Character Planning and how to look at it (And Ultimate Magus discussion)

[Suddo]

So I've been mulling over a build for a while (Ultimate Magus, spoiler box at the bottom for summary) but I keep running into a wall that I want a feat earlier than I can get it, due to other feats getting in the way. And I realized that one feat that I don't care much for is the Practice Spellcaster feat, encase I mis-spoke its the feat for +4 CL to any one class, I take it just so I don't lose 9s at level 20.
So here's my question/s: Should I build a character around the magical 20th level when I don't even know if he is going to make it there? Should I just slap things onto it and not worry? What do you tend to do?

The basic build:

Human Wizard 2 / Sorc 1 / Wizard +1 / Ultimate Magus 10 / +Wizard X
Human: Aprrentice (Performer or Spellcaster)
Level 1: Metamagic (Quicken Probably)
Level 3: Practice Spellcaster (Sorc)
Level 6: Mentor
Level 9: Leadership
Level 12: Craft Wondrous Item (This I'd prefer to be at level 3, so I can try out the XP River)

[hymer]

Important note: Practiced Spellcaster doesn't let you cast higher level spells, more spells per day, or know extra spells. It merely elevates your caster level for determining effects of spells by four or up to your HD, whichever is less.

[Suddo]

Important note: Practiced Spellcaster doesn't let you cast higher level spells, more spells per day, or know extra spells. It merely elevates your caster level for determining effects of spells by four or up to your HD, whichever is less.

But Ultimate Magus only cares which class has the lower Caster Level. It causes the PrC to only cause a lose of 1 caster levels. Combined with the 1 Sorc level you end up with 18th Wizard and 9(?)th Sorc. Its a common trick and I've run it by my DM, I think he's okay with it because it forces me to burn a feat.

[Mission0]

It really depends on the campaign I guess. Some campaigns only last a few levels and they are over. Others can start from 1 and go all the way to 20 and possibly beyond. Dungeon Master dedication should also be thought about.

So the best advice I can give is to talk to your dungeon master to ask them their thoughts of where the campaign is going, how far it will go, and how dedicated to the campaign they are.

Then if they are dedicated and the campaign is long go for the long haul, but if the campaign will end short or the DM is not dedicated then go ahead and have the fun you can while you can.

[hymer]

@ Suddo: Clearly you've got it right. I withdraw my, no doubt erroneous, objection.

[eggs]

It doesn't make sense to focus on level 20 if your game is only going to last until level 8; especially if building for 20 means you'll die from a chance encounter with a feisty housecat at level 3.

I'd still go with Practiced Spellcaster in that build though. The CL bump is a huge benefit on its own, and faster progress on Wizard abilities won't hurt anywhere in its progression.

[Phaederkiel]

first: eggs has it right: practised spellcaster is a great boost anyway.

second: why do you only have four levels before you go UM? five are needed.

third: Why oh why do you balance your sorc and wizzy levels? It is far better to take one class for 4 levels and one for one. This is what makes UM better than other Theurge classes, that you only screw your main caster class by one missed level...

fourth: may I humbly suggest using Beguiler as the other half? It will have a better list than a sorc lvl 1 and has an Int synergie. That is to say, if you do not want to use your sorc as the main class. Which would be low-op in comparision (which is not the same as "a bad Idea", just weaker. you know your group better than me - albeit the spellcaster trick suggests that you are searching for some power)

Fifth: Why do you take quicken at first lvl? You cannot use it before lvl tennish. Shouldn't you take something at low level you can actually use?
like sculpt, extend, even some of the sudden metamagic feats? Metamagic school focus is a good feat, too.

this brings me to sixt: I do not know some of your feats. what does apprentice performer do? what does mentor do? Why not take more metamagic to use with UMs single important classfeature? Why take something as borked as leadership? If you take leadership, why not have your cohort take the craft feats?


may I humbly suggest looking at

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12849375#post12849375

where we just discuss some finer points of the UM?

[Godskook]

1.If you're not getting 9ths by level 20, that means you're going to be spending most of your high-level career(read: lvl 10+) 2 spell levels behind or worse.

2.You're rushing metamagic, which is rarely useful before you've got enough invested to actually use it. UM won't really help you on this one for long enough that just taking your metamagic at level 12, practiced spell caster at level 1(switch your levels around, might as well) and craft wonderous at level 3. This will pretty much fix your problems in your current build, unless you need a lot of ranks in particular skills for some reason.

[erikun]

If you don't take Practiced Spellcaster at 3rd level, then you'll be losing out on your Wizard spellcasting at 6th level (UM1) and again at 10th (UM4) because those would require you to devote your single "+1 to spellcasting" to the Sorcerer half. You're already giving up one caster level by taking a level in Sorcerer; you likely don't want to get behind by another two.

You won't be able to Quicken spells until 10th level anyways. That is the earliest time your Wizard-side would have 5th-level spell slots (for quickening 1st-level spells) and to have 4th-level Sorcerer spell slots for the UM's Augmented Casting, you need to wait until 14th level.

And as others have mentioned, you can't have 8 ranks in spellcraft at 4th level.

