Girard is Alive!

[PetterTomBos]

So, how do I back this claim?

V would not gain any xp for her time as darth-V, right? Because no encounter would have high enough CR to give her ECL any exp (with the casters lvl. being epic, you know).

Girard was epic! If he was killed, would V not gain any exp? If I gained exp while on an ECL = MyLvl. + aLOT, I would be really shocked about it, right?

Anyone with the epic skills of epic play that can crunch the numbers?

[ellindsey]

Or, Girard was already dead when Familicide was cast.

[Blisstake]

They've also long since stopped announcing whenever they level up. They could also have comparitive levels at epic level which wouldn't result in an automatic level up.

So that really doesn't support your claim at all.

[G-Man Graves]

Also, V was effective level, like, 70-80, whereas Girard would be 20 something. And I think that if wiping out a quarter of the huge xp bundles dragons on the planet didn't lead to leveling, on more human in the mix won't.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Or V's ECL was massively boosted by the soul-splice, to the point where nobody it killed was of sufficient level to be a threat. Which I think was stated. Hang on...

EDIT: Ninja'd on that one, at least.

[Math_Mage]

Collateral damage doesn't necessarily count as XP anyway.

[DarrenLocke]

You're kinda grasping at straws here, I reckon. I somehow don't think Rich crunched out V's personal Epic-lvl Soul-spliced character sheet just to make sure the story was totally consistent, assuming Girard is indeed planned to be alive.

[KillianHawkeye]

You're kinda grasping at straws here, I reckon. I somehow don't think Rich crunched out V's personal Epic-lvl Soul-spliced character sheet just to make sure the story was totally consistent, assuming Girard is indeed planned to be alive.

No, but he can certainly add mid-teens + over 20 + over 20 + mid 20s = a lot.

Even great wyrm black dragons (if any were affected by the spell) are only CR 22. Somebody of SpliceV's effective level would get exactly 0 xp for defeating one, so it's unlikely anything else would have given him any either.

Anyways, xp in D&D is awarded for overcoming challenges and defeating enemies, not just killing. The only enemy V defeated that day was ABD. All of the other relatives killed by Familicide probably wouldn't get him any xp regardless of who they are or what their level was, simply because V killed them all without facing any of them. I.e., they presented no challenge to overcome. Killing somebody from the other side of the world might be useful, but it's not exactly challenging.

If you want xp, you've got to fight for it. :smallwink:

[Goosefarble]

I'm definitely going with the "he was already dead" theory. If Soon was "aged" when Shojo was just a boy (which kind of doesn't fit in with the years and is something that's really irked me for quite a while but we'll go with it anyhow) then I expect Girard to be dead by now.

[Jay R]

You only get xp for kills that represent a challenge or a threat. Somebody who never knew you, half a continent away, who died instantly and without a saving throw, when you didn't even know you had affected him, does not constitute a challenge or a threat.

[arclight]

It's the statue!

[MeanMrsMustard]

Meh, even though that would be interesting, I think that "Girard is Alive" will go the same way as "Paul is Dead."

[Nathan Drake]

He is alive, because of that halo on the panel. I'm pretty sure that this halo is used to mark a family member as being alive.

[Goosefarble]

Meh, even though that would be interesting, I think that "Girard is Alive" will go the same way as "Paul is Dead."

If you read the family tree backwards it plays a secret message which reveals that Girard morphed into a black dragon.

[Hbgplayer]

I'm definitely going with the "he was already dead" theory. If Soon was "aged" when Shojo was just a boy (which kind of doesn't fit in with the years and is something that's really irked me for quite a while but we'll go with it anyhow) then I expect Girard to be dead by now.

I'm going to say that if he weren't all ready dead, then he was killed by the Familicide, but any and all xp went (somehow, don't ask me to explain how) to the souls whose spells were cast.

Also, I am guessing that the Order of the Scribble was in their middle ages to be able to complete their quest, seeing as they'd have to be mid-to high levels.
That's my theory, anyway.

