Avernum: A Free Underworld.

[Darklady2831]

For those of you familiar with the "Avernum" series of games by Jeff Vogel of Spiderweb Software, you know what I'm talking about. But for those of you who don't know... let me shed some light on this truely awesome place...

http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h391/Mitchell_Walker/AvernumIntro1.png
http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h391/Mitchell_Walker/AvernumIntro2.png
http://i1107.photobucket.com/albums/h391/Mitchell_Walker/AvernumIntro3.png

So, as you've read... or experienced... This place, Avernum, is an underworld of danger, where every day is a fight for survival. I've decided to convert it to a D&D setting.


So, first off, some geography.

http://indierpgs.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/AvernumWorldMap.jpg
Unfortunately, this is the best map I could find. Underneath the "Underground Fort" map annotation, there is a coastal fort called "Fort Dranlon"

So, this map shows all of known Exile, the caves that Avernum calls home. The Kingdom of Avernum rules from Fort Draco in the far north, east to formello, down to the whole of the Eastern Gallery, down the caves to Mertis and the Tower of Magi, west from there to the whole of the Great Cave, north to Fort Emerald, and finally northwest to Fort Spire, the gateway to the Abyss.

The Abyss, is an Avernum within Avernum. It is where the truely dangerous are sent if they cannot fit into Mainstream Avernum life. It is a land ruled by criminals, fiercely independent. Spire in the South, and Bargha in the North. The two City-States have an intense rivalry, constantly fighting over the little viable farmland within the Abyss.

Past Fort Remote, in the southwest, are the Western Reaches. A wild, untamed mess of tunnels that go on for miles. There resides the Dragon, Sulfras the Mighty, a hidden route to the surface, the Pit Drake, and untold adventures and monsters.

In the Center of the Map, we see the Slith lands. These lakes and islands, controlled by the Amphibious and Savage Slithzerikai, led by Sss Thsss, son of Sss-Thoss. The lizard people of Central Avernum HATE the Avernites, and constantly fight them in an unceasing war. That is not to say that all Slith are evil. No, some of them are peaceful, they reside in three places. One group resides in Gnass, a Slith village in the Northern Great Cave. One group, resides in Lost Bahssikava, a small settlement to the north of Central Avernum. The third group, is a small village of Sliths that reside on the western edge of slith-controlled territory.

To the North, lie the Giant Lands and the Northern Waters. These lands are relatively untouched by Human hands, and controlled by the Giant Tribes, Araneas, and other dangerous and magical creatures. The Area is notorious for housing Two of the Five Dragons of Exile. Pyrog the Cruel, the malevolent tyrant of the eastern Giant Lands; and Khoth the Wise, the most scholarly of the five, and one of the most reclusive, in the west, in secret tunnels north of Barga.

To the southeast, lies the Honeycomb. This twisted labyrinth of tunnels is the home to Athron the Reclusive, Youngest of the Five Dragons of Exile. They are prone to Cavequakes and the natural magic of Avernum, making mapping them almost useless. The honeycomb shifts, it's caves and tunnels changing almost constantly. A map of the honeycomb is rarely useful for more than a few weeks before it becomes an unrecognizable mess again.

In the Northeast, in a cavern just off the road to Fort Draco, lies the cave of Motrax the Kind, oldest and friendliest of the Five Dragons of Exile. Motrax allows humans in his presence, and has even let them build a small outpost at the entrance to his lair.

To the Northwest, we see the Burning Reaches. Here is the prison of Grah-Hoth, the Demon-King who claims Avernum as his own. Imprisoned within Skraagath, he is powerless on his own. But he has many servants, being a Lord of the Infernal Realms has its advantages. Grah-Hoth is perhaps the most dangerous being in the underworld. Sss-Thsss, Chieftain of the Slith Hordes, worships him as a God. Indeed, there must be millions of Demons and other fiends at his command. Even the Mighty Haakai, the dukes of hell, fear and respect him. But not all is evil and terrible here. In the southern parts of the Burning Reaches, lies the Tower of Erika Redmark, one of the most powerful archmages in all of the Empire, cast down and cursed to never see the light of day, lest she burn.



That's all a lot to take in, isn't it? And none of this is to say that any part of Exile is "Safe" Not even the Great Cave or the Eastern Gallery are "Safe". Goblins, Nephilim, Slithzerikai, Ogres, Bandits, Gremlins, Giant Lizards, Giant Bats, Giant Rats, Demons, Drakes, Worgs, and more run amok even in the most secure of lands.

Races

Now I suppose I should tell you of the Nephilim, and the Slithzerikai...

The Nephilin are a feline race of humanoids that were hunted down by the empire on the surface. During their great genocides, Nephilim and Nepharim (Their bigger, stronger, sterile cousins) were hunted to near extinction, and the remainder fled below, into caves. These furred people are experts with the bow, and have great agility. They live in tribes led by the strong Nepharim, and counselled by the wise shamans.

The Slithzerikai have already had an introduction, but I'll tell you more. The Lizard-folk come from caves even deeper than Exile, a land they call Bahssikava. They were exiled from there, by their peaceful brethren because they worshipped Demons, and turned from the path of righteousness. The Darklings, as they would be known, were sent into Exile, and the way home sealed behind them until they could repent for their dark ways. Some of them did, and they became the peaceful Slithzerikai that live today in Gnass, Lost Bahssikava, and the nameless Slith Village. The ones who did not repent became the warmongering, demon worshipping tribes called the Darklings. These evil sliths wage unrelenting war on Avernum, and give blood sacrifices to their idols, the Demons. Lost Bahssikava is a holy site to the Sliths, it is where they left Bahssikava, and where they will return when they have been cleansed of their evil.

[Grinner]

Right. First, here's the Lizardfolk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lizardfolk.htm) stats and racial traits.

I'll go hunt down the Catfolk stats now. For the moment, here's a homebrew version (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Catfolk_%283.5e_Race%29).

Edit: Don't have Races of the Wild, but the Pathfinder OGC Wiki had this (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/catfolk).

Edit Edit: What about the Vanhatai? You may also want to limit or modify the prices of metallic weapons and armor.

Wait...The Vanhatai didn't show up till Avernum 2....

[Darklady2831]

I was planning to either use those races, and modify them slightly. OR, Homebrew them from Scratch.

And for weapons I was planning something like this

Stone Weapons: Regular Price, -1 to attack rolls and damage.
Bronze Weapons: 1.5x Price, no bonuses or penalties.
Steel Weapons: As Bronze, but Always Masterwork

EDIT: For those of you who haven't played the games, there is an infamous shortage of metal in Avernum, especially in the early days. To circumvent this, they used stone weapons (Not armor though), and what little metal they found was extremely valuable.

Now, I was also going to make several artifacts for this.

1. The Blessed Athame

A knife layered with many enchantments, the Blessed Athame is extremely durable, and sharper than any other knife. It is capable of cutting almost anything, from dragonscales, to the magical bottle prison of Grah-Hoth, the Demon Lord. The Blessed Athame was taken by the ill-fated First Expedition and lost somewhere in that cursed underworld.
2. The Orb of Thralni

A magical sphere that was created by the finest mages the Empire had to offer, the Orb of Thralni was the prized possession of Thralni, leader of the ill-fated First Expedition. The orb allowed Thralni to cause him and his companions to fly over short distances, an invaluable tool for exploration.
3. Demonslayer

Demonslayer is a greatsword of great renown. Weilded by Karzoth Demonslayer, one of the members of the ill-fated First Expedition. Demonslayer was unfortunately, broken, and its pieces have been lost to various denizens of the underworld. Though if it were to be reforged, the fabled blade would be a powerful tool indeed.
4. The Onyx Scepter

The Onyx Scepter's origin is unknown. It was undoubtedly created on the surface, and undoubtedly made its way to Exile. Whether it came with the First Expedition, or the Five when they were banished, is unknown. What is known is that it is a powerful rod of carved black stone and crystal. It is said to amplify the powers of the mage who wields it, and is especially useful when dealing with portals, which are unstable by nature. When the Onyx Scepter is near a portal, it calms it, and keeps it stable.

