[Pathfinder] Building a Magus/Sorc

[TheGimp]

Hi guys,

Fírst off, I'm new to both these forums and d20 in general, so please be gentle with me. :smallsmile:

Second, I'm starting in a new campaign at level 5, and the Magus has quite cought my fancy. However, I'm annoyed at the fact, that there aren't any archetypes or variants that let me cast spells like the sorcerer does (meaning, spontaneously). Then I stumbled on a sorcerer achetype/bloodline-thingy called Sage. This allows a sorcerer to cast spells based on Int, which is one of my character's better stats.
So, I started thinking "Why not multiclass magus and sorcerer? That can't be too bad, can it?".

I've rolled a tiefling with rather good stats. With racial modifiers he has:

Str: 12
Dex: 19
Con: 15
Int: 19
Wis: 11
Cha: 6

As you can see, I'm planning on going with a dervish dance-build for the magus half of my character, as the setting we're playing in doesn't have a lot of metal or heavy armor.

Now, I've read a bit about multiclassing in pathfinder, and I do understand that it's not generally the best way to do things, but unless my gm lets me alter the magus to allow spontaneous casting, I'm gonna want levels in sorcerer as well.

What I'd like, is suggestions as to how to build this char for the first 5 levels to start with, and possibly up to level 10-ish.

And remember: Be gentle, and remember I don't know all the standard abbreviations and whatnot.

Thanks


Edit: I'm planning on taking 5 levels of magus up front, then one level of sorcerer, and then another of magus, so I can get the Broad study arcana.
Also, I'm seriously considering the Bladebound archetype for flavour and a "free" magic sword.

[Fens]

I'm playing a Magus in our current campaign & I can say that you really don't need to worry about the sponaneous casting, just memorize a different spell in each spot & use spell recall to recast at will. Instant quasi-sponaneous casting :)

I've played this character from level 5 to our current lvl 11, it's only become more insane as the campaign has progressed. There is certainly no need to multi into a Sorc, & I believe you'll only make your character weaker for it. That said its your character to make so go for whatever seems best for you.

A useful magus guide to lookup would be Walters Guide to the Magus, sry I don't have the link on hand.

Happy building :)

[TheGimp]

Thanks for the speedy reply. :smallsmile:

I had considered that, but don't you, especially at lower levels before Improved Spell Recall, run out of arcane pool... points... whatever it's called, pretty quickly?

[Corlindale]

Multiclassing Magus and Sorceror is pretty much a bad idea, you'll become drastically weaker if you do that. The most Sorceror you want is perhaps 1 level of cross-blooded to pick up some good bloodline arcanas.

As Fens said, you already get to be a semi-spontaneous caster with spell recall. Yes, at lower lvls you'll run out of points - but every caster runs out of spells at lower level, that's just a fact of life in PF.

If you want to add more spontaneous power to your Magus, consider feats like Preferred Spell or Greater Spell Specialization. Either of which will allow you to xsacrifice any slot of the same level to cast your favourite spell spontaneously, with metamagic if necessary. Shocking Grasp seems to be the favourite spell of pretty much every Magus out there, so if you pick that for your preferred spell you can then use your actual slots to prepare more situational/utility spells, knowing that you can always convert them into (intensified) shocking grasp spells.

[Keneth]

I'm gonna have to agree here, spell recall should cover you well enough in most cases until you get to improved spell recall. Later on you should consider Preferred Spell so you don't run out of shocking grasps or whatever your spell of choice may be. If push comes to shove you can also stock up on Pearls of Power, depending on the number of battles you do in a day and the number of enemies you encounter (plus they're dirt cheap if anyone can craft them for you).

Sorcerer is really only worth it as a one level dip to get orc or blue dragon bloodline (or both with crossbloded if you can justify it). Otherwise magus 20 is the way to go.

[Fens]

Corlindale & Kenith covered what I'd missed. Quite frankly my character is the last to run out of casting resources unless I've gone balls to the wall crazy wasting high level spells on mooks. If Arcane Pool levels are a concern you can grab the Extra Arcane Pool feat for a +2 to your AP, & you can take it as many times as you want. I've only taken it once & had no problems, more often than not the Druid & Oracle give me dirty looks as they've run out of spells per day & I'm wanting to keep going :)

Oh, & definitely take Toughness, the extra HP can be a lifesaver for a frontline caster. Also acts as a nice idiocy buffer for the occasions where the power of the class carries makes you take leave of your senses.

