Requesting help w/ Undead Host Construction and etc.

[Red_Dog]

Hello all. Its been awhile since I have needed some help. However I have a big session coming up in my campaign and I hope I can get some input on what is better to use ^^

Anyways, without introducing a lot of backstory/etc. =>

I need to create an Undead Army lead by a Sorcerer Lich(CL20 as far as I remember). The Lich uses a variety of illusion/shadow magic and power words. The choice is based on fluff of a character which I won't get into. Lets just say that exile and Lichdom was his only option for staying "alive" long enough to get revenge on people who overturned his father's kingdom and tried to kill him and his father.

Anyways, Lich resides in Abandoned/forbidden Onyx mines. From which he is been trying to spy on "his" empire and making pot shots at the mining town next to his location.

Questions=>

I realize that a Sorc Lich is not the most optimal choice for a Leader of Necromantic Army. However, he is a Sorc Lich for fluff reasons, so that's not debatable. However I do need him to be able to create an army of Undead so the players would have something to either use as an ally or fight as an enemy .

He already does posses 2 squads of Ghast/Scouts lead by 2 Ghast/Lurks (psychic component is part of the fluff, in short they are psychicly gifted kids that escape the empire "psychic training program" and turned into ghouls by living waaay to long in the sewer system and feeding on humans/etc.) I am also exploring ghoul aspect so I won't need help there.

I do need help with the Main bulk of the army. Because he is only one Lich, he can't mass create zombie hordes as it not only requires resources but also has a cap on control. While he can create an army of zombies, he can not control it. So it leaves me with Intelligent undead.

What intelligent Undead are best here can I use to the best effect and what can I make en mass? I was thinking of making a [B]"Ghost Host". Basically using Create Greater Undead to Make Wraiths and use them as a main army. He lives in an Onyx mine, so Onyx supply is well everywhere. I do however want to re-stat[select different feats from Libris Mortis for example and etc. and may be bump up the HD to 7 or 8].

I would also make the mechanic work so he needs a dead intact body to raise using this spell. This creates a job for his scout ghouls tha will essentially gather corpses to turn into wraiths.

But what else can do? How can I improve the wraith, or perhaps I should use other Incorporeals/Creatures? Maybe I should use Wraith Template from the Savage Species? Maybe Use Evolved Undead template in Libris Mortis?
[I]*An average "lvl" for citizens is 8 but I try to ignore CR and use "how adequate is this encounter/army" method instead.*

I was looking over other books [Expanded Psionic's Handbook, Libris Mortis] and saw bunch of other cool ideas but not sure on how to implement them. For example Caller in Darkness and Dream Vestige look like awesome "terror units" that would be "unleashed as a first wave of the army". But how can NPC (that plays by a lot of "PC rules") would make these?

What other Support creatures can I use? I was thinking making "Hooded pupils" from kidnapped/persuaded Archivists of the Empire. However willing conversion would be difficult... Archivists will be able to learn spells needed from the Lich... but still as I've said... the conversion is unlikely.
*Edit, I looked at Quell, it seemed like a cool creature, however I have no clue of how to create them? Or would it even be a good idea. It would definitely appeal to my Ur-Priest Player... Also the empire is heavily thechno and theocratic so they could help silence some of the archivists*

So what do you guys think? Is Ghost Host is an adequate army concept? Anyways I hope I can get some input ^^

Thanks in advance everyone!! ^^

[JeminiZero]

Regarding the army: For these situations I like mass long-term summons like Shambler (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shambler.htm) and Otyugh swarm (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-divine--56/otyugh-swarm--649/). They are not on the Sorc spell list, but maybe your Sorc can access them via Extra Spell Known. Otyugh is more thematically appropriate for the Lich, but Shambler can be massively augmented through lightning traps.

Basically create an Energy Transformation Field (http://dndtools.eu/spells/magic-of-faerun--20/energy-transformation-field--1756/) linked to either of the above, and then pump it full of spell power.

E.g. if the Lich buys a massive stack of Eternal Wands level 1, he can spam them all day, every day to build a massive army. 9 eternal wands costs 4140 gp, and gets you 2 castings each day (or a total of ~4 huge otyughs), each casting lasting 7 days (so ~28 would be around at any one time, as the new ones come in and the old castings expire).