[Edit]
You could probably shuffle the Craft feat earlier, possibly replacing Mentor at 6th level. You might even qualify for it at 3rd level, assuming starting with Sorc1 and taking Practiced Spellcaster + metamagic as your first-level feats. It depends on how you're reading Practiced Spellcaster.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

UM requires Spellcraft 8 ranks, which you must have prior to choosing UM 1 as your next character level. That means you need to have at least five levels before taking UM 1.

You're better off playing a near-full-progression [prepared class] with a little bit of [spontaneous class] casting thrown in, rather than trying to keep up your ability in both but ending up 4+ levels behind in both. Quality is better than quantity, so having higher level spells as early as possible will be far more beneficial than having more spell slots than you need but being two or more spell levels behind what's expected to defeat a given encounter.

Beguiler from PH2 is a much better choice than Sorcerer for a Wizard/UM build. First of all, its spellcasting is Int-based, so you're not splitting your abilities between two different mental stats. Second, taking it at first level you get an extremely skillful character, and with Able Learner in RoD and your high Int score it will be easy to keep up your ranks in all your favorite skills. Third, it gives you access to tons of spells that are great for solving noncombat problems, plus spells you wouldn't have access to as a Wizard/Sorcerer like Glibness. Just going from using two casting stats to a purely Int-focused character with a huge class skill list makes Beguiler worth using over Sorcerer.

Take a look at the feat Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon. It lets you spend two spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher. With that a UM can spend spell slots from his spontaneous class to cast Wizard spells he's learned. You can pick up highly situational Wizard spells and never bother preparing them, because you can cast them on the fly whenever they're needed thanks to that feat. If you use Beguiler, it will also give you knowledge of the next higher level of the Beguiler spell list, so you'll have a wealth of problem-solving spells at your fingertips at all times.

For level progressions, let's look at Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM 10, with Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler. At UM 6, you have 5th level Beguiler casting at caster level 11, and 10th level Wizard casting at caster level 12, so UM 7 has to go toward Beguiler. That ends up with 13/15 Wizard casting and 9/15 Beguiler casting by level 15, and you'll still have Wizard 9ths by level 19. For a more versatile character in the lower levels, I would probably instead go Beguiler 1/ Wizard 3/ Beguiler 1/ UM 10, still with Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler. That can put 10/10 UM toward Wizard, and still ends up with 13/15 Wizard and 9/15 Beguiler, but you've got 2nd level Beguiler spell slots at level 8 instead of level 10. With Versatile Spellcaster that gives you access to the 3rd level Beguiler spell list and spontaneous access to your 1st-3rd level Wizard spells two levels sooner.

If you use the Illumian race from Races of Destiny with the Krau sigil, the Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM 10 with Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler can still put 10/10 UM toward Wizard. That will have 14/15 Wizard casting and 8/15 Beguiler casting, so you'll only be one level behind on Wizard for your entire career and still have 4th level Beguiler spell slots. Illumians are also Humanoid (Human) so you can still take Able Learner, and your Wizard caster level will be off better thanks to Krau.

[Phaederkiel]

oh how I love when people do not read the thread and repeat what already was posted...:smallwink:

don't worry, happens. But the suggestion to go beguiler 1 /wiz 3 / beguiler 1 is quite interesting. I would say i'd like to have some powerful spells earlier.

[Sudain]

Alternativly Warmage(like beguiler but evocation) can be quite helpful as well. Just depends on what style you want to do.

[Godskook]

oh how I love when people do not read the thread and repeat what already was posted...:smallwink:

For myself, I sincerely think I added new(albeit similar) information. For others, I know that sometimes, 3-hour posting can happen(happens to me) where you click "reply" early on in the thread, but don't finish typing your post till 3 hours goes by, but post it anyway, cause frankly, you typed it up, right?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Alternativly Warmage(like beguiler but evocation) can be quite helpful as well. Just depends on what style you want to do.

Warmage would be an excellent suggestion, but the Edge ability which adds your Int bonus to spell damage only applies to Warmage spells. That makes it just as MAD as Sorcerer, but it adds even less versatility. Sorcerer can at least pick up Power Word: Pain and Ray of Stupidity if you ban Enchantment from Wizard.


I think I added quite a bit in favor of Beguiler. I'm the only one in this thread who brought up Able Learner or Versatile Spellcaster, two of its three biggest selling points.

Something that hasn't been brought up yet is a Spellthief dip with Master Spellthief from CS. You can go Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ UM 10, and with Master Spellthief your caster level for both Wizard and Beguiler is equal to your level of spellcasting capability in each class (the level which determines spells/day and highest level spells available) plus your Spellthief level. That means you can put 10/10 UM toward Wizard because your caster level in both classes will always be equal. In this case you may actually want to use Sorcerer for Wings of Flurry, since you'll have some insane caster level stacking shenanigans:
Level: CL; 6: 7; 7: 9; 8: 11; 9: 13; 10: 15; 11: 17; 12: 19; 13: 21; 14: 23; 15: 26.

[eggs]

Bloodlines can deal with the skill ranks and can be useful in their own right in a build centered around CL boosts. As long as you take all the bloodline levels before character level 2, you only lose out on 1-3k experience; even if you're lazy with experience calculations and continue advance characters of all levels at the same rate.

I'd support Sorcerer base, though. With a heavily no-save spell selection, Charisma doesn't require focused development or prioritization. And ~3 spells known cover ~50% of the combined War Mage and Beguiler spell lists' functionality.