[Cieyrin]

I would 'brew your own versions of the Sliths and Nephilim, as well as the Vanhatai, as they may not have appeared in the first game but that doesn't mean they aren't out there. The d20 Lizardfolk are a pretty good starting place for the Sliths, though it lacks the Slith's Fire Resistance and emphasis on polearms. I don't find the Nephilim particularly charismatic, as they're fairly savage even after integrating with the human populations of Avernum. They're a more intuitive race and makes me think they should be +Dex +Wis. The Vanhatai seem like they should be a psionic race, which are actually rather like the Blue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/blue.htm), though obviously not of goblin stock.

Is that map from the most recent Avernum: Escape from the Pit or is that from Avernum, as it's definitely not from Exile.

I'd also increase the price of steel above that of bronze.

[Darklady2831]

That is the map from the newest game, Avernum: Escape from the Pit.
As for the Vanhatai, I agree with the psionic race bit. Their crystal magic meshes well with the psicrystal stuff in the EPH.

For Nephilim I agree as well. I was planning on using Catfolk as a baseline and tweaking it a bit. Nepharim would get +4 str and only +2 dex, as well as having a lower move speed.

Sliths would be lizard folk with fire resistance and cold vulnerability. They'd also have proficiency with a new exotic weapon, the slith two tined spear.


EDIT:

So, after some initial thoughts, I came up with some statistics for the four Artifacts. Note that after replaying some of Avernum 1 this morning, I got a lot more inspiration for a few other artifacts, but I want to iron out the details. (Hint, one of them is related to Drath)

1. The Blessed Athame

A knife layered with many enchantments, the Blessed Athame is extremely durable, and sharper than any other knife. It is capable of cutting almost anything, from dragonscales, to the magical bottle prison of Grah-Hoth, the Demon Lord. The Blessed Athame was taken by the ill-fated First Expedition and lost somewhere in that cursed underworld.

+3 Vorpal Dagger
-Wielder gains the Improved Sunder Feat.
-Counts as any material for the purpose of defeating Damage reduction.

2. The Orb of Thralni

A magical sphere that was created by the finest mages the Empire had to offer, the Orb of Thralni was the prized possession of Thralni, leader of the ill-fated First Expedition. The orb allowed Thralni and his companions to fly over short distances, an invaluable tool for exploration.

-Allows the wielder to cast "Wind Walk" at will. Up to 4 targets. Caster Level 20.
-The Wielder and his companions (Up to 4, including wielder) all gain Resist 10 Electricity while within 30 ft of the wielder of the orb. New Feature to make it feel more like an artifact
-The Wielder may cast the spell "Wind Wall" Twice per day as a 20th level sorceror. New Feature to make it feel more like an artifact
-The Wielder may cast the spell "Gust of Wind" twice per day as a 20th level Sorceror. New Feature to make it feel more like an artifact

3. Demonslayer

Demonslayer is a greatsword of great renown. Weilded by Karzoth Demonslayer, one of the members of the ill-fated First Expedition. Demonslayer was unfortunately, broken, and its pieces have been lost to various denizens of the underworld. Though if it were to be reforged, the fabled blade would be a powerful tool indeed.

+4 Wounding Evil Outsider Bane Greatsword
-Deals an additional 2d6 Damage if the target is a Demon (+2d6 for any evil outsider, +4d6 against demons)
-Against Demons, Demonslayer deals 1d3 Con Damage instead of 1 Con Damage.
-The Blade glows pale blue when demons are near (Within 240 ft.) The closer they are, the brighter it glows. Sheathing Demonslayer supresses the effect. New Feature to make it feel more like an artifact
-Any Demon slain by Demonslayer is utterly annihilated.

4. The Onyx Scepter

The Onyx Scepter's origin is unknown. It was undoubtedly created on the surface, and undoubtedly made its way to Exile. Whether it came with the First Expedition, or the Five when they were banished, is unknown. What is known is that it is a powerful rod of carved black stone and crystal. It is said to amplify the powers of the mage who wields it, and is especially useful when dealing with portals, which are unstable by nature. When the Onyx Scepter is near a portal, it calms it, and keeps it stable.


-Allows the wielder to apply the Empower Spell feat to two spells cast each day. These spells are not cast at a higher level, nor do they take up a higher spell slot.
-Allows the wielder to apply the Extend Spell feat to two spells cast each day. These spells are not cast at a higher level, nor do they take up a higher spell slot.
-Allows the wielder to apply the Quicken Spell feat to two spells cast each day. These spells are not cast at a higher level, nor do they take up a higher spell slot.
-Wielder gains the Augmented Summoning Feat.
-Portals within 120ft. of the Onyx Scepter are more stable. (DM Decides what this means)

[Telok]

Gah. I hit the wrong button and lost a good post.

Jeff Vogel played in a D&D game in the 80's. Based on that game he wrote a computer game called Exile: Escape from the Pit in the 90's and founded Spiderweb Software (he even admitted to copying the GIFTS from his DM). After about five sequels to Exile he re-wrote the game and improved the graphics, calling it Avernum. I've had an Exile setting waiting on my hard drive for a year now, missing only the town/dungeon write-up that was eaten by a user error.

Problems with vanilla 3.5 Exile/Avernum:

Flight, teleport, planar travel. These negate large chunks of the setting and the themes of exploration and imprisonment.

High level casters in Exile and the Empire. Erika, Soldberg, X, and Patrick are all at least 12th level, yet oddly stymied by a couple of teen HD demons. Garzahd needs to be well into epic to thwart them and lay down Forbiddance on the roughly 16,000 square miles of Exile/Avenrum.

Snafu economy. You're going to have to throw the whole WBL and magic item economy out the window. Plus once the PC's can create a couple of low end constructs they can just mine an exit path.

Dragons. The standard D&D dragons don't fit with the plot.

Alignment. Empire clerics are evil, Avernum clerics are good/neutral. The minute you really think about what this means to the Empire... Default alignment is going to cause extra problems.

I can go into more detail later if you want. I was actually going to start posting some of my Exile setting stuff in this forum tonight, I still need to finish off a few magic items and I would like to check if I really missed or messed anything. Aside from deleting a 200+ kb text file of mined data and flavor text. That hurt.

[Omeganaut]

I like it so far. I'd say you need to establish the races stats sooner rather than later because it sounds like you will need to rebalance them to a different level than normal races. I'd also say you need to look into what parts of traditional D&D don't work with the setting, and figure out how to remove or replace them, like Telok said. Keep up the work, and let me know if you need any help.

[Shpadoinkle]

I played a bit of the Exile games in the 90's and I liked them quite a bit, but I never got around to looking at Avernum. I like what you've done with this so far, and I think I might have to take a look at Avernum now...

[The Glyphstone]

And be prepared for someone to ask for the LA on a G.I.F.T.S.:smallcool:

[ARTHAN]

Personally, I wouldn't run the Avernum/Exile campaign setting, but if I had to choose from Spiderweb Software I would pick the Geneforge campaign setting instead, the Nethergate story in second and the Avernum series in third. Anyway, I admit that Avernum/Exile fits much better to D&D RPG and it is also much easier to create.
In my opinion, you should consider the following:

* Will it be a free roaming campaign (much like the Avernum series itself) where the adventurers can go whenever they wish, or it will be more like "guiding from the nose" adventure style where the adventurers have little freedom during their travels? This may vastly change the amount of work you have to do.

* There are intelligent, friendly, good-aligned Giant Spiders in the Avernum and they are in war with Araneas. While the Araneas of the original D&D 3.5 Monster Manual fill the concept well, you have to create the friendly ones from scratch, since they can't cast spells and they are much weaker than Araneas in general.

