Psychic Weapon Master, your thoughts?

[danzibr]

I was reading up on various PsyWar builds and happened upon the Psyshic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d). I think it seems really cool, but I'd never heard of it until about half an hour ago.

What do you all think? Is it too bad to consider? Losing the ML really hurts but... well, maybe there is no but. I think it's neat, like a casting Kensai with better BAB.

EDIT: Not only is the bonded weapon appealing, but they can do interesting thing with the bonus feats. For example, "Improved Critical: The psychic weapon master gains the Improved Critical feat for free. If she already possesses this feat, add an additional +2 to her weapon of choice's threat range for critical hits."

[Psyren]

If you want the Kensai archetype, losing 5 ML is better than losing 10... But Soulbound Weapon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) largely invalidates PWM, providing many of the same benefits for zero, count it, zero ML loss.

[danzibr]

If you want the Kensai archetype, losing 5 ML is better than losing 10... But Soulbound Weapon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) largely invalidates PWM, providing many of the same benefits for zero, count it, zero ML loss.
Hmm yeah, I was aware of that ACF. Actually, I thought it was very cool too. Maybe I'm just partial to the bonded weapon type idea.

[Psyren]

The other major problem are the feats. The only good one is Power Attack, the rest are so much chaff.

One nice advantage of the bonded weapon is that it functions as a second Psicrystal. This helps one of your turkey feats (Psionic Weapon) - three foci make it easier to apply the bonus to a full-attack routine. The problem is, you'll be so feat starved by the time you qualify for this class that you may not even have a normal psicrystal, never mind Psionic Meditation or Psicrystal Containment. And that further leaves little room for Expanded Knowledge, Stand Still, Imp. Trip and the other things Psywars will want to have.

And after sucking up your feats, it noms on your cash and XP too.

I'd say it's a step down - at least -1, possibly more. You can make it work but I don't think it's worthwhile to do so.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Human, Psychic Warrior 8/ Psychic Weapon Master 10, 2 flaws
1. Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility, Psionic Weapon, Psionic Dodge
2. Weapon Focus
3. Linked Power
5. Psionic Meditation
6. Spring Attack or Leap Attack
8. Deep Impact
9. Combat Reflexes
12. Improved Critical
15. Practiced Manifester
18. (Leap Attack)

Use a Falchion, you can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order: 18-20/x2 with a +2 bonus to the crit range becomes 16-20/x2; apply Improved Critical to double the crit range and it becomes 11-20/x2.

Power Attack for full, Spring Attack in, use Deep Impact to deliver your attack as a touch attack, Spring Attack away. Manifest Hustle to gain a move action, and spend it to regain your psionic focus. Repeat that every round until you run out of pp. You could instead just attack once with Deep Impact and then spend your normal move action to regain psionic focus, but it provokes AoOs. Unless you have cover or total concealment or if someone used Time Hop on your foe's weapon, this probably isn't the best choice unless you actually need to tank an opponent's AoO every round for whatever reason. You could also charge in with Leap Attack and Deep Impact, then use Hustle to regain your psionic focus and just eat the AoO if your opponent is even still standing.

This build is mostly a one-trick pony, but it can land some seriously devastating (critical) hits.

[danzibr]

Human, Psychic Warrior 8/ Psychic Weapon Master 10, 2 flaws
1. Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility, Psionic Weapon, Psionic Dodge
2. Weapon Focus
3. Linked Power
5. Psionic Meditation
6. Spring Attack or Leap Attack
8. Deep Impact
9. Combat Reflexes
12. Improved Critical
15. Practiced Manifester
18. (Leap Attack)

Use a Falchion, you can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order: 18-20/x2 with a +2 bonus to the crit range becomes 16-20/x2; apply Improved Critical to double the crit range and it becomes 11-20/x2.

Power Attack for full, Spring Attack in, use Deep Impact to deliver your attack as a touch attack, Spring Attack away. Manifest Hustle to gain a move action, and spend it to regain your psionic focus. Repeat that every round until you run out of pp. You could instead just attack once with Deep Impact and then spend your normal move action to regain psionic focus, but it provokes AoOs. Unless you have cover or total concealment or if someone used Time Hop on your foe's weapon, this probably isn't the best choice unless you actually need to tank an opponent's AoO every round for whatever reason. You could also charge in with Leap Attack and Deep Impact, then use Hustle to regain your psionic focus and just eat the AoO if your opponent is even still standing.

