"Blackwing", a mole sent by the IFCC? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

cloudland

2012-03-05, 06:30 PM

There have been vague hint pointing toward this, but this comics suddenly make it rather obvious that Blackwing have been the agent for the IFCC that is sent to manipulate V, as this relevation is dawn on me as I read today comics. The original Blackwing died long ago, probably during the Azure city arc. This new "Blackwing" is not the real Blackwing anymore, but rather, a replacement, who is not even a familiar at all.

Hints that scattered throughout the comics:
1. This "Blackwing" try to stop V from feeling remorseful for her action (by rationalizing it), and also never try to talk V out in the first place, even though it's capable of doing it (it knows about the event, and the real Blackwing never disappeared altogether when forgotten, only invisible).
2. This "Blackwing" can't use telepathic communication anymore, even if it want to say something secretly (such as when it try to whisper to V, or ask something that would be faster if asked in telepathic link).
3. This "Blackwing" do everything it can to keep V still in the Order, including helping V purchase diamond dust, and lend him advise to avoid getting her kicked out of the party, which is exactly what the IFCC want. On the other hand, it knows that V would never abandon her quest to save a marriage after all she had paid for, so it did not actively try to stop her from doing that.
4. This "Blackwing" do not know anything specific about V before she meet Sabine, it refers to events before that in nonspecific terms.
5. Zzdtri is not even a pawn of the IFCC, since the IFCC never realize he's still alive for a while. Qarr is in fact have long been converted to neutral by unknown side in the neutral alignment to infiltrate the IFCC, and helped them to make a deal to gain the trust of the IFCC, and is then sent by the IFCC to be Zzdtri familiar because they do not want to get killed. Of course, Qarr hunt down "Blackwing" because Qarr do not want the IFCC to success, and know from the IFCC that "Blackwing" is actually their agent. Qarr worked for Kubota show that it would gain IFCC trust when it made a deal.
6. "Blackwing" did not appear during the Tiny Island arc, even though it would have been a very simple way to solve the dragon's threat problem.
7. "Blackwing" did not throw the phylactery into the rift. If lich cannot recreate their phylactery, this would at least put Xykon's doom a significant step closer. The IFCC at least want Xykon to be alive for a while (so that V have the reason to get to other gate), so this is in fact consistent with their goal. Of course, what it claims to have seen in the rift might be still real, and it's just as surprised as IFCC did about the nature of the Snarl.
8. Various instance of OOTS member failed to recognize "Blackwing" including Haley.

Point 1 is the one that's shown quite obviously in this comics, other point lend strong support.
My guess is that the original Blackwing died somewhere before the Tiny Island arc (probably in Azure city war) and this new "Blackwing" came attached as a bonus for the deal but is actually IFCC agent (and it's not even a familiar). It is magically made to make other people disbelieve it hence why nobody else think it's a real creature. Qarr know that "Blackwing" exist since he get the inside information from the IFCC, and presumably he also tell Zzdtri about it too. The IFCC of course have studied V extensively since Sabine tell about V, and thus can impact these knowledge onto this "Blackwing" so that it can said more specifically about event happened after V met Sabine.
What do you think?

Halleflux

2012-03-05, 06:43 PM

...

797

No.

Why?

1. This "Blackwing" try to stop V from feeling remorseful for her action (by rationalizing it), and also never try to talk V out in the first place, even though it's capable of doing it (it knows about the event, and the real Blackwing never disappeared altogether when forgotten, only invisible).

This is because V was not thinking about the familiar, and such, so Blackwing did not appear.

2. This "Blackwing" can't use telepathic communication anymore, even if it want to say something secretly (such as when it try to whisper to V, or ask something that would be faster if asked in telepathic link).

That's because this was we can actually see it.

3. This "Blackwing" do everything it can to keep V still in the Order, including helping V purchase diamond dust, and lend him advise to avoid getting her kicked out of the party, which is exactly what the IFCC want. On the other hand, it knows that V would never abandon her quest to save a marriage after all she had paid for, so it did not actively try to stop her from doing that.

...That's because Blackwing wants to help out, not that it's a big setup...

4. This "Blackwing" do not know anything specific about V before she meet Sabine, it refers to events before that in nonspecific terms.

Um, attempting to see though your bad grammar, I think that's because BLACKWING WASN'T THERE FOR THE FIRST 200-300 COMICS. (apart from one at the very start)

5. Zzdtri is not even a pawn of the IFCC, since the IFCC never realize he's still alive for a while. Qarr is in fact have long been converted to neutral by unknown side in the neutral alignment to infiltrate the IFCC, and helped them to make a deal to gain the trust of the IFCC, and is then sent by the IFCC to be Zzdtri familiar because they do not want to get killed. Of course, Qarr hunt down "Blackwing" because Qarr do not want the IFCC to success, and know from the IFCC that "Blackwing" is actually their agent. Qarr worked for Kubota show that it would gain IFCC trust when it made a deal.