* I don't think Sliths and Nephilim need much of a work. Personally, I would Pick Lizardfolk or Troglodyte for a Slith and Hobgoblin for a Nephilim (in terms of statistics, the appearance varies accordingly). If you play with D&D 4th edition, the Shifter race fills the Nephilim role almost perfectly.

* True Dragons need change to their alignment/personality, since in Avernum cosmology true Dragons are all very rare, chromatic, well-known, fearsome figures of great power and knowledge and they should be of at least ancient age. About their powers, I think you do not need to do great work, I would pick the dragon of the according color and age. Mortrax, for example, would be a Great Wyrm Green Dragon, but of a Lawful Good alignment.

* Pretty underdark races fit to the concept and I don't think you will ever feel that the Monster Manual (no matter the edition) has not enough or appropriate monsters for your campaign.

* Maybe the most difficult part is the flesh-out of the NPCs and the map-making of the Avernum world, since the creators of the Avernum universe put much effort and detail to these two aspects.

Well, that's all for now, if another idea/advice comes to mind I will let you know. Good luck with your campaign!

[Augmental]

Here's some basic stats for the Vanhatai race. If you want to use them, you may.

*Monstrous Humanoid type.
*+4 Wisdom, +2 Intelligence, -2 Strength, -4 Constitution. Vanhatai are exceptionally wise, but tend to have poor physical ability and endurance.
*Medium size.
*Vanhatai base land speed is 30 feet.
*Low-Light Vision: A vanhatai can see twice as far as a human in conditions of poor illumination, such as under the luminescent fungi that covers the ceiling of Avernum. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
*+2 on all Appraise, Craft, and Knowledge checks related to crystals. Crystals are a major part of vanhatai culture and everyday life.
*Favored Class: Wizard
*Level Adjustment: +0 (not sure on this, tell me what you think).

Also, here's some potions. Unless specified otherwise, the duration on all of these is 1 minute.

Rogue's Elixir
This ingido-colored potion, when consumed, grants you a +4 enhancement bonus to Open Lock and Disable Device checks.
Faint transmutation; Price 500 gp

Strength Potion/Strength Elixir
These red-orange potions, when drank, grant you a +2/+4 enhancement bonus to strength.
Faint/moderate transmutation; Price 250/1000 gp

Restoration Brew
One of the four legendary brews, which are the most powerful potions known to Avernum. This silvery brew functions as a heal spell (CL 15) when consumed, except it also removes all negative levels, restores all permanently drained stats, and restores all permanently drained levels.
Strong conjuration; Price 5000 gp

Protection Brew
This dark grey brew, when consumed, grants a +8 enhancement bonus to armor class, a +8 enhancement bonus to all saving throws, and SR 20 that stacks with all other sources of spell resistance.
Strong abjuration; Price 5000 gp

Heroic Brew
This black brew, when consumed, grants a +6 untyped bonus to attack and damage with melee weapons, a BAB equal to that of a fighter, the ability to make two extra attacks when full attacking, a +20 feet untyped bonus to your base land speed, and a +2 untyped bonus to Armor Class. Unlike most other potions, this brew only lasts 30 seconds (or 5 rounds).

An unfortunate side effect of the heroic brew's power is that it tastes nauseatingly horrible. The first time you drink a heroic brew, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to gag it down; if you fail, you cough the potion back up and gain no bonus from it, and must make another DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid being sickened for 1d4 rounds. If you manage to gag it down, all future saves to gag it down are reduced in difficulty by 1, which stacks every time you succeed on the save without failing in the future. For example, if Bob drinks 3 heroic brews and manages to gag them down every time without failing, the difficulty check will be 12 instead of 15; however, if Bob ends up coughing one up the next time he tries to drink a heroic brew, the save is set back to 15. If you manage to drink 5 heroic brews without any fails in between, you no longer have to make a Fortitude check to drink a heroic brew.
Overwhelming transmutation; Price 10000 gp

Knowledge Brew
This perfectly clear liquid is the strongest, rarest, and most expensive brew of all; it can directly and permanently increase a character's skills. When a character drinks this potion, they instantly gain 1 skill rank each in 4 skills of their choice. If the character decides to put skill ranks in a trained-only skill, they gain the ability to use that skill. Cross-class skills don't only increase by half a point as they would if you put skill points into them naturally.

Sadly, the recipe for the Knowledge Brew has been long forgotten; the very few people that know it are either dead or live out in hostile, difficult-to-reach areas, and no known copies of it exist. Many people aren't even aware that knowledge brews exist anymore, and only the elite potion shops can hope to stock even one - and the opportunities to get them are nearly nonexistant, since only a couple dozen of them are in known circulation.
(If a DM wishes, they could make an overreaching sidequest about trying to find the long-lost Knowledge Brew recipe, or similar.)
Price: varies, but generally around 100000 gp.

[Darklady2831]

The game would indeed be more of a free roam or sandbox.

As for alignment problems. The Empire's soldiers aren't necessarily evil, Emperor Hawthorne is. Clerics also wouldn't really worship gods. Their power comes from faith and discipline. Though different religions are in existance, they are different because of their personal beliefs and goals. The Anama are a sect strongly against the use of Arcane Magic, The Church of Prevailing Righteousness is a sect of Battle-Priests that respect strength and honor. The Church of Fortune is a sect devoted to luck, and there are many others.

Arcane Magic in general needs quite a bit of adjustment. Namely, Teleportation/ Long Range Divinations/Flight/Planar Travel/Creation of Magic Items/Binding Outsiders.
For Teleportation, the idea I came up with was limiting it to Portals.
Long Range Divinations would be difficult though the miles of solid rock, Unless you're divining (Or any kind of that stuff, communication magic included) a magical nexus.
Flight are the like could be limited by making them weak because of Avernum's natural magic. Requiring powerful artifacts (Like the Orb of Thralni) to keep the flight stable and safe.
Planar Travel, again, would be limited by Portals.
The creation of magical items or constructs would be incredibly difficult because of the need for a magic laboratory. Which would be exceedingly hard to find in the underworld.
The Binding of outsiders would again be difficult, considering that outsiders would be more powerful than usual.

Dragons would have to be rebuilt from the ground up. Especially because as they age, they do weaken in their later years (As evident with Motrax), and they have some innate magic, all breath fire, and don't have alignment predispositions. Drakes would be smaller, frost breathing cousins of the dragons, and fire lizards would be even more distant cousins of them.

As for races, see below.



Nephilim
*Humanoid (Feline)
*+4 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma. Nephilim are agile and insightful creatures, but their tribal nature and general xenophobia make them poor negotiators.
*Low Light Vision; Nephilim are accustomed to hunting at night, or in the dark caves of Avernum. They can see twice as far as humans in low light conditions, such as the fluorescent fungus of Avernum.
*A Nephilim's Base Land Speed is 35ft.
*A Nephilim has Weapon Proficiency with the Longbow and Shortbow.
*Catlike Reflexes; A Nephilim is quick to act, and gains a +2 bonus to reflex saves.
*Favored Class: Scout
*Level Adjustment +1



Nepharim
*Humanoid (Feline)
*+4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma. Nepharim are strong, agile and insightful creatures, but their brutal and savage nature tends to make them mistrusted and disliked.
*Low Light Vision; Nepharim are accustomed to hunting at night, or in the dark caves of Avernum. They can see twice as far as humans in low light conditions, such as the fluorescent fungus of Avernum.
*A Nepharim's Base Land Speed is 30ft.
*A Nepharim has Weapon Proficiency with the Longbow and Shortbow.
*Catlike Reflexes; A Nepharim is quick to act, and gains a +2 bonus to reflex saves.
*+1 Natural Armor; A Nepharim has tough hide that gives them a small amount of protection.
*Favored Class: Barbarian
*Level Adjustment +2



