Skillmonkey Help

[mrcarter11]

Hoping for some advise on how to go about building a particular type of skillmonkey. I need it to be able to use sneak and social type skills. Knowledge skills would be a huge plus as well. In general though, looking at the following: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Knowledge Local, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Search and Sense Motive.

The DM is a little harsh on what he allows however, and I'll only have a 20PB to work with for stats. Starting level is 5 and it should go through 8. I'll be responsible for social interactions and the like and likely need to handle any scouting we do. And I should be able to at least sorta handle combat..

My first thoughts were the following, all likely making use of Able Learner..

Binder
Incarnate
Wilder
Bard
Rogue


Hoping some playgrounders can give better insight.

[JeminiZero]

No beguiler?

[hymer]

Well, a 14 int (2) human (1) rogue (8) could cover all those skills (unless I miscounted; I believe they're all class skills for the rogue). At those levels, being viable in combat with a rogue is a lot easier if you don't encounter a lot of undead, constructs, elementals, etc. You may get in trouble with the standard (if oldfashioned) two-weapon fighting, due to problems with not having Tumble, and problems getting enough dex (I believe 15 is the requirement). Constitution is also going to be a problem.
I won't speak to the others. Either I don't know them from personal experience, or I don't see how you could easily max 11 skills with them on the point buy budget you've got. I'll just mention that the bard is probably easier on the battle stuff, as you can spend some time just hanging back and doing your bardic stuff. You'll have some problems with scouting as bard, as well as having two fewer skill points per level than the rogue, though.

[mrcarter11]

I'm not familar with the beguiler at all. If you think it can do what I need, then happily explain

[JeminiZero]

I'm not familar with the beguiler at all. If you think it can do what I need, then happily explain

Well, its a full caster with trapfinding and 6 skill points per level, from PHB2. It knows all spells on its list, and casts them spontaneously, but it has a limited spell list of mostly enchantment and illusions. That said, there are some low level gems from other schools in there (Glitterdust, Knock, Haste, Slow, Solid Fog), so you will most assuredly be useful in combat.

More importantly, there are some social boosting spells in there like Charm Person, Hypnotism, Detect Thoughts and Glibness.

Stat wise, you can get by if you split your 20 pb to 10 to Int (16), 6 to Con (14), 4 to Dex (12). Assuming you start with human, or a race that has +2 Int, you can get 10 skill points per level. Sadly, 1 short for your 11 desired skills.

[mrcarter11]

I guess I did phrase that wrong, though thank you for the rundown. I meant, I've never played one. Or seen one played even.

My first impression of the class was that it would become near worthless at high levels due to its lack of non mind effecting spells.

As I'm guessing your familiar with the class, and assuming your familiar with the others I had been looking at, do you think it would work better?

Binder and Incarnate, both can work well in combat, while having options available to them to boost their skills. And both even can boost the skills I'm looking for.

[JeminiZero]

My first impression of the class was that it would become near worthless at high levels due to its lack of non mind effecting spells.

I thought that your campaign was going from 5-8. :smalltongue:

It works better in the sense that it has way more skill points, and Int SAD, for yet more skill points. Binder doesn't have anywhere enough skills, and needs Cha (and you don't have enough Point Buy to go around).

Not familiar with Incarnum, so I can't comment on that.

[mrcarter11]

Binder does indeed lack the ability to keep up in skill ranks, he does however have access to quite a few vestiges how give boni to those skills, which is where my problem is.

[JeminiZero]

Binder does indeed lack the ability to keep up in skill ranks, he does however have access to quite a few vestiges how give boni to those skills, which is where my problem is.

However, a Binder can only bind ONE Vestige at a time (2 once you hit level 8, which is almost campaign end). And while bound to a skill focused vestige, you (usually) won't be as strong a combatant.

A Beguiler as described above can max 10 out of 11 skills, and still throw out all his spells.

[Kalim]

You want to be good at a wide range of skills, and Factotum hasn't come up?

Factotum is an INT-driven class with all skills in-class. All of them. It also has a resource system that refreshes per encounter, giving it the ability to boost a lot of things by its INT score. If you cap out at 8th level in the game, you still get one of their best abilities - Cunning Surge. Factoti can also heal/Turn Undead a few times per day, cast a handful of arcane spells, use handfuls of Sneak Attack dice, and they get INT to their STR and DEX checks and skill checks.


You definitely ought to look it up, it's in Dungeonscape.

[mrcarter11]

Thus is true on all accounts Jemini. It seems you have changed my mind. I'll take a more serious look into the class, and get a build together.. Would you recommend Able Learner?