[Mastikator]

Just because the Giant uses D&D rules as a source of humor and material for characters and world building (and then, loosely) doesn't mean he actually follows the rules. :/
In fact I think the giant said he doesn't follow the rules and the characters don't have stats.

[Goosefarble]

Also, I am guessing that the Order of the Scribble was in their middle ages to be able to complete their quest, seeing as they'd have to be mid-to high levels.
That's my theory, anyway.

Yeah, I'd also guess that they're all middle aged - Soon I can believe being 60 when the Crayons of Time story takes place, but to be honest with you, the dates still don't add up. If Shojo is in his 80s (Roy says he's an octogenarian, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is - Roy might not know), and the Crayons of Time took place 65 years ago, Shojo can't have been that young when Soon died of old age. He must've been at least 15 if he is indeed 80+, and he doesn't look it in the backflash we see of him "leaning on his father's knee".

[hoff]

I assumed V CR would be V level + all the soul splice levels. Summed up it should be at least 70. So even if V killed Xykon she still wouldn't get any decent amount of XP.

[homeosapiens]

I think V would get exp from killing Xykon, since Xykon IS more powerfull than V with two splices. He might have less number of spells, but he has more usefull ones. Xykon is very durable, V is not. Xykon has d12 hit die, V has d4. Xykon has way more skill points, has tone of immunities and fight takes place on his territory.

Xykon could(i think he would) probably lose if Hearta was there too. Counterspell energy drains and V could do things like empowered sunburst way more times. Not loosing time with Bugsby's, desintegrate and such.

[DarrenLocke]

No, but he can certainly add mid-teens + over 20 + over 20 + mid 20s = a lot.

Even great wyrm black dragons (if any were affected by the spell) are only CR 22. Somebody of SpliceV's effective level would get exactly 0 xp for defeating one, so it's unlikely anything else would have given him any either.

Anyways, xp in D&D is awarded for overcoming challenges and defeating enemies, not just killing. The only enemy V defeated that day was ABD. All of the other relatives killed by Familicide probably wouldn't get him any xp regardless of who they are or what their level was, simply because V killed them all without facing any of them. I.e., they presented no challenge to overcome. Killing somebody from the other side of the world might be useful, but it's not exactly challenging.

If you want xp, you've got to fight for it. :smallwink:

I'm aware of how D&D 3.5 works. I'm not sure what part of my post you're addressing.

I don't think you understand me at all. I'm saying all this talk about XP levels and almost everything to do with the mechanics of D&D is irrelevant. This is a webcomic which is directed by the whims of the creator, and the rules and tropes of media. Sure, mechanics come up sometimes, but they're not followed strictly. This theory is useless because "XP levels" and "experience points" in OoTS are practically invisible and referenced only very occasionally.

It's about as pointless as formulating a theory around Dragonball Z Power levels.

[LordVader]

Girard is totally that statue in the main hall of the ziggurat.

[Fitzclowningham]

Girard was at least alive when Familicide was cast, that is, if the spell stops progressing when it reaches a dead member of the bloodline. For what it's worth, I'm with the contingency/flesh to stone/he's-alive-and-a-statue party.

[Aaron]

Yeah, I'd also guess that they're all middle aged - Soon I can believe being 60 when the Crayons of Time story takes place, but to be honest with you, the dates still don't add up. If Shojo is in his 80s (Roy says he's an octogenarian, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is - Roy might not know), and the Crayons of Time took place 65 years ago, Shojo can't have been that young when Soon died of old age. He must've been at least 15 if he is indeed 80+, and he doesn't look it in the backflash we see of him "leaning on his father's knee".

I will point out there is an Epic Feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#extendedLifeSpan)that Extends one's natural life span. Also it could have been done with magic or other means.

[snikrept]

It's the statue!

This is the outcome I'm hoping for. That Girard set in place some sort of "break enchantment in case of emergency" safeguard and had himself stoned.

[rgrekejin]

It's the statue!

I really doubt it. The perspective in the panel with the statue seems (to me at least) to suggest that the statue is larger than a normal medium-size human. So, unless Girard got flesh to stone'd while under the effects of enlarge person as well, it seems unlikely that he is the statue. Perhaps I'm misjudging the relative distance, though. It can be kind of hard in a stick-figure webcomic.

