Tripping - really that good?

[Tr011]

I am currently making a new character and think about using a trip-tactic. But I'm not sure if it's really worth the effort. I'm not talking about a Barbarian here who benefits from getting larger in diffrent ways, I'm talking about some kind of rogue-build here.

First, I need to make sure I get enough reach:
1. ability to switch between Medium/Large via item
2. Spiked Chain
3. Aberration Blood + Inhuman Reach
= total reach of 15ft (medium or small) or 25ft. (large)

Then I need Combat Reflexes.

Then I need a good +mod to tripping:
1. Semi-homebrew feat that allows Dex instead of Str for tripping and cancels counter-tripping.
2. Improved Trip for +4.
3. Spiked Chain for +2.
4. Sweeping enchantment for another +2.
5. Living Chain for another +2.

So I end up with Dex+10+size to trip, with 26 Dex this would be +18 in medium, +15 in small or +21 in large.
Is this worth the two feats for tripping + two feats for reach + Combat Reflexes?

[gkathellar]

Why are you running this as a Dex build? You have a two-handed weapon - don't miss out on the full benefits of one without a good reason.

[Flickerdart]

It looks like CR3 beasties will have their trip modifiers in the low tens, so you'll definitely want to be Large all the time to ensure any kind of success.

[Coidzor]

IIRC, Orthodoxy is more that the other options are just that bad.

My reading of aberration blood was that it added +5 feet to your base reach. Then Spiked Chain would double that 10 feet of reach to 20 feet of reach while medium sized.

Shouldn't really need the inhuman reach feat with a spiked chain though, it's nice, yes, but shouldn't be essential, especially if you're going to be able to get big that consistently.

[Venger]

one thing that helps tripping a lot is factotum3 it allows you to add your int to all str/dex checks (including trip). depending on level availability/what your stats are, marshal provides motivate str if you have points in cha or just can't afford a high int/3 lvls in facotutum

[DogbertLinc]

If possible, a Setting Sun focused Swordsage will do well, here. The throwing maneuvers add an extra +4 to the trip check and can use dex normally.

Aditionallly, use the maneuver to throw someone, get an extra attack from Improved Trip, and another for flinging someone out of a square you threaten (works for awesome blow, so should work here). With reach you can drop them on a square you still threaten.

Also, swordsage can do rogue type well.

[Rejusu]

You want the knock-down feat from the SRD. Whenever you deal 10 damage with an attack get a trip as a free action. So you can still use your regular attack AND trip them up AND then attack them again.

Also playing an Elan (XPH) PsyWarr will remove the need for both an item and a feat. Elan has aberration type at no LA so you can qualify for Inhuman reach without having to take the Aberrant blood feat. Of course it's at your DM's discretion whether they allow that or not but frankly it just says the prerequisite is "Aberrant blood", if an abberation doesn't have aberrant blood what kind of blood do they have?

Psychic Warrior also gives you Expansion as a first level power, meaning you no longer need an item for it. Plus later on you can augment it to make yourself huge rather than just large.

To echo others why are you building this around Dex again? Each size category you increase means -1 to your Dex modifier. Where as your strength is actually boosted by increasing in size. Really you have to pick either reach or AoO's, it's difficult to have both.

If you want to go for more AoO's then check out the Monk/Psychic Warrior tripper build in the Psychic Warrior handbook. If you want to go reach then just keep what you're doing here and switch to a strength base.

[Snowbluff]

one thing that helps tripping a lot is factotum3 it allows you to add your int to all str/dex checks (including trip). depending on level availability/what your stats are, marshal provides motivate str if you have points in cha or just can't afford a high int/3 lvls in facotutum

Psychic Warrior learns Expansion for 2 size categories and can get Metamorphosis in an ACF or Feat for even more size bonuses.

Dammit swordsaged...

[Thrice Dead Cat]

You want the knock-down feat from the SRD. Whenever you deal 10 damage with an attack get a trip as a free action. So you can still use your regular attack AND trip them up AND then attack them again.

Minor note, the feat you're thinking of comes from Races of Stone while the feat in the SRD (PF and 3.5) is Awesome Blow. Awesome Blow is a standard action attack versus Knockback's "free" Power Attack-conditional bullrush. Considering how PF changed Power Attack, it'd be up to the DM/table to alter it into PF.

[Rejusu]

Minor note, the feat you're thinking of comes from Races of Stone while the feat in the SRD (PF and 3.5) is Awesome Blow. Awesome Blow is a standard action attack versus Knockback's "free" Power Attack-conditional bullrush. Considering how PF changed Power Attack, it'd be up to the DM/table to alter it into PF.

No, I'm talking about the Knock-down feat from the Divine feats section of the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm


Knock-Down (General)
Prerequisites
Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15.