Slithzerikai
*Humanoid (Reptilian)
*+4 Strength, +4 Constitution, +2 Wisdom. A Slithzerikai is a very strong and tough creature, and their senses are sharp to aid in hunting.
*+2 Natural Armor; the Slithzerikai have tough hide and scales that protect them from the blows of their foes.
*Resist Fire 5; Slithzerikai love the heat, and fire burns them only rarely.
*Cold fatigue; When a Slithzerikai takes cold damage, its body slows and its reflexes become sluggish. Any Slithzerikai that takes more than 5 points of cold damage in a single round is fatigued for 1d10 Minutes.
*Darkvision 60ft; The Slithzerikai have dwelt in caves for a long time, and their eyes are adapted to seeing in the darkness of the underground.
*Slithzerikai gain Weapon Proficiency with the Slith Spear.
*Favored Class: Fighter
*Level Adjustment: +3



Vahnatai
*Monstrous Humanoid type.
*+4 Wisdom, +4 Intelligence, +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity. Vanhatai are exceptionally intelligent and insightful, and their reflexes and limbs are stronger than they look.
*Medium size.
*Vahnatai base land speed is 30 feet.
*Darkvision 120ft; the Vahnatai have lived in dark underground caves for their entire existence, and their eyes pierce even the darkest of places as if lit by the brightest of lights.
*+2 on all Appraise, Craft, Knowledge, Psicraft, and Spellcraft checks related to Crystals (Including Cognizance Crystals, Dorjes, Power Stones, Psicrowns, Ioun Stones, and Crystalline Creatures.)
*Vahnatai have Weapon Proficiency with the Waveblade, and Razordisk
*Natural Psionics: A Vahnatai gains a number of power points (See the Expanded Psionics Handbook pg.17) equal to their Hit Dice.
*Favored Class: Psion
*Level Adjustment: +4

Exotic Racial Weapons.
Slith Spear: 1d10 Damage, x3 Critical. +2 On Disarm attempts.
Waveblade: 1d8 Damage, 18-20/x2 Critical.
Razordisk: 1d6 Damage, x3 Critical. 30ft Range Increment.

As for the potions, I like many of them, though they could easily just be wondrous items that replicate high level spells.

As for the Brews... they should generally be treasure or quest rewards. Nobody should sell them, and having one created should be a quest in and of itself. Gathering ingredients, finding someone who can brew them, and convincing them to brew the liquid.

Legendary Brews
There are five mixtures of unimaginable power in the world of Avernum. They are all brewed using incredibly rare ingredients, and it takes a true master of alchemy to make one correctly. One of the downsides of the Legendary Brews is that they all taste absolutely horrible. A DC 15 Fortitude save is required to drink one without coughing it back up, and every time you pass the test, the DC is reduced by 1. If someone manages to drink five legendary brews in a row without coughing one back up, they no longer have to take this Fortitude save.

Knowledge Brew
This thin, light brown liquid is the first of the four Legendary Brews. It imbues the imbiber with new insight and knowledge. The imbiber gains 4 Skill Points, which can be spent immediately.

Protection Brew
This thick grey liquid is the second of the five Legendary Brews. The imbiber is surrounded by a nimbus of shimmering energy that protects and preserves them. The imbiber gains a +4 Armor Bonus to AC, a +4 Deflection Bonus to AC, and a +4 Dodge Bonus to AC. They also gain resist Fire, Cold, Electricity, and Acid 15. As well, the imbiber gains a +4 Enhancement bonus to All saving throws. This brew lasts for thirty seconds (5 rounds).

Heroic Brew
This thick red liquid is the third of the five Legendary Brews. The disgusting ooze gives the imbiber great prowess in battle, and greatly aids them for a time. Whenever the imbiber rolls 1d20 for attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, or saving throws, they roll two dice and take the highest result. Anytime the imbiber rolls a critical threat, the critical hit is automatically confirmed. Anytime the imbiber deals damage, any bonuses because of strength, weapon enhancement bonuses, or feats are doubled. This brew lasts for thirty seconds (5 rounds).

Restoration Brew
This thick green liquid is the fourth of the five Legendary Brews. The incredible fluid can heal great injuries, remove the worst of curses, and bring someone back from the brink of death. The imbiber is healed as if by a Heal spell (20th Caster Level), a Regenerate Spell, and a Greater Restoration Spell. As well, the imbiber is effected by a Break Enchantment Spell (20th Caster Level).

Balm of Life
This thick grey paste is the fifth and final Legendary Brew. When applied to any part of the remains of a deceased creature, the powerful magic within the paste activates, regenerating the body of the deceased, and restoring life to them. This functions as a True Resurrection spell cast by a 20th level Cleric. Anyone brought back to life by a Balm of Life gains a +1 on saves against Death effects, as the residual magic of the Balm wards their soul.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't think the Slith are worth +3 LA with that, though the Nepharim are worth it at LA+2 and the Nephilim are fine at LA+1. Slith are one of the three playable races, after all, and they're supposed to be tough frontline warriors - you don't want them too fragile to survive adventuring. Maybe change them to 2 Monstrous Humanoid HD and +1 or +2 LA?

[Cieyrin]

I don't think the Slith are worth +3 LA with that, though the Nepharim are worth it at LA+2 and the Nephilim are fine at LA+1. Slith are one of the three playable races, after all, and they're supposed to be tough frontline warriors - you don't want them too fragile to survive adventuring. Maybe change them to 2 Monstrous Humanoid HD and +1 or +2 LA?

Indeed, you could build the Sliths like Gnoll, down to HD/LA. And if anything, I'd say Sliths and Nephar should be pretty balanced against one another and bring the Vahnatai down to LA +3, so they're all a bit more reachable yet more powerful baseline than humans, since it's tough down there.

In other ideas, stealing ideas from Dark Sun (desert wasteland vs. underground wasteland) may not be a bad idea of how to get things more savage and low magic.

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe give Vahantai Practiced Manifester as a bonus feat, since they all dabble in psionicscrystal magic to some degree?

[Grinner]

Maybe give Vahantai Practiced Manifester as a bonus feat, since they all dabble in psionicscrystal magic to some degree?

They don't really practice psionics, and the crystal magic is just a method for making simulacrums.

There's no sense in requiring DMs to include the whole psionics subsystem when arcane magic will suffice just as well.

[Cieyrin]

They don't really practice psionics, and the crystal magic is just a method for making simulacrums.

There's no sense in requiring DMs to include the whole psionics subsystem when arcane magic will suffice just as well.

Why not? Vahnatai magics are alien to everyone but them and psionics fits that perfectly. If it's really that much of a bother, we can do it like WotC did by having a magic/psionic versions but I don't think learning a new system that models them well is that much of a hurdle, especially since the XPH is on the SRD and everything you need to know to run them properly.

That does bring to mind, though, that being heavily LA'd does hurt their ability to challenge similarly experienced creatures, as it does any caster. I suppose, like how the Drow are to normal campaigns, we generally see high level representatives to make up for that, given the difference between CR and LA.

If we wanted to expand it to include the Crystal Souls, mixing a bit of Incarnum and Soul Manifesters can work reasonably well but that may be going further than people care to, given MoI isn't SRD.

[Coidzor]

One bit of handwavium I liked to try to fit Exile/Avernum into a more standard D&D world is to have it so that Avernum was initially discovered as a "bubble" of the Elemental Plane of Earth that was either coterminous or actually physically overlapping/breaching into the material plane.

So, naturally, a bunch of 12th to 16th level adventurers were hired by the only wizard mad enough to figure out a way to travel through planar boundaries but remain on the same plane. That's why one can't really dig their way out and dorfs and such don't really dig their way in, barring kerfluffles and hiccups, the earth at the borders is technically a pocket of infinite earth and stone and such. For areas that constantly keep shifting, this works to a certain extent to help explain them as well.