[Suddo]

Thanks for all the advice. And sorry to hymer if I sounded like I was barking.

Anyways:
I realize now that the Ultimate Magus Level is taken 1 level later, this doesn't effect the overall build.
The main reason I'm feat starved is because I'm collecting Cohorts (which the DM hasn't gotten back to me on, he is definitely allowing Leadership). Basically Mentor gives me 1 and Leadership gives me 1. I want these up and running as fast as possible. But at the same time I want to play a very passive character, I'm pretty sure I'm going to be the only person in the group optimizing this much, and Craft Wondrous Item works quite well for this idea, and I want to see how much XP is like a river.
This leaves me with getting Craft Wondrous Item at 12th level which I don't suppose is all that bad.
The reason I'm going Sorc over Beguiler, which may still be wrong, is because I'm already Charismatic, taking Leadership and such, so it doesn't hurt me too much, 8 STR and 8 WIS are going to suck some. Though I will agree that Beguiler sounds amazing if not simply because it gives me access to so many cool skills.
As for why I rush the metamagic its because I need 1 too enter Ultimate Magus and Quicken seems like the most useful Meta-magic to me. And once I get Augmented Casting (UM 3) I'll have some fun with it (more so when my Sorc gets 4th level spells).
I guess Practiced Spellcaster isn't that bad. I just question its useful-ness. And besides I may just start screwing around if I manage to make it to UM 7. And by screw around I mean just start nerfing my character for cool stuff.

Edit:
@Biffoniacus_Furiou: Wouldn't Beguiler 1/ Wizard 3 / Spellthief 1 / UM 10 cause all the odd ball levels (1, 4 & 7) all target the Spellthief sense it is the lowest casting class you have? I'd love it if it didn't I've wanted to add Master Spellthief to this build but thought I'd have to wait until after UM 7.

[Aeryr]

Just a quick note: Mentor replaces Apprentice you don't have to take it as another feat.

[Darth_Versity]

If your collecting cohorts and want to remain a more passive caster, is ultimate magus the best way to do that? Wouldn't War Weaver be better to buff your two cohorts and your allies in a passive manner?

I guess my real question is, why did you choose Ultimate Magus?

[hymer]

@ Suddo: I didn't think you were barking. You actually took the time to set me straight, thanks for that. :) I'm glad you got some input from the thread.

[Rejusu]

Even with Practised Spellcaster you're still sacrificing a second caster level to Sorcerer with a 1 Sorc 4 Wizard build. With PS your Wizard CL will be 1 lower going into UM1 (S5/W4) so your Wizard increases, going into UM4 (S7/W7) they'll be equal so you can choose to apply it to your wizard but going into UM7 (S9/W10) your wizard is 1 higher. Unless I've missed something from your build you need to increase your Sorc CL by 1 to get full Wizard progression from UM.

Thankfully there's the Illumian race from Races of Destiny that makes up for this. Take the Krau sigil and you get a +1 CL to all your spellcasting classes (up to your max character level), when you reach level 2 and get a second sigil this bonus increases to +2. What this means is that by the time you're going into UM7 your sorcerer level will be equal to your Wizard level (S11/W11). What's more is that it keeps your wizard caster level equal with your character level throughout UM.

Of course it means losing yet another feat. See if your DM will let you use flaws from UA to make up for it.

Also to echo Darth_Versity, if you're more interested in the cohorts than anything else then why UM in particular? Might I recommend Thrallherd if you want to play the minion master game? Thralls are generally superior to cohorts.

[Suddo]

@Darth_Versity: So Ultimate Magus is more the original build that I was thinking of doing. Then I asked about Leadership and he said: "Yeah Leadership is in." So now I'm collecting Cohorts. He seems to not mind as it forces me to interact with the world around me instead of just being separate, which I would do even without leadership.

@Aeryr: See I thought that for a second, as the text says you can immediately retrain it, but the pre-req for Mentor is Apprentice, it says so in the little sidebar at the bottom, which to me means that I have to have both. If it does replace the feat, because it doesn't require the feat, then I'm fine with the build as I can just take my Crafting at 9 which is a lot better.

@Rejusu: Yeah I realize I'll be losing 2 levels of wizard but that I'm less concerned about, like I said I'm probably going to be the most optimized person in the group and its just part of being an UM. That Illumian trick is interesting and if I have the feat to spare I may just do that, and after discussing it with my DM. Yeah he's kind-of allowing flaws but how he is won't help.

@Master Spellthief: I'm re-looking at this sense I understand more how it works, due to looking at the Illumian trick. Though this assumes UM1, 4, 7 don't target the Spellthief. It works I just messed up my math
So if I go Sorc 1 / SpellThief 1 / Wizard 3 / UM 10
Level 5: S5 / W4
UM1: S6 / W5 (Sorc 1 + Spell thief 1 + Practiced Spellcaster 4 = 6)
UM 4: S6 / W6
UM 7: S6 / W7
See this is where I get confused about that, beyond the targeting ST with UM.

[Rejusu]

@Darth_Versity: So Ultimate Magus is more the original build that I was thinking of doing. Then I asked about Leadership and he said: "Yeah Leadership is in." So now I'm collecting Cohorts. He seems to not mind as it forces me to interact with the world around me instead of just being separate, which I would do even without leadership.

