooth" implies some sort of connection with drakes, and V did certainly cast the Familicide spell, etc.

If it's an illusion, it's a good one that is utterly indistinguishable from reality in all of the important facts.

[Shale]

The eyeball was Zz'ditri. He casts magic with a green aura, and the Linear Guild was spying on the order, which is how Nale knew they were in the middle of the desert.

[NerfTW]

So you're tasked with defending one of "THE GATES", the big huge, ZOMG, if these fall into the wrong hands the World As We Know It Will END! object of ultimate destruction.

Your only available tools are an Epic level Mastery of Illusions.

Do you *really* think that what's going on in the pyramid is real?

Or is it all an exceptionally well crafted illusion designed to verify the credibility of this random (from your point of view, at least) adventuring party, to make sure they are *Truly* on the right side of this conflict?

No. Because then ANY of the current character development by V right now would be completely pointless. We KNOW Penelope died. Why on earth would that get brought up, when we know she's the direct blood relation of a direct blood relation to the Draketooths, and therefore targeted by the spell?

"Oh, hey guys, PSYCH! She really died of something else"

What on earth would be the point of that?

[ClockShock]

Also, none of the other gates have been particularly well defended - Epic spellcasting or not.

Cloister was a cool effect, but nowhere near the the same level as perfectly crafted illusions hand tailored to the subconscious troubles of the most powerful individual of a party.

Besides, if tailored illusions supported by mind reading were possible there would be more effective illusions than "Oops, looks like we killed the only defences, now we really need to find this gate."

[Spacewolf]

Its possible that its some sort of worst nightmare illusion so if someone wanted to claim the gate they would see it extremly well defended and then be ambushed by the real defenders after being worn down, since the OOTS want to protect the gates they see everone as dead and V having alot of guilt connects it to herself, while this is going on the Defenders are trying to figure out whose side their on.

But at this point it seems fairly unlikely as weve been told its not an illusion and currently have no reason to disbelieve

[NerfTW]

Its possible that its some sort of worst nightmare illusion so if someone wanted to claim the gate they would see it extremly well defended and then be ambushed by the real defenders after being worn down, since the OOTS want to protect the gates they see everone as dead and V having alot of guilt connects it to herself, while this is going on the Defenders are trying to figure out whose side their on.

But at this point it seems fairly unlikely as weve been told its not an illusion and currently have no reason to disbelieve

That's still extremely unlikely unless the author was intentionally trying to piss off the readers. Think about it. We're currently seeing the very extreme consequences of V's spell. We've known something like this is coming. We saw it in the strip it was cast in. It HAS to be dealt with at some point in the strip, and not just in a "V's atonement" sort of way. Everything being said right now is correct. V murdered more than just a few black dragons.

If the current scene was an illusion, then we would be treated to the exact same sequence later on. What would possibly be the point of that.

There's being contrarian, and just flat out ignoring all evidence so you can play devil's advocate.

[Spacewolf]

Yea thats why i said it would be unlikley

[Conuly]

What on earth would be the point of that?

So that people with nothing to say would have something to talk about.

Not that having nothing to say is ever a problem on these forums...!

[Fish]

So the illusions in the canyon read their minds and discovered the party knew about the Gate, knew it was guarded by illusions, and suspected it was in the hands of Draketooth's descendants, and therefore crafted an illusion of the opposite?

That is a remote possibility ... with some ugly bits that don't fit.

Because the illusion also read the party's minds and invented a moral dilemma for Roy, in providing illusory traps for him to deploy the kobold into, and a suicide-inducing guilt trip for V that would ... accomplish what? A system to induce confusion and despair would only weed out people with a conscience — it wouldn't turn aside unrepentantly evil people like Xykon.

I'd say that's a terrible way to guard a Gate.

[Spacewolf]

Well to defend a theory i dont belive to be correct i was saying that the illusion would effect people differently depending on what they want to see so an unrepentantly evil person such as xykon would see a mass of high level wizads ready to attack him, see all his spells fail to effect them etc

As for how it reads the target a Phantasm automatically tailors itself to the subjects perceptions and fears having it effect the group with an equal vision would be abit of epic magic. How fesible that is i really dont know

[Fish]

I think it highly unlikely that a guardian illusion would present itself this way: to Good-aligned people it pretends the Gate is unguarded and still does its best to drive them away ... but to an evil-aligned creature it admits the Gate is there but guarded by invincible army of wizards? I'm afraid I don't see the purpose of driving away allies and challenging the villains. It seems so much more sensible to put these illusions the other way around — give the likes of Xykon an undefended illusory Gate to cast spells at, and give the heroes a reason to think the Gate is in good hands.

