Why It's A Bad Idea To Burn Without Reading

[eilandesq]

We know from before that "heaven" can see through epic level illusions and pretty well knows most of what is going on on the surface. Does anyone else wonder whether the report that Roy's dad burned in #664 noted the extermination of the Draketooth clan (and all the additional collateral damage among the human population)? Meaning that our favorite unpleasant ghost did even more damage than we thought when he decided that Roy just didn't need to know about the whole Evil V episode.

[RecklessFable]

Probably.

And I'm thinking he is losing his alignment more and more into neutral. He's on the wrong cloud...

[NerfTW]

We know from before that "heaven" can see through epic level illusions and pretty well knows most of what is going on on the surface. Does anyone else wonder whether the report that Roy's dad burned in #664 noted the extermination of the Draketooth clan (and all the additional collateral damage among the human population)? Meaning that our favorite unpleasant ghost did even more damage than we thought when he decided that Roy just didn't need to know about the whole Evil V episode.

No damage was done, though. What would that information have gained them? A reveal 2 weeks earlier? Besides, the celestial who delivered the report probably has no idea what the gates are. The gods probably don't tell every low level flunky about potentially god killing abominations. They were just warning Roy about his companions being a bit on the genocidal side. There's almost zero chance the report focused on the Draketooths to the point anyone would even notice the name.

Burning the report was just a jerk move, but I think if you're going to call it an evil or neutral act, you might want to justify what it could have accomplished that isn't being revealed now.

[Goosefarble]

Well, Eugene hasn't even manifested to Roy in recent days, so I doubt he would have revealed it anyway. Besides, if Roy had learned what happened, he might've kicked V out of the group, and that probably would've done quite a bit of bad for the order in the longrun.

[Romanes eunt do]

I think it's more of a nonlawful act than anything.

Eugene wants his blood oath fulfilled, and he trusts more in magic than large, pointy bits of metal. So he wants a wizard to stay on the team.

And besides, it's only associating with evil (or those who commit evil deeds) if you know about it, no?

[Mr. Pants]

Probably.

And I'm thinking he is losing his alignment more and more into neutral. He's on the wrong cloud...

Rich says he's already neutral...at this rate he'll be totally depraved evil and insidious!

[DrBurr]

Rich says he's already neutral...at this rate he'll be totally depraved evil and insidious!

Where does he say that?

I don't see how burning a report makes Eugene Evil or insidious, maybe a jerk and embittered for spending over a decade on a cloud but not evil

[Gift Jeraff]

I keep thinking this thread is about someone's OOTS book burning before they got to read it. :smalltongue:

[t209]

Where does he say that?

I don't see how burning a report makes Eugene Evil or insidious, maybe a jerk and embittered for spending over a decade on a cloud but not evil

That messed up the Order of the Stick quest to save the world.
If they had known about the familicide in advance...Wait? Wouldn't they kick out V for this and gave Tarquin leverage over the Stick since they would need defenses.

[rbetieh]

That messed up the Order of the Stick quest to save the world.
If they had known about the familicide in advance...Wait? Wouldn't they kick out V for this and gave Tarquin leverage over the Stick since they would need defenses.

If they haven't kicked out Belkar, the probably wouldnt have kicked out V either. But Durkon would certainly be preparing a few slots for Spell Resistance....

[ORione]

I keep thinking this thread is about someone's OOTS book burning before they got to read it. :smalltongue:

Yeah, that was my first thought when I saw the thread's title, too.

[cloudland]

Well Eugene don't know about all the consequences of V's action, and as far as he know, none of the non-black dragon are affected. As black dragon is already established as always evil (confirmed by Miko), so basically for Eugene, his intention is just to hide a deal with the evil. Hence, his action is definitely not leaning toward Evil in anyway, just Chaotic.
As for why he's on the cloud, I believe that is just where the judging take place, not necessary pertain to correct alignment. It might be strongly good aligned perhaps just to ensure evil people won't just plane shift and start slaughtering, but it won't be "wrong" in the bureaucratic sense.

[Winter]

As black dragon is already established as always evil (confirmed by Miko),

You mean confirmed by the person who had so little clue about what she was doing and how things work that she lost her Paladin-abilities due to lack of sane judgement? You cite that person? :smallwink:

[Psyren]

Eugene burning that report wasn't Evil, but it was definitely Chaotic.

[ref]

She being insane doesn't mean she can't be right. (Plus, that quote is waaaaay before her episode).

[Gift Jeraff]

Rich said Miko has always pushed the line of what it meant to be Lawful Good. I'd say that's one of the instances of pushing the line.

[Winter]

She being insane doesn't mean she can't be right. (Plus, that quote is waaaaay before her episode).

Yes, correct. But we have seen in-comic how well her abilities to reason and find good solution were. In this case her insanity is rooted in her inability to make sane judgments.

Therefore, I find it legit to dismiss proof citing Miko's judgement as source.

[Math_Mage]

As black dragon is already established as always evil (confirmed by Miko)

As Miko intentionally parodies the simplistic view of alignment and the Paladin's Code throughout NCftPB, I think it's more reasonable to take that strip as parody than as actual Word of God.