@Aeryr: See I thought that for a second, as the text says you can immediately retrain it, but the pre-req for Mentor is Apprentice, it says so in the little sidebar at the bottom, which to me means that I have to have both. If it does replace the feat, because it doesn't require the feat, then I'm fine with the build as I can just take my Crafting at 9 which is a lot better.

@Rejusu: Yeah I realize I'll be losing 2 levels of wizard but that I'm less concerned about, like I said I'm probably going to be the most optimized person in the group and its just part of being an UM. That Illumian trick is interesting and if I have the feat to spare I may just do that, and after discussing it with my DM. Yeah he's kind-of allowing flaws but how he is won't help.

@Master Spellthief: I'm re-looking at this sense I understand more how it works, due to looking at the Illumian trick. Though this assumes UM1, 4, 7 don't target the Spellthief.
So if I go Sorc 1 / SpellThief 1 / Wizard 3 / UM 10
Level 5: S5 / W4
UM1: S5 / W5
UM 4: S5 / W6
UM 7: S6 / W6 (I lose 1 wizard here)
See this is where I get confused about that, beyond the targeting ST with UM.

If you're not worried about optimisation then losing levels of wizard is fine, but the most beneficial route through UM is to get 10/10 wizard progression. You never need worry about ST being targeted by Ultimate Magus though, ST doesn't gain a caster level until 4th level so it's not a valid target for determining your lowest caster level.

[macdaddy]

The thread has devolved a bit into what makes a better/optimized ultimate magus build, and many good suggestions have been made (specifically Phaederkiel and Biffoniacus_Furiou).

Since all of that is covered, I will focus on the original question: Why practiced spell caster? should I care about level 20?

Normally, I would say don't worry about level 20, worry about the levels you have to live through and what your power level is during that ramp up, especially in the 6th -12th level range.

Practiced spell caster serves 2 important purposes:

Spell duration: Your spontaneous class caster level will be +3/4 levels higher. This is very useful because many of the spells you will use have parameters(duration, dmg dice, etc) tied to caster level. This is pretty important and useful at low levels. A Mage Armor spell cast from the spontaneous class will last all of 1 hour until you hit 6th level, and won't approach 6 hours until you hit 10th or 11th level. With practiced spell caster, it will be 5 hours at 5th level and 6 at 6th.
arcane spell casting power: It means your primary spell casting arcane class will be 1 level slower in its progression, same as a sorcerer, instead of 2 levels until you reach 13th level. Lets face it, your arcane class is the power house. When do you want access to 3rd level spells? at 6th or at 7th? Do you want access to 4th level spells at 8th or at 9th? Higher level spells are always more powerful, and as a focused specialist (why wouldn't you be?), that's 3 spell slots plus your bonus spells of higher level goodness.


So you are taking practiced spell caster NOT just for what happens at 20th level, but also for what happens between 6th and 12th.

Now that I have answered it in a rather long-winded way....

I agree with everyone else about Beguiler/wizard/um. It adds a lot more to the build than sorc/wiz. Skills, d6HP, spontaneous casting from a solid list, int based casting, etc.

Biffoniacus_Furiou's suggestion of beguiler 1/wiz 3/beguiler 1 as an entry point is interesting as it boost up the spontaneous class progression for 2nd level spells at 8th instead of 10th. However, it sacrifices the 4th level wizard spells a little pushing them from 8th to 9th level. I think I would rather have 4th level wizard spells over 2nd level anything spells.

and on a suggestion I haven't seen anyone else make, there is no reason for you to not make the wizard a focused specialist (conj or transmutation). The spontaneous class can handle the schools which have been forbidden thus giving you the best of both worlds (boatloads of spells and access to almost every wiz/sorc spell).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Regarding Master Spellthief:
Your UM 1, 4, and 7 advance your spellcasting ability in whichever class has the lower caster level. Your actual level in any class is irrelevant, it's your caster level for that class's spells' durations, damage, and other effects based on caster level. Master Spellthief makes the caster level of all your classes equal, so at UM 1, 4, and 7, you can pick whichever class you want to advance its spellcasting.

There's absolutely no reason to take Practiced Spellcaster if you're taking Master Spellthief. With Master Spellthief, you total your level of spellcasting capability in each class to determine your caster level for all of your classes, which is going to be higher than your character level. Your level of spellcasting capability is what determines your spells/day, what level of spells you can cast, etc. so each of those UM levels that advance two classes end up adding two levels to your caster level total. There's also no reason to use Illumian if you're using Master Spellthief, because the entire point of that was the Krau sigil for another Practiced Spellcaster effect, which is no longer of any benefit at all with Master Spellthief. Ideally you should go Illumian (Kau) with Practiced Spellcaster for 14/15 Wizard and 8/15 spontaneous, or you go Human with Master Spellthief and get 13/15 Wizard and 8/15 spontaneous with an inflated caster level. If you can't use Illumian and you can't use Master Spellthief shenanigans, then you go Human with Practiced Spellcaster and get 13/15 Wizard and 9/15 spontaneous.