My understanding of Avernum's metal situation was that ores were not that difficult to come by, but that fuel and blacksmiths were, to the point where many of the forges in Avernum had to be magical creations in their own right, and since the military was always needing to be on alert, most of those resources went straight into the warmachine, with civilians having to make due with surplus and inferior stock or what they could fashion themselves.

[Cieyrin]

One bit of handwavium I liked to try to fit Exile/Avernum into a more standard D&D world is to have it so that Avernum was initially discovered as a "bubble" of the Elemental Plane of Earth that was either coterminous or actually physically overlapping/breaching into the material plane.

So, naturally, a bunch of 12th to 16th level adventurers were hired by the only wizard mad enough to figure out a way to travel through planar boundaries but remain on the same plane. That's why one can't really dig their way out and dorfs and such don't really dig their way in, barring kerfluffles and hiccups, the earth at the borders is technically a pocket of infinite earth and stone and such. For areas that constantly keep shifting, this works to a certain extent to help explain them as well.

My understanding of Avernum's metal situation was that ores were not that difficult to come by, but that fuel and blacksmiths were, to the point where many of the forges in Avernum had to be magical creations in their own right, and since the military was always needing to be on alert, most of those resources went straight into the warmachine, with civilians having to make due with surplus and inferior stock or what they could fashion themselves.

The issue with that is that, in Avernum/Exile 3, they DID dig out of Avernum. The problem, as I understand it, is that the caves are unstable from monsters and cavequakes and, due to lack of wood, they're not terribly able to brace them, hence why ways out don't tend to stay that way for long.

Lack of fuel is definitely a major problem for getting quality weapons, armor and tools in any quantity and the reason they tend to be expensive. Also why they you see a lot of bows and spears, since they use a minimum of metal or stone and fuel to make and be effective. Swords are supposed to be rare and treasured.

[ARTHAN]

Everything everyone says here is true, however if you want my humble opinion, it is better to make your campaign setting more D&D core rulebooks based, by keeping the same pricing system, spellcasting system, racial system etc.
* Messing with LA is rarely good when it comes to playable races, like Nephilim and Sliths. Better take and slightly modify existing LA +0 MM races in order to create Nephilim, Sliths and Vanhatai. As for Sliths being skilled frontline warriors, that can be explained with leveling up (an average Human guard may be lvl 1 NPC Warrior, while an average Slithzerkai combatant may be lvl 3 NPC Warrior, just an example).
* Powerful magic, like Teleportation spells, is available only on higher levels (that's the reason no one can teleport easily around) and even if they wished to teleport to the surface and vice versa they must have knowledge of the location and/or the distance between the Empire's surface and the Avernum's caverns. Because of that, I don't think it is neccesary to limit them.
* I generally think you're doing too much work in the races and in the spellcasting and shopping sytems and I don't find it neccessary. Better focus in NPC and mapping, since your campaign is going to be free-roam style. If you need the players not to be able to cast powerful spells, then you can either consider there is a great forbiddance-like field which forbids some powerful spells for happening or give them less XP per encounter in order to level up with a slower pace and to remain well behind extremely powerful spells. However, it seems you already made your decision, so gool luck for it!

[The Glyphstone]

* Messing with LA is rarely good when it comes to playable races, like Nephilim and Sliths. Better take and slightly modify existing LA +0 MM races in order to create Nephilim, Sliths and Vanhatai. As for Sliths being skilled frontline warriors, that can be explained with leveling up (an average Human guard may be lvl 1 NPC Warrior, while an average Slithzerkai combatant may be lvl 3 NPC Warrior, just an example).


But how does that work when a PC wants to be a Slith? Does he just get an extra 2 levels over the rest of the party? The point was that in the game, Slith (and Nephilim) were objectively better in their stats and abilities than humans, which resulted in them needing a higher % of XP to gain a character level - pretty much exactly what LA is (intended) to represent in D&D.

Between "faithful to the source material" and "playable at level 1", I'll take the first option in all cases. If your party is Level 1, they've probably just been thrown into the pit anyways, so they would only be humans.

[Coidzor]

The issue with that is that, in Avernum/Exile 3, they DID dig out of Avernum. The problem, as I understand it, is that the caves are unstable from monsters and cavequakes and, due to lack of wood, they're not terribly able to brace them, hence why ways out don't tend to stay that way for long.

Lack of fuel is definitely a major problem for getting quality weapons, armor and tools in any quantity and the reason they tend to be expensive. Also why they you see a lot of bows and spears, since they use a minimum of metal or stone and fuel to make and be effective. Swords are supposed to be rare and treasured.

I figured with Upper Exile, since it was a separate set of caverns closer to the surface, they had just managed to get into a less traveled area of the greater underdark or an isolated layer separate from the greater underdark.

[Cieyrin]

I figured with Upper Exile, since it was a separate set of caverns closer to the surface, they had just managed to get into a less traveled area of the greater underdark or an isolated layer separate from the greater underdark.

Having a closer set of caverns with less to dig through is certainly a boon but it is just one of the factors to getting anywhere. Mining through solid stone isn't easy business, especially when you have to keep your site safe from hostiles, lack of tools and people to dig a tunnel and getting to and from a likely site, as well as keeping those people fed throughout the process, as mining is hard work and not something necessarily supported by the local food supply. None of those are certain in Avernum, especially in the early days.

[ARTHAN]

But how does that work when a PC wants to be a Slith? Does he just get an extra 2 levels over the rest of the party? The point was that in the game, Slith (and Nephilim) were objectively better in their stats and abilities than humans, which resulted in them needing a higher % of XP to gain a character level - pretty much exactly what LA is (intended) to represent in D&D.

Between "faithful to the source material" and "playable at level 1", I'll take the first option in all cases. If your party is Level 1, they've probably just been thrown into the pit anyways, so they would only be humans.

I do not just talk without having D&D experience. I have played lots of sessions and races with LA don't work very well as player classes, except if both the players and the DM are really experienced. Half-Orcs are also tough fighters (like Sliths for example) but they do not have a LA. If you just take Half-Orc, change their "Orc blood" to "Slith/Reptilian/Draconic blood", change their "Weapon Familiarity: Orc Double Axe" to "Weapon Familiarity: Double Spear" (Double Spear can be like Double Sword, but with piercing instead of slashing damage) and with some flavor you have a perfect Slith race with much less effort and the game's balance unchanged (since Sliths will be as good as Half-Orcs). Vanhatai and Nephars can be created with a same way, based on MM races of +0 LA.
Between "completely faithful to Avernum series model" and "as balanced as the original D&D cosmology" let me take the second option is this case, dear Glyphstone. Avernum system is trully good and nice for a videogame, but if you want to play D&D, then better stay loyal to the main D&D rules. If you want a true pen & paper Avernum experience, then you have to create your own pen & paper Avernum RPG from scratch, based on your own experience and info from the Avernum/Exile manuals. That's my humble opinion.

[Darklady2831]

Arthan, I don't want to insult you or anything, so please don't take any offense to this.

But LA on those Races is just going to stay. It stays truest to both Avernum's System, and my personal D&D ideology. If anybody else doesn't like it, they can change that if they want to use the setting. Personally, the Game I'm running of this will take place before any of the games, only a couple of years after Avernum was made into a prison system. So humans have barely spread into the eastern gallery. None of the players are going to be Sliths/Nephils/Nephar to start with. Of course, if one dies, and they want to come back in as a Friendly Nephil/Slith/Nephar, then they deal with that LA. An easy way around it too, is LA Buyoff. Which I recommend to any DM regardless of setting.

[The Glyphstone]

Homebrewing is more than just refluffing existing material. Sure, I can play a Half-Orc and write 'Slith' on my sheet, but that's just deceiving myself, because said Half-Orc is barely any better, if not outright inferior, to his human buddy. The only reason to stick to weak, LA +0 races is if you're simply not a skilled enough homebrewer to understand balance, or if you only play at level 1.