Wait, Quaar is now a mole too?? No.

6. "Blackwing" did not appear during the Tiny Island arc, even though it would have been a very simple way to solve the dragon's threat problem.

Read the FAQ. (Why didn't char X do action Y for problem Z?)

7. "Blackwing" did not throw the phylactery into the rift. If lich cannot recreate their phylactery, this would at least put Xykon's doom a significant step closer. The IFCC at least want Xykon to be alive for a while (so that V have the reason to get to other gate), so this is in fact consistent with their goal. Of course, what it claims to have seen in the rift might be still real, and it's just as surprised as IFCC did about the nature of the Snarl.

Blackwing was fascinated by the other planet or whatever it is.

8. Various instance of OOTS member failed to recognize "Blackwing" including Haley.

A joke that keeps on happening, like I prepared explosive runes this morning.

Math_Mage

2012-03-05, 06:46 PM

4. This "Blackwing" do not know anything specific about V before she meet Sabine, it refers to events before that in nonspecific terms.

"No, I said speaking to YOU in Common was demeaning. Try not to remind me of why."

The rest is WMG that makes "The dead bodies are all an illusion" look totally ordinary by comparison.

Jaros

2012-03-05, 06:53 PM

1) I see that more as trying to keep V stable, and not lose hirself in a whirlpool of despair. Not saying it was the right thing to do, but that's what I saw it as.

2) They had an empathic link, that communicates feelings, not a telepathic link, which communicates thoughts.

3) How is helping V a hint that he/she (does Blackwing have a confirmed gender? I forget) is a spy?

4) I don't think I understand this point, can you elaborate?

5) That's not a hint, that's a wild theory with no proof.

6) Eh, this was before Blackwing returned as a proper character, and V (severely trance deprived & not in any fit state of mind) usually forgot about it's existence altogether.

7) We already have a reason for that and I see no reason as of yet to disbelieve it, especially since it was the basis of some potentially game-changing information

8) I'm still going with "this is a joke" whenever anyone brings it up.

ThePhantasm

2012-03-05, 07:03 PM

Dungeonstone

2012-03-05, 07:12 PM

In D&D wizards have a telepathic link to their familiars and even a character as self centered as V would notice if that link were suddenly terminated due to the death of the familiar.

So... No.

Ravian

2012-03-05, 07:15 PM

While this is interesting there are problems with the theory

First of all: Blackwing can only manifest if V is actively acknowledging his existense, he was the last thing on V's mind during the tiny island arc, since V was too focused on research.

Quarr does not seem likely to be neutral at all, especially based on Quarr and Blackwing's conversation. There was no one else in earshot so why would Blackwing assume that Quarr was working with the IFCC if he is working with the IFCC. Also Quarr was the one berrating Sabine for focusing on Nale over the IFCC. Also Quarr, as a devil has a very, very slim chance of changing from Lawful Evil, such a thing typically only happens through a fluke in their creation or a massive sort of redemption, neither of which we have evidence to suspect from Quarr.

Also all of those things assuming that Blackwing is helping V to stay with the order does not seem to point to Blackwing being a mole. The order is the best chance the world has, and who wouldn't try to buy something for a teammate after they had been kicked out of the shop.

The rationalizing is something a friend would do, not a mole. Imagine this scenerio

Your friend is lying in a fetal position, sobbing.
You go up to them to find out what is the matter.
They tell you that while they were out hunting in a non-approved hunting site they accidently shot a child. They are eintirely in the wrong here and should have realized that such an event was a very probable concequence.
They are absolutely sure that for doing such a thing that they should be arrested, put in prison for life or even killed, and then spend eternity in Tartarus.
What do you do?

If your answer was to agree that they are a horrible person and should die a horrible death right in their face, then you're not a very good friend, even if you believe that.

Me? I would try to console them, try to get them to pull themself together, because despite the fact that they should have seen this coming, it still was in essence was an accident. They did not make a consious decission to kill a child, only some wildlife. Sure I would have to call the police, but I would still try to help them all the way.

What V did was an evil act, and he/she should have realized that something like this could have happened, but V is clearly feeling remorse for hir actions, and as such is not necessarily a horrible person. Blackwing is simply trying to be there for V.

