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Jenn
2012-03-05, 10:35 PM
First things first, long time lurker, first time poster. Hello.

Second, I need some help or advice. The party I'm GMing for is soon to be going up against the minions of the BBEG (not quite a million of them, but I enjoy alliteration) in a doubly lopsided battle. It will be the party of 4 or 5 against hundreds, or if I can pull it off, thousands of fanatical mooks. Who have absolutely no combat experience to speak of. And no tactics other than 'charge and get shredded'. I'm envisioning something that will straddle the line between 'ridiculously awesome' and 'awesomely ridiculous'.

The problem is, I can't seem to figure out how to pull it off. The party is a mix of casters and mundane, in the 4-5 level range (which is high in this campaign world) who should all be able to contribute. I imagine that the only threat these mooks will offer would be massively ganging up on a party member- and therefore they'll want to keep moving, which is good, because there will plenty of terrain to use in this fight- from Donkey Kong style barrels down a stairwell to dropping chandeliers. I will reward creativity. But what I can't seem to get a handle on is how to let them use their personally skills, spells and weapons to cut through swathes of these guys in a consistent manner- I don't want to worry about running out of spells or only being able to attack a single target after taking a move action.

The system is Pathfinder, but that really shouldn't matter. If anyone has any ideas or inspirations, please let me know!

Grinner
2012-03-05, 11:10 PM
Well, for spellcasters, you could supply them with a few wands.

One thing I'd worry about is the battle becoming tedious. Sure, the prospect of singlehandedly taking down an entire army is fun. In practice, it can become quite dull. I'd recommend outlining a plot to nudge the players along.

You've also got to consider that non-martial low level characters will pose almost no risk to the players. Consider giving them the benefit of a few feats, like Weapon Focus.

Edit: One more thing, use some form of enemy variety. Maybe spellcasting officers and ranged support?

Jenn
2012-03-05, 11:23 PM
This will be interspersed with plot, not a session-long brawl by any means. And the party is outfitted with wands, scrolls, etc etc.

I guess what I'm looking to do is modify combat so as to turn it from:

Player One: I just my wand of acid splash.
GM: Hit! Mook 435 dies. Player two, you're up.
Two: I swing my axe at Mook 599.
GM: You cut him two easily. Alright, time for Mook 162...

into:

Player One: I just my wand of acid splash.
GM: Alright, your point your wand and the ball of acid bowls over at least a dozen mooks, dissolving them before your eyes. Player two?
Two: I'd like to start clearing a path to that staircase.
GM: Alright, you feel like you're back working the fields, as your axe scythes through body after body. However, as you advance, you're quickly surrounded as more take their places.

Obviously, with some descriptors, the first example would be a lot more fun, but what I'm trying to convey is finding a mechanic to turn this from a single, occasionally dual target fight to having a way of determining how much destruction a certain dice roll brings.

erikun
2012-03-05, 11:23 PM
I did this with kobolds, once, and found a roughly 3rd-4th level party could cut through around 64 kobolds before getting worn down. I would really, really worry about your PCs, because unless they are really optimized and/or coordinated, they may have difficulty if they aren't around 10th level or so.

You might consider throwing waves of 20 or so at them at a time, or seperate them into rooms, rather than having the whole mass gang-rush them at once. I would keep things more interesting, with different terrain and strategies in each room. It would be fun to see what the players insist on dragging with them from room to room. :smalltongue:

Jenn
2012-03-05, 11:25 PM
I did this with kobolds, once, and found a roughly 3rd-4th level party could cut through around 64 kobolds before getting worn down. I would really, really worry about your PCs, because unless they are really optimized and/or coordinated, they may have difficulty if they aren't around 10th level or so.

You might consider throwing waves of 20 or so at them at a time, or seperate them into rooms, rather than having the whole mass gang-rush them at once. I would keep things more interesting, with different terrain and strategies in each room. It would be fun to see what the players insist on dragging with them from room to room. :smalltongue:

This is more what I'm thinking- did you have any specific rules you needed or situations I should watch out for?

Grinner
2012-03-05, 11:32 PM
If I may ask, what are the premises of this session?

Like,

What's the setting? Dungeon? Blasted castle ruins? The Ninth Circle of Hell?
What exact sort of enemies do you have in mind?
You mentioned that you do have a plot. Will you give some specifics?

Jenn
2012-03-05, 11:47 PM
If I may ask, what are the premises of this session?

Like,

What's the setting? Dungeon? Blasted castle ruins? The Ninth Circle of Hell?
What exact sort of enemies do you have in mind?
You mentioned that you do have a plot. Will you give some specifics?


Bullet points! How exciting! One day, I'll figure out how to make those myself. But until then, I'll survive on paragraph breaks.