Benefit
Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.

Quite literally it's whenever you deal 10 damage in melee (no matter which attack it's on) you get a free trip. Doesn't work for AoO's because you can't use free actions outside your turn, but it's awesome for getting extra attacks on your turn.

Knockback is a completely different feat to Knock-down however.

[Venger]

If you want to go for more AoO's then check out the Monk/Psychic Warrior tripper build in the Psychic Warrior handbook. If you want to go reach then just keep what you're doing here and switch to a strength base.

combat reflexes and robilar's gambit are a pretty hard combo to beat

[Diarmuid]

No, I'm talking about the Knock-down feat from the Divine feats section of the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm



Quite literally it's whenever you deal 10 damage in melee (no matter which attack it's on) you get a free trip. Doesn't work for AoO's because you can't use free actions outside your turn, but it's awesome for getting extra attacks on your turn.

Knockback is a completely different feat to Knock-down however.

Rej, you also appear to have missed the first line of that section that says "Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats."

Those are not feats open to taking by general monsters/PC's. The "Divine" part there is not referencing clerical, but more "Deific".

[ericgrau]

It looks like CR3 beasties will have their trip modifiers in the low tens, so you'll definitely want to be Large all the time to ensure any kind of success.

From a quick CR3 search the first three I found were 8, 6 and -8. The first one had 4 legs and the second a high strength. The third was tiny. I imagine most humanoids would have +2 to +4. Where'd you get teens? Did you mean CR 13? Some kind of permanent enlargement is nice but he only gets +3 from it instead of +5, assuming he's hard set on being dex based. Potions of enlarge person are handy before combat, but once the fight starts it's not worth the round.

Spiked chain doesn't give a +2 to tripping.

5 feats is a lot to pull this off. I assume you're dipping at least 2 fighter levels, if not 4?

[Rubik]

Rej, you also appear to have missed the first line of that section that says "Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats."

Those are not feats open to taking by general monsters/PC's. The "Divine" part there is not referencing clerical, but more "Deific".They can also obtain Power Attack. There's nothing about the requirements of the feat that inhibits it from being taken by anyone that otherwise qualifies for it, similar to feats like Hidden Talent, Mindsight, and Life Sense (even if they're not in the 'standard' feat sections of their respective books).

[Rejusu]

Rej, you also appear to have missed the first line of that section that says "Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats."

Those are not feats open to taking by general monsters/PC's. The "Divine" part there is not referencing clerical, but more "Deific".

Rubik beat me to it. There's nothing there that makes them deity exclusive, just because deities can obtain them doesn't mean no one else can. Plus several (if not all) of those feats appear in other sources. Disguise Spell and extra music are from Complete Adventurer, Eyes in the back of your head and Hold the Line are from Complete Warrior.

Somehow I doubt that these aren't feats open to taking by general PC's :smalltongue:

The feat in question (Knock-Down) is actually from Deities and Demigods though. However in Deities and Demigods the version there is just reprinted from Sword and Fist but with the first line changed from "Whenever you" to "Whenever the deity".

The feats section of Deities and Demigods actually opens:

In addition to the feats in the Player ’s Handbook, deities can also
obtain the feats described here, all of which were originally published
in other D&D game products. Because these feats (as well as
those in the Player’s Handbook) were originally designed for use by
player characters, many of them have prerequisites that any deity
automatically meets, such as a base attack bonus of +2 for Hold the
Line. Nevertheless, those prerequisites are retained in these feat
descriptions so that the descriptions will be consistent with the
way they were originally published.

So there's no restrictions on players actually taking these feats.

[beskargam]

Rej, you also appear to have missed the first line of that section that says "Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats."

Those are not feats open to taking by general monsters/PC's. The "Divine" part there is not referencing clerical, but more "Deific".

except for the part where it says Knock Down [general] (emphasis mine) after it, thus denoting it to be of equal availability.....


and swordsaged.........kinda-ish

[Tr011]

Why are you running this as a Dex build? You have a two-handed weapon - don't miss out on the full benefits of one without a good reason.

It's a dex build because I'm build a ninja. Of course THW fighting with high strength is awesome, but my last character was this and he was so good, that I couldn't top him with ease.



My reading of aberration blood was that it added +5 feet to your base reach. Then Spiked Chain would double that 10 feet of reach to 20 feet of reach while medium sized.
Reread the feat and you are right. So I would even have 20ft. reach in small size. This is pretty awesome because I benefit from the high dex and +hide in combat. But is there any way to negate the -4 to trip?