This build is mostly a one-trick pony, but it can land some seriously devastating (critical) hits.
Not only that but the crit becomes x3 with the PrC. Still, very cool and thanks for the build.

[Rejusu]

This build is mostly a one-trick pony, but it can land some seriously devastating (critical) hits.

This is why the Psychic Weapon master is so bad though. Psy Wars are so flexible thanks to their powers and you'd have to give up that flexibility, grab a load of useless feats just to become a one-trick pony. It'd just be just like you were playing a fighter instead.

Honestly I think the most offensive thing about the class is that to gain the full benefits of it's class features you have to invest in EVEN more feats. Otherwise all that happens is you get a bunch of somewhat useful bonus feats that you could have got anyway if you hadn't wasted all your feats fulfilling the prereqs. Quite frankly the feats it uses (Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical, etc) should actually be the prerequisites for it.

Really to make the class worthwhile I'd make it a loss of only one or two manifester levels tops, reduce the ridiculous feat cost, make the feat selection prereqs more sensible (ie making them the feats required for the class as suggested above), and remove the XP cost on enhancing the weapon in favour of having it scale with level instead.

As is though it's a pretty terrible PrC. Which is a shame because PsyWarrs are severely lacking in any decent PrC options. Slayer is probably one of the better options, but a lot of it's benefits are rather situational to the campaign you're in.

[Psyren]

As is though it's a pretty terrible PrC. Which is a shame because PsyWarrs are severely lacking in any decent PrC options.

Yeah - I think only Sanctified Mind, Meditant, Soul Manifester and Slayer are worth it. Maybe Quori Nightmare too.

[eggs]

You can use Ardent to make it more viable, but the feats are strict and the lost ML still hurt in the endurance (though it still winds up with more PP than the psychic warrior).

The Combat Reflexes ability makes me want to try this on a Decisive Blow monk. Something like Monk 2/Ardent 10/Psychic Weapons Master 8 might be viable with a high-level start and heavy ACFing (Invisible Fist+Fighting Styles for prereqs+Decisive Blow for AoO damage on the Monk side; Dominant Ideal+Custom Mantles on the Ardent side to basically abuse the system until the character functions properly).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Yeah - I think only Sanctified Mind, Meditant, Soul Manifester and Slayer are worth it. Maybe Quori Nightmare too.

Sanctified Mind and Slayer are both amazing ways to get +16 BAB, I have to say. I'm more a fan of Sanctified Mind with Warmind, but I could see Going Paladin 2/Psychic Warrior X with serenity as a feat for WIS-focus or even just a few more PP with later uses of Warmind.

Soul Manifester is another great X-meets-Y, but I always feel like I'm either going to run out of power points or shuffle my essentia around when I could have just used a swift action augmentation instead. Incarnum's multiclass mechanics don't help much, either, making it a bit of a bookkeeping nightmare in and of itself.

Quori Nightmare is just way too dependent on [mind-effecting] and [fear], making it another "awesome concept, bad execution" PrC.

Meditant bugs me because of the wording on the Psychic Meditation feat:

If your hit points ever fall below 0, an awakened center automatically resets. So even if you have all seven centers activated with one 8 hour "rest," going to below 0 pops them as if they were used.

The limited access without Deep Psychic Meditation hurts, too, but that's more because I dislike having once-per-day-style feats. At the very least, Deep Psychic Meditation gives you 2-for-1 per feat for both total activations and choices. I get that every even level of Meditant is basically another Deep Psychic Meditation feat for uses and that the "up time" increases while the "focus time" goes down each level, but each center still requires a lot of down time to be useable with the same annoying restriction on dropping to 0 - it's not unconscious (thankfully), but it still rustles my jimmies.