[Coidzor]

Having a closer set of caverns with less to dig through is certainly a boon but it is just one of the factors to getting anywhere. Mining through solid stone isn't easy business, especially when you have to keep your site safe from hostiles, lack of tools and people to dig a tunnel and getting to and from a likely site, as well as keeping those people fed throughout the process, as mining is hard work and not something necessarily supported by the local food supply. None of those are certain in Avernum, especially in the early days.

Well, it was practically a cave system in a mountain that linked to a layer of major caverns that they punched through, at least, that's how it was in Exile from what I could gather.

Being able to go from "**** we're, like, miles beneath the surface" to "Huh, we're under a mountain range, let's look around and see if we link up to any caves that open onto the surface," would certainly be a boon though, and they weren't able to really look for it or take advantage of it until they had become more established and secure, that's true.

The shell thing was more to address deep-delvers like the dwarves or someone managing to tame a rock-eating burrower or other such abominable creature.

WRT LA+1, LA+2, LA+0, get an LA+1 and LA+2 version for Nephilim and Sliths and then have a stripped down version of that for LA+0. It's usually not that difficult to do if one keeps that in mind as an alternative option during the creation process, no?

Actually, given how alien the Vahnatai are, they might be a good place for a savage progression/monster class type deal.

[Thiyr]

About a two years ago now I started running a game in a setting based closely on Exile/Avernum. Doing it in e6 was huge as far as making certain staples of the game (the pit actually remaining a prison, the rarity of metal as a whole being important) work out well. From there it was mostly homebrewing in prices/effects of different mundane materials, starting to make alchemy/potions more of a mundane thing, and keeping magic items as something strange, unique, and rare. But the biggest thing that helped was going e6. Heck, if I hadn't started them all as new occupants, the LA reducing point buy would have helped, and the lack of higher level spells made a lot of things that would obsolete the world irrelevant. From there, make things you can't normally do be fueled by long, lengthy, expensive plot rituals, and it worked out fairly well.

[Darklady2831]

Having a closer set of caverns with less to dig through is certainly a boon but it is just one of the factors to getting anywhere. Mining through solid stone isn't easy business, especially when you have to keep your site safe from hostiles, lack of tools and people to dig a tunnel and getting to and from a likely site, as well as keeping those people fed throughout the process, as mining is hard work and not something necessarily supported by the local food supply. None of those are certain in Avernum, especially in the early days.


Well, it was practically a cave system in a mountain that linked to a layer of major caverns that they punched through, at least, that's how it was in Exile from what I could gather.

Being able to go from "**** we're, like, miles beneath the surface" to "Huh, we're under a mountain range, let's look around and see if we link up to any caves that open onto the surface," would certainly be a boon though, and they weren't able to really look for it or take advantage of it until they had become more established and secure, that's true.

The shell thing was more to address deep-delvers like the dwarves or someone managing to tame a rock-eating burrower or other such abominable creature.

I was under the impression that NOBODY knew exactly where Avernum/Exile was. The caves were found using magic, and teleportation to get down there. Upper Avernum/Exile was also found using magic, and Teleportation to get to Fort Emergence. That would make upper avernum/exile only a few hundred yards from the surface (As you do get there through a tunnel), and Exile/Avernum an unknown number of miles beneath that. Though we do know that there was an escape route behind Sulfras's lair, it could be surmised that the surface you escape to from there is on an unknown continent. Regardless of where it goes, that route was hundreds of miles long, and it was collapsed in Avernum 2.

[ARTHAN]

Arthan, I don't want to insult you or anything, so please don't take any offense to this.

But LA on those Races is just going to stay. It stays truest to both Avernum's System, and my personal D&D ideology. If anybody else doesn't like it, they can change that if they want to use the setting. Personally, the Game I'm running of this will take place before any of the games, only a couple of years after Avernum was made into a prison system. So humans have barely spread into the eastern gallery. None of the players are going to be Sliths/Nephils/Nephar to start with. Of course, if one dies, and they want to come back in as a Friendly Nephil/Slith/Nephar, then they deal with that LA. An easy way around it too, is LA Buyoff. Which I recommend to any DM regardless of setting.

I am not insulted at all. You are the DM of course, so you will do whatever you like in your homebrew campaign setting. Whatever I say, it is just suggestions.

The Glyphstone said: Homebrewing is more than just refluffing existing material.

*That depends on how much work you are willing to do and how far you wish to go. However, the more you move away from official stuff, the more you risk of imbalance and the more work you do. Of course, your experience as a D&D player and/or DM plays a major role here.

The Glyphstone said: Sure, I can play a Half-Orc and write 'Slith' on my sheet, but that's just deceiving myself,

*Yes, of course you decieve yourself! D&D is about decieving yourself that a piece of written paper is the mightiest dragon ever existed!! RPG games are about imagining you are a character in a fantasy world!!! Actually, you are truly decieved if you think you are not decieved at all, lmao.

The Glyphstone said: because said Half-Orc is barely any better, if not outright inferior, to his human buddy.

*This depends. You claim the Half-Orc race is inferior to the Human race, however Half-Orcs can do some things better than humans and some other worse than them. For example, they usually make better Barbarians than Humans, but worse Bards than them.

The Glyphstone said: The only reason to stick to weak, LA +0 races is if you're simply not a skilled enough homebrewer to understand balance, or if you only play at level 1.

*Let's get serious here. First of all, the fact you think LA +0 races are "weak" is a sign of Power Gaming spirit. I don't say they are overall as good as LA > +0 races, but there are things these "lowly" races can do which races with greater LA cannot. Most LA +0 races can, for example, fit in a human society better than most LA > +0 races and may have other features a player may like or need. A Gnome's ability to speak with burrowing animals, for exapmle, if used to alert the party for an extremely strong predator in the area, the party can flee and survive, while a Hobgoblin (LA+1) wouldn't be able to do the same thing. Another example is the Ogre and the Halfling; a Halfling can enter a Human town with no difficulty, but the Orge would possibly be killed in sight by the guards.

About of understanding balance, guys do you really think balancing everything perfectly is an easy thing? Let me explain myself (please don't take anything as an insult).
1st)Balance is mostly relative and it depends on many different things and situations.
2nd)There are several playtesters in Wizards Of The Coast who have tested the D&D 3.5 system again and again, but they were unable to perfectly balance the game, what makes you think you will do much better than them? A team of RPG professionals with studios and tools to support them versus a single person doing homebrew, who think really would win?

If you wish to make homebrew stuff for the fun of it, go and do it! I greatly approve of homebrew stuff, just don't be ignorant in the balance thing, that's what I suggest.

[Darklady2831]

2nd)There are several playtesters in Wizards Of The Coast who have tested the D&D 3.5 system again and again, but they were unable to perfectly balance the game, what makes you think you will do much better than them? A team of RPG professionals with studios and tools to support them versus a single person doing homebrew, who think really would win?

If you wish to make homebrew stuff for the fun of it, go and do it! I greatly approve of homebrew stuff, just don't be ignorant in the balance thing, that's what I suggest.

Considering how skewed the game is, and how unbalanced Magic is vs. Martial, I think they didn't do a great job.

[The Glyphstone]

You can't do much worse than WotC. These are the people who think a Half-Elf, a Half-Orc, and a Dwarf are both LA+0, and that remaining youthful (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#monkTimelessBody) is as powerful as stopping time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm) or transforming into a fire-breathing dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm).


*Yes, of course you decieve yourself! D&D is about decieving yourself that a piece of written paper is the mightiest dragon ever existed!! RPG games are about imagining you are a character in a fantasy world!!! Actually, you are truly decieved if you think you are not decieved at all, lmao.