If possible, a Setting Sun focused Swordsage will do well, here. The throwing maneuvers add an extra +4 to the trip check and can use dex normally.
Hm. I can't take swordsage levels (my character is gestalt but doesn't have the freedom to use any class) but maybe I should let our swordsage-rogue do the tripping.



one thing that helps tripping a lot is factotum3 it allows you to add your int to all str/dex checks (including trip). depending on level availability/what your stats are, marshal provides motivate str if you have points in cha or just can't afford a high int/3 lvls in facotutum
Same as above^^.



You want the knock-down feat from the SRD.

Psychic Warrior also gives you Expansion as a first level power, meaning you no longer need an item for it. Plus later on you can augment it to make yourself huge rather than just large.

To echo others why are you building this around Dex again? Each size category you increase means -1 to your Dex modifier. Where as your strength is actually boosted by increasing in size. Really you have to pick either reach or AoO's, it's difficult to have both.

If you want to go for more AoO's then check out the Monk/Psychic Warrior tripper build in the Psychic Warrior handbook. If you want to go reach then just keep what you're doing here and switch to a strength base.

I don't wanna go hulk again (and monk/psychic warrior would be that kinda) so I'll keep the dex-base. I can't take psychic warrior anyways, and my party wouldn't like me to take the knockdown feat :/
But taking an aberration as race would be an option, I'll think about that.



Some kind of permanent enlargement is nice but he only gets +3 from it instead of +5, assuming he's hard set on being dex based. Potions of enlarge person are handy before combat, but once the fight starts it's not worth the round.

Spiked chain doesn't give a +2 to tripping.

5 feats is a lot to pull this off. I assume you're dipping at least 2 fighter levels, if not 4?
Ok, I misread the spiked chain, it's +2 to disarming. I'm dipping 2 fighter levels, but can exchange one for swashbuckler as well. Every fighter feat I take could be +1d6 sneak attack from that sneak attacking fighter variant, so I can take a lot feats, but they hurt my damage output. If I take both feats, I'll end up at 5d6 Sneak attack and 1d6+dex sudden strike (over 20 levels).

[Coidzor]

Somewhat interesting trick.

(Thug) Sneak Attack Fighter 3/Swashbuckler 2/Feat Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Feat Rogue +X

Take Daring Outlaw at 6th level, and now Feat Rogue levels progress sneak attack, grace, and give fighter bonus feats. One should still have enough BAB to get full iterative attacks as well.

[Flickerdart]

Somewhat interesting trick.

(Thug) Sneak Attack Fighter 3/Swashbuckler 2/Feat Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Feat Rogue +X

Take Daring Outlaw at 6th level, and now Feat Rogue levels progress sneak attack, grace, and give fighter bonus feats. One should still have enough BAB to get full iterative attacks as well.
But you don't get SA from Rogue. Surely, stacking Rogue with Swashbuckler for SA would only ever give you Swashbuckler levels worth of SA, because you gave away the Rogue's SA for Fighter Bonus Feats.

[Tr011]

But you don't get SA from Rogue. Surely, stacking Rogue with Swashbuckler for SA would only ever give you Swashbuckler levels worth of SA, because you gave away the Rogue's SA for Fighter Bonus Feats.

That, and I can't take Rogue levels anyway for this build. And BAB won't be my problem, as I said I'm going gestalt, so full BAB and d10 HD every level.

@Topic: I think I'll drop the tripping tactic and improve my other tactics instead.

[Suddo]

I'm dipping 2 fighter levels, but can exchange one for swashbuckler as well.

Dip 2 levels of Wolf-Totem Barbarian. It gives you Improved Trip at 2nd level in replace of Uncanny Dodge. Then trap Normal rage for Whirling Strike and your going to wreck some stuff when in melee. I suggest this over Fighter 2 which I assume is done to get 2 feats (Combat Expertise and Improved Trip), I also assume you don't need Combat Expertise for something else. Also if you can some how convence you DM to let you, you could go Whirling Rage Spirit Lion (?) Totem Barb 1 / Wolf Totem Barb 2 and get Pounce instead of Faster Movement too.
Have fun.

Also if you are optimizing Sneak Attack:
Rogue 2 / Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) 1 / Thug Fighter 2 / Spellthief 1 will net you 6d6 Sneak attack over 6 levels. And a couple of other cool abilities.