The setting is the interior (and exterior and surrounds, if they roam far enough) of a ruined, overgrown stone temple. Think Mesoamerican, for the most part.

The mooks will be small or tiny sized creatures of some manner. I intend to nerf their ACs to single digits, just because I don't want hitting them to be the challenge.

And yes I will! However, I will leave my specifics pretty general, as the walls might have eyes. In a nutshell, the party is going to be interupting a ritual. Spectacularly. Their goal, so far as they know, is to retrieve the Macguffin and get out of the temple in a mundane fashion. As in, they don't have access to flight, teleportation, etc, so they'll be hoofing it.

Assets:
- A large number of the mooks aren't interested in fighting and must be convinced by mook 'taskmasters'. With whips and threats.
- The mooks aren't aware that the party is coming.
- There are no hostiles other than mooks on the premise.
- A Holocaust cloak and a wheelbarrow.

Challenges:
- Numbers. 100 to 1 is the minimum goal I have set for myself.
- The alarm. Once the ritual is borked, I can hear the klaxons going off and mooks running everywhere, screaming.
- Transportation. Walking (and the distance they'll be traveling) limits the amount of backup they have access to.

There might be more, but thats the gist of my notes.

erikun
2012-03-05, 11:58 PM
This is more what I'm thinking- did you have any specific rules you needed or situations I should watch out for?
No, not really.

I did make sure to throw the kobolds at them in waves (8-10 each round, rather than all at once) and kept all the kobolds at the same initiative. I was actually planning on throwing 96 kobolds at them, but ultimately cut back when I saw characters dropping.

It ended up being exciting and pretty dramatic for the players - they were actually on the ropes part of the time, and at least one party member was knocked down - but it isn't something that I'd care to do all the time.

Grinner
2012-03-06, 12:15 AM
My first thoughts are that you've simultaneously put the PCs at an advantage and a disadvantage.

If I'm reading your notes correctly, I see that the PC's are on the offensive and intend to disrupt the BBEG's ritual. In military strategy, well-entrenched defenders always have an edge over the opposition. However, you've also given your players the element of surprise, so how this turns out is entirely dependent upon the PCs grasp of stealth, traps, and trickery. Or failing that, your benevolence.

It also occurs to me that you could pile a few of the tiny-sized mooks into a small swarm, just for little variety. But do so only when appropriate, like at chokepoints.

WitchSlayer
2012-03-06, 01:25 AM
I know if I was going to run it I'd give the PCs time to find an advantageous position and maybe set up traps and the like and send them in waves, possibly houserule in some sort of morale rules. If I were to do it in 4E I would toss in mostly minions with a couple of soldiers and a leader with each wave. I imagine you could do something similar with Pathfinder.

Edit: Alternately, make like 5ish massive swarms, and each time you do a solid amount of damage you chop through a few of the guys.

Bagelson
2012-03-06, 03:57 AM
Many systems treat large groups of mooks as a single unit. Draw up some guidelines to stats for a group of a certain size (5, 10, 20 mooks etc) and then treat the group as a single opponent (maybe give it the ability to attack everyone at once). Don't bother counting HP of individual mooks or even of the groups, just set a damage threshold; say that every 5 damage a player deals kills one mook. Once the swarm has lost enough members its stats go down a tier.

For higher pressure battles, state that mooks are streaming into the room at a certain rate per turn. The players gotta keep killing or the swarm will become more dangerous.

Everything else is down to fluff, really.

Talesin
2012-03-06, 06:36 AM
I believe the campaign book for the shackled city has rules for handling large crowds. The whole crowd is given a stat block, rather than having each individual mook participating in the fight and damage done to the crowd diminishes its size once its pushed over a certain limit.

I'd maybe try and run the game a few rounds at a time rather than 1 by 1. So say take it every 5 rounds and let them act for 30s of time rather every 6s. This will allow them to roll all their dice at once and set a general course for their actions rather than doing it round by round.

So player 1 could "I'm going to fight my way to the stairs" and then roll the dice. If he rolls well then he moves further than expected, if not then not as far. I would also let them maybe cut down more than 1 per round. Say at the start of the session that you'll allow them to try some of the more crazy ideas (just in this combat because its crazy mook numbers and normal combat doesn't always work in a 100 to 1 situation), say have the axe user just swing his axe in a large circle and allow him to cut down more mooks than he would normally.

But then i'm quite lenient when it comes to bending the rules for fun.

DigoDragon
2012-03-06, 09:13 AM
You might consider throwing waves of 20 or so at them at a time, or seperate them into rooms, rather than having the whole mass gang-rush them at once. I would keep things more interesting, with different terrain and strategies in each room.