As for Psychic Weapon Master itself (and nearly all half-manifesters), Ardent is the answer. That class may as well read "Burn a feat and grab four levels of something else" and be done with it after Ardent 2 or 5, depending on the mantles.:smallsigh:

[Rejusu]

Sanctified Mind and Slayer are both amazing ways to get +16 BAB, I have to say. I'm more a fan of Sanctified Mind with Warmind, but I could see Going Paladin 2/Psychic Warrior X with serenity as a feat for WIS-focus or even just a few more PP with later uses of Warmind.

Problem I have with both is they're both situational to the campaign you're in. Issue I'm finding with Psy War is there's no good all rounder PrC that actually offers something worth taking. Meditant is kind of nice but I'm not convinced it's much of an improvement over basic PsyWar. It just seems like it's one of those classes that doesn't benefit much from multiclassing.

I favour Slayer over Sanctified Mind though because I think the class features are more useful. Slayer has abilities that can be helpful against non-psionics where as SM's class features are almost useless against non-psionics. Plus one of the class features is yet another demand for your precious psionic focus resource, and is also only effective against psionics.

In the right campaign a Sanctified Mind would be great but otherwise it's features are way too situational. Slayer is a lot like that, but the resistance and immunities to mind affecting effects is more generally useful. I like the flavour of it better too, but it seems like it'd be kind of silly to go into it in a campaign that's pretty light on psionics.


Quori Nightmare is just way too dependent on [mind-effecting] and [fear], making it another "awesome concept, bad execution" PrC.

Lack of full BAB as well. Honestly I'm not really sure it's worth going into anything that doesn't give full BAB as a PsyWar. In most cases you'd be better off with the extra manifester level.

[Rubik]

I normally would go for psywar all the way up for all those feats for a feat-starved system (psionics), though I wouldn't say no to illithid slayer and ghostbreaker (from Hyperconscious). They're about the only two PrCs that are really worth it, in my opinion, though I might consider a 1-2 level dip into thrallherd.

[eggs]

Unless a specific psionic favored enemy is consistently common throughout a campaign, I'd skip Slayer for most psychic warrior builds. Without the favored enemy, for 4 feats and one manifester level, Slayer has approximately one ability I'd spend a feat on with a psychic warrior build (Breach Power Resistance). The Super-Mind Blank's dependence on Psionic Focus makes it either rule out abilities like metapsionics or deep impact; the Super-Nondetection is cool for a villain, but is of limited use to a party player.

Psionic Abjurant Champion could be a consistently good option, but it depends on the specifics of the Adaptation's implementation.

[Rejusu]

Unless a specific psionic favored enemy is consistently common throughout a campaign, I'd skip Slayer for most psychic warrior builds. Without the favored enemy, for 4 feats and one manifester level, Slayer has approximately one ability I'd spend a feat on with a psychic warrior build (Breach Power Resistance). The Super-Mind Blank's dependence on Psionic Focus makes it either rule out abilities like metapsionics or deep impact; the Super-Nondetection is cool for a villain, but is of limited use to a party player.

Psionic Abjurant Champion could be a consistently good option, but it depends on the specifics of the Adaptation's implementation.

The dependency on psionic focus isn't too much of an issue with the right feats unless you plan on using it a lot. I mean you'll probably be always psionically focused out of combat and in combat you can regain it with a move action using psionic meditation. You can also get a psicrystal with psicrystal containment and you can get a second focus to expend that way.

But yeah it's very situational so it's probably just better to have the feats instead. I would like full BAB but there's not very many good ways to get it.

[Snowbluff]

The dependency on psionic focus isn't too much of an issue with the right feats unless you plan on using it a lot. I mean you'll probably be always psionically focused out of combat and in combat you can regain it with a move action using psionic meditation. You can also get a psicrystal with psicrystal containment and you can get a second focus to expend that way.

But yeah it's very situational so it's probably just better to have the feats instead. I would like full BAB but there's not very many good ways to get it.

Don't forget you can get it as a Swift with Hustle. You'll be in focus 100% unless you are using feats that spend it, anyway.

[Rejusu]

Don't forget you can get it as a Swift with Hustle. You'll be in focus 100% unless you are using feats that spend it, anyway.