[cloudland]

No no no I think you misunderstood what I said. Whether Miko is right or wrong does not matter, what matter is that she reflect the common belief held by human about the alignment of black dragon. Eugene can't have known better, and since he also held the belief that all black dragon are evil, he never intended to hide Familicide by burning the book. He only intended to hide the deal with the evil, because he think that whether Roy found out about Familicide or not does not matter: for Eugene, it count as a good act.

[rbetieh]

No no no I think you misunderstood what I said. Whether Miko is right or wrong does not matter, what matter is that she reflect the common belief held by human about the alignment of black dragon. Eugene can't have known better, and since he also held the belief that all black dragon are evil, he never intended to hide Familicide by burning the book. He only intended to hide the deal with the evil, because he think that whether Roy found out about Familicide or not does not matter: for Eugene, it count as a good act.

Eugene had epic scrying technology, he could have known a lot more than was shown. I would say his true purpose in burning the report was to keep the order focused on mission.

[TheZenMaster]

Thing is Eugene is going on the evil side.

He thinks THIS is the way things should be done. By mass genocide and bargaining with fiends.

[Stormlock]

I doubt he cares how it gets done at this point, only that it gets done. And epic V certainly had a much much better shot at doing it than the rest of the OotS. That he totally blew it through total incompetence (like everyone else who has fought him so far except Soon) doesn't change the fact that a ruthless wizard bargaining with fiends and sacrificing innocents has a better shot at finishing the job than one playing Mr. Nice Guy. And obviously either of them have a better shot than a guy with a metal stick.

[Winter]

Yes, that's the funny thing: He does not care how it's done to get into the LG afterlife and by that he actually has reached the conclusion he does not really has to go into the LG afterlife.

Given his current state, he very probably could try to get into the CG or TN afterlife as well and be very happy. Given what I know of Eugene, he'd probably be happy in some LE afterlife as long as he gets left alone with his research and gets (forced) praise from others for his work.

[Chobarth]

Yes, that's the funny thing: He does not care how it's done to get into the LG afterlife and by that he actually has reached the conclusion he does not really has to go into the LG afterlife.

Given his current state, he very probably could try to get into the CG or TN afterlife as well and be very happy. Given what I know of Eugene, he'd probably be happy in some LE afterlife as long as he gets left alone with his research and gets (forced) praise from others for his work.

I've always found it suspect just how fast he agreed to Roy's request that he not see his family in the afterlife. (i forget the exact strip) It felt much too much like he had knowledge Roy didn't possess and it was a suckers agreement.

I've been patiently waiting for this to resolve for ages. I don't expect any answers until the the final chapters roll out.

[Winter]

It might be Eugene thinks he'll join his family anyway, there's no way around it in some way? Or he does think he will not get forced anyway to hold true to that agreement... once you are in, you are in?

On the other hand, does he even want to join his family (the part of it that is dead)?
He dislikes his grandfather, has not cared for his wife in years (even if he probably does like her and did love her), and he only has contempt for his son.
That there is some "true but hidden feeling" for Roy seems to become more unlikely with each time we see him.

So far, Roy seems to be the unliked child who did all wrong and now is the sucker who has to get his dad into the afterlife. There is no warmth at all in Eugene for Roy beyond what "Roy can do for him".

[ThePhantasm]

Eugene's rationale for keeping V on the team isn't much different from Roy's rationale for keeping Belkar on the team. They know they are evil but want them pointed against the bad guys. V is more of a ticking time bomb, sure, but Eugene is willing to take the risk.

[Belril Duskwalk]

I've always found it suspect just how fast he agreed to Roy's request that he not see his family in the afterlife. (i forget the exact strip) It felt much too much like he had knowledge Roy didn't possess and it was a suckers agreement.

I've been patiently waiting for this to resolve for ages. I don't expect any answers until the the final chapters roll out.

My thought has always been that he was quite serious about his 'till death do us part' ("http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0039.html) line. But I suppose Eugene being aware he's probably not getting into Celestia could also be the reason behind it.

[TheZenMaster]

Eugene's rationale for keeping V on the team isn't much different from Roy's rationale for keeping Belkar on the team.

There is a difference. For one, Roy takes note of Belkars doings. What if V DIDN'T have a turnabout?

There can be a larger problem that arises later because of this.

V being there screwed everything up except the fleet.

The fiends now have a plan for his soul.

He didn't alert his son only because this is how he thinks things should be done. That the action itself was completely justified.

He had no other reason to do so.

[Winter]

Eugene's rationale for keeping V on the team isn't much different from Roy's rationale for keeping Belkar on the team. They know they are evil but want them pointed against the bad guys. V is more of a ticking time bomb, sure, but Eugene is willing to take the risk.

Where'd you get that insight into him?

I rather assume Eugene does not really care for anything but for Xykon's destruction which would release him from the Etearnal Waiting Hall (which is also some kind of "hell"). Only selfishness to see here.