4e and PC's as opponents?

[WarKitty]

So I'm going to be DM'ing a 4e one-shot game. I was thinking of (at the risk of being hackneyed) doing an evil doppelganger type of encounter. The thing is I haven't found much in 4e that describes how to use PC classes as opponents. Is it ok to just throw equal-leveled characters at them, or will that cause any special problems? This is a one-shot that's isolated from the main game, so I want them to have no more than a 50-50 chance of winning.

[Tegu8788]

Because of daily and encounter powers, a one off baddie will full out nova from the word go, where as your players need to save powers for other fights. If its the only battle of the day, then both sides just nova. If you want a fifty fifty split you go it. In most cases, whoever goes first wins. PCs have low health and do tons of damage, whereas monsters have high HP and do low damage. Look at your players' powers. How long would it take each of them to kill themselves.

If you want to post what each player is, I'd wager the playground can find something with a similar feel, or can be refluffed easily to act as a balanced doppelgänger.

[Doug Lampert]

So I'm going to be DM'ing a 4e one-shot game. I was thinking of (at the risk of being hackneyed) doing an evil doppelganger type of encounter. The thing is I haven't found much in 4e that describes how to use PC classes as opponents. Is it ok to just throw equal-leveled characters at them, or will that cause any special problems? This is a one-shot that's isolated from the main game, so I want them to have no more than a 50-50 chance of winning.

The problem with PC type enemies is that PCs have fewer actual HP than standard monsters and offense comparable to an elite monster.

PCs are expected to win a "patrol" encounter fairly easily because their healing powers more than make up for the relative lack of HP.

A monster built as a PC won't have any time to use the healing powers and will be a pushover, it NEEDS those extra HP since it lacks healing resources. A PC striker using action points and dailies can kill (dead not just down) another PC in a single round.

This doesn't work well. Go to your DMG and the errata and get the (updated) guidelines for building a monster. Ignore the class templates and the NPC builds, you're just building a monster, there's a reason they completely dropped those two ideas prior to the PHB3. Build a monster with powers LIKE those of a PC, elite if you want it to be a decent match for a PC, standard otherwise. Use that.

[WarKitty]

Because of daily and encounter powers, a one off baddie will full out nova from the word go, where as your players need to save powers for other fights. If its the only battle of the day, then both sides just nova. If you want a fifty fifty split you go it. In most cases, whoever goes first wins. PCs have low health and do tons of damage, whereas monsters have high HP and do low damage. Look at your players' powers. How long would it take each of them to kill themselves.

If you want to post what each player is, I'd wager the playground can find something with a similar feel, or can be refluffed easily to act as a balanced doppelgänger.

They're only going to have one battle of the day, so I'm expecting them to go nova.

Here's the guys I have (not all of them may be showing up):
Wizard - sort of controller-y, our AoE guy
Ranger - damage. Lots and lots of damage
Paladin - mostly good for marking people and taking up damage
Fighter 1 - interrupt-focused build, mostly used to defend the strikers
Fighter 2 - strikery build, does a lot of damage
Rogue - really good if she can get combat advantage, a liability otherwise
Bard - the healer, with a side of moving people around

I was also debating nerfing the PC levels and other goodies that the monsters get (my PC's are level 3) in exchange for a bit of tailoring to make them specifically designed to be powerful against the PC's. I want to make my strategists work as well.

Edit: Can you tell I'm a 3.5 DM? I'm trying to find the best way to bring my DM'ing strengths into the new system.

[Tegu8788]

Another reason not to run 7 PCs all on your own, is there are a ton of options to keep track of by that level if you have seven characters to control. You already have seven players which can make things slow, imagine doubling the length of the battle, more-so because you'd be less likely to be as familiar with every option as they are. Is the ranger using a bow or blades? Look at the different monster types (artillery, lurker, brute,...) in the DMG (unsure the page, I don't have one) and that should give you an idea of how to match the players against the monsters. Others with actual DMing experience should be with you shortly.

And don't worry about having a 3.5 perspective, I'd wager the vast majority of people here has had that at one point or another.