...plus, you know, it just seems like a long shot.

[LordVader]

The statue seems roughly Medium-sized to me; compare it to the doorways, and the relative height of an OotS member to the doorway.

Also, people making the connection that Girard was related to that particular black dragon solely based on the name "Draketooth" was a long shot, and I think we all know how that turned out. :smallwink:

When it comes to a master illusionist and trickster like Girard, I think the long shots are the safest bets.

He's got to be alive somehow, in any case, and the Draketooth clan doesn't appear to be engendered with particular longevity as a result of their heritage. Statue or some other kind of pocket dimension or petrification are really the only options here.

Also, note his conspicuous absence from the illusion-casting rotation. That's quite uncharacteristic for someone as involved with his supporters as Girard, and lends further credence to the idea that Girard is currently in some form of stasis (i.e., the statue).

The statue is a subtle insert, but there's no real reason for it to be there otherwise, and it's displayed rather prominently in the one panel it appears in.

[Kish]

So, how do I back this claim?

V would not gain any xp for her time as darth-V, right? Because no encounter would have high enough CR to give her ECL any exp (with the casters lvl. being epic, you know).

Girard was epic! If he was killed, would V not gain any exp? If I gained exp while on an ECL = MyLvl. + aLOT, I would be really shocked about it, right?

Anyone with the epic skills of epic play that can crunch the numbers?
Easy.

You get XP for overcoming challenges.

Vaarsuvius cast a single spell that wiped out a whole lot of people who had no chance to defend themselves.

This is not a challenge.

This is not a challenge if one of those people is an epic-level illusionist. This is not a challenge if those people include the gods themselves. Under no circumstances, is "wipe out defenseless entities with one spell" a means of getting as much as one single experience point.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm aware of how D&D 3.5 works. I'm not sure what part of my post you're addressing.

Well, not everyone is around here, so forgive me for not knowing that. And my point was that Rich wouldn't need to create "V's personal Epic-lvl Soul-spliced character sheet just to make sure the story was totally consistent" at all.

Since a few other people have repeated what I said about the Familicide victims not being an xp-worthy challenge, it seems my comment was relevant.

Also, while I may have been commenting on something that you posted, my post was meant to be informative to the general forum population. Please do not take it as the two of us having a debate.

You make a good point about Rich not caring about the rules and writing based on how the story is supposed to go. However, he still makes oblique references here and there, and even addressed this point specifically when the 3 Fiends told V that he'd be too high level to gain any xp during the splice. I'm pretty sure that the eventual side-effects of the Familicide were already planned at that point, and because it's a spell that the Giant made up himself, I don't think it's unlikely that he's at least thought about this from a gaming perspective.

[DarrenLocke]

Well, not everyone is around here, so forgive me for not knowing that. And my point was that Rich wouldn't need to create "V's personal Epic-lvl Soul-spliced character sheet just to make sure the story was totally consistent" at all.

Since a few other people have repeated what I said about the Familicide victims not being an xp-worthy challenge, it seems my comment was relevant.

Also, while I may have been commenting on something that you posted, my post was meant to be informative to the general forum population. Please do not take it as the two of us having a debate.

You make a good point about Rich not caring about the rules and writing based on how the story is supposed to go. However, he still makes oblique references here and there, and even addressed this point specifically when the 3 Fiends told V that he'd be too high level to gain any xp during the splice. I'm pretty sure that the eventual side-effects of the Familicide were already planned at that point, and because it's a spell that the Giant made up himself, I don't think it's unlikely that he's at least thought about this from a gaming perspective.


Yeah, that's fair. Sorry, I shouldn't have been as affronted as I was. I ought to know better than to assume someone would assume I'd understand all about D&D when I have little reputation for people to go on. And I forgot that folks here aren't necessarily D&D fans, or even roleplayers, so I'll give you that too.