Leolo

2012-03-05, 07:30 PM

Blackwing (the "new" blackwing) also remembers a tiny lizard that happens to be his polymorphed master. So if there was an exchange this had to be before V get polymorphed into a lizard.

That seems to much a stretch.

the purple lizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0714.html)

JCarter426

2012-03-05, 07:36 PM

3. This "Blackwing" do everything it can to keep V still in the Order, including helping V purchase diamond dust, and lend him advise to avoid getting her kicked out of the party, which is exactly what the IFCC want. On the other hand, it knows that V would never abandon her quest to save a marriage after all she had paid for, so it did not actively try to stop her from doing that.
It's also what V wants, so I don't see how this point is relevant.

4. This "Blackwing" do not know anything specific about V before she meet Sabine, it refers to events before that in nonspecific terms.
Eh? :smallconfused: Two things:

1. Blackwing first appeared in strip #3, for two panels. Sabine first appeared in strip #43. Blackwing next appeared in strip #154. We are now at strip #843. In short, barely anything happened before Sabine's first appearance and Blackwing wasn't even there.

2. What "nonspecific terms" are you talking about? Blackwing has referenced things that happened when Sabine wasn't around, such as V turning into a lizard, so I don't really follow.

Furthermore, Sabine is just another pawn, not the mastermind behind this whole fifth column plot. The three fiends have access to epic magic, so if there were some sort of fifth column plot involving Blackwing, it wouldn't have these kinds of holes - or at least, these holes wouldn't be evidence of such a plot, because the theory shouldn't be based on the supposition that the schemers are incompetent.

5. Zzdtri is not even a pawn of the IFCC, since the IFCC never realize he's still alive for a while. Qarr is in fact have long been converted to neutral by unknown side in the neutral alignment to infiltrate the IFCC, and helped them to make a deal to gain the trust of the IFCC, and is then sent by the IFCC to be Zzdtri familiar because they do not want to get killed. Of course, Qarr hunt down "Blackwing" because Qarr do not want the IFCC to success, and know from the IFCC that "Blackwing" is actually their agent. Qarr worked for Kubota show that it would gain IFCC trust when it made a deal.
Zz'ditri was out of commission at the time of the fiends' first appearance. They never said he was dead, or said anything that would suggest they thought he was dead. In fact, it's likely they're the ones who got him out of trouble, given that they do have that level of resources and they paired him up with Qarr.

Now, on the matter of Qarr... are you suggesting that it is more likely that he has been seduced to the side of neutrality and became Z's real, able, and willing familiar... rather than he's simply an evil imp doing the bidding of his evil masters? Ok, maybe that sort of convoluted plot isn't completely out of the question, but I don't see any evidence for that here. All creatures we've seen thus far fit their creature type as described, in terms of alignment, even when they're a satire of said alignment restrictions. So there's no precedence for it, and it wouldn't fit in thematically, in my opinion.

Also, you see to be assuming that Zz'dtri is neutral rather than evil, so Qarr must be as well if he's really Z's familiar. I don't believe there's any basis for that, but let's not start arguing alignments. Additionally, imps aren't available as a familiar to anyone of any alignment.

6. "Blackwing" did not appear during the Tiny Island arc, even though it would have been a very simple way to solve the dragon's threat problem.
I don't see how Blackwing could have defeated the dragon. Blackwing doesn't have any magical abilities of his own, and he can't fly faster than a dragon can teleport.

8. Various instance of OOTS member failed to recognize "Blackwing" including Haley.
They don't remember that Blackwing ever existed; it's not an issue of them not recognizing Blackwing.

wzeller

2012-03-05, 07:36 PM

In his spare time, does Fake Blackwing hang out with Fake Paul McCartney? Each of them are equally ludicrous theories.

cloudland

2012-03-05, 10:27 PM

Oh ok, I got mixed up by the telepathic and empathic link, so that point is out. It's possible that V did not notice the link if she did not think about the familiar, so she would not notice any think odd. And the rest of the point still stand.

And I actually meant to said Point 1 was shown in this comic, not point 4, bad typo, I will fix it. Of course, today comics is really the main reason why I realized this theory, as previous hints wasn't very obvious. Think of it this way, if your friend did something wrong and cause hundred of death, would you try to comfort them and rationalizing it for them? Of course not! That would just encourage them to repeat the action, a good friend would condemn them throughoutly so that they would not repeat it in the future. I was expecting the real Blackwing to have some choice words for V, not comforting. This is the most obvious hint that this Blackwing is fake.