[WarKitty]

Another reason not to run 7 PCs all on your own, is there are a ton of options to keep track of by that level if you have seven characters to control. You already have seven players which can make things slow, imagine doubling the length of the battle, more-so because you'd be less likely to be as familiar with every option as they are. Is the ranger using a bow or blades? Look at the different monster types (artillery, lurker, brute,...) in the DMG (unsure the page, I don't have one) and that should give you an idea of how to match the players against the monsters. Others with actual DMing experience should be with you shortly.

And don't worry about having a 3.5 perspective, I'd wager the vast majority of people here has had that at one point or another.

Ranger is using a bow.

My ideal here is to make it so they can pair each other properly, but if they don't they will lose - e.g. the right action would be to put Fighter 1 up against the ranger, as she has reach and can punish him for attacking within range and for moving out of range. Or use the bard to kill the rogue, because he's good at moving people around and she has low AC and HP.

But yes, I've never DM'd 4e before. There's so much weird stuff with having completely different roles for monsters than players, I feel like I can't learn all this and build an encounter in just a few days, so I'd rather stick to stuff I'm familiar with if at all possible.

[Tvtyrant]

The monsters are much simpler than characters, so I would suggest simply cherry picking monsters that fulfill class roles.

For instance, the Aboleths from the first monster manual work pretty well in this; have four Lashers, 2 Slime Mages and an Overseer. The Overseer immediately goes invisible and turns one of the Lashers invisible, the Lashers all work to gain combat advantage so they can make multiple tentacles attacks, and the Slime Mages use their bursts when someone tries to get close.

[Tegu8788]

While pairing off is dramatically interesting, I'd be prepared for the likely scenario that your players try to focus fire to down certain monsters quickly. Having only one "right" solution is likely to draw player ire. Pick up on the tactics your players are using, and copy those, and that will make for even better copycat action. When the bard attacks, what happens? Aside from sliding and healing? You can add the "Leader" property to any of the monsters to make things tougher for your players, but as far as I know there aren't any monsters that are healbots (what I know doesn't go that far, be forewarned).

[WarKitty]

The monsters are much simpler than characters, so I would suggest simply cherry picking monsters that fulfill class roles.

For instance, the Aboleths from the first monster manual work pretty well in this; have four Lashers, 2 Slime Mages and an Overseer. The Overseer immediately goes invisible and turns one of the Lashers invisible, the Lashers all work to gain combat advantage so they can make multiple tentacles attacks, and the Slime Mages use their bursts when someone tries to get close.

That...kind of misses the point of the scenario. I want to give them something different from "here's yet another set of monsters to kill."


While pairing off is dramatically interesting, I'd be prepared for the likely scenario that your players try to focus fire to down certain monsters quickly. Having only one "right" solution is likely to draw player ire. Pick up on the tactics your players are using, and copy those, and that will make for even better copycat action. When the bard attacks, what happens? Aside from sliding and healing? You can add the "Leader" property to any of the monsters to make things tougher for your players, but as far as I know there aren't any monsters that are healbots (what I know doesn't go that far, be forewarned).

I'm trying to hit the balance between having a single right solution (which I wasn't planning) and having a battle that's winnable by just charging in headlong without thinking. I want them to have to sit back and think about the best way to approach this, rather than just run in and start killing things. There's several players in the group that get bored with that approach.

[The_Pyre]

Just make it a pretty tough encounter, using the guidelines. As soon as the players figure out they're up against the bad stuff, they'll automatically switch to teamwork and tactics (either that, or die a slow, painful death). Just fill in the monster roles, refluff into PC doppelgangers, and be very smart about your actions. I don't know about your players, but most will usually step up their game rather than die. :smallbiggrin:

[WarKitty]

Just make it a pretty tough encounter, using the guidelines. As soon as the players figure out they're up against the bad stuff, they'll automatically switch to teamwork and tactics (either that, or die a slow, painful death). Just fill in the monster roles, refluff into PC doppelgangers, and be very smart about your actions. I don't know about your players, but most will usually step up their game rather than die. :smallbiggrin:

It's more than that. We've faced a lot of tough encounters...I want to give them something different. Something where their standard "strikers kill everything from behind a wall" doesn't actually work.