Also as a high Cha Lich, he can bargain with evil outsiders following the steps here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135096).

[Red_Dog]

=>JeminiZero

Thanks man! ^^ I don't think that the Otyugh swarms or mass Shambler mounds is something I would go with, however nice idea ^^

As far as bargaining with outsiders... In the campaign world it can easily be done, however using other planes tend to spread as "gossip/intelligence". As in, if a big contract is struck with a powerful devil, or similar thing happened, this news spreads quickly... and the empire also uses different planes for both monitoring this kind of activity and to get stuff themselves. So it becomes a double edged sword. When he is ready to begin invasion, than yeah that can definitely be implemented ^^

Thanks for input, and especially link as I will most likely use this for other factions ^^

Also I have read a link in you signature, that's a pretty cool idea for illithid faction ^^

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Ok as I am reading further, I encounter an issue. If I make the troops be primarily composed of Wraiths... I encounter an issue of not being able to kill people fast enough...

A 9HD Wraith is a fantastic encounter as it has 4 feats, 2 bonus feats (that includes Improved Initiative!), +4 Int/Wiz/Cha, +6 Dex and ability to dump 2(!) lowest scores rolled [i roll for NPC stats]. With all this, it can become a fantastic combatant... However killing things in a "quick fashion" is not its virtue...

Compared with a main staple of empire's forces "The Hand of Zarus" [5fighter/3Occult Slayer], which has 3 ranged attacks (+8 BAB & rappid shot with a quickloading light crossbows), while using "share target" tactics [2-5 soldiers focus on one target] it can take down 50-100 HP targets in a turn or two... If target is flat footed, so much better as per the Hit and Run tactics. With a Wizard leading the squad, it becomes clear why empire is an incredibly competent opponent.

So what can I do to make my "Ghost Host" at least try to measure up to that kind of force? (I try to make each army in the campaign to be competent enough to hold a skirmish against Imperial forces... not an open war but a skirmish at least...)

I was thinking Ghostly Grasp, but that is rather pointless because a weapon that would channel the ability drain/dmg thru itself is a wooping +3 and equipping a legion with these is beyond the power and mostly equipment of this Lich...

So... Suggestions for a good Incorporeal Creature build? A 9HD Wraith is a likely Equivalent I am shooting for.... All help is welcomed including additional creatures (I gave quell quite some though, they will MOST likely make the cut and be "officers/adviser/specialists") ^^

[Coidzor]

I see a distinct lack of Animate Dread Warrior from Unapproachable East in here.

Mohrgs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mohrg.htm) and Entombers can be used to create a limitless number of zombie shamblers, IIRC. There's a number of ways a BBEG would have to get those working for him including Leadership for a Rebuking daisy-chain of rebukers controlling spawners

[Averis Vol]

fel animated fireball can get you some cannon fodder. put on lord of the utter cold to not have crispy zombies.

i'm also going to second Coidzor, dread warriors are amazing servants. if you take leadership you can get some followers, off them and make them into your dread warriors.

[Coidzor]

Also, since he's already a Lich, look into Spellstitching for spells like animate dead, awaken undead, and animate dread warrior. A spell-stitched familiar if he has a familiar would also be handy.

Getting a subordinate with 5 levels of dirgesinger (Libris Mortis 43(?)) can apparently be interesting (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3718.0), especially combined with revive undead.

Combine an incorporeal undead that makes spawn but leaves a body with animate dread warrior/animate dead/that dirgesinger trick and you can have some further fun.

[Red_Dog]

=>Coidzor

Unfortenatly in this campaign I use no materials from different settings (trying at least, not sure if something bleed thru monster manuals yet) such as ebberon, UE, Feurun and etc.

I use complete series some handbooks (planar, both player's) DMG, MiC, Vile darkness, [Though I do not use Vile dmg mechanics] MMs and 2 psionics as well as some web enchantments (mind's eye and such).

With this in mind, I never considered Mohrgs too seriously.... mainly because of how underpowered they seemed.... however Mohrg Phantom might make quite competent Lieutenant/Zombie hoarder. Their personality however still leaves something to work on... While this Lich definitively not above genocide and similar actions, he is not doing it for ****s'n'giggles... He has a serious grudge mixed with "daddy" issues mixed with power hunger.