Regarding the Beguiler 1/ Wizard 3/ Beguiler 1 entry:
I was suggesting that under the assumption that both Versatile Spellcaster would be used, and that you were already looking at a 13/15 prepared, 9/15 spontaneous build. While it may move your 4th level Wizard spells from 9th to 10th level, you should consider what those 2nd level Beguiler spell slots two levels sooner actually allow you to do: With Versatile Spellcaster, you can spend two 2nd level Beguiler spell slots to cast any spell you know of 3rd level. It gives you spontaneous access to all of your 3rd level Wizard spells, and because you can use that to cast 3rd level spells you also gain knowledge of the 3rd level Beguiler spell list and are able to cast those as well by spending two 2nd level spell slots. I was suggesting it for greater versatility, and because in the long run you're no further behind in Wizard than you otherwise would have been since it's still a 13/15 prepared, 9/15 spontaneous build.

[Suddo]

I make assumptions based on my previous post's wrong math, I've fixed them in that post
Hold on now this almost sounds too good to be true, which I guess is why you say shenanigans at one point.
If I go say Spellthief 1 / Wizard 3 / Beguiler 1 then I get to cast, not only caster level but also spell capacity and levels, as a 5th Level Wizard and 5th Level Beguiler, by RAW? That sounds crazy. I assume this is all based on this line: "Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells." Then it saying that it 4 Wiz / 4 ST would cast as a 8th level Wiz.
I think my DM will lean towards what I'm thinking and say that the Spellthief levels apply to each caster and don't cause them to apply to each other, so ST 1 / Wiz 3 / Sorc 1 would cast a 4th Level Wizard and 2nd Level Sorc (which isn't that bad of an idea either).

Thanks for clearing up UM not caring about Spellthief 1.

[Rejusu]

Regarding Master Spellthief:
Your UM 1, 4, and 7 advance your spellcasting ability in whichever class has the lower caster level. Your actual level in any class is irrelevant, it's your caster level for that class's spells' durations, damage, and other effects based on caster level. Master Spellthief makes the caster level of all your classes equal, so at UM 1, 4, and 7, you can pick whichever class you want to advance its spellcasting.

There's absolutely no reason to take Practiced Spellcaster if you're taking Master Spellthief. With Master Spellthief, you total your level of spellcasting capability in each class to determine your caster level for all of your classes, which is going to be higher than your character level. Your level of spellcasting capability is what determines your spells/day, what level of spells you can cast, etc. so each of those UM levels that advance two classes end up adding two levels to your caster level total. There's also no reason to use Illumian if you're using Master Spellthief, because the entire point of that was the Krau sigil for another Practiced Spellcaster effect, which is no longer of any benefit at all with Master Spellthief. Ideally you should go Illumian (Kau) with Practiced Spellcaster for 14/15 Wizard and 8/15 spontaneous, or you go Human with Master Spellthief and get 13/15 Wizard and 8/15 spontaneous with an inflated caster level. If you can't use Illumian and you can't use Master Spellthief shenanigans, then you go Human with Practiced Spellcaster and get 13/15 Wizard and 9/15 spontaneous.

Regarding the Beguiler 1/ Wizard 3/ Beguiler 1 entry:
I was suggesting that under the assumption that both Versatile Spellcaster would be used, and that you were already looking at a 13/15 prepared, 9/15 spontaneous build. While it may move your 4th level Wizard spells from 9th to 10th level, you should consider what those 2nd level Beguiler spell slots two levels sooner actually allow you to do: With Versatile Spellcaster, you can spend two 2nd level Beguiler spell slots to cast any spell you know of 3rd level. It gives you spontaneous access to all of your 3rd level Wizard spells, and because you can use that to cast 3rd level spells you also gain knowledge of the 3rd level Beguiler spell list and are able to cast those as well by spending two 2nd level spell slots. I was suggesting it for greater versatility, and because in the long run you're no further behind in Wizard than you otherwise would have been since it's still a 13/15 prepared, 9/15 spontaneous build.

Yeah. The Master spell thief route is probably better if your DM is either bold or careless enough to allow you to get a caster level higher than your character level. If not though the Illumian/PS route is better as it doesn't require you to sacrifice a level of casting capability.

Even without Master spellthief though UM can't advance your spell thief caster level as spell thief doesn't actually have a caster level until you have four levels in it.


Hold on now this almost sounds too good to be true, which I guess is why you say shenanigans at one point.
If I go say Spellthief 1 / Wizard 3 / Beguiler 1 then I get to cast, not only caster level but also spell capacity and levels, as a 5th Level Wizard and 5th Level Beguiler, by RAW? That sounds crazy. I assume this is all based on this line: "Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells." Then it saying that it 4 Wiz / 4 ST would cast as a 8th level Wiz.
I think my DM will lean towards what I'm thinking and say that the Spellthief levels apply to each caster and don't cause them to apply to each other, so ST 1 / Wiz 3 / Sorc 1 would cast a 4th Level Wizard and 2nd Level Sorc (which isn't that bad of an idea either).

Thanks for clearing up UM not caring about Spellthief 1.

Not exactly. It can give you a CASTER level higher than your character level. Because unlike nearly every other thing that increases caster level it forgets the little bit that says your caster level is capped by your hit die. Though frankly as RAW I'd say it can't increase your CL past your character level anyway.

"Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells."