As for expecting you to address me in a more "personal" manner, as opposed to your more "general" posting style, I guess I bring that over from other forums, so I'll keep that in mind in future and remember it's an open topic, not an arena for dueling commenters.

[Cavenskull]

I will point out there is an Epic Feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#extendedLifeSpan)that Extends one's natural life span. Also it could have been done with magic or other means.
That doesn't actually address Goosefarble's point. He's saying that the 66 years that have passed since Soon first discovered a rift isn't enough time for Shojo to have aged over 80 years, especially since Shojo was said to be a boy at the time Shojo transferred command of the Sapphire Guard to Shojo's father. So either Shojo is younger than he looks, or he was older than he looked when Soon transferred command to Shojo's father.

What you suggested actually makes the problem worse, because if Shojo has extended his lifespan, he would have to have been a full-grown adult when Soon transferred command.

[SaintRidley]

Yeah, I'd also guess that they're all middle aged - Soon I can believe being 60 when the Crayons of Time story takes place, but to be honest with you, the dates still don't add up. If Shojo is in his 80s (Roy says he's an octogenarian, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is - Roy might not know), and the Crayons of Time took place 65 years ago, Shojo can't have been that young when Soon died of old age. He must've been at least 15 if he is indeed 80+, and he doesn't look it in the backflash we see of him "leaning on his father's knee".

And Roy's guess about Shojo's age based on the fact that Shojo was an old man (who happened to occupy one of the most stressful seats of power on his side of the world - and considering what occupying such a position does to people in the real world... just go to the spoiler box) must be correct why?

http://transition2008.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/bill-clinton.jpgBill Clinton, 1992
http://media.philly.com/images/bill-clinton-photograph.jpgBill Clinton 2000
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/GeorgeWBush.jpg/480px-GeorgeWBush.jpgGeorge W. Bush 2000
http://xandernews.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/george-bush.jpgGeorge W. Bush 2008

[doodthedud]

Or, Girard was already dead when Familicide was cast.

I'm going with this.

The slab with the statue on it looks very much like a memorial tomb.

[Squieonat]

There isn't a whole heck of a lot of information concerning Familicide, but is it possible that if Girard were on a different plane at the time, he could have survived it? (Assuming, of course, that he wasn't already dead.)

[doodthedud]

I'm going with this.

The slab with the statue on it looks very much like a memorial tomb.

totally called it

[rgrekejin]

totally called it

Good show, sir.

[cloudland]

Anyone noticed this particular details? If Girard is indeed dead before Familicide, then all his children are not affected. This is because Familicide have to connect through a living person to hit the next person. So could this means this is indeed not the real Girard, or perhaps Girard's children are in fact alive and hiding?

[Gift Jeraff]

Anyone noticed this particular details? If Girard is indeed dead before Familicide, then all his children are not affected. This is because Familicide have to connect through a living person to hit the next person. So could this means this is indeed not the real Girard, or perhaps Girard's children are in fact alive and hiding?http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12856280&postcount=1034

So Step 1 would kill Girard's children whether he is alive or not.

[cloudland]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12856280&postcount=1034

So Step 1 would kill Girard's children whether he is alive or not.

Oh I didn't thought of it that way, so it work regardless of death/alive status for the first round. So that means that only Girard's other parent (the one not descended from the dragon) would still be alive. So that person might still hide somewhere in the pyramid though.

[RSLee]

No, Girard's other parent would be blood-related to Girard. Hence, they would be killed just like Tarquin's wife was.

[Gift Jeraff]

Assuming Girard's mom is a human, whether Step 2 skips people connected to the targeted bloodline through someone who was already dead dead (like Girard) hardly matters--she would've probably died of age by now. Also, Girard's siblings may have been alive at the time of Familicide, so she'd still be targeted.

[DrBurr]

Latest strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0846.html) shows Girard is dead

[Secris]

Man, he sure looks terrible for being alive and all. :smallbiggrin:

[ti'esar]

Latest strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0846.html) shows Girard is dead

I'm not so sure - remember, epic-level illusionist.

I, personally, doubt it's a trick and expect he really is dead... but does this conclusively rule out his survival? I don't think so.

