Psychic Warrior/Slayer entry [3.5]

[SilverLeaf167]

This is for a back-up character I'm making, probably starting at

I want him to be a Half-Orc Psychic Warrior, with the Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) prestige class.
So far, I think the build would be Ranger 1/Psychic Warrior 4/Slayer 1. The ranger dip is purely for flavor, free Track and easier fulfillment of the skill requirements. I would be picking kalashtar for my Favored Enemy.

So, questions:

I'm not sure which powers and feats I should pick
Can the Slayer's Favored Enemy ability stack with the Ranger's, affecting the same enemy?
Is there any better class choice I could make? I definitely want a Psychic Warrior/Slayer, but the rest is open for discussion


Thanks in advance!

[erikun]

2.) Generally, two different bonuses from the same source do not stack. Technically speaking, Ranger 1/Slayer 1 could both have Favored Enemy: Kalashtar, but you'd only get +2 to bonuses total (and the ranger ones wouldn't improve).

It might be worthwhile to ask your DM if your Slayer favored enemies progress your Ranger ones, especially since you're already picking a psychic enemy for your Ranger choice.

3.) Psychic Warrior/Slayer (or anything melee/Slayer) works out pretty well. You're giving up one manifester level - two, in your case - for full BAB and some nice abilities.

That said, you are losing two manifester levels, and the Psychic Warrior doesn't have that many PP and powers to begin with. You may notice the lack of good powers at times.

1.) What makes a good power depends on what you want to do with the character. That said, Expansion, My Light/Synesthete, Vigor, Concealing Amorpha, and Hustle/Lion’s Charge are some good low-level powers.

Be wary of Inertial Armor and Force Screen, as the first is replicated by almost any armor and the latter can be replaced by a good animated shield.

Remember that the Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) feat can grant you additional powers, including those from other lists. Expanded Knowledge is a psionic feat, and so Psychic Warriors can pick it as one of their bonus feats! (This may be another point against PsyWar/Slayer.)

[Psyren]

1) Powers, feats etc: Psychic Warrior handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1542)

2) I'm fairly sure that Ranger and Slayer's favored enemy's can stack as the bonuses are untyped. So if you e.g. pick Aberration for Ranger and Mind Flayer for Slayer you should ge to double-dip, as they count as both. But the ability has the same name in both classes so that might trip you up.

3) As for better class choice, absolutely - Psion would be much better since they have better powers (up to 9th-level), Int-focus instead of Wis (combine with starting as Ranger and you get tons of skill points to throw around), more PP and Powers Known, and more to gain from Slayer (bigger jump from d4 to d10, than d8 to d10.) And since both Slayer and Ranger give you martial weapon proficiency, you don't need it from Psywar.

Having said all that, Psywar->Slayer certainly isn't bad, just not as good as Psion -> Slayer would be.

[the_archduke]

If you pick humanoid(human) aberration for your ranger Favored enemy, it should stack with the slayer ability. Both are untyped, and kalashtar would be affected by each.

[Psyren]

Kalashtar are humanoids, not aberrations. (You're thinking either Elan or Synad.)

[SilverLeaf167]

1) Powers, feats etc: Psychic Warrior handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1542)

2) I'm fairly sure that Ranger and Slayer's favored enemy's can stack as the bonuses are untyped. So if you e.g. pick Aberration for Ranger and Mind Flayer for Slayer you should ge to double-dip, as they count as both. But the ability has the same name in both classes so that might trip you up.

3) As for better class choice, absolutely - Psion would be much better since they have better powers (up to 9th-level), Int-focus instead of Wis (combine with starting as Ranger and you get tons of skill points to throw around), more PP and Powers Known, and more to gain from Slayer (bigger jump from d4 to d10, than d8 to d10.) And since both Slayer and Ranger give you martial weapon proficiency, you don't need it from Psywar.

Having said all that, Psywar->Slayer certainly isn't bad, just not as good as Psion -> Slayer would be.
On the other hand, if I picked Psion over Psywar, it'd take me much longer to fill the BAB requirement for Slayer; 6 levels. Also, in the end, my BAB and HP would be really low for a frontline fighter.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Actually no, only the highest Favoured Enemy bonus would apply:


If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger’s bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher.