To me "arcane spellcaster levels" mean class levels rather than caster levels. So it's one that's up for interpretation. Either way Master spellthief will only give you CASTER LEVELS, not spellcasting capability. For instance the ST4/Wiz4 would cast spells as an 8th level Wizard, but could only cast 2nd level spells. Caster level is only used to determine spell scaling, not spells known or spell slots available.

You know, Suddo considering you're accepting being MAD anyway for Leadership. Why not use another Cha based spontaneous caster like Nar Demonbinder?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030502a&page=2

You do have to confangle it a bit though to qualify for UM (UM requires you be able to cast 1st level spontaneous spells but Demonbinder's spells start at 4th) and it's much later entry than this build (Wiz 7/NDB 1/UM 1) as you can only do it at 9th level. However you do get 4th through 8th(!) level spontaneous spells rather than 0 through 4th level spells.

Plus since the way NDB calculates it's caster level is Demonbinder level + level of one other spellcasting class I think you can get away with only needing PS or Illuminum rather than both to get full wizard progression.

[Suddo]

Oh so that's the Nar Demonbinder I've heard so much about. Good to know its online.
A couple reasons I won't go that route. The main one is:
1) We are playing with Core, Completes, Races and a few things from a handful of other books the DM has (some varients from UA, teleport is the ritual-like cast, PHB2 classes, Taint from Heroes of Horror).

I, as a DM which I'm not in this case, would allow Master Spellthief to increase your Caster Level past your Character level, maybe that's just me being ignorate, but I wouldn't allow your spell capabilities to increase past your Character Level. But that doesn't change the fact that the main shenanagains are about it Master Spellthief allowing me to take UM as 10/10 Wiz instead of 9/10 (as I showed above it probably would) I just realized where I made my mistake. This is going to be awesome if my DM allows it I'd been wanting to use Spellthief and the retain casted spell spell (can't remember name) to grab as many spells as possible.

[Rejusu]

I, as a DM which I'm not in this case, would allow Master Spellthief to increase your Caster Level past your Character level, maybe that's just me being ignorate, but I wouldn't allow your spell capabilities to increase past your Character Level. But that doesn't change the fact that the main shenanagains are about it Master Spellthief allowing me to take UM as 10/10 Wiz instead of 9/10 (as I showed above it probably would) I just realized where I made my mistake. This is going to be awesome if my DM allows it I'd been wanting to use Spellthief and the retain casted spell spell (can't remember name) to grab as many spells as possible.

MS will let you take UM as 10/10 Wiz but you'll only get 18/20 Wiz overall as you lose one level to Sorcerer and one to Spellthief. You can already take UM as 10/10 Wiz with practised spellcaster and Illuminum without needing spellthief though and this gets you 19/20 Wiz. It's not a big difference sure, but a level of lost casting capability (especially since you lost it early on so it'll be affecting you throughout) is only really worth it if you get something significant in return.

Now if your DM allows MS to give you a caster level that exceeds your hit die that's definitely worth it. If not the spellthief isn't worth it over the Illuminum/PS entry method.

[Phaederkiel]

I just want to add that the usage of versatile spellcaster biff writes about is pretty much sure to be met with a banhammer.

Yes, that Feat is incredibly sloppily written.

It can mean that:

a) you can use two lower level spontaneous spell slots to cast one spontaneous spell of a level one higher but not higher than your highest spellslot (which is RAI),

b)you can use two lower level prepared spell slots to cast one prepared spell of a level one higher but not higher than your highest spellslot (which is probably not RAI, but arguably RAW because you can argue that a wizard *knows* the spells in his spellbook)

c)you can use two lower level spontaneous spell slots to cast one prepared spell of a level one higher or two prepared to cast one spontaneous (but still not higher than your highest spellslot) (still pretty RAW, but also REALLY powerful)


for any casting of wizard spells with this feat, be prepared to make a sacrifice as to rebalance a little. If you can swap in spells from outside of what you prepared, your wizard will be OVER 9000 times as powerrful as he should be. Dont do this. Tell your DM that you will only ever cast prepared spells with VS that you already had prepared this Day and have already used. It is bad enough.

and then comes the big stinkers.

d)you can use two lower level spontaneous spell slots to cast one spontaneous spell of a level one higher even if you could not cast spells of this level normally (which is RAW, but ...)

e)you can use two lower level spell slots to gain one spell slot of a level one higher. This spell slot can be combined ANOTHER time to get a spell slot ANOTHER lvl Higher. (which is not even close to either RAW or RAI)


a), b), even c) are all okay. But if your DM ever allows d) or e) (or *shudder* a combination thereof), he is either stupid or will hit you with a pink piano the first time you start spoiling everyones fun...



____________


anyway, delaying your wizard progression by one and speeding the beguiler up by one (which, in the long run, does not change anything) seems an Idea to be considered. You gain a lot of useful skills and the beguilers cloaked casting and surprise casting. That may not be much, but it is better than a level without feats. You also gain acess to the relevant defensive beguiler spells a lot faster. Which helps banning illusion with the wizard.

If I started play at lvl 8 or 9, I would consider it.

[Suddo]

@Phaederkiel: Its still an awesome feat even without abuse. I'm just starved for feats so I'll probably not use it.

