DM Question on the Limits of Wish and Demi Plane Creation.

[Caedes]

I am DMing a game that has gone into Epic levels. And as such, I like my players being powerful and feeling like they are special. (Especially since I teach them that epic means I get to kill them in more fantastic ways.)

Anyway I have a player that wants to create his own Demi Plane using wish to *mimic* Genesis. (He does not want to spend the time or wait on the time to let it grow out.)

Now Genesis is a 9th level spell which puts it out of the running for wish fodder right away.

But I told him if he wants to leave it to the chance I might blow it up in his face he could right up what he likes and I would make the decision.

This is what he sent me.

"I wish to duplicate the Genesis spell in exactly all effects as it applies to the creation of the plane and casting of the spell except wherein it applies to the casting time and growth rate of the demiplane to be created; The casting time shall be reduced from 7 days (1 week) to 7 rounds and it will grow at a rate 10x the rate of the Genesis spell, at a rate of 10 feet per day, starting with 10 feet, until it reaches the size as indicated by the Genesis spell, 180ft."

So the question is. Do I just nerf his request to something a fraction of the lvl 9 Genesis Spell or Tell him the spell fizzles and he should either cast Genesis or Make an Epic level spell to achieve his goals.

I know I could do something horrible with his efforts but cannot think of anything that is not to "mean."

Any insight from this wonderful community is welcome!

Thank you!

Caedes Caelestio

[Douglas]

Tell the player "Congratulations, your spellbook has a new spell in it. It's called Improved Genesis, and it's level 10. Hope you took Improved Spell Capacity."

[Mystify]

Have it keep expanding, and in doing so lose physical cohesion. The existing matter is stretched thin, initially becoming fragile. The atmosphere likewise thins. Eventually the matter is too weak to withstand contact, and disintegrates on touch. It later fades into nothing. The end result is an ever-expanding bubble of nothing.

Its not as mean as it fizzling, because an ever expanding bubble of nothing can be very useful if you are creative enough.

[Othesemo]

Hang on- he wants to replicate a spell that already is too good for wish, and then make it better? This seems like an ideal opportunity to do something hilarious. Perhaps altering the demiplane's content (for example, if he wants a pleasant, idyllic plane, you could make it a plane of 24/7 Heavy Metal/Torture), or allowing him to create the plane but giving him the wrong planar coordinates. You can have fun without being 'mean.'

[Caedes]

Have it keep expanding, and in doing so lose physical cohesion. The existing matter is stretched thin, initially becoming fragile. The atmosphere likewise thins. Eventually the matter is too weak to withstand contact, and disintegrates on touch. It later fades into nothing. The end result is an ever-expanding bubble of nothing.

Its not as mean as it fizzling, because an ever expanding bubble of nothing can be very useful if you are creative enough.

I love this!

Thank you all for the input. He is one of my most devious players. Ironic since he is nearly lawful good.

*grin*

[Lord Vampyre]

To be mean, I would have the plane expand beyond the limits of the spell, draining him of almost all of his magic (possibly letting him have his 1st to 3rd level spells). Suddenly he finds himself in a foreign land almost powerless. Now, he has to go on a quest to find his lost power.

Justification: Wish was unable to truly harness the power of Genesis Plus with his insistence of speeding up the creation process, the spell pulled energy from the nearest magical source and is using that to fuel the new realm. Once he finds his lost power, he is now left with the dilemma of how to take them back without everything crashing in on him.

Assuming he succeeds, the realm becomes exactly what he was originally aiming for. If he fails, well he won't have to worry about it.

[Mystify]

To be mean, I would have the plane expand beyond the limits of the spell, draining him of almost all of his magic (possibly letting him have his 1st to 3rd level spells). Suddenly he finds himself in a foreign land almost powerless. Now, he has to go on a quest to find his lost power.

Justification: Wish was unable to truly harness the power of Genesis Plus with his insistence of speeding up the creation process, the spell pulled energy from the nearest magical source and is using that to fuel the new realm. Once he finds his lost power, he is now left with the dilemma of how to take them back without everything crashing in on him.

Assuming he succeeds, the realm becomes exactly what he was originally aiming for. If he fails, well he won't have to worry about it.
Good one. though you have to be careful that this doesn't exclude the rest of the party, or it will be a very boring session for them.

[Flickerdart]

Actually, the casting time for Wish is 1 standard action, regardless of what spell it's copying. So that part's fine.

After that however...things start getting dicey, because Genesis is explicitly out of line with the effects of Wish. My suggestion is this: Wish magic takes the path of least resistance, Instead of creating a demiplane from scratch, it just cuts a chunk out of the most easily available planar matter and slaps it into place. And what's more easily available than the boundless Abyss? Now the PC must undo his own spell before it extends to 180ft and becomes large enough to release a titanic demon from his abyssal prison.

[Lord Vampyre]

Good one. though you have to be careful that this doesn't exclude the rest of the party, or it will be a very boring session for them.

