Free Cantrips for everyone! [3.5]

[yougi]

Hey there!

So I am working on a Homebrew setting for 3.5 DnD, and I was inspired by The Elder Scrolls in making everyone able to use magic to some extent. The way I intended on doing it was to give every humanoid in my world a level 0 spell that they can cast once or twice per day, regardless of class. I was even thinking of giving higher level spells, or more spells, to higher level characters (e.g. you get a 1st level spell to cast once a day at lv 5, and a 2nd lv spell at lv9, all cumulative of course). I was thinking of making it random (d100 at character creation).

Has anyone else tried this, or something like it? What are your thoughts? Should I change my system? Leave it as is? Forget it completely?

[Silva Stormrage]

Well it's flavorful and I don't see it unbalancing anything at all. Most characters will choose presdigation though (Read 90%) so you might want to ban that one from being chosen or accept that everyone has that one.

[Winds]

I would think pick one cantrip to use as a SLA, with the caveat that as it's a particular knack for one type of spell, it needs to have only one function.

Another concern might be that getting the same feel as Elder Scolls magic in DND is that mages can cast all day, since they use a replenishing resource. I suspect your homebrew will have magic function closer to warlock than wiz/sorc.

[Coidzor]

Should be fine. Wouldn't be broken for them to be at will like in pathfinder, even.

You could also just give people the Magical Training feat (player's guide to faerun) as a bonus feat, though you'd probably want to add in options there for cleric and druid orisons.

[yougi]

Well it's flavorful and I don't see it unbalancing anything at all. Most characters will choose presdigation though (Read 90%) so you might want to ban that one from being chosen or accept that everyone has that one.

Why would they? Might sound stupid, but from my understanding, prestidigitation is "does anything as long as it doesn't matter", which, well, doesn't matter... I'd much rather have Cure Minor Wounds, instant stabilize!

Either way, it would be randomly decided.


I would think pick one cantrip to use as a SLA, with the caveat that as it's a particular knack for one type of spell, it needs to have only one function.

What do you mean by this? Is that against the aforementionned Prestidigitation? Apparently, there's really something I'm missing about this...


Another concern might be that getting the same feel as Elder Scolls magic in DND is that mages can cast all day, since they use a replenishing resource. I suspect your homebrew will have magic function closer to warlock than wiz/sorc.

Well, no, I'll simply get the "everyone can cast" part. Wiz/Sorcs will just be people who go further along this path, spells won't replenish within a given day.


Should be fine. Wouldn't be broken for them to be at will like in pathfinder, even.

You could also just give people the Magical Training feat (player's guide to faerun) as a bonus feat, though you'd probably want to add in options there for cleric and druid orisons.

I will include orisons also, and that is why I don't want to make them at will: Cure Minor Wounds at will makes healers non-important early on in the game. Plus, instant stabilize.

And regarding Magical Training, meh, never paid attention to that. I guess it wouldn't mess up the balance of it...

And what do you guys say about giving 1st level spells to 5th level characters, and 2nd level to 9th? Pretty much the same thing?

[Yuki Akuma]

Healers aren't important anyway. The best way to avoid getting hurt is to kill your enemies quickly.

Infinite free healing doesn't unbalance anything. Especially if it's only 1 hp per round.

[watchwood]

It's something worth thinking about. I've been considering giving everyone access to cantrips as though there were a member of the casting class of their choice (assuming they're not already part of a class that gets cantrips or better). It wouldn't affect casters in any way, and it'd get a small (but nice) little boost out to the other classes.

[some guy]

Why would they? Might sound stupid, but from my understanding, prestidigitation is "does anything as long as it doesn't matter", which, well, doesn't matter...

Well, that's not true, while prestidigitation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm) is limited in what it can and can't do, it's effect might still matter. You just need to get creative with it.

[legomaster00156]

Why would they? Might sound stupid, but from my understanding, prestidigitation is "does anything as long as it doesn't matter", which, well, doesn't matter... I'd much rather have Cure Minor Wounds, instant stabilize!
I would like the ability to spotlessly clean 1 square foot every 6 seconds. I would also like to flavor my food to whatever I want, or heat/chill it. And if I'm stuck alone somewhere, I think making a crude bowl to draw water with would be appreciated.

[Swooper]

If you are worried about Cure Minor Wounds giving free out of combat healing, just change it to the Pathfinder version (Stabilize), which can only stabilize a dying creature, not actually heal anything. The Inflict version (Bleed) causes a stable unconscious creature to start bleeding. Then you can give everyone cantrips/orisons at will without worrying about breaking anything.