[Tegu8788]

Unless you can use terrain to split the party, one on ones are pretty unlikely, however a two on two or four on four would be easier. 4e is very team combat centric, where it's harder to stand alone. This is a change. If you set up your team with solid tactics you can make it challenging. Terrain can help split them up, and make it more tactically challenging for your players. Some of the boredom may be caused by the number of them waiting to take their turns. There are several tricks to speeding up combat, which may help with the boredom. Boost monster damage while reducing monster HP, having players preplan their moves, things like that. If you throw seven strong monsters at them, with some fluff that makes it clear they are doppelgängers, and then give them good tactics, and it will be a tough fight. Give your faux bard the leader boost, make a couple of them elites, if not all, and it will be very tough. And given that your party has three defenders, I'm not surprised things take time.

[WarKitty]

Unless you can use terrain to split the party, one on ones are pretty unlikely, however a two on two or four on four would be easier. 4e is very team combat centric, where it's harder to stand alone. This is a change. If you set up your team with solid tactics you can make it challenging. Terrain can help split them up, and make it more tactically challenging for your players. Some of the boredom may be caused by the number of them waiting to take their turns. There are several tricks to speeding up combat, which may help with the boredom. Boost monster damage while reducing monster HP, having players preplan their moves, things like that. If you throw seven strong monsters at them, with some fluff that makes it clear they are doppelgängers, and then give them good tactics, and it will be a tough fight. Give your faux bard the leader boost, make a couple of them elites, if not all, and it will be very tough. And given that your party has three defenders, I'm not surprised things take time.

People do realize the one on one thing was just a throwaway example line? I realize I may not have been clear on that - I didn't mean "they have to do it this exact way", I meant "here's a way they could run the combat that would give them a good edge." I really don't care about splitting them up, I just want them to have to think up some new tactics.

The boredom I was talking about was specifically because we have several players that want to plan and strategize rather than just throw attacks around. It's not how long is between turns as much as having another round of "I throw out my default attack again."

So here's what I'm thinking currently: I do want the flavor of having the monsters have some of the same abilities as the PC's, but they don't have to have *all* of them. 1-2 would be fine (one at-will, one encounter). Possibly alongside increased HP, so they don't die as quickly.

[Surrealistik]

It's more than that. We've faced a lot of tough encounters...I want to give them something different. Something where their standard "strikers kill everything from behind a wall" doesn't actually work.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lAc_zuU9j36uuh7pmEEm4pV_cIvdIsGH_BFLB2bW9O4/edit

[Giggling Ghast]

If you want to give them something different, then throwing a bunch of PCs as monsters at them isn't going to accomplish that goal. It's just replacing regular monsters with a re-flavoured and slightly weaker type of monster.

I suggest incorporating a non-combat challenge as part of the encounter. I'm just spitballing ideas here, but what about having them close a portal to another world while creatures are constantly spewing forth to confound the PCs?


https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lAc_zuU9j36uuh7pmEEm4pV_cIvdIsGH_BFLB2bW9O4/edit

I don't see how linking to the Google Docs log-in page is going to help. :smallconfused:

[Surrealistik]

I don't see how linking to the Google Docs log-in page is going to help. :smallconfused:

That's because it's not supposed to; it's a doc set to be publicly viewable to anyone with the link (and it is last I checked, so the problem is apparently with Google Docs).

EDIT: I'm able to access it when not logged in just fine.

[Tegu8788]

You log in you'll see what he posted. YouTube or gmail account works as well.

If one on one was a throw away, then I'll drop it. Most times I've seen doppelgänger team fight, the good guys fight their copies, are losing, then switch and almost instantly win. So I had that imagery in my head. A skill challenge always makes things more difficult, to decide whether to attack or check can be rough. At level three they should all have two encounter powers, and several may also have racial abilities as well to make things interesting. If they know it's a daily fight, then there is another power choice. Falling back to at-wills is a low level issue, and if it's a lack of versatility that bothers them, a MC feat often gives another power to play with. Or if you're ok with it, let them jump a few levels to get more options.