In such, he wouldn't want to turn a population of his country into hordes of shambling corpses. Its actually why the Ghost host is a nice concept for him. Non mindless undead that can be reasoned with and potentially grateful for a lease on eternal life... and being freed from a tyrannical rule.


But more to mechanics... Is there a limit on Mohrgs "Create Spawn"? is it the same old "double the HDs creator"? I mean a single zombie is nothing however a Zombie Mob (using Cityscape rules)... or two controlled by a Phantom Mohrg can be incredibly entertaining...

Also on spell stitched... I looked into it... I do agree that its REALLY useful to have intelligent undead with just animate dead stitched into them... but the cost... 500XP per point of wizdom? I am assuming it starts at Wiz = 1? that's a lot of XP...7000 at least as far as I understand seems like using Wish to do this would run cheaper...

*Also the dirgesinger option is not applicable to this situation.... but there IS a bodak dirgesinger who might just use such a trick ^^ Thx man!*

Thx for imput overall man! ^^

=>Averis Vol
Uttercold trick is a cool way to heal undead en'mass and I am aware of it... not sure if I will implement it. The Lich himself is a Sorc/Dracolxi/Nightmare Spinner so it is not his style per say... but he is rather efficient.
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So further readings and comments (Thx guys!^^ keep 'em comming if you can! ^^) gave me this rough army structure draft =>

High Ranking
Some kind of Phantoms... I am not sure what kind, but the template seems to be a worth trying to explain. Besides Mhorg idea, I was thinking something that can create a lot of darkness... Perhaphs something psionic maybe a Ghoul 4HD + Ardent 4HD w/ phantom template? This can give a LOT of uses of simple power such as control light. Its also wicked cool looking => "a darkness descends upon the battlefied"...
This is needed mostly for the rest of the army...

Mid ranking
Ghoul Scout teams, potentially spreading Ghoul fever... though Lich explicitly does not like that and would rather use "Whight plague" instead and only as a distraction to shut down the city and draw enemy's attention away from his main plans.
Quell Advisers => One-Two of them to counter turning and such shenanigans as well as be the brains of the "squad" he is assign to. 9-10HD with potentially 3lvls of Ephemeral Exemplar thrown in...

Rank-n-File
9HD Shadows... This gives 4 feats, with Empowered ability dmg and MageSlayer already taking spots in line. Actually quite a few options, but Empowered Ability dmg is virtually the only spot that is 100% taken.d6*1.5 str dmg should be enough to kill semi-fast... Their only big problem is Int penalty and generally bad stat boosts... On the other hand thier ability dmg is not negotiable unlike the wriath's (which is why I decided on shades for now)

So far this is a battle plan... I am however unsure about it.... still no "heavy support" so to speak of besides potential psions... Though this should be quite terrifying army... at least it should look that way heh ^^

More help is welcomed! ^^ Thx in advance!! ^^

[Averis Vol]

What's the max CR your looking for here? there's a lot of cool incorporeal undead like the deathshrieker its CR 15 with a hefty will save or become practically paralyzed with fear. i can look up more but i'm not quite sure what's overkill or not.

[Coidzor]

But more to mechanics... Is there a limit on Mohrgs "Create Spawn"? is it the same old "double the HDs creator"? I mean a single zombie is nothing however a Zombie Mob (using Cityscape rules)... or two controlled by a Phantom Mohrg can be incredibly entertaining...

They don't have a mentioned cap at all, and there's no general rule covering spawner's limitations. So, fun times for mob template.


Also on spell stitched... I looked into it... I do agree that its REALLY useful to have intelligent undead with just animate dead stitched into them... but the cost... 500XP per point of wizdom? I am assuming it starts at Wiz = 1? that's a lot of XP...7000 at least as far as I understand seems like using Wish to do this would run cheaper...

It's a hefty investment, but take a number of expensive spells that you'll get a lot mileage from the spell-stitching. Most notably is that after a dozen or so castings of animate dread warrior, one is actually ahead on XP expenditures. Without animate dread warrior... Revive Undead and animate dead for things like zombie dragons/hydras are the most economical ones that come to mind.

[Red_Dog]

Coidzor =>


They don't have a mentioned cap at all, and there's no general rule covering spawner's limitations. So, fun times for mob template.

Interesting Indeed...