Assuming you want to do silly things:

Whirling Strike Pounce Barb 1 // Psychic Rogue 1: EWP: Spiked Chain
Wolf Totem Barb 2 // Martial Wizard 1: Combat Reflexes
Warblade 1 // Wizard 2: Combat Casting
Thug Fighter 1 // Wizard 3
Thug Fighter 2 // Rogue 1
Abjurant Chamion 1 // Swashbuckler 1: Your Homebrewed feat
Abj Champ 2 // Psychic Warrior 1: Knock-Down
Abj Champ 3 // Factotum 1
Abj Champ 4 // Factotum 2: Swashbuckler and Rogues Levels stack for Sneak Attack.
Abj Champ 5 // Factotum 3

That's a 10th level character with:
10 BAB
9th Level Wizard
5.5 Initiator Level
1st Level Psychic Rogue
1st Level Psychic Warrior
Whirling Rage 1/day
Pounce
Weapon Finesse
Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
5d6 Sneak Attack
Trip attempts are: 10 (BAB) + 4 (Improved Trip) + 2 (Sweeping) + 2 (Living Chain) + Dex + Int = 18 + Dex + Int
You also have some pretty decent amount of Skill points.
This is kind of min-maxy and may not at all be what you want but I was just entertaining myself.

So if you win initiative:
Rage Charge attack 3 different enemies. If you deal 10 or more damage you trip them (and will probably succeed) and get another attack. Oh and you will sneak attack if you went first (due to being flat-footed at first action).
If any of them attack you the get attack if they don't then move. I'm pretty sure standing up provokes an Attack of Opportunity. So you'll have a bunch of guys prone and nothing to do.
This build works best if you can LA buyoff Half Ogre.


Next 10 might look like:
Arcane Trickster 10 on one side
Spellthief 1
Psychic Warrior 2: Defensive Sweep
Swordsage 1: Master Spellthief
Warblade 2
Warblade 3
Warblade 4: Extra Rage
Warblade 5: Robilar's Gambit
Warblade 6
Warblade 7: Cleave?
Warblade 8
Warblade 9

So at 20:
+16 BAB (You can do Eldritch Knight on the one side if you want 20, you lose out on 5d6 Sneak Attack)
19th Level Wizard (20 Caster Level)
14 Initator Level
2nd Level Psychic Warrior
1st Level Psychic Rogue
12d6 Sneak Attack
Spellsteal 9th level spells
Whirling Rage 3/day
Pounce
Improved Trip
Weapon Finesse
Combat Reflexes
Trip attempts are: 20 (BAB) + 4 (Improved Trip) + 2 (Sweeping) + 2 (Living Chain) + Dex + Int = 28 + Dex + Int
Best with Half-Minotaur (Str +4, Con +2, Int -2, 1 LA) if you have LA-buyoff.
Or his lesser version: Half-Ogre (+6 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, 2 LA)
Otherwise you can probably just go Human (its always a good bet).

[Acanous]

Well, the first post was quite different from what I expected from the thread title. Cue me going on a bit of a tangent that may help you with your build, but is much more about tripping than critiquing your build.

The biggest reason Tripping is considered to be superior to other combat maneuvers like Grapple and Bull Rush is because Tripping does not have the weaknesses of the other two while combining their strengths.
With Grapple, you gain the grappled condition as well as your target, which means you take all the same penalties and restrictions. This can be built around, but one spell still borks your whole build, and it's a common spell (Freedom of Movement)

Bull Rushing is only good if you have a highly terrain-focused DM, and even then you need to be a 6th level Fighter to make it truly worthwhile (Dungeoncrasher) which most people consider too much of an investment in a dead class. While Bull Rush builds can be done, and are generally more effective than grapple builds at high levels, you're locked into Fighter->Barbarian.

With Trip, you can be pretty much any full-BAB class. Even some Partial-BAB classes make this work (Prone targets lose Dex to AC, meaning Spiked Chain Rogues can be MEAN in the right circumstances).
Because Trip works off of two things (Str bonus and Reach) that can both be done with items and require no feat/class features to start (Aside from proficiency) it makes for early, easy entry. With Bull Rush and Grapple, you NEED the feats *Before* you start using the abilities, else you take AOs. With Trip, you can get the feats *After* you start tripping things. Combat Reflexes improves you in general situations, as well. A lot more useful than Improved Unarmed Strike for Grapplers.

The feats that are useful for tripping also scale and get better as time goes by and levels go up. Combat Reflexes is great for Robilar's Gambit at lv 12, which is ALSO good for your trips if something say, dimension door'd in to avoid your AO range.

So to sum it up: Tripping builds are easier to enter with a multitude of classes, have much more beneficial feats, which can come later if what you're doing for PrC's or whatnot require the slots, they can't be countered by a single spell (Tripping works on things that fly by RAW, IIRC.) and they work in all level ranges, regardless of how the DM sets up terrain.

That's what makes tripping that good.

Not as good as say, a caster, but definately better than the other melee options.

[Occasional Sage]

Check out the old Horizon Tripper build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415). Really quite clever.

[Dsurion]

I've never met a group that would allow a player to be an aberration for a race, but would disallow Psychic Warrior and Tome of Battle.

I guess you could say your group is an... aberration :smallcool: I'm aware this happens. I just wanted to set up a pun.

