Cieyrin
2012-03-05, 11:55 AM
So, we know that grappling was often a mess in 3.X, not the least of which is the common grappler enhancer Enlarge Person reduced your Dex, which in turn tended to disable Improved Grapple, which requires a Dex of 13. So either you had to have a Dex of 15 or had to be a Monk or other class whose bonus feats came with the tag "need not meet the prerequisites," meaning Monks don't care about what their Dex is for those purposes.
For PF, when they overhauled combat maneuvers to be both easy to understand and use, you would think they'd have removed that particular issue. Not so, it's been exacerbated. See, when Grappling got rewritten, someone in their infinite wisdom decided 'Hey, Fear and Sickening has steps of more severe conditions, let's make Grappled and Pinned conditions and pseudo-make Entangled the least version! :D'. Let's compare the conditions:
The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell.
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
Notice how similar Entangled and Grappled are, especially that bolding in Grappled. That's important for this next point:
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.
A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.
You are skilled at grappling opponents.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a grapple combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to grapple you.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a grapple combat maneuver.
So, whenever you grapple, you both get the Grappled condition, meaning your Dexterity goes down by -4. If your Dex isn't 17 or higher, guess what? Improved Grapple and all your feats that require it as a prerequisite shut down and you become as skilled at grappling as any other schmuck. This isn't to mention that Enlarge Person isn't really worthwhile for grapplers anymore, either, since the size bonus for combat maneuvers got dropped to +1 for Large creatures, which gets canceled out by the size penalty to attack rolls, leaving you with just the +2 Str and your unarmed strike going up one die size, which may matter to you if you want that extra 1.5-2 damage on average you'll get, as well as the reach.
There is remedies to this in the system, though that boils down to either being a Monk, who are far more competent at grappling than in 3.5, thanks to Maneuver Training and the Maneuver Master and Tetori archetypes (unfortunately, you can't be both), or being a Brutal Pugilist Barbarian or an Unarmed Fighter, who both have abilities to reduce or ignore the Dex penalty, though the Brutal Pugilist gets it much earlier than the Unarmed Fighter does. On the other hand, that's an annoying solution to avoid the required MADness to just be competent at grappling.
So, am I right to be outraged here or is there some detail that I missed? Help me, Playground, for I have no hope for Paizo!
For PF, when they overhauled combat maneuvers to be both easy to understand and use, you would think they'd have removed that particular issue. Not so, it's been exacerbated. See, when Grappling got rewritten, someone in their infinite wisdom decided 'Hey, Fear and Sickening has steps of more severe conditions, let's make Grappled and Pinned conditions and pseudo-make Entangled the least version! :D'. Let's compare the conditions:
The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) or lose the spell.
A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. In addition, grappled creatures can take no action that requires two hands to perform. A grappled character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level), or lose the spell. Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
Notice how similar Entangled and Grappled are, especially that bolding in Grappled. That's important for this next point:
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.
A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.
You are skilled at grappling opponents.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a grapple combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to grapple you.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a grapple combat maneuver.
So, whenever you grapple, you both get the Grappled condition, meaning your Dexterity goes down by -4. If your Dex isn't 17 or higher, guess what? Improved Grapple and all your feats that require it as a prerequisite shut down and you become as skilled at grappling as any other schmuck. This isn't to mention that Enlarge Person isn't really worthwhile for grapplers anymore, either, since the size bonus for combat maneuvers got dropped to +1 for Large creatures, which gets canceled out by the size penalty to attack rolls, leaving you with just the +2 Str and your unarmed strike going up one die size, which may matter to you if you want that extra 1.5-2 damage on average you'll get, as well as the reach.
There is remedies to this in the system, though that boils down to either being a Monk, who are far more competent at grappling than in 3.5, thanks to Maneuver Training and the Maneuver Master and Tetori archetypes (unfortunately, you can't be both), or being a Brutal Pugilist Barbarian or an Unarmed Fighter, who both have abilities to reduce or ignore the Dex penalty, though the Brutal Pugilist gets it much earlier than the Unarmed Fighter does. On the other hand, that's an annoying solution to avoid the required MADness to just be competent at grappling.
So, am I right to be outraged here or is there some detail that I missed? Help me, Playground, for I have no hope for Paizo!