Deceiving yourself is saying "A Monk can totally beat up a wizard in a fight". Delusion is saying "I am actually a dragon-slaying warrior who can cast magic spells". If you cannot understand the difference between these two (recognizing flaws in a game vs. understanding a game is fantasy), I urge you to go see a psychologist immediately, we cannot help you here.




*This depends. You claim the Half-Orc race is inferior to the Human race, however Half-Orcs can do some things better than humans and some other worse than them. For example, they usually make better Barbarians than Humans, but worse Bards than them.

Humans, in fact, make better Barbarians than Half-Orcs, because they get a Bonus feat that is worth far more than +1 hit/damage due to +2 Strength, and effective +2 Skill Points per level over the half-orc. They also make better bards, or fighters, or pretty much anything. You play a Half-Orc because you're willing to sacrifice mechanical power (and social power, considering they are looked down on) for...saying you did?


*Let's get serious here. First of all, the fact you think LA +0 races are "weak" is a sign of Power Gaming spirit. I don't say they are overall as good as LA > +0 races, but there are things these "lowly" races can do which races with greater LA cannot. Most LA +0 races can, for example, fit in a human society better than most LA > +0 races and may have other features a player may like or need. A Gnome's ability to speak with burrowing animals, for exapmle, if used to alert the party for an extremely strong predator in the area, the party can flee and survive, while a Hobgoblin (LA+1) wouldn't be able to do the same thing. Another example is the Ogre and the Halfling; a Halfling can enter a Human town with no difficulty, but the Orge would possibly be killed in sight by the guards.

Which is proving my point that you lack the experience to understand balanced play or balanced design. A true 'powergamer spirit', as you accuse, refuses to take any LA he cannot immediately buy off, because in all cases Class Levels > Stats. So playing only LA+0 races makes you the power-gamer. As for fitting in to society or being useful, that's campaign-dependent, and moreso, depends. You say Gnome and Halfling, I say Goliath or Planetouched - they can climb a tall cliff faster than anyone else, letting them reach the enemy who is attacking from above, than the Gnome cannot, while having the endurance and HP to take hits along the way and the strength to fight back when they get there...but a Human would be of 1 higher class level, possibly giving more attacks or higher spells. A Tiefling has Fire Resistance and can run into the burning orphanage to rescue the children there without injury, but will have less HP than others (due to his missing class level) and the social stigma of being descended from fiends.

If your campaign world is so utterly xenophobic that a tall humanoid with grey skin (Goliath) or a humanoid with a celestial grandparent (Aasimaar) is killed on sight when a slightly less tall humanoid with green skin and an evil monstrous parent (Half-Orc) is perfectly acceptable, that's a DM bias, and again not an issue with the rules.

[ARTHAN]

1st) We all insulting Wizards Of The Coast and I admit we have a serious point, however we think we could do much better than those guys which is wrong, we would possibly do much worse than them. We should be more modest about our "incredible" RPG creating skills, don't you think. Creating a game of any kind is not an easy task to do, even for experienced gamers.

2nd) It depends on how you use the word "decieving" and what you mean by it. Thank you for explaining the difference of these words, I will try to keep it in mind.

3rd) No my friend. Races with LA > +0 are obviously the "broken" ones, so you are the power gamer since you want to use them so bad. And thank you for understanding that BALANCE DEPENDS on the situation, cosmology etc.

4th) You claim that ALWAYS a Half-Orc is worse than a Human and that goes against what you later say about the Goliath and depending on the cosmology etc. A Half-Orc is much more than just a +2 STR (the fact you see Half-Orc just as an +1 bonus on strength shows waht a power gamer you are!), he/she is an "Orc Blood" creature, meaning he/she can use magic items used only by Orcs, can become accepted by an Orcish society much easier than a totally non-Orc race, he/she has weapon familiarity with Double Axes and (most of all) it is a Half-Orc and not a Human. This last thing I said means a lot. If you are truly a role-playing gamer you will choose the Half-Orc if you wish your character to have a specific type of backround and/or mannerisms, no matter how "weak" you think this race really is. If you care for role-playing more than power-gaming, then you will care less for balancing issues and more for role playing issues (like me! :smallwink:).
By the way, in a typical Human town of D&D 3.5 system, a Half-Orc will be probably treated with extremely suspicion. As for an Ogre will be more likely instantly slain, except if the characters are well-known around the area or the Ogre's comrades would really guarantee for their "giant-blood friend". The world where "evil races" (like an Orge, or even a Half-Orc) are accepted in a "good race" city (like a Human, Dwarven or Elven one) is not a common 3.5 world, but a rare one. You should know that by now, I mean you have experience in the game, don't you? :smallyuk:

[Cieyrin]

Well, it was practically a cave system in a mountain that linked to a layer of major caverns that they punched through, at least, that's how it was in Exile from what I could gather.

Being able to go from "**** we're, like, miles beneath the surface" to "Huh, we're under a mountain range, let's look around and see if we link up to any caves that open onto the surface," would certainly be a boon though, and they weren't able to really look for it or take advantage of it until they had become more established and secure, that's true.

The shell thing was more to address deep-delvers like the dwarves or someone managing to tame a rock-eating burrower or other such abominable creature.

Fair enough, I'm just saying that it's not just a matter of deciding to dig out, that there are numerous factors to make such an endeavor feasible, let alone successful.


Actually, given how alien the Vahnatai are, they might be a good place for a savage progression/monster class type deal.

I don't know, I think they're mostly class-based and their strangeness is mostly due to using magics unheard of by humans (a.k.a. psionics) and being exclusively a deep dwelling advanced race. They're rather like the Githzerai in a lot of ways, actually. If anybody has monstrous HD, it's the Sliths and Nephar. Arthan had the Nephils and Nephar like the Gnolls and Flinds in his Exile thread, which is neat but I think a better solution would be to have them designed like how Goliaths and Feral Garguns are, with Nephils just LA and Nephars a combination of RHD and LA.

Maybe we should stat up G.I.F.T.S. as well? :smallwink:


I was under the impression that NOBODY knew exactly where Avernum/Exile was. The caves were found using magic, and teleportation to get down there. Upper Avernum/Exile was also found using magic, and Teleportation to get to Fort Emergence. That would make upper avernum/exile only a few hundred yards from the surface (As you do get there through a tunnel), and Exile/Avernum an unknown number of miles beneath that. Though we do know that there was an escape route behind Sulfras's lair, it could be surmised that the surface you escape to from there is on an unknown continent. Regardless of where it goes, that route was hundreds of miles long, and it was collapsed in Avernum 2.

I don't think it was ever made clear how Avernum was found in the first place. Magic of some sort probably had a hand, since they had to make the portal down. Or did they? Perhaps the Empire just discovered portal magic left over from some other people and just used the portals as a way to dump the unwanted, the criminals and the never-do-wells, since it was convenient and there wasn't a known way at the time to get back. The fact that the powerful mages Exiled found a way back is just a testament to what you can do if you have a goal and a strong sense of vengeance against those who wronged you. :smallwink:

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe we should stat up G.I.F.T.S. as well? :smallwink:




Giant Intelligent Friendly Talking Spider (G.I.F.T.S.)
Size/Type: Medium Vermin
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 HP)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30ft. (6 squares), climb 20ft.
Armor Class: 14 (+3 Dex, +1 Natural), touch 13, flat-footed 11
BAB/Grapple: +1/+1
Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d6 plus poison)
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: Poison, Web
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60ft., Tremorsense 60ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will -1
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 12
Skills: Climb +11, Hide +12, Jump +5, Spot +9
Feats: Weapon Focus (Bite), Weapon Finesse(B)
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary or colony (5-15)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% item
Advancement: 3HD (Medium)
LA: Bwahhahahahahahaha.
Quote: "Hi! I'm Spider!"

