Is the Spiked Chain worth it?

[Madara]

Or rather, are exotic weapons worth a feat to get? In this case, I'd like your input on the Spiked Chain. Is it really worth a whole feat? Could it be included in a class's weapon proficiencies?

[gkathellar]

Spiked Chain is one of the very Exotic Weapons worth getting, though like most of those it favors certain types of character - dedicated trippers, Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade users, and Combat Reflexes + Reach builds.

The nice things about the Spiked Chain are manifold - finesse with a 2HF weapon, reach while threatening adjacent squares, bonuses to trip and disarm. As a result, it actually is a legitimate build choice for some melee characters.

Most other exotic weapons are crap, though (Gnomish Quickrazor is the only other really top-quality one).

[GreenSerpent]

Sugliin is actually pretty powerful, especially if wielded by a Goliath. 3d6 damage for being Large, one attack per turn limitation but that's negated once you get Sugliin Mastery.

[gkathellar]

Sugliin is actually pretty powerful, especially if wielded by a Goliath. 3d6 damage for being Large, one attack per turn limitation but that's negated once you get Sugliin Mastery.

... two feats for +3.5 damage over a Greatsword is worse than Weapon Specialization, guy.

[NOhara24]

Or rather, are exotic weapons worth a feat to get? In this case, I'd like your input on the Spiked Chain. Is it really worth a whole feat? Could it be included in a class's weapon proficiencies?

Yes it's worth a feat, for the most part. You just have to center your build around playing to the weapon's strengths. Also, make it Heavy (Weapon Material out of Magic of Faerun, p.179) since you're already spending the feat on it. Also, buy strongarm bracers and make it large.

So, we have:

Spiked Chain (2d4)
Large Spiked Chain (2d6)
Large, Heavy Spiked Chain (2d8)

And then throw on your standard magical enchantments and you'll have a very formidable weapon.

[Rejusu]

Or rather, are exotic weapons worth a feat to get? In this case, I'd like your input on the Spiked Chain. Is it really worth a whole feat? Could it be included in a class's weapon proficiencies?

Well worth it if you can fit it into your build. It pretty much is the best exotic weapon out there. It does cost a feat though which can be annoying when you're trying to pick it up along with all the other feats that a Spiked Chain build benefits from like Combat Expertise (prereq), Improved Trip, Knock-Down, Combat reflexes etc.

The advantages being finessable gives it are rather debatable as it costs yet another feat and Dex doesn't improve your damage. Better off just putting your best score in strength and having a Dex of +2 or +3. 2-3 extra AoO's (3-4 total) a round is still pretty good.


Sugliin is actually pretty powerful, especially if wielded by a Goliath. 3d6 damage for being Large, one attack per turn limitation but that's negated once you get Sugliin Mastery.

I think you mean 3d8, 3d6 would put it on the same level as a large greatsword or greataxe in which case it'd be even more pointless.


... two feats for +3.5 damage over a Greatsword is worse than Weapon Specialization, guy.

Agreed. The Spiked Chain is rare in that it's one of the few exotic weapons worth a feat to get. I don't think there's any that are worth two.

[Namfuak]

If you are going for a trip build, taking 2 levels in Wolf Totem Barbarian may be useful to get Improved Trip without having to take combat expertise. It may be helpful for you to give us an idea of what you want to do and what resources are available to you to see if a spiked chain would be optimal for you.

[Rejusu]

If you are going for a trip build, taking 2 levels in Wolf Totem Barbarian may be useful to get Improved Trip without having to take combat expertise. It may be helpful for you to give us an idea of what you want to do and what resources are available to you to see if a spiked chain would be optimal for you.

It depends if you want anything else Combat Expertise is keyed to like Improved Disarm. Plus is a 2 level dip worthwhile for just one feat? The first two levels of fighter give you enough bonus feats for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. And it's not like Combat Expertise is a bad feat in itself. I guess if you can't spare the 13 int for the prereq it could be worthwhile.

[gkathellar]

It depends if you want anything else Combat Expertise is keyed to like Improved Disarm. Plus is a 2 level dip worthwhile for just one feat? The first two levels of fighter give you enough bonus feats for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. And it's not like Combat Expertise is a bad feat in itself. I guess if you can't spare the 13 int for the prereq it could be worthwhile.