[Silfir]

To keep the "Girard is Alive" theory running, because I refuse to believe that V could be so lucky:

We know from what happened to V that there's an underground compound of some sort that the characters haven't found yet. The dead guy says Girard is beneath his own feet, and we have to consider that the truth. Assuming the statue's feet do represent Girard's feet, he could be either the corpse beneath the statue - or alive, still further down, in the underground, and the corpse is placed there to throw off intruders who speak with dead to find out where he is.

[The_Final_Stand]

That corpse is missing Girard's purple cloak/cape. If his shirt survived, why wouldn't his cape?

[martianmister]

Girard is Paul, Paul is Girard. :smallwink:

[St Fan]

That corpse is missing Girard's purple cloak/cape. If his shirt survived, why wouldn't his cape?

Because he simply wasn't buried with it. The cape was probably magical and thus one of his descendant inherited it.

[DrBurr]

Because he simply wasn't buried with it. The cape was probably magical and thus one of his descendant inherited it.

Ooh maybe its like the symbol of the clan head so when Girard died Orrin inherited it and wore it until well familicide.

[Cavenskull]

I'm not so sure - remember, epic-level illusionist.

I, personally, doubt it's a trick and expect he really is dead... but does this conclusively rule out his survival? I don't think so.
If he is alive, he's putting far more work into faking his own death than he is in actually keeping the gate hidden.


To keep the "Girard is Alive" theory running, because I refuse to believe that V could be so lucky...
I don't think Vaarsuvius would consider Girard's death a stroke of luck. Vaarsuvius is obviously devastated at the unintended consequences of Familicide. I think Vaarsuvius would rather have Girard alive to defend the gate, even if there's the risk of having to deal with Girard's wrath.

[Silfir]

Mmmmmno. Having to look the guy in the face whose entire family you killed during the darkest moments of your life beats anything. Saving the world might be technically more important, but the world being in danger isn't V's fault.

Besides, it's not a matter of having the worst possible thing imaginable happen to V - it's the matter of having the dramaturgically appropriate thing happen. If you cast something as enormous as Familicide, you have to suffer consequences of some sort other than a nagging conscience. Having to face a survivor - one who is also, at least nominally, a good guy - would be very appropriate. Unless that's the expectation Rich is currently subverting, and since he's a genius, I can't rule out he's got something much more epic planned.

Long story short, when it comes to an epic level sorceror specializing in illusions of all things, I need to see a bit more than a corpse.

(As for Girard devoting more time to make it appear he's dead than securing the gate - has the Order, or anyone, seen the gate yet? Dorukan created a humongous dungeon, Soon founded a several hundred strong order of paladins utterly devoted to their cause. But I don't think we have seen the epic sorceror specializing in illusions bring his A game yet. If he is indeed dead, than the illusions he crafted in the decades coming before will be at least as difficult to surpass as him if he was alive.)

[doodthedud]

If he is alive, he's putting far more work into faking his own death than he is in actually keeping the gate hidden.


To be fair, his entire specialty is controlling what people believe. His tactics for defense probably rely heavily on that.

That said, I think he's dead.

[rgrekejin]

(As for Girard devoting more time to make it appear he's dead than securing the gate - has the Order, or anyone, seen the gate yet? Dorukan created a humongous dungeon, Soon founded a several hundred strong order of paladins utterly devoted to their cause. But I don't think we have seen the epic sorceror specializing in illusions bring his A game yet. If he is indeed dead, than the illusions he crafted in the decades coming before will be at least as difficult to surpass as him if he was alive.)

This I agree with. Roy and Haley may be jumping to conclusions that the gate is functionally undefended. Although Girard's family was clearly responsible for maintaining a number of illusions, I would be surprised if Girard hadn't created at least SOME permanent ones. We know he can. The message in the desert alone proves that if he is indeed dead (which I think he probably is), then he is capable of casting spells which continue beyond his death. His family might not have been the sole defenders of the gate. Like the Sapphire Guard in the throne room battle, they may, in fact, have simply been reinforcements.