And on stitching without dread warrior... Animate dead stitched is cool... but probably better wished for. And I probably won't go for that as if the stitched creature is destroyed, that's a lot of wasted XP... and no hydras in wholesome quantities around to make into zombies...

Averis Vol =>

I guess I am currently looking for help with first setting up Rank-n-File 9HD shadow... I am not sure how to build it so it would fight well in packs of 20-ish...

Also looking for ideas on creatures that can make good phantoms? Or at least that can create massive amounts of Darkness... There is one AWESOME option (Shadow Landscape, a certain creature has it in an item form...), but that is for the plot to reveal... Otherwise how can I create a lot of darkness fast without Ardents?

For heavier creatures... I was looking over Dream Vestige and mainly not sure how would someone create it... Would make great heavy Support. So for heavier creatures CR11-12 ish is a good ball park. But as I've said I try not to fully rely on CR... I saw death Shrieker... I highly doubt it would be able to fit as its mostly a free roaming creature that forms after a battle... kind of like rage walker (that one is a fey I think)...

P.S. I saw in Create Greater Undead, that Specter is an option... but the fluff seems to indicate that such creature is not army material. It likes locations and overall might not want to co-operate with the creators...

[Averis Vol]

lots of darkness eh? my only thought is the shade template from races of faerun, but unfortunately you aren't using other sources so that's kind of kaput.

the only thing i can think of is giving spell stitched some wands of darkness. :smallfrown:

on the point of how to form them up it would be best to let them spread out. that way the leader wizard can't blast a group of them into smitherines. i'd say give them the element of surprise, they're incorporeal, have them fly in under ground and pop up right in the midst of the army. with them there that completely destroys their ranks and probably their moral. then have your heavy hitters charge in the front. basic guerilla warfare, get them by surprise, take out the big targets (any holy warriors in this case i guess) and retreat back into the ground, then just keep attacking from a different direction

[Red_Dog]

Averis Vol =>
Darkness is needed because Shades are powerless in daytime. Traveling during the day shouldn't be such an issue... but fighting is a whole different question.

Hmmm Unconventional Warfare you say eh? I though of approaching this way... but I guess a whole army just appearing in midst of yours could be an interesting strategy...
*As I am writing an interesting picture comes to mind => a "cascade deployment strategy" in which a leader "jumps out" first and creates darkness, followed by circular patterns of Shadows around him jumping out.. Hmm ^^*

Still I think some kind of ardent with Darkness and Light could be VERY interesting "platoon commander"... Just not sure what creature can be justifiably given few levels of ardent....

For a shadow... so far this is a load out I have =>

Feats: Empowered Ability Damage, Flyby Attack... Now the 2 remaining feats could be from the following list=> Ghostly Grasp[?do they really need it?], Mage Slayer, Dark Stalker, Improved Natural Attack[??? would it increase the Str dmg to d8?? than it would be a Yes I suppose.].
My current picks are Dark Stalker and Improved Natural Attack if it lets increase Str dmg.

Skills maxing Hide, spot & listen I guess. Or Just Spot & Listen[if no hide skill needed, do I even need Dark Stalker?] and cross classing use psionic device to get cheap "portable" source of darkness as say a dorjes would be. (The faction has "access" to psionic devices as "neighboring" drow tend to use them and make them.

So what do you guys think?
P.S. For Quell I was thinking giving them 1-2 lvls of marshal so they would put high charisma to use and gave large boosts to relevant needed skills.

Thx for input guys ^^

[Averis Vol]

directly from the SRD:

IMPROVED NATURAL ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

so yea, the str damage would get knocked up a category.

as for your bulk force it looks good. i wouldn't want to fight it. one thing though, if you can get them some form of turning resistance. im not sure if its possible and as im AFB right now ill check when i get home for a way to do it. (if the army has any heavy cha divine casters your ghosts could be in for some trouble)

[JeminiZero]

Also looking for ideas on creatures that can make good phantoms? Or at least that can create massive amounts of Darkness... There is one AWESOME option (Shadow Landscape, a certain creature has it in an item form...), but that is for the plot to reveal... Otherwise how can I create a lot of darkness fast without Ardents?

Use Warlocks. They can get an Invocation that casts Darkness at will. Darkness can be cast on items, and then distributed to the army, so that each creature moves around in its personal cloud of darkness.