Namfuak is right in this particular case, since Barbarian 1 also gives you Whirling Frenzy. Fighter 2 is only better for Improved Trip if you need Expertise for other things.

[Dusk Eclipse]

But Barb 2 can also give you Pounce (key at higher level IMO), better HD, better skils, and rage which is a nice buff, or extra attacks (whirling frenzy) or even more AoO (ferocity).

[Flickerdart]

Wolf Totem is compatible with Spirit Totems, so you can get Pounce along with your Whirling Frenzy.

[Cieyrin]

... two feats for +3.5 damage over a Greatsword is worse than Weapon Specialization, guy.

Indeed. When looking at Exotics, you have to look at more than just the damage it does. Dwarven Waraxes aren't good b/c they deal an extra point of damage over Battleaxes, they're good b/c Dwarves can use them as Martial weapons and they have an ability in Exotic Weapon Master to get more out of Str.

I have a soft spot for Eagle's Claws, since you can learn to flurry with them without being some flavor of monk, they deal more than one type of damage and are basically Kukri+. Ramhammers let you bullrush on hit without having to be large for Knockback. Dwarven Warpikes are Halberd+, with increased damage and reach, which you can also switch your Dwarven martial proficiency to.

What it boils down to is when looking at exotics, they need to give you extra capabilities that martial weapons can't. Spiked Chains are the king of that trope.

[Namfuak]

But Barb 2 can also give you Pounce (key at higher level IMO), better HD, better skils, and rage which is a nice buff, or extra attacks (whirling frenzy) or even more AoO (ferocity).

I'm away from my books right now, but IIRC you do not get pounce until level 3 barbarian, and whirling frenzy can still be taken by a wolf totem barbarian. Again, being able to actually see his build would be really helpful, since it may not be even worth it to take levels in fighter or barbarian if he plans on being a warblade, but if he can't use ToB and wants to be a tripper then all these trade-offs are necessary to look into.

[DeltaEmil]

@Namfuak: You are wrong. You replace Fast Movement with the spirit totem lion pounce ability at first level.

[Flickerdart]

Ramhammers let you bullrush on hit without having to be large for Knockback.
Ramhammer only lets you make bull rushes with it. As far as I can tell, it doesn't actually allow you to do damage with the attack as well.

[Cieyrin]

Ramhammer only lets you make bull rushes with it. As far as I can tell, it doesn't actually allow you to do damage with the attack as well.

This is what I get for doing things from memory. Still, it does give you options you don't normally have. Unfortunately, it's not as well as written as I recall it being. :smallannoyed:

[GreenSerpent]

[QUOTE=Rejusu;12854394]
I think you mean 3d8, 3d6 would put it on the same level as a large greatsword or greataxe in which case it'd be even more pointless.
QUOTE]

Thanks, was in a hurry when I typed it and didn't bother to check.

To say nothing of what happens if you add on Monkey Grip/Strongarm Bracers... you're looking at a lot of hurt there. 4d8 hurt.

Also I suppose the Elven blades from Races of the Wild are worth it for the looks... I mean, they do look good. Maybe not for power, but looks they win on.

[gkathellar]

To say nothing of what happens if you add on Monkey Grip/Strongarm Bracers... you're looking at a lot of hurt there. 4d8 hurt.

Also I suppose the Elven blades from Races of the Wild are worth it for the looks... I mean, they do look good. Maybe not for power, but looks they win on.

Elven Courtblade is actually pretty decent, if only for being a 2H-finesse weapon (not as good as spiked chain, but eh). Finesse characters really need either bonus damage+TWF or PA, and PA is better in general - so that's actually solid.

Sugliin is genuinely awful, no matter how much you try to stack it up. 4d8 is nothing, just +7.5 damage total for three feats (or two and a magic item slot).

[Cieyrin]

Elven Courtblade is actually pretty decent, if only for being a 2H-finesse weapon (not as good as spiked chain, but eh). Finesse characters really need either bonus damage+TWF or PA, and PA is better in general - so that's actually solid.