Edit: I don't buy the Phantasm idea either. It presented Belkar with an illusion of something he wasn't afraid of, based on a smell he couldn't identify. It could easily have presented the smell of, say, a purple worm or the MitD. And Elan clearly wasn't afraid of traps at all. Lastly, if you were trying to present an illusion of something they were afraid of, the illusion should clearly have indicated that Xykon killed all those guys. They're afraid of Xykon, right? But no, even though this illusion can read minds, it presented them with a non-Xykon-created slaughter.

[BaronOfHell]

That's still extremely unlikely unless the author was intentionally trying to piss off the readers.

Please be so kind to show the courtesy of admitting you do not speak on the behalf of every reader. I for one really appreciates Rich work (I also appreciate your contribution to the general discussions of these boards, btw. The posts of yours which I've read have been a pleasant and logical consistent.) and I'm quite confident that he's able to twist the plot in the way he wants while still maintaining the high quality of the story. Therefore, I'd personally not be, as you put it "pissed" by any such twist, and depending on how it's done, it's very likely I'd also enjoy reading about it.

[Fish]

Nerf's point, I think, is that "it's all an illusion" forces the reader to invest time and energy into a storyline that is ultimately non-productive, the literary equivalent of a shaggy dog story. Drama in good literature (which Rich's comic is, I feel) relies upon the ability to create tension and sustain it.

Tension, or to use Hitchcock's word suspense, is created when the reader believes he knows what will happen. The classic example is the bomb under the table — we know it is set to go off. Right now, the comic has a moment of tension. Xykon is en route; a souped-up Linear Guild looms, and the Gate is (as far as we know) undefeated except by whatever illusions that remain. V is despondent. The Order is in trouble. The tension created long ago by the Familicide spell has begun to pay dividends.

To whisk all that away and say "Surprise! The Gate isn't in danger at all! None of this is real!" would deflate that tension and make it harder to rebuild. Once the reader knows the author can say that, he'll mistrust any future tension. At that point, the reader is onto the author's game. "Ah," the reader says, "this new threat is an illusion too. I won't bother getting worked up about it."

I'm not saying there is never a point to illusions, dreams or hallucinations in fiction. There can be. The author just has to weigh the needs of narrative and drama. Is it worth throwing away tension at this point?

I say no. Though Rich uses comedy, his strip has more in common with a Flash Gordon adventure serial of the 1950s than with "How I Met Your Mother" or other comedy sitcom. In a sitcom, everything is illusion; no matter how bad things get, what silly adventures they have in 30 minutes, it all resets by the next episode and there are no consequences. In an adventure serial, you always leave the audience with a cliffhanger. Stay tuned for text time! You never say in the next episode, "By the way, Captain Crash never went on that atomic submarine with Professor Norton and Billy, it was all a dream."

[BaronOfHell]

I don't think it'd necessarily deflate the tension, because said tension exists in the perception of things (like the reader or V) and not in how things actually are (if the whole comic was an illusion, it'd still be a pretty good comic, despite it never had been real.. and surprise it was actually all made up by a person and nothing of it was real). All it means is that if Girard, or his family, turns out to be alive and happens to interfer at the right moment when all hope is lost, it won't be a deus ex machina. Further more, if any illusions should be storywise valid, they'd have to be able to not only trick the order, but the reader as well. The order can be tricked by the same logic the reader can be tricked, that it doesn't make sense to apply illusions in this way. That's however the only way you can trick someone as "meta" as the order and the readers are expected to be. It means for any illusion to qualify (except for those intended to be seen through), they've to not seem like an illusion at all even to the degree where the majority of readers won't believe it. Which is evidently the case here.

In any case, I'm not going to try to justify one thing or another any further. My point was simply that I personally would not find it a bad move "no matter what" if it turned out this was a "nightmare illusion" or something similar.

[Fish]

Tricking the Order is one thing; tricking the reader is another. The reader must rely on the storyteller to tell him what's happening. If the storyteller lies — he is an unreliable narrator — the reader can lose interest. Readers who begin to doubt everything they're seeing don't stay readers long.

Look at the Moriarty episode of "Star Trek." While everything in the holodeck was an illusion, Picard and Data didn't stay fooled for long, and the viewer was given clues that the normal rules weren't in force (people were left-handed, transporters didn't work, a hologram walked off the holodeck). There was also a bigger threat to the real ship, because threatening an illusion is stupid. While it's remotely possible Rich is pulling that here, I don't see why he would. I could be wrong, of course.

[LordVader]

There's no way Rich would go back on this now; it'd be a massive cop-out of what is an absolutely horrifying and incredibly powerful story arc for Vaarsuuvius.

Stories like this are what set OotS apart from other webcomics that exist purely for humor, and I can't see Rich wimping out now that he's taken it this far.

[Shale]

Having the pyramid turn out to be an illusion at this point would be the literary equivalent of the Fake Namek episodes of Dragonball Z.