[Coidzor]

I will include orisons also, and that is why I don't want to make them at will: Cure Minor Wounds at will makes healers non-important early on in the game. Plus, instant stabilize.

Instant stabilize isn't a bad thing. It's a standard action and they have to be adjacent. Really, it's only a good thing unless the DM is out to get notches on their PC killing post.

That, and low-level healing is a [redacted] and a half. Cure Minor Wounds is slow as hell anyway, so it's pretty much exactly the same as if the party had a wand of cure light wounds or lesser vigor (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710.0) which they used to heal between fights.


And regarding Magical Training, meh, never paid attention to that. I guess it wouldn't mess up the balance of it...

Well, then, might want to check it out then.


And what do you guys say about giving 1st level spells to 5th level characters, and 2nd level to 9th? Pretty much the same thing?

Something like that, depending on particular spells and frequency.

With regards to Prestidigitation, it can be useful in other capacities, such as ditch digging (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12844818&postcount=75)!

[ericgrau]

Well it's flavorful and I don't see it unbalancing anything at all. Most characters will choose presdigation though (Read 90%) so you might want to ban that one from being chosen or accept that everyone has that one.

For low level play I'd pick light. If we stuck with them to higher levels I'd pick detect magic for scouting since it pierces most doors. Prestidigitation is popular because it can seemingly do anything but it's hard to do much of anything useful besides cleaning up smelly adventurers a little.

[yougi]

Well thanks everyone for your answers, and for showing me that Prestidigitation is indeed helpful! ;)

[00dlez]

Another route you might take is building a half dozen spell trees that players can pick from, rather than allowing them to fullly cherry pick spells. This could be done by spell school or style, making it more a part of the characters affinities and personality versus what spell is best for each level.

I think allowing cherry picking will result in a lot of characters picking the same spells and lacking variety as most have stated before (Prestidigitation, Color Spray, Invisibility, Fly...). A tree could be balanced by the DM to some extent; if you want fly for your 3rd level spell you'd have to take Mage Hand, Jump, and Gust of Wind. Perhaps building them like a cleric domain with a fixed spells at each level.

Edit: Making these unlimited uses per day would necessitate banning any sort of healing spell. Given just a 5 minute break, Cure Light Wounds could generate 225 points of healing; enough to bring a 6th level party from the brink of death to full health.

[yougi]

I think allowing cherry picking will result in a lot of characters picking the same spells and lacking variety as most have stated before (Prestidigitation, Color Spray, Invisibility, Fly...). A tree could be balanced by the DM to some extent; if you want fly for your 3rd level spell you'd have to take Mage Hand, Jump, and Gust of Wind. Perhaps building them like a cleric domain with a fixed spells at each level.

Ooooooh, I like that... SHINY! Even better than random tables!


Edit: Making these unlimited uses per day would necessitate banning any sort of healing spell. Given just a 5 minute break, Cure Light Wounds could generate 225 points of healing; enough to bring a 6th level party from the brink of death to full health.

My point exactly. A party of 4 1st level fighters with 18 Con (so 14hp), with 4 of them at -9 and one at 1 hp (pretty disastrous) with each of them having even Cure Minor Wounds at will, would need less than 3 minutes and a half (1 minute to get the second one up to positive hp, 1 minute to get no 3-4 up to positive hp, 13 * 6 = 78 seconds to get them all up to max hp) to get to full hp. Basically, never runs out of power.

For the higher level spells at higher levels, I was thinking of:
{table=head]Char. Lv|Casts at|0|1|2|3|4|5|6
1-2|1/2|1|0|0|0|0|0|0
3-4|1|1|0|0|0|0|0|0
5-6|2|1|1|0|0|0|0|0
7-8|2|2|1|0|0|0|0|0
9-10|3|2|1|1|0|0|0|0
11-12|4|2|2|1|0|0|0|0
13|5|2|2|1|1|0|0|0
14-15|6|3|2|2|1|0|0|0
16|7|3|2|2|1|1|0|0
17|8|3|2|2|1|1|0|0
18|9|3|2|2|1|1|1|0
19|10|3|2|2|2|1|1|0
20|11|3|2|2|2|1|1|1[/table]

Representing, at each char level, the caster level for these, and the number of spells of each level they get, usable once a day each.

Edit: Oh yeah... So... Whaddya think?

[00dlez]

Using that table, you could pretty easily replace the # of spells at each level with the spell names and establish a half dozen "domain trees" based on their character's personality/archetype.

Going up to 6th level spells seemed a bit powerful to me, but do what you like. Even at 20th level campaigns, players can get a lot of mileage from an at will 6th level spell, careful which spells you give them access to.