Sabine meet V somewhere in the first dungeon, between then and the purple lizard episode, Sabine could have easily mentioned V to the archfriends, and the archfiend could have easily scry on her to know about the purple lizard episode (sure they are not interested in V then because they did not know about the gate yet, but they might record it just in case, and since Xykon have Teevo they might have something similar).

And as 2 instances of "Blackwing" incapable of knowing V's past except in vague general term:
"No I said speaking to YOU in Common was demeaning". You should try this with your friend. Do something which contradict what you said to them right in front of them, and when they ask, twist the word a bit so it seems like you're perfectly consistent. Most likely they will thought they remembered it wrong (even if you just said that a week ago). Same here, this "Blackwing" suddenly realized that its action contradict the real Blackwing, so it make up an excuse, and said "Try not to remind me why" to avoid further suspicion.

"You have been away from home for years, and even when you were there...well..." (#679) another instance (rather obvious in hindsight) of how this "Blackwing" are incapable of talking in specific about what happened before V meet Sabine (the next panel is V's flashback, not what it said next).

Blackwing have been away there for V, even when V did not remember it. It's simply invisible. As V said so herself every time she remember it, the familiar have been with V all along.

Zzdtri was crossed out in the picture the IFCC show to Qarr as their pawn (this is the main reason for point 5). He also said he has never stopped working for Nale. So where have he been the whole time? Presumably he is not even known to Sabine, but still work behind her back under Nale secret command. No Zzdtri I think is still evil, it's just that Qarr is not evil, and is a mole sent by some neutral alignment to infiltrate the IFCC. Sure imp is usually lawful evil, but that is not that hard to fix, and beside, alignment rule have not been really rigid in this story anyway (how does Xykon manage to "rub" evil onto the crown? or how does Durkon serve Thor when one is lawful and the other chaotic?).

Qarr still have to act evil, even while talking to "Blackwing" because he know "Blackwing" is a mole, and thus there is a chance the IFCC is watching. He don't want to show his real side, because then the IFCC will question him on why he attack "Blackwing". As it stands now he can basically said he did not know "Blackwing" was the mole the next time the IFCC meet him, and he have that one chance to kill off "Blackwing" once and for all.

OOTS not recognizing Blackwing is definitely a plot point, because this is basically the ONLY reason why the OOTS is not informed about what is in the rift yet, which would have major effect on the story. Beside it's hard to believe why would the OOTS think Blackwing as an illusion (if they don't remember Blackwing, the least they could think that this is a recently acquired familiar, but even then it's a stretch that Haley also forgot).

"Blackwing" could have throw the phylactery in the rift first, and then be fascinated about the planet. It didn't, so what it really do is delay for Xykon to catch up.

I don't see the FAQ about why X don't do Y, and I'm not familiar with this forum, so can someone point it out?

theNater

2012-03-05, 10:56 PM

Think of it this way, if your friend did something wrong and cause hundred of death, would you try to comfort them and rationalizing it for them?
If they were so struck by guilt that they couldn't manage to navigate a flight of stairs, then yes. Yes I would. In fact, if my worst enemy were to cry out "What have I done?!" and collapse in a sobbing heap in front of me, I would attempt to provide comfort there, too. That's a terrible state for anyone to be in.

Once they are crippled with guilt, they don't need my condemnation to want to avoid repeating their actions; the guilt is a sufficient disincentive all by itself.

Tetsujin-28

2012-03-05, 11:01 PM

Yes, also, the bodies are all an illusion, Haley's an aasimar, and Roy is actually Anel.

McDouggal

2012-03-05, 11:07 PM

*snip*

Er... no. Blackwing is now a big enough character to HAVE to be shown to die on panel.

EDIT: and my friends WOULD try to rationalize it for me if I had done that IRL. Would your friends and family do that? Yes. They might blame you, but they'd try to help you pull through.

ti'esar

2012-03-05, 11:11 PM

Yes, also, the bodies are all an illusion, Haley's an aasimar, and Roy is actually Anel.

You left out the "planet inside the rift" and "Belkar's death" theories.

Ooh, I know - Belkar winds up heading there and is not long for this world...

Er... no. Blackwing is now a big enough character to HAVE to be shown to die on panel.

Devil's advocate: in the unlikely event this is actually true, the Blackwing who's become a major character is a fake - the Blackwing that actually died off-panel was never anything but an occasional joke.

Steward

2012-03-06, 12:45 AM

I have to admit, I'd probably be a little disappointed if this theory was true. Essentially, it would mean that a moderate-sized portion of character development for a protagonist (as well as a pretty interesting secondary character) was all an elaborate and implausible scam.