[Rejusu]

I looked over Psychic Warrior multi-classing options a lot recently when creating my PsyWar and frankly unless you're doing the Monastic Training Monk build (despite the fact I'm doing a tripper I decided against this as I wanted reach) most of the multi-classing options don't seem as effective as going pure PsyWar. You might want to consider using something else as your base class.

Secondly any reason behind going half-orc in particular? If you're going PsyWar you're probably better off taking a Psionic race. Two bonus PP may not sound like much but PsyWars are starved for PP.

[Psyren]

On the other hand, if I picked Psion over Psywar, it'd take me much longer to fill the BAB requirement for Slayer; 6 levels. Also, in the end, my BAB and HP would be really low for a frontline fighter.

A second level of Ranger takes care of those issues, and gives you TWF too. Ranger 2/Psion 4/Slayer 10/Psion +4 has mostly d10s, 16 BAB (all 4 attacks), 9th-level powers, and a boatload of skillpoints.

HP is of no concern - even if you didn't have mostly d10s, you have access to Vigor, Share Pain, presumably a psicrystal, and far more PP to power the combo with. And that's before stuff like Metamorphosis, Greater Concealing Amorpha or Iron Body.


Psywar gets in a little earlier, but is weaker in the long run.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're only taking one level of Ranger, use this variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) to get Barbarian Fast Movement at Ranger 1. It ends up costing you nothing if you never take Ranger 2.

You're better off using Ardent or even Wilder over Psychic Warrior, and even Psion would be better due to manifesting. Be sure to check out the Sanctified Mind prestige class in Lords of Magic, it's good for filling out this type of build.

[Draz74]

Don't listen to the naysayers -- PsyWar -> Slayer is a great combination, even if it doesn't have the world-shattering power of the Psion at high levels.


Be wary of Inertial Armor and Force Screen, as the first is replicated by almost any armor and the latter can be replaced by a good animated shield.
At low levels, this is probably good advice. But once you start to gain a decent amount of wealth (and manifester levels), Inertial Armor actually becomes an awesome power, because it means you can buy magic armor that has a bunch of cool enhancements (like Soulfire and Fortification) instead of worrying about AC boosts. Your magic armor can also be something with no penalties, like Padded Armor.

Or, if you're more concerned with just a sky-high numerical AC, Inertial Armor + Monk's Belt is the way to go.


Secondly any reason behind going half-orc in particular? If you're going PsyWar you're probably better off taking a Psionic race. Two bonus PP may not sound like much but PsyWars are starved for PP.

I assumed the half-orc choice was for fluff reasons. If this is incorrect ... yeah, Half-Orc isn't a great choice for this sort of build mechanically.

[Psyren]

Don't listen to the naysayers -- PsyWar -> Slayer is a great combination, even if it doesn't have the world-shattering power of the Psion at high levels.

I did say that it was, you know :smalltongue:

[eggs]

Psychic Warriors have PP troubles even before giving up manifester levels.
Be sure you have abilities to milk your daily PP, produce extra PP or leave you a threat when the PP runs out.

And Erudites make the best slayers by far (barring Ardent ACF abuse). Just having the skills and ranks to fuel Knowledge Devotion is scarier than the extra point of BA, and the extra power access and PP go a long way. And level-appropriate powers never hurt.

[SilverLeaf167]

Oh, Half-Orc was just for flavor and because I didn't think it was too bad with Psywar.
I'll consider the Ranger/Psion entry.

[Draz74]

I did say that it was, you know :smalltongue:
Yes, but then you undermined it by continuing to bring up multiple arguments why Psion was better. :smalltongue:


Psychic Warriors have PP troubles even before giving up manifester levels.
Be sure you have abilities to milk your daily PP, produce extra PP or leave you a threat when the PP runs out.
If your lack of PP becomes a problem, the DM can always throw you a bone by allowing you to find/craft the cheesy-good item known as "+1 Manifester ammunition," which gives you +5 PP for a mere 360 gp.