I agree. In my personal experience, gangs of around 15-20 low level mooks (that can be taken down in 1-2 hits) seem to work out best in conjunction with interesting terrain/room objects. Also, grouping them in units of 5-6 and giving them their own initiative count helps spread out the attacks over the entire round.

Last time I did this, I used small pieces of wrapped candy as the tokens for the mooks on the battle map, numbering them for ease of identification. This had the additional benefit of the players eating the candy of the mooks they fell. :smallsmile:

Lapak
2012-03-06, 09:17 AM
Make sure that you give the party clear opportunities to complete sub-goals along the way: reaching a chokepoint, triggering a deadfall that blocks off an avenue of approach, that kind of thing. If it's just 'get the MacGuffin' and 'Get Out', you run the risk of the encounter turning into this (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1098) no matter how colorful your combat descriptions may be.

Jenn
2012-03-06, 09:32 AM
...It ended up being exciting and pretty dramatic for the players - they were actually on the ropes part of the time, and at least one party member was knocked down - but it isn't something that I'd care to do all the time.

This is what I'm aiming for. I doubt it will be the most challenging thing they've ever faced as a group, but I'd like this to be one of the fights they talk about when looking back on this campaign.


If I'm reading your notes correctly, I see that the PC's are on the offensive and intend to disrupt the BBEG's ritual. In military strategy, well-entrenched defenders always have an edge over the opposition. However, you've also given your players the element of surprise, so how this turns out is entirely dependent upon the PCs grasp of stealth, traps, and trickery. Or failing that, your benevolence.

You are correct, for the most part. I don't think the enemy would be that entrenched, as stopping the ritual starts to bring the house down. For real. So yes, they're contending with some trained guards who are opposing them and will be more difficult, but the majority of them are going to be running around in panic.

And my players aren't the best tacticians around (nor are their characters), but they are really resourceful and once they figure out what their advantages are and how to press them, I'm sure they'll start to mop up.


It also occurs to me that you could pile a few of the tiny-sized mooks into a small swarm, just for little variety. But do so only when appropriate, like at chokepoints.

I like the idea, but as later posters have suggested, I'm gonna take it a bit further and apply that to most of the encounters, as it lets me simulate the mass mechanics a bit better.


I know if I was going to run it I'd give the PCs time to find an advantageous position and maybe set up traps and the like and send them in waves, possibly houserule in some sort of morale rules. If I were to do it in 4E I would toss in mostly minions with a couple of soldiers and a leader with each wave. I imagine you could do something similar with Pathfinder.

I'm gonna go with the waves idea, it isn't going to be a constant stream, but the players have a goal and get in/get out will be emphasized by the impending collapse of the structure.


Many systems treat large groups of mooks as a single unit. Draw up some guidelines to stats for a group of a certain size (5, 10, 20 mooks etc) and then treat the group as a single opponent (maybe give it the ability to attack everyone at once). Don't bother counting HP of individual mooks or even of the groups, just set a damage threshold; say that every 5 damage a player deals kills one mook. Once the swarm has lost enough members its stats go down a tier.


I believe the campaign book for the shackled city has rules for handling large crowds. The whole crowd is given a stat block, rather than having each individual mook participating in the fight and damage done to the crowd diminishes its size once its pushed over a certain limit.

This, I think, is the solution I am looking for. It lets me control groups of them, lets the players attack groups at a time, and the less they are, the lower the threat they pose. Of course, groups might be able to combine and reinforce one another if the players start just cutting them down to size and leaving instead of finishing the job....


I'd maybe try and run the game a few rounds at a time rather than 1 by 1. So say take it every 5 rounds and let them act for 30s of time rather every 6s. This will allow them to roll all their dice at once and set a general course for their actions rather than doing it round by round.

So player 1 could "I'm going to fight my way to the stairs" and then roll the dice. If he rolls well then he moves further than expected, if not then not as far. I would also let them maybe cut down more than 1 per round. Say at the start of the session that you'll allow them to try some of the more crazy ideas (just in this combat because its crazy mook numbers and normal combat doesn't always work in a 100 to 1 situation), say have the axe user just swing his axe in a large circle and allow him to cut down more mooks than he would normally.

But then i'm quite lenient when it comes to bending the rules for fun.

Absolutely. This sounds like the second part of the answer to my problem- it will also let me have players able to set up and execute mini-plans in combat by themselves instead of it taking three characters to execute the same goal. *Goes and packs a bunch of extra d20s*

That's given me another idea- not resetting initiative for each combat- once combat ends, initiative pauses, and picks up where it leaves off next time- allowing for everyone to potentially get a shot at the mooks where there is a full room. And if the mooks always go last, they can stream in and reinforce (and attack) if the players didn't finish them off on their turn.

Thanks so much so far, gang! Of course, if there are any other ideas, feel free to share them, I have a bit of time still before this session happens.