It's not quite as maddening as the, "It was all a dream" 'twist', but it's a cousin to the, "That character you got to know and care about over the course of three seasons' worth of character development? He was only an alien robot clone who doesn't matter, so you might as well just forget about him" twist, which is just frustrating.

grassy

2012-03-06, 01:00 AM

Murray

2012-03-06, 09:24 AM

Can we be certain that this "Blackwing" isn't really Girard in some sort of illusory disguise (who is also actually half-celestial, so survived the Familicide casting, and is related to Haley, explaining her being part Celestial)?

And how do we know that the IFCC is really as harmonious as they appear? Is Qarr being played by the LE partner against Blackwing (Girard) who's really an agent of the CE partner?

And how does Right-Eye's daughter fit into this?

[EDIT] :smallwink:

Kornaki

2012-03-06, 09:53 AM

You're right. There's no way that the rest of the Order would have forgotten about Blackwing. The only possible conclusion is that they're not the rest of the Order. Since at least that strip V has been caught in one of Girard's illusions all by himself. We now know that Girard knows about the familicide spell in order to construct this illusion, so we know that the soul-selling itself must have been an illusion.

The IFCC is Girard's undercover identity to control the devils and demons for his bidding. Their ultimate plan for the gate is just to kill everyone who knows about it. There was no soul selling, it was an illusion. Roy is still dead, but thinks he's alive by an illusion so he doesn't visit V in one of his dreams to inform him about the lie. The rest of the Order is still scattered or possibly dead at this point, because we haven't seen them on strip for real for about 300 strips at this point

Studoku

2012-03-06, 10:17 AM

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that Pelor is actually the Snarl.

allenw

2012-03-06, 12:54 PM

Devil's advocate: in the unlikely event this is actually true, the Blackwing who's become a major character is a fake - the Blackwing that actually died off-panel was never anything but an occasional joke.

I don't subscribe to the OP's particular theory, but if Blackwing *did* die, I don't think it was off-panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0660.html)

Dwy

2012-03-06, 01:00 PM

Blackwing is a normal crow, taught to speak, and dominated by Durkon, who's multi-classed the previous levels, and casts invisibility on the bird whenever it fits his evil plan to use the flesh of his dead teammates for evil pizza.

BaronOfHell

2012-03-06, 01:06 PM

I think blackwing as a mole is a cool theory and it's very well thought of you!:smallsmile:

However a lot of your reasoning I do disagree with. Since reasons have already been stated in this thread, I don't think I need to go into details. I'd just like to point out when you've to introduce a whole new unknown even more powerful side to the conflict to make sense of things, then your theory is premature. In general, I think foreshadowing in the comic is important for any theory to be approved and if there's no such mention, your speculation will stand really really weak.

PS: I'd also do what blackwing does in stead of condemning V in such a state of mind.

Ravian

2012-03-06, 01:23 PM

if your friend did something wrong and cause hundred of death, would you try to comfort them and rationalizing it for them? Of course not! That would just encourage them to repeat the action, a good friend would condemn them throughoutly so that they would not repeat it in the future. I was expecting the real Blackwing to have some choice words for V, not comforting. This is the most obvious hint that this Blackwing is fake.

...
I'm going to assume you are one of the people who think's that V is incapable of redemption for hir arctions and should burn in Tartarus for eternity...

Perhaps you don't eintirely realize what a friend is supposed to do. A friend does not berate someone who is lying in a fetal position about how horrible they are, this solves nothing. They already clearly realize this was a horrible thing to do. Quivering on the floor is not going to make anything better, you need them to realize that while such an action was completely wrong crying over it doesn't make it all better. If Blackwing did what you described to V then he would be no better then Haley's self-loathing after the boat left without her.

cloudland

2012-03-06, 05:04 PM

Geez, someone misinterpret what I said and the whole thing cascade....I'm not saying "Blackwing" is an illusion by Girard at all, it's real, but is seen as illusion by almost everyone by magical mean.

Blackwing could have helped V against the raven by getting pen and paper, then Qarr can teleport to inform V's master about the dragon, instead of the less reliable method of cutting her own head.

And I think Qarr is really a foreshadow to another side to the conflict. Otherwise, we would have to accept that Qarr is just an independent monster who just happen to stumble upon Kubota and help him. Beside, it explains why he try to kill "Blackwing" who is actually a mole.

And "Blackwing" being fake would not destroy character development at all. V's character development would be still there, and we still have the fake Blackwing as the secondary character.

And I don't think V is incapable of redemption. All I'm saying is, rationalizing for someone will just encourage them to do it again, so a good friend would never ever try to rationalize, but they would condemn with harsh word. Sure their conscience might be sufficient to stop them from repeating it, but the least a friend can do is to not subdue their conscience by rationalizing it.