Oh, Half-Orc was just for flavor and because I didn't think it was too bad with Psywar.
Well, Half-Orc is a weak race in general. But you're right, there's no reason it's particularly bad for a PsyWar.

[Psyren]

Yes, but then you undermined it by continuing to bring up multiple arguments why Psion was better. :smalltongue:

That's because it IS better. That doesn't meant that Psywar -> Slayer is bad, just that it isn't as good.

[Rejusu]

How worthwhile is going into Slayer as a Psy War? I've looked at the class features but they seem to be rather situational. Seems great if you're going up against brain eaters but not so hot otherwise. The full BAB is tempting though and it only costs 1 manifester level. The cerebral immunity is very nice though.

@Psyren: Slayer is D8 Hit die, not d10. So it actually doesn't even change going from Psy War to Slayer.

[Psyren]

@Psyren: Slayer is D8 Hit die, not d10. So it actually doesn't even change going from Psy War to Slayer.

Whoops, was thinking of the Pathfinder version.

But that actually strengthens my position though - PsyWar gets even less out of the class, as now they don't even get an hd bump.

If you want an awesome PrC for Psywar, check out my Meditant guide. The hit die is smaller, but you can end up with double the power points, vast amounts of health, a big boost to natural armor (even at first level) and the ability to go ethereal all day long.

[mikau013]

If your lack of PP becomes a problem, the DM can always throw you a bone by allowing you to find/craft the cheesy-good item known as "+1 Manifester ammunition," which gives you +5 PP for a mere 360 gp.


AFAIK this doesn't work?
Manifest is a flat cost and you only reduce the price of enhancement bonusses not flat costs on ammunition?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ammunition is enchanted in batch of 50 pieces, so 50 +1 manifesting shuriken costs 18000 gp; but technically you don't have to buy it in 50's you could only buy say 5 manifesting shuriken and get 25 extra PP per day for 1800 GP.

Now I agree this is quite dependent on DM's permission; but it is perfectly RAW legal

[Draz74]

How worthwhile is going into Slayer as a Psy War? I've looked at the class features but they seem to be rather situational. Seems great if you're going up against brain eaters but not so hot otherwise. The full BAB is tempting though and it only costs 1 manifester level. The cerebral immunity is very nice though.

Yeah, the class features are very "meh" except for Cerebral Immunity, which is awesome. Cerebral immunity alone is possibly worth losing a manifester level.

Then you just have to consider: are the Slayer's entry requirements worth it just to gain full BAB? Also, one other little often-overlooked perk of the PrC should enter the equation: it has more skill points and a better skill list than the PsyWar.

[Dusk Eclipse]

And Draz here just gave a little edge for Psion-based slayers, as they will have even more skill points due their int focus :smalltongue:

[Draz74]

And Draz here just gave a little edge for Psion-based slayers, as they will have even more skill points due their int focus :smalltongue:

Not really. Psions have a better skill list than PsyWars that they're giving up if they go into Slayer; and "yay! two more skill points per level!" matters less if you were already gaining lots of skill points due to high INT.

[Psyren]

Not really. Psions have a better skill list than PsyWars that they're giving up if they go into Slayer; and "yay! two more skill points per level!" matters less if you were already gaining lots of skill points due to high INT.

Once a class skill, always a class skill though. With Able Learner, you won't even notice the difference; even without it, you'll be able to buy ranks at the cross class rate and still be better off than a Psywar-Slayer would.

[Draz74]

Once a class skill, always a class skill though. With Able Learner, you won't even notice the difference;
That's a corner case, yes. (And reminds me of a lovely Able Learner Psion/Chameleon build I came up with.)


even without it, you'll be able to buy ranks at the cross class rate and still be better off than a Psywar-Slayer would.
Irrelevant to the discussion of whether a Psion or a PsyWar gains more from entering Slayer, which is the argument Dusk Eclipse was bringing up.

[Snowbluff]

Just cross classing the skills should be too bad. 8 level for all of those feats.

I'd like to point out 2 things.