Magus are insanely good at what they do, and pretty damn versatile with the right spell selection to support it. Haste, fly, fireball... All lvl 3 spells for the Magus :)

[TheGimp]

Message recieved: Don't multiclass, except just to take a single level of something.

Following Walter's guide, I've chosen/plan on taking the following feats:
Weapon finesse
Dervish Dance
Toughness
Weapon Focus - Scimitar
Improved initiative

I'm also considering Arcane strike. Seems like a nice, cheap and easy boost to damage and chance to hit.
I haven't gotten much further than that, feat-wise.

Now, regarding arcana: I'm having a hard time deciding what to take. I mean, various guides and whatnot recommend taking arcane accuracy for a dex-based magus, but I really don't see it as being that useful, especially considering how low on resources I'm gonna be for the first... Many levels. I'm mainly considering taking enduring arcana, followed by greater enduring arcana, as 1 minute duration on my buffs seems kinda low. But that depends on how long combat lasts in Pathfinder, which I don't know, being a rookie and all.
Any advice? I mean, apart from what Walter's guide already says?

[Keneth]

Feats you might want to consider:

arcane strike - extra damage when you can afford a swift action
improved familiar - if you're gonna take the familiar arcana
intensified spell - obligatory for increased damage
lunge - mitigates the need to cast defensively or take a 5-foot step
heighten spell - prerequisite, more or less useless otherwise
preferred spell - you want this, as mentioned before
spell perfection - a free maximize or quicken to your spell of choice is a must
maximize spell - after a while, rolling all that dice is just pointless
quicken spell - free attack and a bunch of damage


Arcanas:

arcane accuracy - I don't imagine you'll be using it much but sometimes you need to hit
accurate strike - like above but only for when you absolutely can't afford to miss (like when the next spell could effectively end the final battle)
familiar - you're already making good use of action economy but having a familiar by your side to use that wand of shield or some other item can turn the tide of a battle
bane blade - because bane is awesome


That's just what I can think of off the top of my head. Read the accompanying thread (http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz40tc?UM-Walters-Guide-to-the-Magus) to Walter's Guide for more info. There's been a lot of debating about different aspects of the magi.

[TheGimp]

Thanks for the input. Is it worthwhile to take arcana that increase the duration of your buffs?

Also, no familiar as I think I'm gonna take the bladebound-archetype.

[Keneth]

Most battles don't last past 1 minute, so your 1 minute buffs should be enough except in rare instances (or if your party's damage output is really bad). Defensive arcanas are also a waste most of the time. Whenever you're out of ideas for an arcana, you should strongly consider spell blending to get more utility spells from the wizard spell list.

I'm not too fond of the bladebound archetype though I hear that a bladebound kensai can be very decent combatant. I've also seen some nice rod-based magi with rod arcanas.

[Corlindale]

Is it worthwhile to take arcana that increase the duration of your buffs?

First- note that that Arcana is from a third-party publisher, so make sure your GM allows that. It's not part of the standard PF rules.

And I probably wouldn't take it. Most combats last less than a minute, so the primary use would be to possibly preserve the bonus until next combat, but that will not always be possible. Upgraded to 10 min./level it would be likely to last an entire dungeon crawl, though, and I guess that might be worthwhile - but that's at the cost of 2 Arcanas, and at higher levels it probably won't be a big issue to spend a pool point and a swift action at the start of combat.

And as said previously, don't worry too much about the low-on-resources thing. All casters are low on resources at low lvls - as a Magus you at least get to swing a weapon competently even if you run out of spells, unlike the wizard and sorceror. I suppose you could get the Wand Wielder Arcana if you're very concerned about running out of spells (and can afford a decent wand).

[Keneth]

Enduring Blade is actually UC but the others are 3rd party, yes.

[TheGimp]

Wand wielder might be the way to go, but i'm not quite sure how magic item-heavy the custom setting we'll be playing is.
So... Duration is out. Back to the salt mines. :smallsmile:

Thanks for all the input, guys. Already I'm feeling very welcome! :smallbiggrin:

[TheGimp]

New-ish thought: Taking 1 level of wizard for the Admixture school would allow me to change the energy type of my spells 7 times/day, and increase the damage of all my evocation spells by 1.

Worth it?

[Keneth]

No, the +1 damage is useless and you can change the energy type of your shocking grasp with a lesser metamagic rod (elemental).

[Fens]

The biggest problem with dipping for a Magis is the 2/3 spell progression, you really don't want to delay access to your level 3 spells (7th charcter level w/out dipping) if you don't have to. They really are where the magus comes online as a viable caster base, more so than just a guy/gal who hits really freakn hard. Any dipping you may do should be done in light of this.