I don't want to go Illumiate because I lose a feat though I guess I lose on on the Spellthief path. Though now I have to think if going Spellthief is worth burning a feat on (I'll still be able to steal max spell level). I'll lose the same amount of Wizard levels but 1 more Sorc / Beguiler. Ugh this is so annoying, so many cool options.

Edit: @Beguiler ideas:
I realize that beguilers are awesome but I really want the spell options and I'm not a big fan of illusion spells no matter how cool they are. Plus if I go with the Spellthief level at the beginning and get the 6 HP and 6 + Int skills.

So:
Spellthief 1 / Sorc 1 / Wiz 3 / UM 10
Human: Apprentice
Level 1: Metamagic Feat
Level 3: Practice Spellcaster (Sorc)
Level 6: Mentor
Level 9: Leadership
Level 12: Master Spellthief
Level 15: Craft Wondrous (Able Learner maybe)
Oh well looks like I won't be crafting anytime soon.

[Rejusu]

@Phaederkiel: Its still an awesome feat even without abuse. I'm just starved for feats so I'll probably not use it.

I don't want to go Illumiate because I lose a feat though I guess I lose on on the Spellthief path. Though now I have to think if going Spellthief is worth burning a feat on (I'll still be able to steal max spell level). I'll lose the same amount of Wizard levels but 1 more Sorc / Beguiler. Ugh this is so annoying, so many cool options.

Edit: @Beguiler ideas:
I realize that beguilers are awesome but I really want the spell options and I'm not a big fan of illusion spells no matter how cool they are. Plus if I go with the Spellthief level at the beginning and get the 6 HP and 6 + Int skills.

So:
Spellthief 1 / Sorc 1 / Wiz 3 / UM 10
Human: Apprentice
Level 1: Metamagic Feat
Level 3: Practice Spellcaster (Sorc)
Level 6: Mentor
Level 9: Leadership
Level 12: Master Spellthief
Level 15: Craft Wondrous (Able Learner maybe)
Oh well looks like I won't be crafting anytime soon.

You're wasting a feat there though. You don't need practiced spellcaster at all with master spellthief in your build. The point of Master Spellthief is it allows you to stack your class levels when determining your caster level. Which means that your caster level for all your classes will always be equal to your hit die, which means that at UM 1, 4, and 7 you get to pick which of your classes gets additional spells per day (so you can get 10/10 wizard progression).

Though looking at it you can't actually get Master Spellthief until level 6 because it requires you can cast 2nd level Arcane spells and have the steal spell feature and you can't get both by level 3 without taking precocious apprentice. In which case I'd say going the spellthief route isn't worth it in the slightest (unless your DM lets MS give you a CL that exceeds your hit die) because you'll be wasting a feat no matter what you do and you lose a level of wizard progression to boot.

Oh and I'd just ignore the steal spell ability, it requires you to successfully sneak attack an enemy and it only works on casters. You're not going to manage to pull it off nearly enough to make it worthwhile.

My recommendation would be to go Illuminum Sorc 1/Wiz 4/UM10 with your feats as 1st: Apprentice, 3rd: PS (Sorc), 6th: Mentor, 9th: Leadership, 12th: Craft. You can get craft at level 9 too if your DM lets you exchange Apprentice for Mentor (there's a bit in the feat description that says "If you allow" which means technically it's RAW but it's up to DM discretion). Really all you're losing out on is the metamagic, but you can't really have everything and it's probably the least important part of your build if you're focusing on Cohorts.

Frankly I'm not sure why you don't consider something like Thrallherd instead of UM, it seems to be a much better fit for your concept and doesn't require as many feats to work. It has the same entry point (ECL6) and I don't think there's anything that'd restrict it working with apprentice. PLUS thrallherds version of leadership is more powerful as they're level -1 as opposed to level -2 (though it doesn't stack with leadership) and what's more you can get it at the same time you get mentor even if you can't exchange the apprenticeship feat.

You'll have to make some changes of course, you'll be psionic as opposed to arcane so craft wonderous item is out, but craft universal item is in!

It's up to you of course but my frank opinion is you're trying to do too much with too little. Splitting your focus between cohorts and Ulitmate Magus leaves you incredibly feat starved and limited in what you can do. If you were to go Thrallherd you'd stop being an arcane caster, but you'd be able to squeeze all the other stuff you wanted (craft and cohorts) into a much smaller and streamlined package.

You can go Psion 1-5, TH1, get apprentice at level 1, craft at level 3, and mentor at level 6. Plus you're not race restricted so you can get another feat from being human. And you're less MAD as you don't need a particularly high Cha for thralling it up. It also means your feat selection isn't tied up until level 12, after level 6 you're free to select whatever you like.

Personally I'd decide what kind of character you want to play most and focus on that. Otherwise you'll end up pulling your hair out trying to figure out how to get what you want with so few feats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're using Master Spellthief, you don't even need Practiced Spellcaster at all, so you're wasting a feat there. Put Master Spellthief at 6th level, you gain feats before you gain spells and class features (PHB p58-59) so you'll use the same caster level for all your classes before UM 1 advances your spellcasting.

Able Learner can only be taken at 1st level.

You left out Versatile Spellcaster, which is one of the biggest reasons to even use UM at all.