Without accepting that "Blackwing" is evil, it's pretty impossible to explain why it try to comfort and rationalize for V.

Math_Mage

2012-03-06, 05:17 PM

Qarr WAS an independent agent making Kubota more evil. Now he's explicitly an agent of IFCC. Why would he have an issue with Blackwing if Blackwing was a mole of IFCC? Unless we postulate deep cover, which can explain anything.

And I don't think it's at all difficult to explain why a wizard's familiar might try to comfort his master without postulating that the familiar is a secret agent of fiends who replaced the familiar without the master noticing, who is only comforting his master because it will ultimately make his master more evil through some unexplained process. :smallconfused:

ti'esar

2012-03-06, 06:02 PM

Without accepting that "Blackwing" is evil, it's pretty impossible to explain why it try to comfort and rationalize for V.

Please tell me you are joking.

NoobForHire

2012-03-06, 06:14 PM

Additionally, imps aren't available as a familiar to anyone of any alignment.

Actually, you can get them with Improved Familiar.

BaronOfHell

2012-03-06, 06:21 PM

You're completely correct that some replies certainly did imply things you never stated and extrapolated from said stand point. It's not that your theory is not self-consistent. It's that it makes assumptions that are simply not easy to accept. E.g. this quote:

All I'm saying is, rationalizing for someone will just encourage them to do it again, so a good friend would never ever try to rationalize, but they would condemn with harsh word. Sure their conscience might be sufficient to stop them from repeating it, but the least a friend can do is to not subdue their conscience by rationalizing it.
Is vastly oversimplifying on many different levels. I know about emotional feedback, and yeah it can work great, if you allow it to. V is a person of rationalizing and not very emotional in general. As such, this untypical state of mind is not something I think will work in V's favor at all. Do you know what happens, if one tries to apply such feedback on someone who's no or little emotional control? It leads to bad bad impulses in many cases.
In a case like this there'll be plenty of time to remind V of what this kind of stuff can lead to, if needed. To much negative feedback would however risk doing more harm than good in the sense it might make V alienate blackwing, and if blackwing made a negative reinforcement against the whole familicide deal, it might not seem like such a bad thing anymore from a very simplistic point of view.

From a less simplistic point of view, dropping the whole feedback talk, the thing V needs right now is not someone to condemn V, but someone to be there for V, a real friend. You'd condemn V and that's your choice, but I think you'd make the wrong choice.

Without accepting that "Blackwing" is evil, it's pretty impossible to explain why it try to comfort and rationalize for V.

Because blackwing doesn't see the world like you do and your perception is not an objective measure of alignment.

Aquillion

2012-03-06, 06:40 PM

I don't agree with the OP, but admittedly I expected to find Blackwing haranguing V in #843 with a few "I told you so"s or some sort of sarcastic remark, rather than his sort of attempt at futile reassurance / comforting.I think Blackwing is doing the right thing.

Having V wallow in guilt doesn't help anyone or anything. The right thing to do, now that V is accepting responsibility, is to move on and try to atone for it as much as possible.

Also, remember: Blackwing is also V's friend. It's natural to try and comfort a friend.

t209

2012-03-06, 06:46 PM

Why do you think Blackwing is a mole by IFCC to turn V into evil? He was just trying to keep him sane and confident? If he felt guilty about familicide all the time, he would become like Don't Split the party (He got nightmare for failing to rescue the soldiers in azure city.)

Cavenskull

2012-03-06, 07:09 PM

...All I'm saying is, rationalizing for someone will just encourage them to do it again, so a good friend would never ever try to rationalize, but they would condemn with harsh word. Sure their conscience might be sufficient to stop them from repeating it, but the least a friend can do is to not subdue their conscience by rationalizing it.
Condemnation is for people who haven't yet learned their lesson. For people who already understand and regret their mistakes, it's better to be comforting and guide them on the correct path. It's better to think forward to what they need to be doing right, rather than constantly dwelling on what they did wrong.

Without accepting that "Blackwing" is evil, it's pretty impossible to explain why it try to comfort and rationalize for V.
Really.

How about this for a reason: Xykon and Redcloack could pop in at any moment to put a plan into motion that could oppress or destroy everyone on the planet, and right now the Order of the Stick is all that stands in their way. Is rubbing in the guilt so important that it's worth making Vaarsuvius incapable of helping to defend the gate? It's hard to cast spells while being a potentially suicidal, sobbing heap on the floor.