Kalim, No it didn't come up. I've used the class and yes it could be what I'm looking for, it seems I may build two PC's and see which work better.

[King Atticus]

You want to be good at a wide range of skills, and Factotum hasn't come up?

Factotum is an INT-driven class with all skills in-class. All of them. It also has a resource system that refreshes per encounter, giving it the ability to boost a lot of things by its INT score. If you cap out at 8th level in the game, you still get one of their best abilities - Cunning Surge. Factoti can also heal/Turn Undead a few times per day, cast a handful of arcane spells, use handfuls of Sneak Attack dice, and they get INT to their STR and DEX checks and skill checks.


You definitely ought to look it up, it's in Dungeonscape.

Factotum=Awesome. I'm playing my first Factoti right now and I love it. Not as optimal in combat as some of my other characters have been (knowledge devotion helps with this) but you get something for every situation. No matter what you face or what needs to be done, it's EXTREMELY gratifying to turn to the party and say: Oh yeah, I can do that...can't everybody? :smallwink:

[Brock Samson]

Don't forget about starting middle-aged if you want to get a slightly higher Int/Wid/Cha for the Str/Dex/Con penalty. At level 4 you can up your Int again and bam, more skill points if you just hit an even number.

Beguilers can still throw down Solid Fogs and Hastes and Greater Invisibilities, they're doing ok.

[Seharvepernfan]

I'd go with beguiler, and if you're worried about it being useless at high levels, take levels of prestige bard as you start getting there. That way you can at least make the rest of the party more badass when you can't fight a particular enemy.

[Red_Dog]

Factotum & Beguiler are arguably THE paragons of T3. The choice really depends on taste, how magical campaign is(go with Factotum if its really magical as skills are harder to stop thru magic if you are smart... and with the stratosphere Int score out better be = P and you STILL get spells!) and how much Minor Image abuse can your DM take without exploding and throwing you out of the room.

So yeah, from "I want a T3" guy you can NOT do better than these 2 yahoos ^^

Step bellow them are the ever present [I]Sword Sage Vs Psychic Rouge Vs Bard struggle so that is a different discussion ^^

P.S. Be mindful of Font of Inspiration if you are going Factotum. Its kind of like drugs... the more you take the harder to stop... come to think of it, the whole bloody class is like that! ^^

[Phaederkiel]

I can second the factotum. Play it straight to lvl 8 where it gets its best ability (take bonus actions), then take one lvl swordsage for the maneuvers that deal damage via concentration or substitute saves agains concentration - that gives you way better saves than any pally has.

The beauty of the factotum is the ability to bolster each skill once per day by your factotum level. Means that you can get 8 to any skillcheck you really want to succeed. At lvl 3 you gain your int bonus on all dex and strenght checks, at 4 you toss about some eightish sneak attack dice.

It is a great class.

(not that I do not like beguilers. They are great fun, too)

[Bloodgruve]

Factotum is the best skill monkey IMHO.

You gain Int+'s to all dex and str checks, this is amazing, think Initiative is a dex check also.

You get to choose your class skills.

You can add your Factotum level to any skill check that you have at least 1 rank in once per day.

I run an Iaijutsu Focus Factotum that does very well in combat and is a great skill monkey. I'm kinda MAD about it with high Int and Dex though. Gotta get creative on how you apply Flat Footed enemies for IF.

Beguiler X/ Archivist 1 with Versatile Spellcaster and a good spellcraft would be pretty fun also. Cast any divine spells you have recorded into your spell book + all your Beguiler spells spontaneously...

GL
Blood~

[Tenebris]

You were right to think of playing an Incarnate with the Able learner feat. Surprisingly, at level 5 your four ranks in chosen skills will be better than eight (and the very next level your essentia capacity improves :smallwink:). Maybe Incarnates cannot do everything you'd like your character to be able to, but their flexibility makes up for it.

Just shape Silvertongue Mask for social skills, Theft Gloves are also nice (though for none of skills you've mentioned). Hide & move silently are tricky. You'd have to spend a feat to shape Worg Pelt. For handling fights I'd suggest Dissolving Spittle and Astral Vambraces.

Summarizing (at lvl 5):
* Silvertongue Mask - brow
* Worg Pelt - feet (bind) - need a feat to shape it
* Theft Gloves - hand (bind)
* Astral Vambraces - arms
* Dissolving Spittle - throat

Here you can learn more of what you can do. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870566/Incarnate_by_the_numbers)

[Jodah]

I will second (fifth, whatever) the factotum idea. It definitely can face and skill-monkey away. You have an easy excuse for being prepared for random things. And you even get your bonuses per encounter so you are always fresh.