[Augmental]

1st) We all insulting Wizards Of The Coast and I admit we have a serious point, however we think we could do much better than those guys which is wrong, we would possibly do much worse than them. We should be more modest about our "incredible" RPG creating skills, don't you think. Creating a game of any kind is not an easy task to do, even for experienced gamers.

*snip*

Where did you get the idea that the OP is designing a whole new tabletop RPG system? It's stated pretty clearly in the first post that he's trying to convert a setting from a series of computer games into a D&D campaign setting. That's a far cry from the entire new tabletop role-playing game system you say the OP is trying to create. Yes, adjustments need to be made to the original D&D 3.5 rules for this setting to work properly (eg. making portals pretty much the only known method of teleportation), but I doubt he/she is the first one to adjust the rules so their setting would work better - and it's not even an overhaul, much less a new system.

[ARTHAN]

Where did you get the idea that the OP is designing a whole new tabletop RPG system? It's stated pretty clearly in the first post that he's trying to convert a setting from a series of computer games into a D&D campaign setting. That's a far cry from the entire new tabletop role-playing game system you say the OP is trying to create. Yes, adjustments need to be made to the original D&D 3.5 rules for this setting to work properly (eg. making portals pretty much the only known method of teleportation), but I doubt he/she is the first one to adjust the rules so their setting would work better - and it's not even an overhaul, much less a new system.

I don't think I've blamed anyone for trying to create something completely new, I said that we shouldn't blame WotC designers as worthless people since creating a new RPG system is not an easy thing to do. We have found many flaws in D&D 3.5, flaws the WotC itself couldn't detect. However, we found flaws in an already made RPG system (in our case 3.5) and, believe me here, it is much easier to find flaws in an existing system than creating your own system from scratch. In the hypothetical case a single person from us tried to make his own D&D system, it would probably be much worse than WotC 3.5 D&D, and that's because it is much easier to judge than creating, let alone that single person wouldn't have all the financial resources, material and personnel WotC has.
However, I won't continue this discussion here, since I have read the rules of the "World-Building" forum, where is clearly stated this is not the suitable forum for balancing issues or even homebrew classes, magic items, races etc. Finally, I would like to mention for the last time that I never tried to insult or force anyone to adopt my suggestions and ideas. Everyone is free willed and he/she can do whatever he/she wants and create whatever campaign setting he/she likes the way he/she likes.

[Cieyrin]

Giant Intelligent Friendly Talking Spider (G.I.F.T.S.)
Size/Type: Medium Vermin
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 HP)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30ft. (6 squares), climb 20ft.
Armor Class: 14 (+3 Dex, +1 Natural), touch 13, flat-footed 11
BAB/Grapple: +1/+1
Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d6 plus poison)
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: Poison, Web
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60ft., Tremorsense 60ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will -1
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 12
Skills: Climb +11, Hide +12, Jump +5, Spot +9
Feats: Weapon Focus (Bite), Weapon Finesse(B)
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary or colony (5-15)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% item
Advancement: 3HD (Medium)
LA: Bwahhahahahahahaha.
Quote: "Hi! I'm Spider!"

There's a distinct lack of Alignment: Cheerful Good. :smallbiggrin:


I don't think I've blamed anyone for trying to create something completely new, I said that we shouldn't blame WotC designers as worthless people since creating a new RPG system is not an easy thing to do. We have found many flaws in D&D 3.5, flaws the WotC itself couldn't detect. However, we found flaws in an already made RPG system (in our case 3.5) and, believe me here, it is much easier to find flaws in an existing system than creating your own system from scratch. In the hypothetical case a single person from us tried to make his own D&D system, it would probably be much worse than WotC 3.5 D&D, and that's because it is much easier to judge than creating, let alone that single person wouldn't have all the financial resources, material and personnel WotC has.
However, I won't continue this discussion here, since I have read the rules of the "World-Building" forum, where is clearly stated this is not the suitable forum for balancing issues or even homebrew classes, magic items, races etc. Finally, I would like to mention for the last time that I never tried to insult or force anyone to adopt my suggestions and ideas. Everyone is free willed and he/she can do whatever he/she wants and create whatever campaign setting he/she likes the way he/she likes.

I don't see how that should stop us from learning from their mistakes and improving on it. That's how learning and creation of new things works, you figure out how not to make it and by process of elimination figure out what really works. Look at early WotC products for 3.5 or even 3.0 and compare them to later products, like Sword and Fist to Complete Warrior to Tome of Battle. There is a notable increase in skill and slickness in later products, though there is also a goodly amount of errors present yet (like how you can't learn higher level stances at the proper levels without spending feats, acquiring magic items or manipulating your IL or how Swordsages have 6+Int x6 skill points at 1st level while every other class has x4). We homebrew to try to fix what's broken or make new content that builds off the framework presented to make our games better or to present new options to explore, since WotC won't be for 3rd Edition and Paizo has its own ideas that makes many of the mistakes WotC did during the 3rd Ed era, which is not exactly endearing.

[ARTHAN]

I don't see how that should stop us from learning from their mistakes and improving on it. That's how learning and creation of new things works, you figure out how not to make it and by process of elimination figure out what really works. Look at early WotC products for 3.5 or even 3.0 and compare them to later products, like Sword and Fist to Complete Warrior to Tome of Battle. There is a notable increase in skill and slickness in later products, though there is also a goodly amount of errors present yet (like how you can't learn higher level stances at the proper levels without spending feats, acquiring magic items or manipulating your IL or how Swordsages have 6+Int x6 skill points at 1st level while every other class has x4). We homebrew to try to fix what's broken or make new content that builds off the framework presented to make our games better or to present new options to explore, since WotC won't be for 3rd Edition and Paizo has its own ideas that makes many of the mistakes WotC did during the 3rd Ed era, which is not exactly endearing.

For the last time guys, I AM NOT TELLING YOU NOT TO DO HOMEBREW STUFF FOR GOD'S SAKE! I ACTUALLY THINK MAKING HOMEBREW STUFF AS A GOOD THING. However, you must consider the skill, experience and time needed for these things. What happens if the DM spends a lot of time to create lots of homebrew stuff but then the players are bored of the campaign and just don't keep playing anymore? Woudn't this be irritating for the DM who made so much work for the sake of players and the game in general? Also, I just don't like the WotC-is-noob-at-D&D-stuff-while-I-am-an-expert style, because it is just not true. The fact a system with lots of detail like D&D 3.5 exists means that some people made a good job before we took their work in order to further improve it. Even when we create better stuff than them, we based our work in improving their stuff, their work, so we are not better than them in general.
Homebrew is definitely a good thing. I have made tons of homebrewed stuff myself (both in D&D 3.5 and 4th edition)! Unfortunately, in the end no one of my fellow D&Ders truly wanted to play my campaign settings, despite the fact I always respected those guys both as players and as DMs, let alone I helped them with various of their staff when they were DMs...
:smallfrown: :smallmad:

[The Glyphstone]

There's a distinct lack of Alignment: Cheerful Good. :smallbiggrin:



Cheerful Good works. I couldn't decide what flavor of Good - the hive-community seemed to imply Lawful as a species, but individually they behave more Neutral or even Chaotic at times.

[Agent 451]

Don't forget about the Giant Intelligent Friendly Talking RoacheS, for the inevitable return to the surface!

[Augmental]

So... Is this campaign setting still being worked on, or what? I think it's a really great idea, and deserves to keep getting work on.

Also, LA is bad and rarely worth it, since you're always behind the rest of the party if they're playing LA +0 races. Maybe a Half-Orc Barbarian isn't always worse than a Human Barbarian, but since the Half-Orc will perpetually be behind a level as far as HP, BAB, saves, and class features go assuming they have the same amount of experience and about the same optimization level (and the human gets a free feat, which I'd say is worth more than everything a Half-Orc gets combined), it's still worse overall.

[Zireael]

I love both the idea and the G.I.F.T.S.