First is The Mantle variant for PSW (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a). It'll give you a Mantle (CP), which will let you choose powers from them, as well as the Mantle Power. One you should note is the one that gives you PP as if your Wis was 2 higher (+10 PP over 20 levels is alright, I guess).

Second, Elan with the Tashalatora feat (Secrets of Sarlona). :3 (Improved) Rapidstrike, Beaststrike, Snap Kick. You become a proficient unarmed fighter, gain Flurry of blows (read it, you get 2 attacks over 11 levels. Do not look at the chart, that's for a Monks BaB), Wis to AC as Monk, and Unarmed Strike as monk. Stacking extra hits works great with Favored Enemy. You can take Knowledge Devotion as well, since your enemy is PSI and you have the Know:Psi skill as well. Also, their is an [Exalted] feat that'll let you Atk with Wis instead of Str. Could be nice.

Take Expansion, Metaphysical Claw, Inertial Armor, the shield one, Claws of the beast, Bite of the Werewolf, and Hustle ("Why Pounce when you can hustle" -Snowbluff). Metamorphosis from the Natural World Mantle (normal you'd need Expanded Knowledge, but the Mantle ACF helps) to become something with more Str than yourself, like a Gnoll or something. Becomeing a Choker with the Metamorphic Transfer, you can use it's Quickness (Su) 3 time/Meta, which is enough for 2 Full Attacks/round. (might be really cheesy). Don't use Meta for cheese, just so you can take Wis over Str and other Physical stats. Grab a few PSI feats, too.

I'd go PSW11(for Max Flurry Progression), Slayer 9

Items:
take a +1 Aptitude Necklace Natural Attacks (SS for the Necklace, ToB for Aptitude weapon) and apply it to your Bite (and Claws for x2 the cost) so (Improved/normal) Rapid Strike (Claws) will affect your Bite as well. You could add your Unarmed to the Necklace as well, but it's expensive enough as it is. Just mod it With Metaphysical Claw.

MultiAttack will Reduce the penalties for using Bite and Claws as secondaries.

Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic) for Imp Unarmed (ask to retrain it out of your build?) and Imp Natural Attack (Unarmed), which will affect your bite + claw with the Aptitude Necklace.

Monk's Belt for +5 Monk Levels.

Custom Item for +6 Wis (you can't have a Periapt of Wis with your Necklace).

Quori Power Links. Magic Ebberon. Ask you DM if he'll let you use them as Elan. :3




Might be a little hard to do this and Slayer at the same time, though without at least 14 int.

[Psyren]

Irrelevant to the discussion of whether a Psion or a PsyWar gains more from entering Slayer, which is the argument Dusk Eclipse was bringing up.

It's not; when you have a great skill list from which you have to buy ranks cross-class, having 20+ Int makes that exchange rate much easier to swallow.

[Snowbluff]

It's not; when you have a great skill list from which you have to buy ranks cross-class, having 20+ Int makes that exchange rate much easier to swallow.

Yes, but at the same time You are losing feats and BaB. It's a worthwhile trade off, but if you're focusing on Melee your output will suffer.

[Rejusu]

Yeah, the class features are very "meh" except for Cerebral Immunity, which is awesome. Cerebral immunity alone is possibly worth losing a manifester level.

Then you just have to consider: are the Slayer's entry requirements worth it just to gain full BAB? Also, one other little often-overlooked perk of the PrC should enter the equation: it has more skill points and a better skill list than the PsyWar.

Well the entry requirements aren't too steep. Four ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneering) isn't really problematic, I get three skill points per level (thanks to a +1 int) and aside from Concentration and Autohypnosis I don't really have any other skills I feel are that necessary. I put 1 point into Knowledge (Psionics) for trained checks and then just dumped the rest in Tumble (which I'll probably not make much use of). Only problem is PsyWar doesn't have it as a class skill. I might be able to fudge it though if I talk it over with my DM. Maybe I'll see if he'll let 4 ranks of Knowledge(Psionics) count, after all Slayer is based around killing Psionic creatures.