[Rejusu]

Reread the feat and you are right. So I would even have 20ft. reach in small size. This is pretty awesome because I benefit from the high dex and +hide in combat. But is there any way to negate the -4 to trip?

Not without something like Powerful Build (which as far as I know is a racial trait only on medium creatures, all with -DEX SA's and +1 LAs too) but keep in mind if you're going to be small the -4 is probably the least of your worries. Remember you can only trip creatures that are one size category larger than you are, the same size, or smaller. A small creature therefore can only trip medium creatures and below, which limits your available targets somewhat.


I don't wanna go hulk again (and monk/psychic warrior would be that kinda) so I'll keep the dex-base. I can't take psychic warrior anyways, and my party wouldn't like me to take the knockdown feat :/
But taking an aberration as race would be an option, I'll think about that.

Not necessarily. You could easily adjust that build to be dexterity based instead. And a monk type would fit the "ninja" concept you're looking for. Problem with a dex build though is you're always going to be lacking in damage output. Also psychic warrior gives you the ability to manifest powers, which means you're less of a one-trick pony and have a great deal of versatility. Powers like Expansion and Compression give the ability to change size categories up and down on the fly, augmented they can make you any size from Tiny to Huge.

Also if you can't take Psychic Warrior or even Rogue levels then what exactly can you take? Is this just a lack of books issue? Because there's pretty much the entire Expanded Psionics Handbook on the SRD.



With Trip, you can be pretty much any full-BAB class. Even some Partial-BAB classes make this work (Prone targets lose Dex to AC, meaning Spiked Chain Rogues can be MEAN in the right circumstances).

That's a misconception actually. Being prone doesn't make you flat-footed. You keep your Dex bonus to AC but you just get a flat -4 AC penalty for melee attacks while prone. You also get a flat +4 AC bonus against ranged attacks. -4 to AC is still pretty decent though, especially at the lower levels when most enemies won't even have a higher Dex modifer than that.


Tripping works on things that fly by RAW, IIRC.

I'd love to see a DM that would let you pull that off. There needs to be another acronym for rules like this. Like Rules As Written Although Your DM Would Never Let You. But I guess RAWAYDWNLY is a little too long.

[Heatwizard]

I think I read somewhere that you could trip fliers; I could have sworn it was the SRD, but google turns up blank. I think it was that you can waste some of their movement with it, so if you can keep them from reaching their minimum movement speed, you can pull them out of the air.

[Rejusu]

I think I read somewhere that you could trip fliers; I could have sworn it was the SRD, but google turns up blank. I think it was that you can waste some of their movement with it, so if you can keep them from reaching their minimum movement speed, you can pull them out of the air.

There might be some special rules for performing a trip attack against a flyer but it'll probably have a different effect to a regular trip. The SRD details special rules for tripping a mounted opponent, a successful trip pulls them from their mount. But there's nothing there about flying enemies in the SRD, though I guess if the enemy had a flying mount you could use trip to pull them from it.

I did find a WotC article on it though:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a

Tripping Flyers: A creature flying with wings can be tripped. If the attempt succeeds, the creature stalls and falls 150 feet. See Rules of the Game: All About Movement for details (and a few unofficial additional rules about tripping flying creatures).

Creatures that fly without wings (and any creature with perfect maneuverability) can't be tripped while flying. If the creature is still in the air after stalling, it must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover and resume flying. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it lands prone and takes falling damage.

Frankly though I think rather than attempting to trip the rider it's probably more effective to trip the mount. The mount will likely get a +4 bonus because it'll probably have four legs. But if you can manage it you'll bring both rider and mount to the floor.

That article was a good read actually considering I'm doing a trip heavy build in my next game.

[Acanous]

That's a misconception actually. Being prone doesn't make you flat-footed. You keep your Dex bonus to AC but you just get a flat -4 AC penalty for melee attacks while prone. You also get a flat +4 AC bonus against ranged attacks. -4 to AC is still pretty decent though, especially at the lower levels when most enemies won't even have a higher Dex modifer than that.


My mistake.
Still, you don't have to be a fighter or barbarian to do a decent trip build. You could be practically any martial class and pull it off reasonably well.

I also seem to recall weapons with Reach allowing you to flank with yourself, due to a reading of the term "Allies" ("Allies" includes yourself unless noted otherwise by RAW, so if you threaten a square on two sides of an opponent like with a reach weapon, they are flanked. DMs might not let you get away with it, but it's legal)

[Rejusu]

My mistake.
Still, you don't have to be a fighter or barbarian to do a decent trip build. You could be practically any martial class and pull it off reasonably well.

