[PF] PCs That Want To Be Undead

[ArcGygas]

My IRL game where I'm GM has come to a bit of a crossroads. Two members of the party want to become undead; one a Lich, the other a Graveknight.

While this fits the character concepts (the wizard seeking perfection and the warrior that wants to be able to fight forever) they are playing, part of me wonders if this is an awful idea, as both templates are quite powerful.

Is there a way to give them these templates without them completely outclassing the other members of the party? Or without gimping them?

[deuxhero]

Necropolitan?

[ArcGygas]

Except that's 3.5. The rest of the group would throw a fit if I allowed 3.5 material, as they wanted to borrow some stuff from various splatbooks and the like.

So, Pathfinder and Pathfinder only. No third party material.

[JonRG]

What level are they now?

There's the lich Savage Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a), though there's likely some 3.5 --> PF tweaking required. You'd have to invent your own progression for the graveknight, but it shouldn't be too difficult with the lich's as a guide.

EDIT: I see there's a ban on 3.5 material, but it's more of a template delivery system than anything inherently 3.5.

[ArcGygas]

What level are they now?

There's the lich Savage Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a), though there's likely some 3.5 --> PF tweaking required. You'd have to invent your own progression for the graveknight, but it shouldn't be too difficult with the lich's as a guide.

EDIT: I see there's a ban on 3.5 material, but it's more of a template delivery system than anything inherently 3.5.

They are level 12, and have some down time, about 3 months.

I have considered using something like that, but the group would say it's from 3.5 and riot, so no dice. Don't want to show favoritism, and all that.

Also, Nyarai, awesome looking avatar. Although not entirely sure what it is!

[Ravens_cry]

Dhampir (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/dhampir)?
They have some of the traits of undead, like healing from negative energy and a quasi-immunity to negative levels.
Besides end game level 20 caps, or the upcoming Ultimate Races book, I can see no way at present for a PC in Pure Pathfinder to become truly undead without making them evil in the process.

[Jack Zander]

Why don't you ask the other players if there are any templates they'd like to have also? Then you can have them all go questing together to gain the templates each PC desires.

[ArcGygas]

Dhampir (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/dhampir)?
They have some of the traits of undead, like healing from negative energy and a quasi-immunity to negative levels.
Besides end game level 20 caps, or the upcoming Ultimate Races book, I can see no way at present for a PC in Pure Pathfinder to become truly undead without making them evil in the process.

Well, to be fair, I never said they weren't evil. They are evil, since it apparently matters. And in 12 levels, the most damage they've done to their fellow party members was an accidental maximized fireball in the room the Druid was in (no one knew she was in there!). They're just less Xykon, more Redcloak.


Why don't you ask the other players if there are any templates they'd like to have also? Then you can have them all go questing together to gain the templates each PC desires.

I've asked, but they've expressed no interest in templates, certain magic items, or... anything that would make this a lot easier.

[JonRG]

Even if it's written by Sean K. Reynolds, who now works for Paizo? That's unfortunate. I'm reading over the templates' requirements, and this doesn't seem like something they'll be able to tackle in three months.


Also, Nyarai, awesome looking avatar. Although not entirely sure what it is!

Why thank you! Derjuin drew it. :smallbiggrin:

It's Grand Apothecary Putress from WoW. He's just an undead; the 'face' is a mask. He's pretty awesome (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qfyuC9MQGI) though.

[ArcGygas]

Even if it's written by Sean K. Reynolds, who now works for Paizo? That's unfortunate. I'm reading over the templates' requirements, and this doesn't seem like something they'll be able to tackle in three months.

If use that for the base, I'd have a Planar Shepard and Divine Metamagic; Persist coming from the other two players. That doesn't balance well for the Lich/Graveknight, sadly.


Why thank you! It's Grand Apothecary Putress from WoW. He's pretty awesome (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qfyuC9MQGI).

Ahh, so it is! Very cool.

... and now I can't help but wonder if one could make an Alchemist Lich.

[Laniius]

What are the other players being? If these two players want to be powerful, let them be and give the other players some form of boost, and edit your monsters accordingly (class levels, templates, etc.) As long as the players are relative towards each other their opponents can be modified.

[ArcGygas]

What are the other players being? If these two players want to be powerful, let them be and give the other players some form of boost, and edit your monsters accordingly (class levels, templates, etc.) As long as the players are relative towards each other their opponents can be modified.

The party consists of a NG Druid (Menhir Savant), a Cleric of Nethys, a Transmutation specialized Wizard, and a Armored Hulk Barbarian.

The first two are pretty good optimizers and wanted to do Planar Shepard and DMM before being told it was strictly PF. They're incredibly powerful in their own rights. The Wizard is our best optimizer by a good margin, but he's held off on breaking my campaign (which I'm thankful for). The Barbarian does well because the other three casters dump all their buffs on him and let him wreck stuff. He's crit-one-shotted two boss fights thus far (not that I'm going to complain).