The only real annoyance is having to dump a feat for Track. Way I see it is:

Benefits:
- Full BAB
- Only lose one manifester level
- Awesome Cerebral Blind, Cerebral Immunity, Lucid Buffer (+4 against all mind affecting effects even while unconscious) powers.
- More skill points and better skill list.

Drawbacks:
- Costs a kind of useless feat
- Loses one manifester level
- Same hit die
- Other class features are very situational, even the awesome ones are kind of situational.
- PsyWar doesn't have Knowledge (Dungeoneering) as a class skill.
- Loses four bonus feats (probably the biggest drawback).

I asked my DM whether we'd be encountering much psionics and he seemed to imply we might, but he's being very coy about it. I have about 5 levels in which to evaluate whether it's worth it or not though.


Whoops, was thinking of the Pathfinder version.

But that actually strengthens my position though - PsyWar gets even less out of the class, as now they don't even get an hd bump.

If you want an awesome PrC for Psywar, check out my Meditant guide. The hit die is smaller, but you can end up with double the power points, vast amounts of health, a big boost to natural armor (even at first level) and the ability to go ethereal all day long.

Interesting read, hadn't seen that PrC before. I don't think I'll go for it though, the lower hit die and the massive feat cost are big turn off's for me. Plus it doesn't have full BAB and I don't think it's worth dipping out of PsyWar for anything without full BAB. Thanks for the suggestion though. Maybe I'll look at the PF Slayer and see if my DM will let me use that... >_>

[Psyren]

Yes, but at the same time You are losing feats and BaB. It's a worthwhile trade off, but if you're focusing on Melee your output will suffer.

How are you losing BAB? Slayer is 10/10.


Interesting read, hadn't seen that PrC before. I don't think I'll go for it though, the lower hit die and the massive feat cost are big turn off's for me. Plus it doesn't have full BAB and I don't think it's worth dipping out of PsyWar for anything without full BAB. Thanks for the suggestion though. Maybe I'll look at the PF Slayer and see if my DM will let me use that... >_>

Yeah, it costs a lot of feats, but at least you get your money's worth. How many feats get you spell resistance, natural armor, untyped stat boosts, or bonus power points (all at your option?) They're useful when you get them, and stay useful your entire career.

[Snowbluff]

How are you losing BAB? Slayer is 10/10.


I was talking about entering as the Psion.

[Psyren]

I was talking about entering as the Psion.

I disagree that your output will suffer - more PP and higher PL easily compensates for the basic BAB and feat losses. It means you have more to spend on Offensive Precognition, more to spend on DH/PLC pouncing, faster access to defenses like GCA, Intellect Fortress, Metamorphosis to keep you on the front line longer etc.

Even if +ML arrows are allowed to help with your ammo, they don't get you to higher-level powers faster, and PsionSlayers can use them too.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I think some of the strongest tricks are being overlooked:

Share Pain on your Psicrystal and Vigor shared with your Psicrystal halves the damage you take, and gives you a 10 hp per pp buffer.

Control Body on yourself and Solicit Psicrystal allows your Psicrystal to spend its actions every round making you physically attack, using your own BAB and Int bonus, and adding your Int bonus to your AC. That leaves your mind free to manifest powers and regain psionic focus every round while your body full attacks. You can also use Schism and manifest another power every round, which is extremely useful if you need to spam Vigor.

There's just no way a Psychic Warrior would ever have enough powerpoints to make use of those tricks, even if he did take Expanded Knowledge enough times to learn all those powers.

[Psyren]

I mentioned the V-SP combo in post #9.

Move By Wire is indeed a fun trick, but I'm always loathe to use it because it makes you unable to AoO (and arguably makes you vulnerable to sneak attacks.)

[Arbitrarious]

If you are still keen on a psychic warrior entry and your DM isn't adverse to homebrew you may look at the Sleeping Goddess discipline by the Demented One. It's first level stance is Battle Mantra which allows the recovery of 1 pp with each successful melee attack. As long as your DM does like most do for the Devoted Spirit healing maneuvers, saying only relevant melee attacks count not bags of rats, then its fairly balanced at level 5+ and a little strong before that. Though as a psychic warrior it probably wouldn't be too bad. Since it's a stance you can ignore ToB almost entirely and just say the ability has a 2 feat tax as none of the first level strikes are all that useful.

Really the psychic warrior PP progression has always seemed too weak to me, I opt for ardent or psion usually because of that. Well in any case have fun!

Link: www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5408276

[mikau013]

Technically the control body trick doesn't work by RAW though.
Because Solicit Psicrystal is not actually usable by RAW. Since you can't manifest powers while concentrating. :smallsigh:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Technically the control body trick doesn't work by RAW though.
Because Solicit Psicrystal is not actually usable by RAW. Since you can't manifest powers while concentrating. :smallsigh:

Did you even read Solicit Psicrystal? That's what it does, you manifest it while you're maintaining concentration on a power and your psicrystal takes over concentration for you.


Your psicrystal takes over the responsibility of maintaining concentration on any single power you have manifested and are concentrating on.

[Psyren]

He means the general rule here: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#concentrationDuration) "You cannot manifest a power while concentrating on another one." However, Solicit Psicrystal is a specific exception to the general rule as the quote shows.

[Snowbluff]

I disagree that your output will suffer - more PP and higher PL easily compensates for the basic BAB and feat losses. It means you have more to spend on Offensive Precognition, more to spend on DH/PLC pouncing, faster access to defenses like GCA, Intellect Fortress, Metamorphosis to keep you on the front line longer etc.

Even if +ML arrows are allowed to help with your ammo, they don't get you to higher-level powers faster, and PsionSlayers can use them too.

Keep in mind that Metamorphosis is only ever a Feat or ACF away for PSW. They also almost every other relevant buff anyway. The extra feats can be put toward feats That grant Extra Attacks, they can dump Str and Dex with Meta, letting you pour points into Wis for extra PP. The extra BAB simply makes qualifying for feats and actually FIGHTING early on no problem at all.

Besides, I was agreeing with you. Psion is T1. It's just at that as a Full Caster, there is no point in gishing since your powers are already so strong its raises eyebrows why you'd try anything else. If you are gimping yourself by going for melee over casting, why not just gimp yourself while taking a more melee-friendly class instead?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Actually Vanilla Psion is tier 2, Erudite (particularlly StP) on the other hand is tier 1

[Snowbluff]

Actually Vanilla Psion is tier 2, Erudite (particularlly StP) on the other hand is tier 1

Wow, right. That makes psion a much less powerful option. You're hurting yourself a lot more when you are restricted by powers known and are spending some of those powers on a strong melee focus. :s Still, other than that the difference between T2 and T2 is moot for every other reason than that.

[Psyren]

Wow, right. That makes psion a much less powerful option.

This is what confuses me about your argument - you claim to be agreeing with me, but then make statements and conclusions I couldn't possibly agree with. You're only "less powerful" compared to a straight psion, which obviously you didn't want to be in the first place if you're considering Slayer at all, so that is a sunk cost fallacy. Compared to a Psywar Slayer, you have the decidedly MORE powerful option.

As for Metamorphosis: The Psywar gets it at 13th with the feat, or 10th if you use the ACF (which also costs you a feat.) The Psion meanwhile is getting it as early as 7th or 9th depending on discipline.

And finally, "spending your powers on a melee focus" isn't a problem either, since you have nearly twice as many powers as a Psywar anyway. You can spend exactly the same number of powers on melee as a Psywar would and still have plenty left over for other things.

[Snowbluff]

This is what confuses me about your argument - you claim to be agreeing with me, but then make statements and conclusions I couldn't possibly agree with. You're only "less powerful" compared to a straight psion, which obviously you didn't want to be in the first place if you're considering Slayer at all, so that is a sunk cost fallacy. Compared to a Psywar Slayer, you have the decidedly MORE powerful option.

As for Metamorphosis: The Psywar gets it at 13th with the feat, or 10th if you use the ACF (which also costs you a feat.) The Psion meanwhile is getting it as early as 7th or 9th depending on discipline.

And finally, "spending your powers on a melee focus" isn't a problem either, since you have nearly twice as many powers as a Psywar anyway. You can spend exactly the same number of powers on melee as a Psywar would and still have plenty left over for other things.

Less powerful to Ardent.* :P
If you were an Ardent you could wake up one day, decide you'll scoop up your melee feats/PSY Reformation, and set up yourself for melee. If you spent as many powers as the PSW, you have 16 remaining in total. Assuming similar Wis/Int scores (for the reason stated above), and the Mandatory 2 Full BAB dip (You ARE a melee, you WILL build as one), and that you are spent as many points into those abilities as the PSW (100% of his pool) you have a total 165 points to spend on those. Which is not what I am arguing, I agree with the Psion being stronger and more versatile overall.

Also, didn't know that you don't get a feat at 12th level. Regardless, its a one feat cost either way, just taking it with the Mantle makes it a significantly lower level feat

It's not just spending powers though. You are spending everything on being a less powerful. If you don't go 100% melee featwise, powerwise (well, not entirely, but it's still alot of powers), itemwise, dipwise. you are suffering in your chosen respect to a PSW in respect to melee, the focus which we are regarding. This is my arguing point. In addition, you have to spent feats on some of the powers that PSW gets that you don't. This changes the balance of PSI/melee powers a little, keep that in mind.

Also, keep in mind that you'll need 2 levels in a Full BaB Class to get the Mininum 16 BaB. Not an argument point, just something that you should know for building this character. Do we have any tips for the OP for these levels? Fighter gets my vote for the feats, which could be pretty useful.

[SilverLeaf167]

A little (or a lot) off-topic, but does anyone know of a good homebrew fix for Soulknife, and Soulbow if possible? I'm just exploring my options, and I like the concept of those classes but the execution sucks.

[Snowbluff]

A little (or a lot) off-topic, but does anyone know of a good homebrew fix for Soulknife, and Soulbow if possible? I'm just exploring my options, and I like the concept of those classes but the execution sucks.

Ooh. Super Super easy fix right here. Ask for PSW psionic progression. Not Psion-powerful, but better than nothing.

[Rejusu]

A little (or a lot) off-topic, but does anyone know of a good homebrew fix for Soulknife, and Soulbow if possible? I'm just exploring my options, and I like the concept of those classes but the execution sucks.

Soulknife isn't very good and could use fixing... but Soulbow? Soulbow is actually what makes levels in soulknife worthwhile as it's a very solid archery class that's easily T3. I played one once and I could do silly amounts of damage a turn... provided I actually hit the target of course. But Zen Archery makes it an incredibly SAD class, Wisdom and Con become your primary attributes and everything else is secondary.

It's also worth noting that firing a soul arrow only requires one hand so you can use a shield with it too. You can build it to have respectable AC, HP and saves too so you're not just a glass cannon. However you are very much a one-trick-pony. It's a great trick, but all you do each turn is use your move action to gain psionic focus and then your standard action to fire a bolt charged with psionic shot.

Due to it's ability dependencies too it's also not very viable if you're starting from level 1. Have fun being a melee fighter type with a great wis and con but not much else. If you're going to build it though only take the minimum 2 levels of Soulknife (for the throw SB prereq), dip into 2 fighter for the full BAB and bonus feats, then round it off with a 1 level dip into something else. Ideally that last dip wants to be into something with full BAB, I went Barbarian for my build but there's probably better options.


Ooh. Super Super easy fix right here. Ask for PSW psionic progression. Not Psion-powerful, but better than nothing.

What? Psionic power progression? Soulknife isn't great but I think giving it the PsyWarrs manifesting ability would tip the balance too much. Yeah you lose the bonus feats that PsyWarr gets but the SK class features more than make up for that.

[SilverLeaf167]

What exactly makes the Soulbow's damage that spectacular? After all, the only real difference to a mundane archer is the Wis to damage, which probably won't be that huge anyway. You also have only medium BAB, while most classes used as archers have full.

[Snowbluff]

What? Psionic power progression? Soulknife isn't great but I think giving it the PsyWarrs manifesting ability would tip the balance too much. Yeah you lose the bonus feats that PsyWarr gets but the SK class features more than make up for that.

Yeah, I guess you're right about the feats. Either way I believe the Soulknife would do well to have some Psionics. It fits with the flavor, at least.

...actually, no. Soul Knife has NOTHING for class features past Psychic Strike worth a damn. You can do a lot more with Feats than you can with what Soulknife gets.

Mindblade enhancement is nice, but you only save a bit of gold with that. Throw Mindblade is a Ranged Attack. Nothing more, nothing less.
The bonus feats are mostly things you wouldn't take anyway.
Psychic Strike only affects one attack and takes a move action. (You want Hustle)

[Psyren]

It's not just spending powers though. You are spending everything on being a less powerful.

Eh, as long as you're strong enough to handle level-appropriate encounters everything else is gravy in my book. Not every build has to shake the world.


A little (or a lot) off-topic, but does anyone know of a good homebrew fix for Soulknife, and Soulbow if possible? I'm just exploring my options, and I like the concept of those classes but the execution sucks.

Did you look at the Pathfinder Soulknife? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) It's easy to bring back to 3.5.

If you want a "less than Psywar" power progression to give to it, you have a lot of options - you can use the Psychic Rogue's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b), the Divine Mind's, even the Psionic Ranger's (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/ranger). Or get Psionics Expanded for the Gifted Blade archetype.

[SilverLeaf167]

Wow, the PF Soulknife looks great. Let's just hope the DM allows it... Thanks a lot for that, anyway!

[mikau013]

Did you even read Solicit Psicrystal? That's what it does, you manifest it while you're maintaining concentration on a power and your psicrystal takes over concentration for you.

Did you ever read the manifesting rules? They specifically forbid you from manifesting while concentrating, thus you can't manifestate solicit psicrystal.

[Rejusu]

What exactly makes the Soulbow's damage that spectacular? After all, the only real difference to a mundane archer is the Wis to damage, which probably won't be that huge anyway. You also have only medium BAB, while most classes used as archers have full.

The main benefits are being SAD, no need to have high Dex and Str as all you need is a good Wis score and easy access to the Psionic Shot and Greater Psionic Shot feats.

I wish I had my old character sheet so I could see how much damage it could do in a single attack. By level 7 though I think it was d8 + 4d6 + 1d6(fire) + 4 wisdom damage but I'm sure I had a way to add another damage die on to that. The loss of BAB isn't an issue since to add the 4d6 you need to expend you psionic focus so you'll never be full attacking because you'll be using your move action to refocus.

Plus if you wanted to be a little cheesy you could go into vow of poverty with it easily.

[Snowbluff]

Eh, as long as you're strong enough to handle level-appropriate encounters everything else is gravy in my book. Not every build has to shake the world.

Agreed. Frankly, either build could become obnoxious VERY quickly before feats. Meta in a Huge creature, Augmented Expansion, you become ridiculously size for hardly anything.

[Draz74]

Did you ever read the manifesting rules? They specifically forbid you from manifesting while concentrating, thus you can't manifestate solicit psicrystal.

I suppose you don't allow Monks to be proficient with Unarmed Strikes, either?

[classy one]

I would say to not use slayer at all and go with ghostbreaker and or Sancitfied mind instead. Sanctified mind is only 6 levels 5/6 ML and full BAB. Plus it's class features are more useful in more situations than slayer. It gives you resistance to being dazed or stunned and even let's you do certein actions while incapacitated.

Really, how often do you have to worry about your brain being eaten? And while cerebral immunity sounds great on paper, do you really think your DM couldn't get info on your PC in other ways (like a good old fashioned spy in the dark)? It's capstone is also purely for illithids as well no matter if you read it from SRD or XPH.

Ghost breaker is very specialized but it's like only 5 levels, full BAB and full ML. So it is a small investment if all you wanted was BAB and ML. It also gets turn undead so you maybe able to cheese it up with DMM.

[Psyren]

Did you ever read the manifesting rules? They specifically forbid you from manifesting while concentrating, thus you can't manifestate solicit psicrystal.

Except Solicit Psicrystal specifically allows you to do this. Specific trumps general.