This would kind of depend on where the rest of the party was when he chose to cast the spell. If they are nearby, the magic drain could effect all of the other spellcasters and magic items. If they are not around, then it would probably be wise to use it as a mini solo adventure.

Alternatively, you could have it pull them in, due to their close association with the wizard. However, that might be stretching it a little thin.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Would it be better to have the wish spell, think he casted genesis and gives him the location of a demi-plane. Then make them fight over it when the true owners turn up.

[Douglas]

Given that he's casting the Wish himself (and presumably paying the XP for it), I say the effect should be beneficial and work towards his intended goal with no severe drawback - malicious misinterpretation should be reserved for Wishes granted by malicious beings. Thus, I went with granting exactly what he wants by an indirect route (which is also a deliberate misinterpretation of his wording) that will take additional time and resources to finish.

He Wished to duplicate the spell Genesis with some modifications. He did not Wish to duplicate the effects of the Genesis spell. Thus, he duplicates (with modification) the spell - the arcane writings in his spellbook. If he has Improved Spell Capacity, then he can go ahead and spend a 10th level slot and some XP to cast it and get his quickly-made demiplane. If not, he'll have to go and get Improved Spell Capacity first, whether through Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm), duplicating Psychic Reformation with (Limited) Wish, retraining, or just plain old leveling up.

[Hirax]

Protomatter is never described, only mentioned in genesis, but I interpret it as the building block for matter. Presumably it is useless, until somehow magically aggregated into matter via genesis. I would have the spell successfully create/reserve the vacuum that the demiplane occupies by manipulating ethereal vapors properly, so that half of the spell works, and you can plane shift to the plane like anywhere else. But I would stipulate that there was a failure to spark the protomatter into substance, essentially giving them a plane filled with swirling mists of protomatter, whatever that may be. So the failure of half the spell isn't necessarily malicious on the part of the deity that fulfilled the request, the failure is just a consequence of trying to bite off more than can be chewed.

If desired, to prevent them from bringing in foundation materials to make use of their plane, you could make the plane a dead magic zone, and require anything brought into the plane make fortitude saves or gradually decay to protomatter. Anything attended by a person uses that person's save. If you fail 3 saves (one upon entry, then hourly thereafter) without being helped by a greater restoration spell or similar, you and your possessions moulder to protomatter. The failures need not be consecutive, and perhaps give them penalties on future saves if they haven't cured the effects of a previous failure. This would make constructing anything there futile, as objects have pathetic fortitude saves, and magic doesn't work there, so no planar bubbles. If you want them to be able to use the plane at some point, you can refine these restrictions and/or give them a Macguffin to obviate them. Perhaps even let a second casting of wish 'complete' the plane, though you could also say that this is impossible because magic is dead in the plane, and somehow interferes with the wish.

[Techsmart]

On the same route that someone else was saying, you could instead make the wish spell hijack another spellcaster's casting of it. Yes, he would cast the spell in less time, but that's because he's pulling a spell that's already in progress, and just adding a little extra magic to it.

Another alternative is that he perfectly replicates the effects of genesis. However, the demi-plane is unstable, making it only stay in effect for a pre-determined period of time. The player would get exactly what they want, but the only way to keep it is to keep casting it.

As someone else said, malicious wishes should be saved for malicious gods. I would say do what the pc's deity would probably do.

[Flickerdart]

That would work too. Once it hits 180ft, the Wish spell decides it's done and leaves, deleting the plane.

[FearlessGnome]

Too powerful an effect for Wish. It will either be Incomplete or fulfilled in an unsatisfactory manner. Give him his demiplane - seemingly exactly as he wants it, but with one little tiny change: Time flows slower on the demi plane. For every round spent inside, an hour passes by outside. This is still a useful place to have access to, but he tried to lawyer his way past the power level of wish. If time was an important factor for him - important enough that he wanted to improve upon the original Genesis spell - then hit him where it hurts. He wants to fiddle with time: Time fiddles with him.

This will likely only matter the first time he goes there - since he will never return when he is in a hurry - but it has a chance of costing him dearly the first time he goes there.

[erikun]

I know I could do something horrible with his efforts but cannot think of anything that is not to "mean."
Attempting to overextend the effects of Wish, especially when the DM has already told you that it cannot be done, leads to bad consequences.

I would just give him his demiplane, except that rather than Wish creating it, the spell instead linked the character to an existing demiplane. Namely, one that likely already has stuff and residents on it.

If he brings up the obvious question, point out that the spell couldn't replicate Genesis, and so did what it could do to get the character the plane they wanted.

[/did not read through the thread]

[GreenSerpent]

My personal favourite idea...

He wants it to be built 10 times faster, right?

In the demiplane, objects and people age many times faster as well - but the length of time that passes stays the same. Spend too long in there and you'll age a great deal.

So lets see. The casting time is 7*8 hours - 56 hours. He wants to reduce that to 7 rounds.

That works out at a 28800 times increase in speed. So, in his demiplane stuff ages at that rate... but the same time passes... so spend a day there, you'd be 79 years older when you came out.