I also seem to recall weapons with Reach allowing you to flank with yourself, due to a reading of the term "Allies" ("Allies" includes yourself unless noted otherwise by RAW, so if you threaten a square on two sides of an opponent like with a reach weapon, they are flanked. DMs might not let you get away with it, but it's legal)

From the SRD:

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Would seem to imply that it takes two to flank. Of course you could always make the case that you are a character friendly to yourself. But again I think this might be a case of RAWAYDWNLY.

[Acanous]

Yes, it's that first part that does it, if he's threatened by you, and by "A Character friendly to you" on the opposite corner.

The second part wouldn't pass unless the world is circular, though.

[Diarmuid]

except for the part where it says Knock Down [general] (emphasis mine) after it, thus denoting it to be of equal availability.....


and swordsaged.........kinda-ish

If you all are contect ignoring the fact that the entire section you're pulling the Knock Down feat from is targetted at statting out deities, that's your perogative.

The [General] in the description works exactly like it does in the normal Feat section for PC's indicating a difference between a General, Psionic, Metamagic, or Divine feat.

That some of the feats are duplicated somewhere else as available for PC's doesnt immediately validate the entire list for PC consumption.

I know I'm in the minority here, and I'm OK with that...but touting that these feats are intended for PC's like it's fact is just plain wrong.

[prufock]

You want the knock-down feat from the SRD. Whenever you deal 10 damage with an attack get a trip as a free action. So you can still use your regular attack AND trip them up AND then attack them again.

Just to note for the OP:
The 3.0 version of this feat was included in errata such that you could not combine the extra attack from Improved Trip with Knock-Down. When it was reprinted for 3.5, there was no such errata, so there is some argument about whether it still applies. Talk it over with your DM.

[dextercorvia]

Yes, it's that first part that does it, if he's threatened by you, and by "A Character friendly to you" on the opposite corner.

The second part wouldn't pass unless the world is circular, though.

You aren't occupying two spaces opposite of the creature. Threatening two squares is not enough.

[Rejusu]

If you all are contect ignoring the fact that the entire section you're pulling the Knock Down feat from is targetted at statting out deities, that's your perogative.

The [General] in the description works exactly like it does in the normal Feat section for PC's indicating a difference between a General, Psionic, Metamagic, or Divine feat.

That some of the feats are duplicated somewhere else as available for PC's doesnt immediately validate the entire list for PC consumption.

I know I'm in the minority here, and I'm OK with that...but touting that these feats are intended for PC's like it's fact is just plain wrong.

It's not "fact" but it IS RAW which in terms of D&D is as close to fact as you can get. In the rules as written there's NOTHING restricting you from taking these feats as a PC. The fact that all these feats are taken from alternate sources (mostly the complete books) only serves to further corroborate that. It's also not just "some" as far as I can tell it's ALL of them. I've even posted in this thread the relevant paragraph from Deities and Demigods that precedes this list of feats. I'll post it again for you:


In addition to the feats in the Player ’s Handbook, deities can also
obtain the feats described here, all of which were originally published
in other D&D game products. Because these feats (as well as
those in the Player’s Handbook) were originally designed for use by
player characters, many of them have prerequisites that any deity
automatically meets, such as a base attack bonus of +2 for Hold the
Line. Nevertheless, those prerequisites are retained in these feat
descriptions so that the descriptions will be consistent with the
way they were originally published.

Emphasis mine. The section may be designed for statting out deities. But as already pointed out a deity can also take Power attack. Just because these feats are ALSO included in a section designed for statting out deities doesn't preclude player characters from taking them. Especially when they're clearly designed for PC's to take.

But if you have such a problem with the fact I linked to this section of the SRD then I'll just direct the IP to Sword and Fist, where they can find the exact same feat.

Frankly touting that these feats aren't intended for PC's like that were fact (when they clearly are) is even more wrong in my opinion.


Just to note for the OP:
The 3.0 version of this feat was included in errata such that you could not combine the extra attack from Improved Trip with Knock-Down. When it was reprinted for 3.5, there was no such errata, so there is some argument about whether it still applies. Talk it over with your DM.

I'd argue that 3.5 material takes precedence over 3.0 material. Honestly in these kind of cases it's probably best not to mention it unless the DM brings it up. It's not particularly unbalanced (it's a 3 feat investment unless you dip something that gives improved trip for free) and under RAW you can't use it on AoO's. Plus to actually pull off the combo you have to succeed on your hit, deal 10 damage, succeed on a second hit against touch AC, beat the opposed check, then finally succeed on a third hit (although the defender gets a -4 penalty).

Honestly I'd say it's fairly reasonable.

[dextercorvia]

I'd argue that 3.5 material takes precedence over 3.0 material. Honestly in these kind of cases it's probably best not to mention it unless the DM brings it up. It's not particularly unbalanced (it's a 3 feat investment unless you dip something that gives improved trip for free) and under RAW you can't use it on AoO's. Plus to actually pull off the combo you have to succeed on your hit, deal 10 damage, succeed on a second hit against touch AC, beat the opposed check, then finally succeed on a third hit (although the defender gets a -4 penalty).