[Coidzor]

Frank and K's redux of the Swordwraith?

[navar100]

Which XP progression are you using - Fast, Medium, or Slow? Pathfinder offers a convenient way to simulate 2E's differing XP progression for classes. You can have the undead characters use the Slow advance while everyone else use the Medium or Fast depending upon taste. Metagame admit you're concerned about balance parity among the party, but you're still willing to work with the players to achieve their goals and this is a good compromise. In game explain the slow advancement is just a natural happenstance of being undead. That is why NPC liches aren't Uberpowerful Overlords of the World already despite being liches for a very long time. The price of existing forever is the longer time it takes to learn new things. Just like Elves.

[Brock Samson]

Say perhaps this takes a long long time to learn, not just 3 months. But after 3 months they're starting to show "symptoms" or their newfound changes. Perhaps just start adding parts/portions of what you'd get as a Lich or Graveknight as time passes. So instead of being immune to mind-affecting spells, suddenly you have a +x bonus that eventually with time turns into immunity. Perhaps this is too much like a savage progression, but don't call it that, don't treat it like that, and your party might be ok with it.

Maybe tell them at some point they'll have to sacrifice a full level for it to fully manifest? And lots of cash?

[ArcGygas]

Frank and K's... what?

-Googles it-

Huh... that might work. It's a good fallback plan, although loses some of the "unkillable machine" aspect the player was looking for.

As for Experience progression, the group is already on slow (their idea, not mine, because they wanted to drag out the real meat and potato levels [6-14]). I suppose I could bump the Cleric and Druid to Medium. Something I will definitely consider, then.

[ArcGygas]

Say perhaps this takes a long long time to learn, not just 3 months. But after 3 months they're starting to show "symptoms" or their newfound changes. Perhaps just start adding parts/portions of what you'd get as a Lich or Graveknight as time passes. So instead of being immune to mind-affecting spells, suddenly you have a +x bonus that eventually with time turns into immunity. Perhaps this is too much like a savage progression, but don't call it that, don't treat it like that, and your party might be ok with it.

Maybe tell them at some point they'll have to sacrifice a full level for it to fully manifest? And lots of cash?

Hmm, also a good idea. Just borrow the progression from the template... that could work.

And level loss is probably good compensation... Although, I feel as though the wizard might complain about being a level behind the Druid and Cleric. He may just have to suck it up, then, a trade-off for all his immunities and stat bumps.

Gold cost is definitely not an issue at the moment. They've got a good chunk of wealth just sitting around, burning holes in their pockets.

[Brock Samson]

Immunity to Mind-Affecting Spells ALONE is worth a heafty chunk of XP, not to mention level-drain and such (forgive me if there's a significant difference in 3.5 and PF, I'm only familiar with PF). If he's seeking Lichdom he should EXPECT it to balance out somehow if the rest of the party is not getting the same cheddar as he is.

[demigodus]

The pathfinder srd has the lich template as giving CR+2. You could use that to justify a 2 levels level adjustment.

However, rather then having the wizard drop in levels, have the level adjustment kick in as they level. They are level 12 right now right? Have the wizard acquire the lich template when they hit lvl 13, and tell him having the lich template won't allow him to level this time, and next level. Then, when the party hits lvl 14, the lich-wizard will still be lvl 12. After that, he can start lvl'ing with the party again.

[Curious]

If you are willing to let one of them swap classes mid-game, the Knight of the Sepulcher (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin/archetypes/paizo---antipaladin-archetypes/knight-of-the-sepulcher) Antipaladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/antipaladin) archetype becomes undead as it's capstone.

[Keneth]

The templates are quite a boost in power. You have several options. Firstly, you can switch them to slow XP progression as already suggested. Secondly, you can buff the other two players, even if they haven't expressed a desire for anything specific, they likely won't look a gift horse in the mouth. Lastly, you can decide that it's not appropriate for them to acquire these templates and then continue adventuring. The mentality of the undead changes considerably with the transformation and they would not be able to continue as they are now.

[Laniius]

The party consists of a NG Druid (Menhir Savant), a Cleric of Nethys, a Transmutation specialized Wizard, and a Armored Hulk Barbarian.

The first two are pretty good optimizers and wanted to do Planar Shepard and DMM before being told it was strictly PF. They're incredibly powerful in their own rights. The Wizard is our best optimizer by a good margin, but he's held off on breaking my campaign (which I'm thankful for). The Barbarian does well because the other three casters dump all their buffs on him and let him wreck stuff. He's crit-one-shotted two boss fights thus far (not that I'm going to complain).

How about letting your other players have equivalent templates? Like an animal lord for your barbarian or druid?

[Blyte]

Dhampir with the sanguine sorcerer bloodline is pretty vampy

[Novawurmson]

Also consider Necromantic Affinity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/necromantic-affinity) for a quick positive energy/negative energy reversal.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

You could try the Pathfinder Race Building Playtest. It's a bit of a read, but it has options for both undead and semi-undead PCs. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy8osf