Clericzilla - best spells with limited options?

[Josiah30]

Hi all. I'm currently working on optimizing my clericzilla build, and am curious what you all think the best spells available are from the books my DM has allowed.

The books we have allowed are:
PHB
Complete Divine
Complete Arcane
Complete Warrior
Book of Exalted Deeds
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Complete Psionic

What I'm looking for are ways to improve my armor class other than Shield of Faith (which has been allowed as a persistent spell) and Magic Vestment.

I'm hoping to persist Divine Power, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (spell compendium errata'd version) and Visage of the Deity, Greater. However, this leaves me unable to persist anything else except by through the usage of the metamagic feat itself, which I'm fine with.

I need to improve those two areas because the DM has been downright stingy with magic items and treasure. My best item is a +5 light fortification full plate. After that, it's probably the +6 wisdom periapt and +2 spell storing mace. Not exactly top notch equipment. I don't even have a cloak of resistance.

So, are there any good options to increase (non-deflection) AC and Saves that can be persisted?

[hymer]

Why +5 on the full plate when you have magic vestment?

[Josiah30]

The plate was given to me as a quest reward, not purchased (my character has never had more than 5000gp at once). Magic Vestment is for my non-magical shield.

I suppose I could sell the armor and get something else, though.

[Snowbluff]

Spell Compendium has Holy Transformation. +4 Str (Sacred) is always nice.

[Josiah30]

Spell Compendium has Holy Transformation. +4 Str (Sacred) is always nice.

Spell compendium is only used to check for errata on spells. The spells available are only those in the books listed above.

[Snowbluff]

Spell compendium is only used to check for errata on spells. The spells available are only those in the books listed above.

Wow that's harsh. Though I knew you guys had one. Your DM must be a jerk. Greater Teleport at will would have been nice...

Divine Favor is better than most people think. Like Sacred bonuses, Luck is rather rare. It's a low level, so Persisting it with out DMM is okay.

[Douglas]

Recitation would be excellent (in Complete Divine, updated in Spell Compendium), but it's slightly too high level (4) to Persist without DMM or other reductions.

What's the calculation on your uses of DMM (I assume that's how you're Persisting a 4th, 5th, and 9th level spell)? Depending on the details, we might be able to squeeze out one more use. Include the breakdown of bonuses to your charisma score so we can tell what would be redundant there. Is there any flexibility in your build beyond spell selection? This is clearly an existing character, not a newly built one that hasn't entered play yet, but there are retraining/rebuilding options your DM might allow.

Let's see, limiting to those sources...
Elation (BoED) boosts AC and reflex by 1 indirectly by boosting dexterity. Unusual bonus type so it'll probably stack, and also has other benefits and boosts the whole party.
Protection From <alignment> or Magic Circle Against <alignment> would get you +2 resistance on saves against creatures of the specified alignment.

Not having Spell Compendium available as an original source, rather than just for updates, cuts the list down a bit. In particular, Spell Compendium would bring Superior Resistance (+6 resistance to saves for 24 hours, metamagic not required, first published in Savage Species) to the table. There aren't very many defensive stat-boosting cleric spells that low level in your source list.

You can get all-day healing, though - Vigor and its variations are in Complete Divine. Mass Lesser Vigor would get fast healing 1 all day for the whole party for a 9th level slot.

[Josiah30]

I have a charisma of 8 currently, with the Extra Turning feat selected three times, so I have a total of 14 turning attempts. I have no items for magical enhancement of my charisma. I can use my buddy the psion's Psychic Reformation ability to reset all of my feats and domain selections at any point, as he's very giving with his XP. Mostly because I've had to use three 5000xp Miracles in the game so far, as well as some for crafting wondrous items for other characters. My race is human. Current feats are:
Extra turning (1)
Extend Spell (1)
Extra Turning (3)
Extra Turning (6)
Persist Spell (9)
DMM: Persist (12)
Quicken Spell (15)
Power Attack (18)

My current domains are Strength, Protection, Glory, and Purification.
My level breakdown is 7 Cleric, 10 Radiant Servant (of Seker, a custom god in the DM's cosmology), and 2 Contemplative.