Honestly I'd say it's fairly reasonable.

Why do you say it doesn't work on AoOs?

[Tr011]

@Suddo: It's a nice build, but the problem is this: I can't use any class, just Tier 5 and lower. And I can't use good PrCs.


I've never met a group that would allow a player to be an aberration for a race, but would disallow Psychic Warrior and Tome of Battle.

I guess you could say your group is an... aberration :smallcool: I'm aware this happens. I just wanted to set up a pun.

See above^^. I could make a regular, nongestalt ToB build if I wanted to, but that's not what I want.
The rule with Tier 5+ classes was made to make bad classes playable in a party with full casters.

@Acanous: So Bull Rushing and Grappling is not an option. But there are still other alternatives, like a non-tripping AoO tactic.

Anyone got an idea how to buff the Trip check more?

[Diarmuid]

@Rej

Didnt want to clutter up any further with quoting, but I'm curious where your quote with the bolded section is coming from.

When I go to d20srd.org and go to the Divine Abilities and Feats section, it goes directly from Wound Enemy, to the short line saying "Feats - Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats.", directly into the entry for Blindsight, 5' Radius [General].

If I'd seen what you quoted written anywhere, I certainly would not be defending my stance the way I am. Can you provide a link to your source?

To your further point of going to S&F with the exact same feat...if that feat has the exact same name then the RAW you happily flung in my face would clearly say that using 3.0 material that has been explicityly updated in 3.5 is not allowed.

[Rejusu]

@Rej

Didnt want to clutter up any further with quoting, but I'm curious where your quote with the bolded section is coming from.

When I go to d20srd.org and go to the Divine Abilities and Feats section, it goes directly from Wound Enemy, to the short line saying "Feats - Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats.", directly into the entry for Blindsight, 5' Radius [General].

If I'd seen what you quoted written anywhere, I certainly would not be defending my stance the way I am. Can you provide a link to your source?

To your further point of going to S&F with the exact same feat...if that feat has the exact same name then the RAW you happily flung in my face would clearly say that using 3.0 material that has been explicityly updated in 3.5 is not allowed.

The quoted section is from the Deities and Demigods book, which is where the feat list in the SRD is taken from. But even without that there's nothing on the Divine Abilities and Feats section of the SRD that would exclude a PC from taking those feats. The line "Deities can obtain the feats described here" does not preclude anyone else from obtaining them provided they meet the prerequisites. Now if it said "ONLY Deities" I might agree with you, but then it wouldn't explain why all these feats are listed as being obtainable by PC's in other books.

Yes it's true that Sword and Fist is 3.0, but the SRD is 3.5 and Deities and Demigods is 3.5. Which means the feat listed there has been updated for 3.5. At any rate it's a moot point because Knock-Down is a perfectly valid feat for a PC.


Why do you say it doesn't work on AoOs?

An AoO grants you a single melee attack and Knock-Down gives you a trip as a free action, and you can only make free actions on your turn. You can still make a trip as an AoO (as a trip is a melee attack) and you still get an attack from impoved trip (as it just states you get a melee attack as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip), but you can't use the trip you get from Knock-Down during an AoO and do the attack-trip-attack combo. That can only be done during your turn.

[Gavinfoxx]

Tripping a flier causes it to stall...

[dextercorvia]

An AoO grants you a single melee attack and Knock-Down gives you a trip as a free action, and you can only make free actions on your turn. You can still make a trip as an AoO (as a trip is a melee attack) and you still get an attack from impoved trip (as it just states you get a melee attack as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip), but you can't use the trip you get from Knock-Down during an AoO and do the attack-trip-attack combo. That can only be done during your turn.

That would do it. I was thinking of the wording on Wolf's Trip ability.

[Coidzor]

Tripping a flier causes it to stall...

Where is that detailed again? I'm trying to remember and find it on d20srd.org, but failing. x.x

I recall some exception for perfect flight speeds and creatures like beholders which weren't using physical means to fly.

[Rejusu]

Where is that detailed again? I'm trying to remember and find it on d20srd.org, but failing. x.x

I recall some exception for perfect flight speeds and creatures like beholders which weren't using physical means to fly.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a
2-part WotC article all about trip attacks, I linked it on the first page of this thread but it's easy to miss.

[mikau013]

Where is that detailed again? I'm trying to remember and find it on d20srd.org, but failing. x.x

I recall some exception for perfect flight speeds and creatures like beholders which weren't using physical means to fly.