Speaking of suicide, that's the sort of thing that's a real risk at this point. And considering how hard it is for dead people to even begin to atone for their misdeeds, perhaps Vaarsuvius could do more good while alive than dead.

Also, in a fantasy environment such as this, getting seduced to evil is always a possibility. Would you really want to berate someone so badly that they run to someone else for comfort--someone else who has no problems mixing comforting words with evil ideas?

Treating someone as if they're too stupid to understand the lesson that's already quite clearly devastating them is a great way to alienate them.

Murray

2012-03-06, 08:03 PM

Actually, 'good' characters alienating a neutral character is a pretty good way to push said neutral character towards the deep end of the alignment pool.

I do like the concept of the raven being a mole, but much of your evidence requires too many extreme twists to be believable. If you weren't also pushing that Qarr is yet another mole for an as yet unidentified party, then your arguments might actually hold up better.

I'd find it more believable that the IFCC has stacked the deck so full of pawns, that their own agents are as likely to fight each other as not. All in the name of destructive, unnecessary conflict (ref: panel 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)), and having to rely on employees and contractors to do the dirty work.

If Blackwing was a spy, for someone else, like the elves, then that may be interesting and possibly easier to prove. With Lirian gone, what would the elves do about the gates and the snarl? Do the elves even know the full picture?

Squark

2012-03-06, 08:21 PM

Also, OP, remember the last (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)few times (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html) V was wildly emotional?

I think it's been established that when V is incredibly distraught, his decision making suffers horribly, and almost always to the determent of others.

Even if you don't believe that most people would try to comfort their friend when they've fallen down the stairs and gone into the fetal position due to extreme guild, it's still reasonable to believe Blackwing might try to prevent V from doing something dangerous again.

MesiDoomstalker

2012-03-06, 08:29 PM

Of all characters who could be trapped with V in his current state, I think only one character would be better than Blackwing, who seems to become a physical embodiment of V's concious (like Jimmney Cricket). That one other character I think would be Elan. His childish, simplistic view could help settle V and see clearly and get past his emotional and moral short-fallings at least for the short-term when the world is no longer threatened.

KillianHawkeye

2012-03-06, 10:39 PM

@ Cloudland:

What you are doing here is cherry-picking certain bits of information which fit your theory and claiming that they are evidence, rather than examining the evidence and coming up with a theory to explain it. All of your so-called "evidence" can also be explained in other ways.

Do not forget Occam's Razor, which states that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

Without stronger evidence, which can't be easily explained, this theory is unfounded.

Cavenskull

2012-03-07, 04:35 PM

Blackwing could have helped V against the raven by getting pen and paper, then Qarr can teleport to inform V's master about the dragon, instead of the less reliable method of cutting her own head.
So, Vaarsuvius, who somehow managed to bring a personal library of books to the tiny island, somehow managed to not bring a pen and paper along? It's hard to believe that Vaarsuvius would deliberately head to a remote location specifically for the purposes of performing research, without bringing along basic items critical for the purpose. I have trouble believing that Vaarsuvius doesn't believe in taking notes.

And if somehow Vaarsuvius did forget those items, isn't it already too late for Blackwing to go after them? In fact, it would be faster for Vaarsuvius to do it, because it would be a one way trip for Vaarsuvius, whereas Blackwing would have to make a round trip.

Even if Blackwing did deliver a pen and paper to Vaarsuvius, what good will that do? It's already been established that a message from an Imp isn't going to be believed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html).

Morgan Wick

2012-03-09, 07:10 PM

A very interesting, almost convincing theory, until you examine the house of cards it's built on.

Of course, today comics is really the main reason why I realized this theory, as previous hints wasn't very obvious. Think of it this way, if your friend did something wrong and cause hundred of death, would you try to comfort them and rationalizing it for them? Of course not! That would just encourage them to repeat the action, a good friend would condemn them throughoutly so that they would not repeat it in the future. I was expecting the real Blackwing to have some choice words for V, not comforting. This is the most obvious hint that this Blackwing is fake.
I mean this in the best possible way and as someone who never has a friend himself, but have you ever had a friend? And if so, have you ever been in a situation like this, on either end?

And as 2 instances of "Blackwing" incapable of knowing V's past except in vague general term:
"No I said speaking to YOU in Common was demeaning". You should try this with your friend. Do something which contradict what you said to them right in front of them, and when they ask, twist the word a bit so it seems like you're perfectly consistent. Most likely they will thought they remembered it wrong (even if you just said that a week ago). Same here, this "Blackwing" suddenly realized that its action contradict the real Blackwing, so it make up an excuse, and said "Try not to remind me why" to avoid further suspicion.