Not to mention many of the class features are that good that unless there is very specific reason to dip you're usuall better off not to. Personally the only time I'd consider it worthwhile would be in a trap heavy game that you have no dedicated trapmonkey in your group, and even then I'd only go 2 levels of rogue max, more likely just the one.

If you are set on multiclassing make sure you look at the longer game in terms of build, depending on the campaign that'd be 7th, 13th & (more unlikely) 20th levels. The sweet spot for a Magus is in the 7th-13th bracket, with intensified shocking grasps, haste & fly you can really shine.

[Corlindale]

New-ish thought: Taking 1 level of wizard for the Admixture school would allow me to change the energy type of my spells 7 times/day, and increase the damage of all my evocation spells by 1.

Worth it?

Probably not worth it. I generally don't like to dip with caster characters, consider carefully how all your nice spells and class features will suddenly be one level further away.
Better to take Elemental Spell (Acid may be your best bet in general) for that (I'm not sure a rod will work, since you'll generally be using shocking grasp with spell combat/spellstrike, and thus won't have a hand to spare for using it).
If you do get Preferred Spell or Greater Spell Specialization for Shocking Grasp you get to apply Elemental Spell spontaneously - that should cover you well against even huge numbers of lightning-resistant foes.

Or, just make sure you have some other good spells at hand with other damage types - it's not like Magus is restricted to only using Shocking Grasp, he has an ample supply of spells of all elements.

[TheGimp]

All in all, I'm getting the impression that dipping is a bad idea. I'm perceptive like that. :smallsmile:

Thanks a bunch, guys. I'll try to cut back on the stupid questions.

[TheGimp]

Hi guys, yet another stupid question:

I've been reading the forum posts at paizo.com related to Walter's magus guide, and I've seen frequent references to the scimitar's crit range being 15-20.
Now, I know that using, for example, keen on your scimitar doubles it's normal range from 18-20, to 16-20. But where does that one extra come from? Meaning, how does the crit range go from 16-20, to 15-20?

[Wagadodo]

When you use Keen or Improved Critical it Doubles the number rolls you can get for a critical. So a longsword is 19-20 normally, so you to you need to more die rolls to equal that so it becomes 17-20. You add 17 & 18. For the Scimatar with the normal crit range being 18-20 that is three different rolls or results, to double that you need, then to add 15, 16, and 17 to get the double the chance of critical.

[Keneth]

All in all, I'm getting the impression that dipping is a bad idea. I'm perceptive like that. :smallsmile:

Thanks a bunch, guys. I'll try to cut back on the stupid questions.
There are no bad ideas, though the results may sometimes be less than satisfactory. If you feel that something would be fun to play, then play it. Playing a fun character is always better than playing on who is simply efficient. We're just here to evaluate your choices from a purely mechanical standpoint. :smallsmile:

[TheGimp]

When you use Keen or Improved Critical it Doubles the number rolls you can get for a critical. So a longsword is 19-20 normally, so you to you need to more die rolls to equal that so it becomes 17-20. You add 17 & 18. For the Scimatar with the normal crit range being 18-20 that is three different rolls or results, to double that you need, then to add 15, 16, and 17 to get the double the chance of critical.

Oh... How stupid of me! I hadn't figured in the 20. Thanks for clearing that up! And that's the commonly held interpretation of the rules? Seems really powerful to me! I mean, I'll be critting like 25% of the time.

Keneth: Being new to Pathfinder and d20 in general, I'll be having a hard enough time surviving even with an optimal build, and even though challenge is always fun, I prefer to ease into stuff. Maybe later I'll consider a dip or two. But to start with, I'll just want something I can have fun with, without screwing myself over, mechanically. :smallsmile:

[Keneth]

Actually, you'll be rolling a critical threat 30% of the time (15-20 = 6 numbers out of 20, therefore 30%), whether or not the roll will be a critical hit (or a hit at all) is another matter. But in the end this just means you'll be able to dish out a lot of focused damage which is nice but the magus can do so much more than just hit hard. :smallsmile:

[Wagadodo]

The magus has a lot of defensive ablities to use before help prevent being hit, and with the action economy that the Magus gets it does not hurt to cast a defensive spell while in combat, and make an attack. So you can cast that first level Vanish spell, the second level mirror image spell. There is a lot of Utility to the Magus that is present, so just don't think pure damage think a little bit defensive since you won't have the hitpoints of a fighter.

Have fun, it is a very interesting class to play.

[TheGimp]

I'm so very much looking forward to playing this char.

Thanks for the help, and the patience with my stupid questions.