AFAIK it was one of the many houserules skip wasn't realising he was making when discussing the rules that were later put in the Rules Compendium to allow him to save face.

[Suddo]

just Tier 5 and lower. And I can't use good PrCs.

Damn, let me see if I can figure anything out... Nope sorry. I can do a purely Tier 4 build but Tier 5 just sucks.

[Tr011]

My build is almost complete and doesn't suck at all. To be honest it has a class that would be rated low Tier 4, but DM said it's ok. Since the class is not official 3.5 I don't think you guys will know it, but it's a kind of full BAB monk with some other class features.

[olentu]

Where is that detailed again? I'm trying to remember and find it on d20srd.org, but failing. x.x

I recall some exception for perfect flight speeds and creatures like beholders which weren't using physical means to fly.

The proper place that this is detailed is the rules compendium.

[candycorn]

The proper place that this is detailed is the rules compendium.

To be more specific, Rules Compendium, page 145, under the section on tripping and flying creatures.

Technically, it applies to all winged creatures that are tripped, regardless of what their maneuverability is, or whether they are actually using those wings to fly. If the creature has wings, and it is tripped, it falls.

So beware, penguins with Fly spells.

EDIT: Or, sadly, penguins with Levitate.

Or raptorans tripped while jumping a pit.

[shadow_archmagi]

Is there a way for small creatures to take advantage of trip? I feel like it'd be consistent with what I know about 3.5 for there to be a feat that let you ignore size penalties when tripping.

[prufock]

I'd argue that 3.5 material takes precedence over 3.0 material. Honestly in these kind of cases it's probably best not to mention it unless the DM brings it up. It's not particularly unbalanced (it's a 3 feat investment unless you dip something that gives improved trip for free) and under RAW you can't use it on AoO's. Plus to actually pull off the combo you have to succeed on your hit, deal 10 damage, succeed on a second hit against touch AC, beat the opposed check, then finally succeed on a third hit (although the defender gets a -4 penalty).

Honestly I'd say it's fairly reasonable.

I agree; not certain how I'd rule on this, but I'd probably allow it since it gives the melee types a nice trick.

On the other hand, the text you quoted about Deities and Demigods (3.0 book) feats being from other sources (Sword and Fist, also a 3.0 book that had the errata) seems to indicate that the errata should still apply though it wasn't updated itself.

EDIT:

Is there a way for small creatures to take advantage of trip? I feel like it'd be consistent with what I know about 3.5 for there to be a feat that let you ignore size penalties when tripping.

Confound the Big Folk feat from Races of Stone. See the Tiny but Deadly (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872846/I_May_Be_Tiny,_But_Youre_Dead:_the_other,_melee_Ki ller_Gnome,_for_your_pleasure.) gnome build.

[dextercorvia]

Confound the Big Folk feat from Races of Stone. See the Tiny but Deadly (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872846/I_May_Be_Tiny,_But_Youre_Dead:_the_other,_melee_Ki ller_Gnome,_for_your_pleasure.) gnome build.

Races of the Wild, actually.

[Rejusu]

I agree; not certain how I'd rule on this, but I'd probably allow it since it gives the melee types a nice trick.

On the other hand, the text you quoted about Deities and Demigods (3.0 book) feats being from other sources (Sword and Fist, also a 3.0 book that had the errata) seems to indicate that the errata should still apply though it wasn't updated itself.

My mistake, I thought Deities and Demigods was 3.5. Still the SRD is 3.5 so I'd still maintain that takes precedence. If it's not errata'd in the SRD it's not errata'd. Plus melee types deserve to be thrown a bone or two so they're not completely out shined by casters. I'm doing a tripper Psychic Warrior for my next campaign and I fully plan on playing with this combo. Then again I fully expect my DM's first words to be "Welcome to the kingdom of the Oozes!"

[shadow_archmagi]

Then again I fully expect my DM's first words to be "Welcome to the kingdom of the Oozes!"

That's when you pull out your amulet of acid immunity and manifest Straws of the Beast

[shadow_archmagi]

Query:

Fade Into Violence says that one enemy can't attack you unless he beats your bluff check, as long as you're unarmored and unarmed.

Does Tripping count as an attack?

Because a Tibbit (Read: Housecat) character who just wandered through fights tripping people would be pretty great.

[dextercorvia]

Does Tripping count as an attack?.

Yes. It is usually an attack action, and you initiate it by making a melee touch attack.

[Rejusu]

Query:

Fade Into Violence says that one enemy can't attack you unless he beats your bluff check, as long as you're unarmored and unarmed.

Does Tripping count as an attack?

Because a Tibbit (Read: Housecat) character who just wandered through fights tripping people would be pretty great.

Yes it does. And my is that feat terrible in any encounter with more than a single enemy (read: most of them).