[Heatwizard]

My point exactly. A party of 4 1st level fighters with 18 Con (so 14hp), with 4 of them at -9 and one at 1 hp (pretty disastrous) with each of them having even Cure Minor Wounds at will, would need less than 3 minutes and a half (1 minute to get the second one up to positive hp, 1 minute to get no 3-4 up to positive hp, 13 * 6 = 78 seconds to get them all up to max hp) to get to full hp. Basically, never runs out of power.

So what? Throw your party fighter a bone, he deserves it.

[00dlez]

So what? Throw your party fighter a bone, he deserves it.

That's more that a freebie bone, that makes any sort of party healer nearly irrelevant.

[Yuki Akuma]

Dedicated healers are already irrelevant.

Anyone can put points into Use Magic Device to use a Wand of Lesser Vigor. Healing Belts are cheap and can be used by anyone. There are even some classes who already have infinite healing powers.

Casting healing spells is a horrific waste of resources that should only be done in a dire emergency. You have much better things to do with your spell slots and actions. Like killing the enemy before he even deals enough damage to threaten you.

[Heatwizard]

That's more that a freebie bone, that makes any sort of party healer nearly irrelevant.

Clerics are full casters, they'll find something else to do.

e: Also, yeah, it's basically ye olde tricke where you have the entire party take Tomb-Tainted Soul and then the Dread Necromancer just sprays negative energy everywhere all day long, except you aren't charging a feat but you're only doing it one point at a time. It's not unbalancing, it's just nice for the frontliners.

[Coidzor]

My point exactly. A party of 4 1st level fighters with 18 Con (so 14hp), with 4 of them at -9 and one at 1 hp (pretty disastrous) with each of them having even Cure Minor Wounds at will, would need less than 3 minutes and a half (1 minute to get the second one up to positive hp, 1 minute to get no 3-4 up to positive hp, 13 * 6 = 78 seconds to get them all up to max hp) to get to full hp. Basically, never runs out of power.

Yes, the fighter can finally "go all day" while the spellcasters are limited by their limited spells per day. Unlike how it really is despite the people who keep insisting that it's already the case, where the party fighter is going to be hemorrhaging HP if the party casters are pouring through spells.



For the higher level spells at higher levels, I was thinking of:
{table=head]Char. Lv|Casts at|0|1|2|3|4|5|6
1-2|1/2|1|0|0|0|0|0|0
3-4|1|1|0|0|0|0|0|0
5-6|2|1|1|0|0|0|0|0
7-8|2|2|1|0|0|0|0|0
9-10|3|2|1|1|0|0|0|0
11-12|4|2|2|1|0|0|0|0
13|5|2|2|1|1|0|0|0
14-15|6|3|2|2|1|0|0|0
16|7|3|2|2|1|1|0|0
17|8|3|2|2|1|1|0|0
18|9|3|2|2|1|1|1|0
19|10|3|2|2|2|1|1|0
20|11|3|2|2|2|1|1|1[/table]
Getting a single 6th level spell at 20th level as the ceiling seems fine. On the whole 1/day spells that aren't SLAs that can be used to get around costs aren't going to break the game if you want it magic heavy, especially if you're allowing it from pre-selected lists or making them progress along a tree.

I'd say the CL could start off somewhere between 1/2 character level (minimum 1 otherwise things get weird) and progressing like 3/4 BAB and be reasonable. Actually, it'd probably take something potentially abusive to make Caster Level = Character Level.

Only potentially problematic thing I can think of would that since they're technically casting spells, even if they're not granted by a spellcasting class, would be what would happen if they qualified for and took a class that granted them a domain or took arcane disciple, but, again, those are also from pre-determined lists...

[ericgrau]

HP limits how long a fighter lasts in an encounter but not how many encounters he can fight. A wand of cure light wounds is cheap at a fairly low level. Past a certain level unlimited healing doesn't really imbalance anything for adventurers. Earlier it might, though the effect it has on the commoner world is far greater.

I'd say unlimited cure minor wounds would be imbalancing when you first get it, but not by the time you're 5th level or so. Well, unless you set up a healing business.

One thing though, if everyone gets 6th level spells, won't the bard feel lousy? You can only cast 1 spell per turn so he doesn't get much from it except a couple extra options. Though the easy answer would be to say "Don't play a bard, play a rogue".

[Coidzor]

One thing though, if everyone gets 6th level spells, won't the bard feel lousy? You can only cast 1 spell per turn so he doesn't get much from it except a couple extra options. Though the easy answer would be to say "Don't play a bard, play a rogue".