Here are my current spell selections for persisting or otherwise having a duration > 24 hours (keep in mind we allow Touch as we consider it "fixed" range, even if Wizards disagrees):

Daily:
DMM: Persist Visage of the Deity, Greater
Extend Magic Weapon, Greater
Extend Magic Vestment
Extend Wind Walk (surprising useful)

Every other day (a is odd days, b is even):
Extend Mind Blank (a)
Extend, Persist Divine Favor (a)
DMM: Persist, Extend Divine Power (a)
Extend, Persist Elation (b)
Extend, Persist Shield of Faith (b)
DMM: Persist Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (b)

[dextercorvia]

What about DMM Persisting a Greater Visage of the Deity? On top of all the other goodies, it increases your Cha, which can help with the Turn attempts. The update in SpC doesn't call the bonus to Cha an enhancement bonus. You could still benefit from a +6 Cha item.

[Josiah30]

What about DMM Persisting a Greater Visage of the Deity? On top of all the other goodies, it increases your Cha, which can help with the Turn attempts. The update in SpC doesn't call the bonus to Cha an enhancement bonus. You could still benefit from a +6 Cha item.

That's already in the plans, though the two extra turning attempts don't do me any good as of now. If I take DMM: Extend, though, I can then extend the Visage and get Holy Aura in there as well, which will give me that +4 to Resistance for saves.

[Douglas]

If you're willing to swap out a feat for that, put it into another Extra Turning instead. Add GVotD's +4 charisma and a simple level 2 Eagle's Splendor, and you'll have another 8 turn attempts which is enough for a full extra Persist each day. With tacking on Extend as you're doing with your other below-9th Persistent Spells, that would let you add two additional high level Persistent buffs. I'd say go for Holy Aura and Recitation.

[Josiah30]

If you're willing to swap out a feat for that, put it into another Extra Turning instead. Add GVotD's +4 charisma and a simple level 2 Eagle's Splendor, and you'll have another 8 turn attempts which is enough for a full extra Persist each day. With tacking on Extend as you're doing with your other below-9th Persistent Spells, that would let you add two additional high level Persistent buffs. I'd say go for Holy Aura and Recitation.


I have recitation as a 3rd level spell with the Purification domain. I have it slotted twice as a quickened spell as it is now, which is obviously not quite as good as persistent, but having quicken also gives me some options when someone disjoins me. So, in summary, losing Quicken spell isn't an option.

The question is, then, is it worth giving up Power Attack for Holy Aura? I want to keep Power Attack if at all possible for when I miracle my way into a Giant Size and it's +32 strength. However, dumping it is still an option if increasing my saves becomes important enough.

Also, Eagle's Splendor, persist either costs me a 9th every other day or an 8th every day. It's probably worth it, but that's a hard price to pay for +4 Cha.

[Maryring]

Eagle's splendour doesn't stack with Cloak of Charisma. Something to keep in mind in case you get one. So yeah, don't worry overmuch about Eagle's Splendour as it is. Otherwise you'd essentially be burning six turn attempts to get another two on that day from what I can see.

[Douglas]

Also, Eagle's Splendor, persist either costs me a 9th every other day or an 8th every day. It's probably worth it, but that's a hard price to pay for +4 Cha.
You don't need to Persist it, just cast it normally without metamagic. It only needs to last long enough for you to cast all your DMM spells.

[Josiah30]

You don't need to Persist it, just cast it normally without metamagic. It only needs to last long enough for you to cast all your DMM spells.

Can you do that? I was under the impression that "per day" meant that you had to have it for at least 24hrs ahead of time, much like owl's wisdom doesn't grant bonus spells, but a periapt of wisdom does.