As an added bonus, you have healing starting at level 5 (or turning if you prefer) which is always a nice plus after a combat or two.


I run an Iaijutsu Focus Factotum that does very well in combat ... Gotta get creative on how you apply Flat Footed enemies for IF.

And this...This all the way.

If you don't like factotum, you cn always find a good amount of help here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88715)

[Kaeso]

Take a bard, trade bardic knowledge for bardic knack (PHB II), take the feat "jack of all trades" to gain half a rank in all skills. Voilà, you effectively have (half of your level) ranks in all skills. You can still distribute your skill points as normal, but you can now use all skill checks, and as a level 6 bard it's useful to automatically have 3 de facto ranks in an obscure skill like forgery.

[Particle_Man]

If you take factotum there is a feat called "font of inspiration". Since you will have a high int you will benefit from taking the feat lots of times for lots of inspiration points. I think at 8th level you could take it 4 times with starting int 18.

That is the downside though. Factotums have 6 skill points/level so you would need a high int and with a 20pb you will be hurting everywhere else.

Thus I would lean towards a rogue so that your int can be 14 and your other stats can be better too.

[Flickerdart]

That is the downside though. Factotums have 6 skill points/level so you would need a high int and with a 20pb you will be hurting everywhere else.
Factotums don't really need an "anywhere else". INT is all they care about.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Factotums don't really need an "anywhere else". INT is all they care about.

Straight Factotum can ditch the Able Learner. Although I don't personally advise using all of your feat on it, some people are a fan of taking ALL the Font of Inspiration. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606)

[Particle_Man]

Factotums don't really need an "anywhere else". INT is all they care about.

Not even Con? Hit points are pretty cool and a 20 pb is looking at con 12, int 18, everything else 8, isn't it?

A rogue would be (possibly) dex 14, con 14, int 14, wis 10, str/chr 8 (maybe switch around a bit - a face could use more chr, for example).

[Flickerdart]

Faerie Mysteries Initiate says hello.

[Rejusu]

Factotums don't really need an "anywhere else". INT is all they care about.

Disagree. Int doesn't increase your HP, your carrying capacity, or your base AC/Saves. You'll burn through your inspiration points in no time (afaik it costs IP to activate cunning defence) if you always need to boost your AC. Especially since you're restricted to light armour as it is.

However with 20PB you're not going to get anything good anyway. And Factotum is probably as SAD as it gets. But still a good Factotum should prioritise Int and Con and then try and have a good Charisma for social skills, and then put the rest into Dex->Str->Wis, in roughly that order.

Plus there's no point going 18 int and 8 for almost everything else. Yeah you'll have a +4 bonus to skills, but you'll also have a -1 penalty on most of them. As good as a Factotums "add int to this" ability is it's a lot better when backed up by good ability scores. With a 20pb I'd take a 16 in int, a 12 in Con, dump an 8 in Wis and a 10 in everything else.

The loss of 4 skill points and 1 skill point per level isn't going to hurt too badly in the short term (you can boost your int to 18 by 8th level) and it's worth negating the penalty on... pretty much everything really. Only place it's going to hurt is skills keyed off wisdom (not very many) as you're still dumping that.

MrCarter you should really slap your DM, 20PB is ridiculous. At least get him to give you 28, even 26 wouldn't be so bad as it'd allow you to get 18 int with the same stat distro as above. But 20 is absurd.

I'd recommend that if you're going Factotum then take the first Changeling rogue substitution level. You get some incredible bonuses to social skills (like being able to take 10 on them in situations that'd normally prevent you from doing so) and 10+int skill points per level. Honestly if you don't want to go Factotum then Changeling rogue actually fits what you're looking for fairly well too. It's basically a more social oriented rogue. You lose things like trapfinding though and it'll make you more MAD (which with such a rubbish PB you want to avoid) so really I think it's better just to dip the first level of it then go Factotum the rest of the way.

And convince your GM to give you at least a few more points to play with.

[mrcarter11]

Rejusu: Since you were so kind to reply with a longer reply, figured I could do you the courtesy of replying my own self.

First of many things, I hardly ever start with an 18 in something, it's to expensive, your idea of a 16 with a passing of other points around does seem a bit more natural to Me. Could you mention where the changling is? The race itself, and then the sub level. And as for the point buy being as low as it is, the DM, as it happens to be is a good friend of mine, who is attempting to make this a "gritty game". But he's advised it's a sandbox and that skills can and will play a very big part if you can use them.