All the more incentive for Sublime Chords, and 1/day of a single 6th level spell at 20th level is still worse than what bards get normally. It's 1/4 of what they get 6th level spellwise, but still.

Also, inspire courage optimization is often reason enough to be at least significantly bardy. If anything, I imagine they'd become more friendly towards bard PrCs that don't progress casting or builds like Bardsaders or Bardblades or Bardbarians.

[yougi]

So, a bit late, but here is what I went for. There are 7 "birth signs", depending on the stars' placement at the moment of your birth. The 7 signs are named after animals for the shapes of the constellations that are associated with each of them. The 7 signs are the Cat, the Bear, the Dog, the Monkey, the Horse, the Bird and the Snake.

Cat
Some view birth under the sign of the Cat as a promise to a bright future as a merchant. However, the difficulties associated with life on the road makes most of the Catborns choose a more stable occupation.

0- Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Arcane Mark
1- Identify, Comprehend Language
2- Arcane Lock, Locate Object
3- Invisibility Purge, Sepia Snake Sigil
4- Tongues
5- Leomund's Secret Chest
6- Animate Object

Bear
Those born under the sign of the bear often become guards or soldiers. Most of them are also born with the wide shoulders and powerful arms associated with those trades.

0- Flare, Resistance, Cure Minor Wounds
1- Magic Weapon, True Strike
2- Resist Energy, Bear's Endurance
3- Vampiric Touch, Keen Edge
4- Fire Shield
5- Righteous Might
6- Stoneskin

Dog
Not unlike the animal the sign is named after, those born on a day of the Dog live to help others. Their gift is of minor use to them, but they exist simply to save lives.

0- Cure Minor Wounds, Resistance, Detect Poison
1- Sanctuary, Cure Light Wounds
2- Delay Poison, Lesser Restoration
3- Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease
4- Cure Serious Wounds
5- Raise Dead
6- Stone to Flesh

Monkey
Monkeys are very playful animals, who enjoy playing tricks on humanoids they encounter. This sign also represents this trickster attitude and this attraction for playful malice.

0- Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Lullaby
1- Disguise Self, Silent Image
2- Invisibility, Cat's Grace
3- Major Image, Glibness
4- Illusory Wall
5- Persistent Image
6- Programmed Image

Horse
The Horse is the sign under which most are born. For some mystical reason, more are born on these days than on any other. As such, and because of the powers bestowed by the constellation, Horseborns are the backbone of any economy or society.

0- Create Water, Light, Mending
1- Unseen Servant, Calm Animals
2- Bull's Strength, Make Whole
3- Plant Growth, Daylight
4- Repel Vermin
5- Commune with Nature
6- Move Earth

Snake
Those whose birth powers are offensive are called Snakeborns. While their powers are often deadly, many learn not to use them. However, some use these powers to oppress those born other stars.

0- Acid Splash, Flare, Ray of Frost
1- Magic Missile, Burning Hand
2- Gust of Wind, Melf's Acid Arrow
3- Fireball, Lightning Bolt
4- Shout
5- Flame Strike
6- Chain Lightning

Bird
As free as a bird are those born under the sign of the same name. Birdborns often leave organized society to live as a nomad, going wherever the wind will lead them.

0- Know Direction, Light, Mage Hand
1- Jump, Feather Fall
2- Darkvision, Spiderclimb
3- Fly, Create Food and Water
4- Leomund's Secure Shelter
5- Teleport
6- Transport via Plant

Which brings 3 questions:
1- Does that sound balanced?
2- What about the names/themes?
3- Longer question: I was thinking of making these Cha-based. However, that would mean that characters with less than 10 Charisma wouldn't be able to use their basic ones, and that every lv20 character would need 16 Cha... I like the idea of giving Charisma a use, but still... What do you guys think?

[Socratov]

While I don't know if the spells themselves are balanced (i have not yet played enough casters for that) I think this application for cha is indeed good. I do think the theme is nice, though if you really want to make it a theme, think more along the lines of what you did with the bear sign: the constellation you're born under shapes your physique somewhat. It could be used as some kind of bloodline like in UA, or you could make it part of certain classes (as in, the sign requires you to take at least 1 level in a certain class or certain classes to manifest)

[Heatwizard]

I was thinking of making these Cha-based. However, that would mean that characters with less than 10 Charisma wouldn't be able to use their basic ones, and that every lv20 character would need 16 Cha... I like the idea of giving Charisma a use, but still... What do you guys think?

Means Bards will have less competition for sixth-level spells. As time goes on, the party can patch low Cha scores with magic items; early on, that won't be an option, but that's the price you pay for dumping. You could also consider offering a feat to switch stats.