Expend focus to apply Linked power to manifest Hustle and another power with a standard action manifesting time for no actions next round (say Expansion), use your extra move action to refocus. Deep Impact the guy in front of you, use your other move action to refocus. Repeat til out of PP.

[Snowbluff]

Expend focus to apply Linked power to manifest Hustle and another power with a standard action manifesting time for no actions next round (say Expansion), use your extra move action to refocus. Deep Impact the guy in front of you, use your other move action to refocus. Repeat til out of PP.

Yeah, Quicken Psionics for the price o' Hustle /highfive! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: As long as we're doing it this way, Metapower (Hustle) seems worth it. :P

[Rejusu]

Yeah, Quicken Psionics for the price o' Hustle /highfive! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: As long as we're doing it this way, Metapower (Hustle) seems worth it. :P

Yeah, either that or key it to Expansion. I'll have to see which I end up using more. Ah so many feats to take, so few feat slots. I'm not sure when I'd be able to squeeze Metapower in to my build. I've got EWP:Spiked Chain (freebie feat, but I could have gotten it with flaws), Combat Expertise and Improved Trip at level 1. The Mantled Warrior ACF replaces my level 2 bonus feat, level 3 I take Knock-Down. 5 and 6 go to Linked Power and Power attack though I haven't decided which order to do that in (probably LP first). Then after that I want things like Psicrystal Affinity and Psionic Meditation. Plus there's things like Metapower, Psicrystal containment, Deflective Armour or Earth Power (but both of these have prereqs so they're 2 feat costs), and other feats to consider.

Plus I've been considering moving into improving my charging ability too, which is even more feats to consider. Then again maybe Psionic Lions charge on it's own is enough to making charging viable.

[Psyren]

Soul Manifester is another great X-meets-Y, but I always feel like I'm either going to run out of power points or shuffle my essentia around when I could have just used a swift action augmentation instead. Incarnum's multiclass mechanics don't help much, either, making it a bit of a bookkeeping nightmare in and of itself.

I see it the opposite way - the existence of the melds and essentia means big savings for you. As a basic example, a Totemist/Psywar/SM can activate several natural weapons without needing powers like Claws of the Beast to do so, and even enhance them without spending PP. They can also access abilities like flight and teleportation that you would otherwise have to spend PP on, and a Psywar's supply is extremely limited.

I'm not sure what problem you're having with Incarnum and multiclassing - if anything, Incarnum is easier to multiclass with than any other system, because the power of your melds is dependent on essentia investment rather than levels in an incarnum class. A Totemist 2/Psywar 4/SM 10 can have, say, Bloodtalons that are every bit as strong as those of a Totemist 16, without spending a single power point to boost their effectiveness. And while reallocating essentia can indeed eat your swift actions, you shouldn't need to do that very often during a fight - and unlike power points, essentia are not an exhaustible resource.


Meditant bugs me because of the wording on the Psychic Meditation feat:



So even if you have all seven centers activated with one 8 hour "rest," going to below 0 pops them as if they were used.


How often are you going to drop to zero though? With all the extra PP you can get out of Meditant (you can easily double your supply) you can afford a lot of protections - Vigor, Share Pain, Damp Power, Defensive Precognition, Power Resistance etc. Even the feats themselves can protect you, with bonus HP, armor class, saving throws and PR.

It seems to me that if you drop to zero, you've got bigger problems that just a reset center anyway - and if you've already burned up the PP from your Third Eye activation(s), you lose nothing at all as you still have your own native supply to fall back on once revived.


The limited access without Deep Psychic Meditation hurts, too, but that's more because I dislike having once-per-day-style feats. At the very least, Deep Psychic Meditation gives you 2-for-1 per feat for both total activations and choices. I get that every even level of Meditant is basically another Deep Psychic Meditation feat for uses and that the "up time" increases while the "focus time" goes down each level, but each center still requires a lot of down time to be useable with the same annoying restriction on dropping to 0 - it's not unconscious (thankfully), but it still rustles my jimmies.

Once opened, a center stays open until you decide to close it (or you drop to zero as mentioned above , but you're not supposed to be doing that.). An 8-hour investment at the beginning of a weeks-long campaign is trivial.