The thing is, though, if you want to finesse with it, your damage tends to go down since you only get Dex to attack and you drop Str since it's not as important to you. That is, unless you go Champion of Corellon Larethian, then you can be totally dependent on Dex and forget about Str with a Courtblade. On the other hand, you don't get 1.5 Dex for two-handing it, so I'm back to at a loss for why two-handed finessable is desirable. :smallconfused:

Dualwielding a Thinblade and Lightblade with Improved Weapon Familiarity has a nice touch to it, since you can boost them both with Rapier feats, since they count as rapiers. Throw on Swashbuckler and Grey Elves look positively delicious with this, b/c we don't care about Str at all now, except for perhaps carrying capacity of that Mithral Full Plate we'd want to pursue on a Champion build...

[dextercorvia]

The thing is, though, if you want to finesse with it, your damage tends to go down since you only get Dex to attack and you drop Str since it's not as important to you. That is, unless you go Champion of Corellon Larethian, then you can be totally dependent on Dex and forget about Str with a Courtblade. On the other hand, you don't get 1.5 Dex for two-handing it, so I'm back to at a loss for why two-handed finessable is desirable. :smallconfused:

Dualwielding a Thinblade and Lightblade with Improved Weapon Familiarity has a nice touch to it, since you can boost them both with Rapier feats, since they count as rapiers. Throw on Swashbuckler and Grey Elves look positively delicious with this, b/c we don't care about Str at all now, except for perhaps carrying capacity of that Mithral Full Plate we'd want to pursue on a Champion build...

There are a few things which require finessable, but don't care if you are actually using weapon finesse. You mentioned one of them. You are probably better off with a Strength based Swashbuckler, using a two-handed finessable weapon and PA. Take that into CoCL to get 1.5 Str+Dex+Int to damage.

[gkathellar]

Or Spiked Chain + Shadow Blade + Swashbuckler 3 for the same thing on a better weapon.

Strength builds are definitely better - but if you want to do a Dex build, 2H is a good bet simply because of power attack.

[dextercorvia]

Or Spiked Chain + Shadow Blade + Swashbuckler 3 for the same thing on a better weapon.

Strength builds are definitely better - but if you want to do a Dex build, 2H is a good bet simply because of power attack.

I was just coming back after looking at the prereqs for CoCL to say the same thing. I thought you would be saving the feat on Shadow Blade to go that way -- whoa was I wrong.

[Red_Dog]

=>Cieyrin

Elvin Lightblade can be treated as a Shortsword. It is fineness-able. Short Sword is part of ShadowHand favorite weapons.

With this in mind => Hit and Run tactics Fighter lvl1 or 2 [hysterically enough he is from DotU hehe, but by RAW no issues at all] + Shadow Blade + Champion of Corellon Lantern lvl2 + Heavy Armor Proficiency Feat.

Funny enough burning only 4-ish feats (familiarity, finesse, shadow blade, armor proficiency) we get 3*DEX to dmg vs flat footed foe! Sword Sage has 101 way to make an opponent flat footed... Now we have Dual wielding almost full BAB (should get to 16) having character. So from Dex alone with expected say 8 attacks hasted that's about 100+dmg not too bad especially with wiz probably getting there? I mean its no 1000+ of a the old Hulk... but not TOO bad I guess? ^^

Just my to cents on Finesse Shenanigans.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You need to either burn two more feats (Martial Study and Martial Stance) or dip swordsage for at least a level for Shadow Hand stance

[dextercorvia]

Funny enough burning only 4-ish feats (familiarity, finesse, shadow blade, armor proficiency) we get 3*DEX to dmg vs flat footed foe!

You forgot the 4ish feats required for Champion of CL.

[gkathellar]

You need to either burn two more feats (Martial Study and Martial Stance) or dip swordsage for at least a level for Shadow Hand stance

Emphasis mine. Dipping swordsage is like dipping cleric, or Totemist - always a good choice.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Spiked Chain is worth it for the following reason:

1) Reach weapon that can hit closer in. For this alone, it's worth it. Increasing range without having a donut is a good thing.

2) The weapon can be used to both trip and disarm.

3) It's a two-handed weapon with a decent damage score. By itself, this isn't worth a feat, but when combined with the above, it makes the weapon perfectly viable for Ubercharging as well as Area Denial

Wolf totem for Improved Trip, then you get your WhirlPounce variants going.

If you can get Large size (not merely Powerful Build/Jotenbrunt), War Hulk has some interesting synergy by being able to attack everything in reach with an attack action, which means tripping everything in the area... this gets even more ridiculous when paired with Great Cleave and a whole swarm of mooks.