[Douglas]

Yes, you can. Very very few things in D&D care about an ability score's value at any time other than the current moment. If you have 3+charisma bonus uses per day and your charisma bonus is +5, then you have 8 uses per day. Whether your charisma bonus was only +3 a minute ago and whether it will drop to +3 in 5 minutes are both completely irrelevant, all that matters is what your charisma bonus is at the time you use the ability.

This is clarified in the official FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a). The basic idea is that you should really be tracking uses expended, not uses remaining; uses expended is allowed to be higher than uses per day, provided that this happens because uses per day decreased after the uses were expended.

The relevant question and answer:
When a cleric has a temporary bonus to his Charisma
score, does it affect his turning check or turning damage?
Does it change the number of times he can turn or rebuke
per day?
Unless otherwise stated, a temporary bonus to an ability
score has the same effect as a permanent one. For example, a
cleric with a temporary +4 enhancement bonus to Charisma
(such as from eagle’s splendor) adds 2 to his turning check and
to his turning damage while the spell was in effect, since his
Charisma modifier is 2 points higher than it was before.
Things get a little stickier when talking about powers with
daily limits, such as turn/rebuke undead or lay on hands. (Hold
on, because this gets worse before it gets better.) In this case, a
change to the key ability score indeed affects the daily limit—
in the example above, the cleric would gain 2 additional
turn/rebuke attempts per day—but these aren’t just “free” uses.
Here’s why:
Assume the cleric above has a normal Charisma score of
12, granting him 4 turn attempts per day (3 + 1 for Cha bonus).
Casting eagle’s splendor increases his Charisma to 16, which
would grant 6 attempts per day. At the end of the spell,
however, his daily limit would drop back down to 4 attempts.
At that point, the player must compare the number of daily uses
expended to the daily limit to see if any still remain.
Here’s how that might work in play. Our cleric turns
undead twice, then casts eagle’s splendor right before a big
fight with a horde of zombies. During the duration of the spell,
he makes four more turning checks. When the spell ends, he
compares his new daily limit (4) to the number of attempts used
(6)—whoops, no turns left. Hope all the undead have been
destroyed, because even if the cleric cast eagle’s splendor
again, he wouldn’t have any more turning attempts available,
since he’s already used all 6 of his allotted attempts. If he could
increase his Charisma to 18, he’d “gain” one more turning
attempt (since he has now used 6 out of his allotted 7 daily
attempts), usable only during the duration of the Charismaboosting
effect.
The same is true of the paladin’s lay on hands ability. If the
paladin gains a temporary Charisma boost, her total capacity of
healing via lay on hands improves accordingly, but she must
keep track of the healing “used up” to see if any remains after
the boost ends.
Temporary ability reductions (such as penalties or damage)
work similarly. When applying a reduction, do the math as if a
bonus had just elapsed to see if any daily uses are left, and
reverse that when the reduction goes away to see what (if
anything) the character regains. If our cleric is hit by touch of
idiocy and suffers a –4 penalty to Charisma, his daily limit of
turning attempts is reduced from 4 to 2; if he’s already used 2
or more, he has none available as long as the spell’s effect lasts.
This seems more complicated than it actually is. As long as
you remember that the important number to track is not uses
remaining, but uses expended, everything else should fall into
place.

[Josiah30]

Wow! That's super useful to know.

Let me ask your opinion, then: is it worth giving up Power Attack to get Holy Aura + some other persistent spell? Maybe Righteous Might? I'm loathe to give up that much of my damage dealing potential, but the defensive boosts could be absolutely worth it.

What do you think?

[Josiah30]

I've got it! At 20th I'll take a level of Heirophant for the bonus MM feat, make it quicken spell, then Psychic Reformation to get power attack and extra turning at the lower levels, and still have quicken.

It'll take me one more level, but at that point I'll have three uses of DMM: Persist per day.

Thanks for all your help douglas!