"You have been away from home for years, and even when you were there...well..." (#679) another instance (rather obvious in hindsight) of how this "Blackwing" are incapable of talking in specific about what happened before V meet Sabine (the next panel is V's flashback, not what it said next).
That would be a rather unusual use of convention, for Blackwing to start that setup and the panel that follows to be someone else's flashback. If you read the introduction to Origins, Rich has withheld much of V's past because of its future plot importance (and I don't think that's limited to what his family is), which is a more convincing reason for Blackwing to dissemble about it, and I don't think Blackwing has referred to anything from Origins or the Original 42 before V met Sabine.

I don't see the FAQ about why X don't do Y, and I'm not familiar with this forum, so can someone point it out?

Look under the News column.

On the other hand:

8) I'm still going with "this is a joke" whenever anyone brings it up.

And I continue to loathe anyone who brushes that off as a joke as opposed to a plot point, as it arguably says far worse things (http://webcomics.morganwick.com/2010/04/please-dont-tell-me-the-only-point-of-roy-remembering-everything-about-his-trip-to-the-oracle-was-to-fill-a-plot-hole-in-panel-2-of-698/)about Rich and the comic if he was willing to bend their characters that much for a mere joke, one that's already been told better and in all its fundamentals before.

Jaros

2012-03-09, 07:33 PM

And I continue to loathe anyone who brushes that off as a joke as opposed to a plot point, as it arguably says far worse things (http://webcomics.morganwick.com/2010/04/please-dont-tell-me-the-only-point-of-roy-remembering-everything-about-his-trip-to-the-oracle-was-to-fill-a-plot-hole-in-panel-2-of-698/)about Rich and the comic if he was willing to bend their characters that much for a mere joke, one that's already been told better and in all its fundamentals before.

I really don't see it as bending the characters, though. And I fail to understand why people think it can't be a joke because they preferred other iterations of the joke. I'm not saying it's impossible that it's a plot point, just that personally I doubt it.

cloudland

2012-03-14, 03:06 PM

Ravian

2012-03-14, 03:36 PM

Sorry for the late reply, I was busy.

Blackwing need to get pen and paper for V on that island, because all her books have been scattered after the fight with that dragon (which went from one side of the island to another). V can't travel fast, but Blackwing can. But that wasn't the case, suggesting that Blackwing wasn't even exist at all.

V only really acknowledged Blackwing when he was in vital need of him at the time, like to distract a death knight, or scout the bandit camp. V doesn't use him for tasks he could complete on his own, because the option of do it yourself comes up beforehand. It's kind of like when you're looking for a solution to a problem at hand in a D&D game, you rapidly scan through your character sheet and remember "Oh Yeah! my familiar! he can do that for me!" Otherwise you just do the most obvious, if not the most efficient option at the time. As a familiar Blackwing genrally can only work on his master's orders, but he can interpret them how he believes he can do them best. In the fight with the Linear Guild we can presume that V emphatically told Blackwing to help the party as best he could, which is why he got Mr. Scruffy the belt, since from where Blackwing was looking he was in more need of it.

And I never have any friends who collapse in remorse after accidentally killing dozens of people due to a lack of foresight when he undertake an act out of pure vengence, so I can't vouch on what I did in such case. But if I ever have one such friend, the least I would do is mock sarcastically.

:smallfrown:...No offence but remind me not to be friends with you...

This is a simplified version of how Blackwing would console V (erasing any upcoming plotlines or distractions like the trap)
Friend: Wow I feel horrible about what I did
You:I know it was a horrible thing to do but you can't just lie on the floor feeling sorry for yourself, it was a stupid decision and now you need to do something about it. Now come on we need to save the universe.
Friend: I guess you're right

Based on your reasoning this would the most probable outcome:
-Later-
Friend: Hmm it was really bad to do that horrible thing I did, but I guess I can do it again because my friend didn't hurt my feelings about it.

Meanwhile your way would probably go like this
Friend: Wow I feel horrible about what I did
You: You should be more than that you slimy monstrocity, do you realize how many people who killed? You're so bad that if Freddie Krouger and Jason Voorheas had a baby, you would be that baby!
Friend: -Breaks down into a sobbing coma, having lost all will to live-
You: But you know there is a really evil guy coming to take over the world, so if you wanted to help a bit...
Friend:-unresponsive-
You:...crap:smalleek:

SinsI

2012-03-14, 03:42 PM

I'm quite sure V would have noticed making a Fortitude save accompanied by the loss of >1300 XPs...

Math_Mage

2012-03-14, 03:54 PM