My advice would be to include apprenticeship and availability as a mentor in your character background, but don't go wasting feats on it. It's entirely up to your DM anyway whether you even have an apprentice and whether he's even useful or is simply a burden/liability. The Apprentice and Mentor feats should not have been feats in the first place, they're just a horribly designed way to add some slight mechanical benefit to a certain character background. You don't have to take those feats to put that in your character's history. Unless you're playing a solo character, PCs don't need an entourage anyway. If you do want some sort of companion early on, Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) (riding dog) is probably your best choice, or if you're spending two feats get Obtain Familiar (CA) and Improved Familiar (DMG, CW).

Spellthief 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Wizard 3/ UM 10/ etc.
Human: Able Learner or Wild Cohort
Level 1: Metamagic Feat
Level 3: Versatile Spellcaster
Level 6: Master Spellthief
Level 9: Leadership
Level 12: Craft Wondrous
Level 15:

[Suddo]

I'd have to check with my DM to see if he'd rule Master Spellthief to work that way. I suspect he might only apply the Spellthief levels to each class individually, but not have them stack together.
I'm not certain if versatile spellcaster is in the scope of books the DM has allowed, I'll check to see.
And just to double check what all are you liking about Versitile Spellcaster. Is it just that its a good feat or is it the fact you could use it to cast your wizard spells without spending the spellslot for the day.

@Rejusu: You need a meta-magic feat to enter UM, that's the only reason I take one that early. Its not because I really like them its because I need it before level 6.

I'd disagree with apprentice feats being worth less. They allow for you to gain skills as class skills and Mentor as a feat is just leadership with a different name which is a good feat. Though they may have not been the best design I like them and the DM sounded interested as they would force me to interact with the world around me.
Though I will agree that outside of Mentor being silly that taking Beguiler 1 and Able Learner is a better idea, as Beguiler give Diplo and UMD which are the two skills I wanted.
Also the spellthief ability allows me to steal willing NPC's spells and make scrolls of them to add to my spellbook later. This could be very powerful. Though it may cost about the same as reading it out of a spellbook it may at the same time not. Plus it allows me to RP a guy who just wants to consume knowledge.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Master Spellthief:
Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells.

It would affect the spells from all your classes, so it stacks the levels in all your classes. I don't see any ambiguity there at all.


Versatile Spellcaster:
You can spend two spontaneous spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher. That means you can spend two 0-level Sorcerer slots to cast a 1st level Wizard spell you know. You can spend two 1st-level Sorcerer slots to cast a 2nd level Wizard spell you know. It gives you spontaneous access to your Wizard spells of up to one level higher than your spontaneous spell slots.


Apprentice/Mentor:
"An apprentice is similar to a cohort, except that the apprentice doesn’t accompany the mentor on adventures as a standard rule. A new apprentice is always a 1st-level character."

You get a 1st level apprentice who doesn't go on adventures with you, which means he's either going to stay 1st level for quite a long time, or he's going to go on his own adventures and maybe ask you to come help him every now and then. Mentor is not Leadership Lite, it's a waste of two feats.

[Rejusu]

I'd have to check with my DM to see if he'd rule Master Spellthief to work that way. I suspect he might only apply the Spellthief levels to each class individually, but not have them stack together.

Well Master Spellthief as worded lets you determine your caster level by stacking all your arcane spellcaster levels with your spell level. Which means at the very least your caster level is always going to be equal to your hit die. The only ambiguity is whether it means caster levels or class levels. If it's interpreted as "caster level" then you can gain an arcane caster level higher than your hit die because UM gives you 2 caster levels per class level. If it's interpreted as class level then you'll just get a caster level higher equal to your class levels and therefore equal to your hit die.


@Rejusu: You need a meta-magic feat to enter UM, that's the only reason I take one that early. Its not because I really like them its because I need it before level 6.

My mistake, I missed the feat requirement for UM.


I'd disagree with apprentice feats being worth less. They allow for you to gain skills as class skills and Mentor as a feat is just leadership with a different name which is a good feat. Though they may have not been the best design I like them and the DM sounded interested as they would force me to interact with the world around me.



Apprentice/Mentor:
"An apprentice is similar to a cohort, except that the apprentice doesn’t accompany the mentor on adventures as a standard rule. A new apprentice is always a 1st-level character."

You get a 1st level apprentice who doesn't go on adventures with you, which means he's either going to stay 1st level for quite a long time, or he's going to go on his own adventures and maybe ask you to come help him every now and then. Mentor is not Leadership Lite, it's a waste of two feats.

If the above is true then I really wouldn't bother with Mentor from an optimisation standpoint. It has nice flavour to it, but it shouldn't be a feat. Dropping it from your build would allow you to reorganise your feats into a more beneficial order.


Also the spellthief ability allows me to steal willing NPC's spells and make scrolls of them to add to my spellbook later. This could be very powerful. Though it may cost about the same as reading it out of a spellbook it may at the same time not. Plus it allows me to RP a guy who just wants to consume knowledge.

I think that if your DM is sensible he'd have the NPC charge you the same amount as if you were to just read it out of his spellbook. Again it's optimisation vs flavour. From a CO standpoint the only reason to go into spellthief is for master spellthief as the steal spell ability is basically useless unless you build around being able to pull it off.

As I said before I think you're best off thinking about which aspects of this character you like the most and focus on that. I still think that if you're more interested in Leadership then Thrallherd is probably a better choice.