[WarKitty]

You log in you'll see what he posted. YouTube or gmail account works as well.

If one on one was a throw away, then I'll drop it. Most times I've seen doppelgänger team fight, the good guys fight their copies, are losing, then switch and almost instantly win. So I had that imagery in my head. A skill challenge always makes things more difficult, to decide whether to attack or check can be rough. At level three they should all have two encounter powers, and several may also have racial abilities as well to make things interesting. If they know it's a daily fight, then there is another power choice. Falling back to at-wills is a low level issue, and if it's a lack of versatility that bothers them, a MC feat often gives another power to play with. Or if you're ok with it, let them jump a few levels to get more options.

I'm not the normal DM, so I have almost no options regarding what happens with the characters. We do one-shots like this when we're down a few players (in this case due to spring break) and the people want to play without having to figure out where 3 people suddenly went and fixing up the story and everything. They're normally a pretty well-oiled machine, but since this an out of canon deal I want to throw a wrench in.

That said, I'm not super attached to PC classed opponents. What I'm not sure of is my ability to learn how to put together an interesting encounter in a few days when none of my 3.5 tricks are working and there's apparently a completely different system for monsters. Plus I don't know how many people are going to be there yet...

[Tegu8788]

My suggestion, would be to create a core challenge, be it monster and/or skill check, with some terrain. Then, for each additional player, add a bit in to increase the difficulty. If you have access to some modules, that may help give you some ideas of how to handles things now. There are some good DMs here that I'd bet would be happy to look over things for you. Just not, Surrealistik makes slaughter based encounters. I'd hate to see him running Dark Sun.

[tcrudisi]

Warkitty, it really feels like you are making this too hard on yourself. Why bother controlling doppelgangers? As a DM, I know what 95% of the players abilities and magic items and I still would be a bit overwhelmed. What you suggested works fine with 3.x ... with 4e, you are just making the combat far more complicated and rocket-tag than it really needs to be (or should be).

Instead, come up with a shtick. Usually this happens with the environment. Perhaps the fabric of the universe is weaker in a particular spot, resulting in sporadic bouncing between the world and the feywild. Every couple of rounds, the players end up shifting from one world to another. This literally means that the combat is taking place in two different maps. (Make sure to determine how they will shift in advance so that you don't end up doing it randomly. Maybe every 2 rounds?) Some really cool examples were done over at Penny-Arcade. Things like two moons orbiting each other and you could jump from one to another. Or a maze that he built with mirrors and a laser pointer bouncing around to simulate a laser going through the maze that must be avoided.

Basically: what I find is that having something like this is far more memorable than just having the PCs fight themselves. 4e makes combat so, so much easier. The monsters are easier to run and DMing is so much easier than it ever was in 3rd. To that end, it means that the DM is now mentally free to come up with more fun and interesting encounters. Use that and it doesn't matter if your players are fighting Kobolds - they will remember that fight years down the road. And that's really what you want, right?

[ChaosOS]

Also, on the doppleganger: If you want to be straightforward, Rocket tag shouldn't be too terrible at your low levels. Just make copies of the character sheets, then the only work you should do is convert it into the monster stat blocks using any of the online templates. Makes it a lot easier to use. If you're really concerned disable dailies and/or make action points only work for move actions, not standard actions. Rocket tag only comes into play with severe focus fire, which can make things interesting. #1 tip though is to make sure the terrain is interesting, I recommend dynamic too. Try maybe a battlefield that is constantly bombarded by various items, write up a simple table and roll to see what new dangers they must face.

[tcrudisi]

Also, on the doppleganger: If you want to be straightforward, Rocket tag shouldn't be too terrible at your low levels. Just make copies of the character sheets, then the only work you should do is convert it into the monster stat blocks using any of the online templates. Makes it a lot easier to use. If you're really concerned disable dailies and/or make action points only work for move actions, not standard actions. Rocket tag only comes into play with severe focus fire, which can make things interesting. #1 tip though is to make sure the terrain is interesting, I recommend dynamic too. Try maybe a battlefield that is constantly bombarded by various items, write up a simple table and roll to see what new dangers they must face.