Jenn
2012-03-06, 09:38 AM
Forgive me! Double post!


I agree. In my personal experience, gangs of around 15-20 low level mooks (that can be taken down in 1-2 hits) seem to work out best in conjunction with interesting terrain/room objects. Also, grouping them in units of 5-6 and giving them their own initiative count helps spread out the attacks over the entire round.

Yeah, I'm going to have to test this out and decide where I want the mook's initiative to be.


Last time I did this, I used small pieces of wrapped candy as the tokens for the mooks on the battle map, numbering them for ease of identification. This had the additional benefit of the players eating the candy of the mooks they fell. :smallsmile:

That is a very good idea.


Make sure that you give the party clear opportunities to complete sub-goals along the way: reaching a chokepoint, triggering a deadfall that blocks off an avenue of approach, that kind of thing. If it's just 'get the MacGuffin' and 'Get Out', you run the risk of the encounter turning into this (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1098) no matter how colorful your combat descriptions may be.

A good point! I will be sure to include a few rewards along the way, along with some places to 'rest' after completing legs of the trip. Of course, dropping the ceiling in behind you doesn't make for a good path back out... :smalltongue:

nedz
2012-03-06, 03:59 PM
I've run lots of horde type encounters, though getting the balance right is tricky. If you make them too easy then it gets dull fairly quickly, if you make them too hard then its a TPK.

You could do things like have 1-6 (or 2-8) turn up every round, until that is the PCs work out to close the door:smallbiggrin:
You should run them all on one initiative.
The PCs should not know when they waves of mooks are going to stop.
You could have them over-run the party. i.e. they make a full move action and then attack. They will give away lots of AoO, until even the PCs with Combat Reflexes run out. They will also benefit from flank bonuses. In the next round they should move onward and attack, after all they don't get multiple attacks a round. Another wave will take their place. This will cause the casters to get a little concerned.
Adding Bards will really up the stakes. They need only be level 1. They should hang around away from the melle. This gives the party a problem to resolve - kill the bagpiper

Swooper
2012-03-06, 05:42 PM
Is this D&D 3.5? Because if so:

The DMG2 has rules for the Mob template.
This is in the wrong forum.

Thalnawr
2012-03-06, 06:14 PM
Assets:
- A large number of the mooks aren't interested in fighting and must be convinced by mook 'taskmasters'. With whips and threats.
- The mooks aren't aware that the party is coming.
- There are no hostiles other than mooks on the premise.
- A Holocaust cloak and a wheelbarrow.

Is there any way they can use the bolded assets to scare off the mooks by pretending they are the Dwead Piwate Woberts?

Jenn
2012-03-06, 07:05 PM
Is there any way they can use the bolded assets to scare off the mooks by pretending they are the Dwead Piwate Woberts?

Those aren't actual assets, but if they were, yes. Yes they could.


Is this D&D 3.5? Because if so:

The DMG2 has rules for the Mob template.
This is in the wrong forum.


No, it is not. Even if it was, I'm not really looking for an answer specific to my platform. This is a question that can be answered broadly or specificly, if need be.

Lysander
2012-03-06, 08:21 PM
One thing you can do, to keep it from getting boring, is to break the battle up into a series of mini-goals.

For example, upon entering a room a group of mooks start loading a giant ballista. The party now has the mini-goal of cutting through the ballista's 20 guards before they can load it and send a powerful bolt towards the party.

If they fail, well, maybe they get hit by the bolt and take a bit of damage. Maybe it misses them. Either way it's not the end of the game if the party succeeds or fails. But if they have a series of mini-goals to work towards during the fight it'll be more interesting that "Ok, you kill mook #487. Now mook #488 attacks....you kill him too. Now #489...."

Incom
2012-03-06, 10:40 PM
Have fun storming the castle!

Possibly let them take out some mooks quietly on their way to interrupting the ritual. Works especially well if it's something that doesn't leave a corpse. Of course, once they make it to the bottom, you can have your giant fight scene. (Maybe even give them the option of quietly assassinating taskmasters and thus gaining the support of some of the mooks?) Also, consider setting a hard time limit on the length of the ritual, to give a sense of urgency. If they fail, maybe it unleashes a powerful fiend of some sort (something they can't take on their own and will have to flee from) which could set up another quest on how to contain and eventually defeat it. If you've played Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story, think Dark Star.

If the Macguffin is a powerful weapon of some sort (say, a plus-whatever Sword of Killing Evil Stuff that their ritual will corrupt), consider having a high-powered fiend wandering the premises as a guard-captain; the party must avoid it until they get the sword, at which point the party has a decent shot of taking it down with the new shiny weapon. Of course, there are still tons of mooks hanging around, but that's what the stealth bit was for!

Just some random stuff.