[FearlessGnome]

My personal favourite idea...

He wants it to be built 10 times faster, right?

In the demiplane, objects and people age many times faster as well - but the length of time that passes stays the same. Spend too long in there and you'll age a great deal.

So lets see. The casting time is 7*8 hours - 56 hours. He wants to reduce that to 7 rounds.

That works out at a 28800 times increase in speed. So, in his demiplane stuff ages at that rate... but the same time passes... so spend a day there, you'd be 79 years older when you came out.This one wins for hilarity. Unfortunately, if your player is anything like most players, he will just turn it into a weapon. Throw foe in -> foe dies of old age -> Foe can't be raised. it may shave a few decades off his life before he realizes what he has, but that's a small price to pay for such a weapon.

Also, expect him to start breeding dragons.

[GreenSerpent]

This one wins for hilarity. Unfortunately, if your player is anything like most players, he will just turn it into a weapon. Throw foe in -> foe dies of old age -> Foe can't be raised. it may shave a few decades off his life before he realizes what he has, but that's a small price to pay for such a weapon.

Also, expect him to start breeding dragons.

But to be TRULY evil...

I quote from Bleach (I watch it occasionally):

"Did you HONESTLY think energy could not be aged?" - Barragan Luisenbarm using his powers of aging to age an energy field trapping him into nothingness.

e.g. The magic holding the demiplane together also begins to age. Worse, perhaps the plane becomes sentient through living for aeons... all he's done is create a Genius Loci. And that would be very bad.

In addition, there's one small problem with his dragon-breeding... they have the body of a Great Wyrm, but the mind of a Wyrmling. Major problem for him.

EDIT: And obviously he won't get the benefits from the aging.

[Caedes]

These are all fantastic responses and wonderful input!

I think I will do a combination of extremely fast time and the plane becoming unstable through it's eventual massive age.

He will find things he built during one trip to the plane be old and crumbling apart his next trip...

That away he can try to build up in it and have some fun with it as well. Then it all goes to pot.

He just sent me a request to use another wish to slow down the time in it even more... So I will use that to further compound the rapid aging and eventual destruction of the demi plane. He might just find himself a very old elf by the time he is done... But he is very smart, so I am sure he will think of something.

Maybe...

Thank you all again!

[navar100]

A player casting Wish does not give the DM permission to screw over the character. The campaign is Epic, and you already admitted you want the party to be epic powerful. The player is following that guideline. Be the DM not Maquis de Sade.

Tell the player that despite the campaign being Epic Power you still need to define some limits. What he wants to Wish just can't happen. However, upon casting said Wish, the character instead learns the existence of an Epic Spell that can do what he wants. Further research, such as casting Vision, gleams more info about it, such as where he can learn it and what obstacles are in the way from doing so. Ta da! Plot hook with a valuable treasure upon completion! If he doesn't have Epic Spellcasting feat now he should when getting his next feat as he levels upon this adventure. "Coincidentally", the adventure engages the interests of the other player characters' goals.

[Mystify]

A player casting Wish does not give the DM permission to screw over the character.
But a character casting wish outside of its stated bounds does.
"You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment..."
It doesn't say "Asking for a wish from somebody else is dangerous", though in that case the entity granting it could screw you over with it anyways. The potential for horrible consequences is one of the limiting factors on wish. It does not go away just because you are casting it personally.

[ahenobarbi]

But I told him if he wants to leave it to the chance I might blow it up in his face he could right up what he likes and I would make the decision.


A player casting Wish does not give the DM permission to screw over the character.


Even wish, however, has its limits.
A wish can (...)
Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower (...)
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Player knows it's dangerous and DM warned player, player still wants to try. So yes, player gives DM permission to screw over character.



"I wish to duplicate the Genesis spell in exactly all effects as it applies to the creation of the plane and casting of the spell except wherein it applies to the casting time and growth rate of the demiplane to be created; The casting time shall be reduced from 7 days (1 week) to 7 rounds and it will grow at a rate 10x the rate of the Genesis spell, at a rate of 10 feet per day, starting with 10 feet, until it reaches the size as indicated by the Genesis spell, 180ft."

Idea of fast-aging is nice. You could go with "partial". For example create plane with desired traits, only as small as time given by player allows... or plane with chosen traits and just enough space to put 180 feet (elven?) in it.

[Rubik]

A psionic manifester with the psionic version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/genesis.htm) only has to spend 1,000 xp, and if he has a ML of 18 or above, he can manifest it fully within 1 round with the Linked Power feat. The only real difference is that he wants his plane to grow faster. It's not really a huge thing, IMO, and he's spending 5x the xp that a manifester does for the same basic effect, so I wouldn't make the downsides particularly horrible.

Noteworthy, yes, but not terrible. They might even be useful, under the right circumstances.

[GreenSerpent]

My second idea was to have the fast aging, but that affects the landscape as well.

What happens when the landscape becomes sentient?

Genius Loci. Oh man. You are in some deep trouble there.