Rocket-tag takes place because whoever wins initiative is almost assuredly going to win the combat. Win initiative: move into place, use a daily, action point to use an encounter power. Hit with both? Enemy is likely dead. It's that simple, unfortunately. If the monsters win initiative, they do this to the PC healer and erase the one advantage the players have: healing. Since we are assuming the monsters have equal stats, I'm going to guess that at least one character is high enough Intelligence to realize this.

(The monsters may have equal abilities, but they don't have equal healing surges without DM fiat. Heroic monsters have only 1 surge. They also die at 0 hp while PCs merely go unconscious and can still be healed up.)

[Waddacku]

Using the monster creation guidelines and just giving them a few appropriate class powers should be workable. Though if there's seven of them busting out Dailies might get pretty horrible.

[Aasimar]

This was one of the first red lights that warned me that I wasn't going to like 4.

You can make monsters that use some pc-like powers, but you can never have that whole 'adversarial adventuring party'-thing for real, because PC's are just not balanced to fight PC's, their powers, defenses, hitpoints, attacks, all way off.

[Ravian]

While not perfect I like how Oblivion Moss in the MM3 can copy the geist of a party's abilities, essentially it consists of an elite monster that can steal powers and give them to minions it creates based on the party member's role. Again not a perfect "Evil doppleganger" but a very interesting concept in my opinion, more like they are mimicking the party's tactics then perfect mirror copies like the linear guild is to the OOTS

[Ashdate]

This was one of the first red lights that warned me that I wasn't going to like 4.

You can make monsters that use some pc-like powers, but you can never have that whole 'adversarial adventuring party'-thing for real, because PC's are just not balanced to fight PC's, their powers, defenses, hitpoints, attacks, all way off.

In fairness, 3.5 was never meant to be balanced for PCs to fight PCs either :)

Honestly, the biggest problem with "PCs as adversaries", in my eyes has little to do with 4e balance (although certainly, going first with actions points is a big help in PC combat). The biggest problem is that 4e PCs are complicated. Depending on the level, you're looking at upwards of two at-will attacks, three encounters, three dailies, magic items, and class powers.

That does not properly fit on a typical stat-block.

If you really want to do "PC vs PC" I would suggest you keep "your" PCs really simple: one at-will, one encounter, one daily. Ignore magical items and class powers you don't think will be relevant. Allow them to healing wind and use surges from their powers.

If you want the PCs to "pair off", let the PCs to know that they are effectively "marked" by a particular opponent. It won't stop them, but it'll discourage them a little with the penalty.

[WarKitty]

Ok it looks like the doppelganger idea is probably too hard - I'll abandon it for my other idea, which was a combination of puzzle-solving and battle (we've basically abandoned the idea of skill challenges in favor of actual puzzles). The basic idea being that there's a trap that spews monsters until they solve the puzzle. First challenge should be a game of mastermind - not sure what others to use, except that I'm not stupid enough to try chess against my party.

[DeltaEmil]

In fairness, 3.5 was never meant to be balanced for PCs to fight PCs either :)Well, actually, it was meant to be balanced for PCs vs. PCs, it just fails so horribly at it, which is why the term 'rocket-tag' was soon applied to D&D 3.5. :smallsigh:
Which is why of course D&D 4th edition doesn't even try to be PvP-balanced, because no edition of D&D has ever managed that, and none will ever do as long as there is more than one class with different ability scores and different class features.

As for the mirror-party match, just look at the different monsters with the most similar role to it.

So, 1 controller (to the wizard), 1 brute (since brutes are more focused on damage, it is most fitting for the ranger), 2 soldiers (paladin and fighter 1), 1 skirmisher or brute (for fighter 2, also best as a brute, because it's okay to let them be hit often), 1 lurker (the rogue), and let's make another controller with the leader-subrole (the bard equivalent).