[Rejusu]

Rejusu: Since you were so kind to reply with a longer reply, figured I could do you the courtesy of replying my own self.

First of many things, I hardly ever start with an 18 in something, it's to expensive, your idea of a 16 with a passing of other points around does seem a bit more natural to Me. Could you mention where the changling is? The race itself, and then the sub level. And as for the point buy being as low as it is, the DM, as it happens to be is a good friend of mine, who is attempting to make this a "gritty game". But he's advised it's a sandbox and that skills can and will play a very big part if you can use them.

Yeah, with point buy it's generally not a great idea to over invest in one skill. The cost in points is a big jump from a 16 to 18 and the penalties you take on everything else cancel out the benefit of getting 1 more on your int modifier. I'd still see if you can squeeze a little more points out of your DM though, even if it's only 2 more to alleviate the penalty on your wisdom or get another point of CON. There's gritty and there's just plain underpowered.

The Changeling and the Changeling rogue substitution levels are from Races of Eberron so no guarantee your DM will allow it but it's well worth looking into. If skills are going to be useful as your DM implies then Changeling Rogue into Factotum is probably going to be your best option I think. Changeling Rogue gives you a nice chunk of skill points at first level as well as the boost to your social skills, and Factotum gives you the bonuses needed to make those skills useful even with such low attribute scores.

You won't be that great in combat (in fact you'll be pretty bad) but you should dominate social situations. Changeling alone gives you +2 on bluff, intimidate, and sense motive checks as well as +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks when using change shape ability. They also have some pretty nice racial feats.

[mrcarter11]

Eh, decent SA if I can catch something flat footed. But yeah, combat won't be an all star in this build.

[Bloodgruve]

Eh, decent SA if I can catch something flat footed. But yeah, combat won't be an all star in this build.

This class can 'face' very well even with an Iaijutsu Focus build. IF is not precision damage so it works where SA doesn't.

My current build is Dark Creature templated Whisper Gnome Factotum 9 / Swordsage 1.

Dark Creature is LA+1 but you can buy it off. This gives you Hide in Plain Sight, if you successfully hide from someone they are considered Flat Footed against you. Concealment is still needed for this HiPS. You can remain hidden during an attack with a -20 hide penalty. I'm currently running +37ish hide.

Whisper Gnome allows you to be proficient in the Gnomish Quickrazor which is 'drawn' on every attack and allows for each attack to give Iaijutsu Focus. I have 1 to 5 attacks with +6d6 average per attack per round and can manage IF on each 90% of the time. Factotum 8 allows gives you an extra standard action for more attacks. Many other ways to give FF also.

Swordsage gives Child of the Night which I use for the 'enveloped in shadows' for Dark Creatures HiPS and concealment after 10' (DM approved). I also use maneuvers that give swift jump, 2 attacks and one that applies Flat Footed to the target.

On top of that I'll usually take Alter Self, Glibness, Disguise with Bluff and Diplomacy maxed for 'facing'. If you come to a pivotal check just add your class level.

Feats are TWF, Shadow Blade, Item Familiar( to bump IF) and Font if Inspiration x3

Very fun build and I dare say the funnest character that I've played.

GL
Blood~

[mrcarter11]

I've had one personal experience with IF and swore it off like a meth afterwards, never to try it again. My friend who is DM'ing this, doesn't support LA Buy-Off and sadly for this game ToB as well as CDiv and CChamp are off the table.

[Particle_Man]

If your DM is going for gritty, that is another argument for rogue. If you find some cheesy way to "Be teh Awesome!111!111" I assume that is going against the kind of campaign your DM is looking for.

I think you can get by with 14s, actually.

Human Rogue

Str 10
Dex 14
Con 10
Int 14
Wis 10
Chr 10

Nothing super-great, but nothing horrible either. You are fairly quick in mind and body and at least you don't have any negatives to any rolls.

Also, "sorta handle combat" means you need some skill there but not a lot. You could go Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Weapon Finesse, Quick Draw (for when social situations get anti-social) or Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Spring Attack (to keep your precious skin together - you don't have Tumble so you need some protection from Aoo when it is time to get away, but you can still get a sting in now and then).

Just my 2 cents.

[Bloodgruve]

I've had one personal experience with IF and swore it off like a meth afterwards, never to try it again. My friend who is DM'ing this, doesn't support LA Buy-Off and sadly for this game ToB as well as CDiv and CChamp are off the table.

I see. Still a great class for monkeying around.

With out the optimization I may lean slightly towards Beguiler though. They're strong out of combat and still have a lot of tricks in combat. Lots of skills and a fun spell list.

GL
Blood~