Supposing that the party Warkitty mentioned is all level 3, that makes a budget of 900 xp for a standard battle. Let's look around what sort of monsters we can take that are most appropriate for a level 3 group and still manage to convey the level-feeling.

For the level 3 controller, the skulk mesmerist is quite handy (MM 3). Let's refluff it to a human ninja mesmerist wizard. Ninjas are cool.

Ranger-wannabe is best served as a Jackalwere Bravo (MM 3). You might want to replace its Change Shape-ability with something else, and of course, refluff it again.

Now on to the 2 soldiers. We can take the Elf Noble Guard (MV) and the Town Guard (also MV). Alternatively, replace either of them with the Hobgoblin Battle Guard (MV), or a Battletested Orc (MV). Just refluff the hobgoblin or the orc into a human or whatever species you want it to be.

The fighter 2-equivalent might sound fun if we take the Poisonscale Brawler (MV brute). Let's refluff that thing into another species-acceptable brawler.

The rogue-lurker. This one's easy. We use the Halfling Trickster (MV).

For the evil-counterpart to the bard, we'll use the Hobgoblin Beast Master (MV). Modifying Attack Command so that it targets any of its allies instead of only beast/magical beasts is okay for a one-shot. Also, refluff it again into something more acceptable if needed.

So we have for example a skulk mesmerist, a battletested orc, a hobgoblin battleguard, a poison scale brawler, a halfling trickster and a hobgoblin beast master, most of these monsters refluffed into being humans or whatever.

Now, if there should be only one battle, we can easily make it a slightly harder encounter, let's say level+2, for a budget of 1200 xp, and perhaps also add minions, elites and other stuff, or traps and hazards, whatever is okay. Traps and hazards might be better, like for example magic crossbow turrets or something like that.

[huttj509]

I like Delta's approach.

You might not want to use a "fighter", but you can definitely make a monster who FEELS like a fighter, or wizard, etc. Take a couple of their more prominent moves (or just tactics, some extra damage on combat advantage perhaps, without as many ways to get it easily), adjust the actual damage output accordingly, and the players will feel like they fought an opposing party, even if they were not built as PCs.

[Surrealistik]

PC Dopplegangers are easy if you really want to go that route.

Give them standard mob hit points/defenses, arranged in a way that best mirrors their counterpart. Give them an action point each.

Strikers roughly correlate with Brutes. Controllers with Controllers, Defenders with Soldiers. Leaders usually best correlate with controllers that have the leader subtype.

Give them at-will powers from the player classes, with the standard mob attack progression and damage (Level + 5 vs AC, Level + 3 vs NAD, and average Dmg = Level + 8). Fluff the damage dice in the way that makes the most sense. For example, if a mob uses a dagger, use 1d4 for the damage dice.

Give them the encounter powers from the player classes with standard mob attack progression, and standard damage increased by 50% ([Level + 8] * 1.5).

Give them one or two at-will/encounter utility powers from the player classes.

In place of a daily powers, give them the ability to recharge encounter powers. You might choose to give them one 'item' power.

Note that because these are standards with an action point, and are generally tougher than a normal standard, they should be worth ~1.5 times normal XP for a standard of their level.

[Raimun]

I'd say go for it.

If it's just the one time the PCs face PC-class "monsters", it should be doable, even you just photocopied your players' char sheets. At least I would find fight like that exciting because it's different from the usual 4e-drill.

I would say the best way to start a fight like that evenly would be to separate the two teams. Put them in two different rooms, connected by a single square-wide doorway and the walls don't come down. Make sure the PCs know in advance that they are facing their doppelgangers and they know they are lethal. At the start of the battle, no PC has a line of sight (or effect) to any monster-PCs (and vice versa) but both teams are still (somehow) aware of the other team in the other room (evil gloating?). Everyone is at least 10 squares away from the doorway. Roll for initiative.

That way, the rocket tag-element would be lessened as no one in their right mind would just charge in. Even if someone did, the number of actions required to reach the other room would mean s/he isn't going to just nova at the first turn and would find him or herself isolated.

This is all assuming the whole party hasn't optimized their Speed instead of damage/control/whatever. :smalltongue: