How is Durkon a cleric of Thor? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Morty

2012-03-07, 01:34 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html
we got Neutral good cleric for evil (or Chaotic Neutral since Loki was a trickster god in Norse legends).
Kinda like Eberron even though Rich had beef with it.

:smallconfused: Where does it say the cleric of Loki is Neutral Good?
Anyway, this question comes up every once in a while, but we have no definite answer, but the most obvious one is that Thor is Neutral Good rather than Chaotic Good as most people assume. That, or the OoTSverse doesn't adhere to the one-step rule, but we have no proof for that.

tyckspoon

2012-03-07, 01:45 PM

I like to think Durkon didn't actually choose to be a priest of Thor; he felt called to be a Cleric, sure, but his devotion was to the entire pantheon, not a particular god. So he went to the temple(s), and the High Priest went "hmm.. well, Thor's temple could use a new acolyte. You're a cleric of Thor now." And Durkon, being the dutiful Lawful dwarf that he is, just went along with it. He'd be much happier with a different god.. but if you remember what he told Hilgya, 'being happy' isn't what being a Dwarf is about.

Gift Jeraff

2012-03-07, 02:11 PM

I like to think certain deities allow for some leeway for races tied to them. For example, 3/5 of Tiamat's babies are usually Chaotic, yet she is Lawful. Likewise, the Dark One is Lawful but one of the major goblinoids races tends to be Chaotic. Are they going to tell a huge chunk of their children "no" when they want to directly serve them and do their bidding? So perhaps Thor is tied to dwarves in a similar manner.

An alternative is that the Law-Chaos axis isn't that important, especially since they are not at war in the Upper Planes, and in fact Good tends to share a common goal (opposition to Evil, whereas Evil is not necessarily opposed to Good).

Plus the OOTSiverse also has weird things like clerics of all alignments and paladins getting their powers from the Twelve Gods as a group. Is "Lawful cleric worshipping Chaotic deity" any stranger than "paladin worshipping pantheon which includes at least 1 evil deity"?

SoC175

2012-03-07, 02:21 PM

Eldray

2012-03-07, 02:32 PM

Maybe Durkon believes that Thor is lawful, and Thor just doesn't care? (due to being chaotic)

Narren

2012-03-07, 02:39 PM

What in this strips leads you to the conclusion that the cleric is not evil?

I don't think he did anything to make us assume he was evil, but he certainly didn't do anything to make us assume he was good either. In fact, he mentions in 603 that he was on temple duty, so he memorized mostly healing spells. Good clerics never need to memorize healing spells, because they can convert any spell known to a cure spell. So he's probably neutral or evil.

tyckspoon

2012-03-07, 03:06 PM

I don't think he did anything to make us assume he was evil, but he certainly didn't do anything to make us assume he was good either. In fact, he mentions in 603 that he was on temple duty, so he memorized mostly healing spells. Good clerics never need to memorize healing spells, because they can convert any spell known to a cure spell. So he's probably neutral or evil.

The spontaneous casting only applies to the Cure X Wound series for HP damage. 'Healing' can also cover poisons, diseases, curses, ability damage, and other more exotic forms of injury, and the spells for those would still have to be memorized.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-03-07, 03:16 PM

I think it's likely, though, that Loki is either Evil (and therefore can't give his clerics spontaneous cure spells) or one of the Neutral deities that only hands out spontaneous inflict spells, not one or the other (like LN death goddess Wee Jas), simply given his rep as a god of destruction and chaos. That cleric certainly acts Neutral to start with, and with Belkar's "help" might have headed on down the alignment slope in his last appearance.

As for Durkon...the one-step rule is stupid.

Winter Light

2012-03-07, 03:19 PM

Wasn't Loki established as being CE waaaay back when Hilgya was around?

Jay R

2012-03-07, 03:39 PM

He has the wrong alignment, and he drinks beer. Which of these is most important to Thor?

Bastian Weaver

2012-03-07, 03:41 PM

What do you mean "Durkon would've been happier with another god"? Durkon loves Thor! In a purely heterosexual way.

MesiDoomstalker

2012-03-07, 03:57 PM

What do you mean "Durkon would've been happier with another god"? Durkon loves Thor! In a purely heterosexual way.

I believe the phrase is "No homo." I'm curious how Durkon's accent would pronounce that.

Bastian Weaver

2012-03-07, 04:02 PM

Let me quote Durkon on that, from On the Origins of PCs:

I love me got Thor with all me heart - inna strictly heterosexual "buddies" kinda way. Not tha there's anything wrong with tha alternative.

jere7my

2012-03-07, 04:13 PM

I believe the phrase is "No homo."

The phrase is only "no homo" if you're trying to be douchey and offensive.

MesiDoomstalker

2012-03-07, 04:17 PM

The phrase is only "no homo" if you're trying to be douchey and offensive.

Yes I know. I despise the phrase, its derogatory to myself and those like me, but it seemed Bastian was trying to say it without actually saying it. If I'm wrong, I apologize in advance Bastian.

Anarion

2012-03-07, 04:17 PM

Because Durkon drinks lots of beer, wields a hammer, enjoys growing to huge proportions from time to time, and adheres to a number of philosophical tenets of Thor (such as his views about intercourse before marriage and his interpretation of weather).

Jasdoif

2012-03-07, 04:21 PM

Courtesy of The Index of the Giant's Comments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220195):

The Dwarven god Thor (http://web.archive.org/web/20070220022000/http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7283): OOTS Thor is not based off of D&D Thor. Until referenced in the comic, the Nordic legends / mythology does not exist in OOTSverse.To sum up the linked web archive page (from older forum times), the only significance of the name "Thor" in this case is that it's quickly associated with a Nordic-style battle god.

As for Durkon...the one-step rule is stupid.I think it makes some sense in general, given how prolific alignment domains are. Would a deity with special control over Good (as represented by being able to grant access to the Good domain) be willing/able to channel his/her/its divine power through an evil individual, whose own alignment directly conflicts with said power?

Though that doesn't really explain why a Neutral Good deity wouldn't accept Lawful Neutral, True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral clerics...or why only True Neutral deities accept True Neutral clerics, for that matter.

MesiDoomstalker

2012-03-07, 04:22 PM

...such as his views about intercourse before marriage...

They actually seem to differ greatly in this aspect. If I could remember the random cut-a-way joke where Thor knocks up the fertility goddess, I'd link it. But I don't remember it, so someone else can link it if they remember it. That'd be awesome.

Bastian Weaver

2012-03-07, 04:28 PM

I despise the phrase, its derogatory to myself and those like me, but it seemed Bastian was trying to say it without actually saying it. If I'm wrong, I apologize in advance Bastian.

Nah, it's cool. I was just quoting that moment from Origins (the part that I remembered) because it seemed appropriate.
Besides, when I want to say something derogatory, I like to actually say it - more fun that way! :smallwink:
As to Durkon's and Thor's thoughts on, um, fertility - well, Durkon DID have intercourse before marriage and didn't seem to think it was wrong. That is, until he found out the lady's husband was still alive. I doubt that the fertility goddess was married, so there's nothing wrong about Thor's behaviour, from dwarven point of view.

Obnoxious Hydra

2012-03-07, 04:35 PM

Like Jasdoif said, the OOTSverse gods are based off the original mythological deities and The Giant's own ideas: not any existing DnD version. So, unless The Giant has stated Thor is Chaotic in the OOTSverse, it's probably safe to assume he's also lawful.
To be honest, he hasn't really displayed any chaotic behaviour other than the occasional quick joke,.

jere7my

2012-03-07, 04:36 PM

Yes I know. I despise the phrase, its derogatory to myself and those like me, but it seemed Bastian was trying to say it without actually saying it. If I'm wrong, I apologize in advance Bastian.

Ohhhh. Sorry for the unjustified maligning of your character there! :smallredface:

MesiDoomstalker

2012-03-07, 04:37 PM

Nah, it's cool. I was just quoting that moment from Origins (the part that I remembered) because it seemed appropriate.
Besides, when I want to say something derogatory, I like to actually say it - more fun that way! :smallwink:
As to Durkon's and Thor's thoughts on, um, fertility - well, Durkon DID have intercourse before marriage and didn't seem to think it was wrong. That is, until he found out the lady's husband was still alive. I doubt that the fertility goddess was married, so there's nothing wrong about Thor's behaviour, from dwarven point of view.

I hadn't read Origins so I didn't know you were referencing something. Agian, I apologize. And you make a fair point about the extramarital relations, Durkon's beef was she was still married, not that he and Hilgya weren't married.

EDIT:

Ohhhh. Sorry for the unjustified maligning of your character there! :smallredface:

No worries, man. Its all good! :smallbiggrin:

Kish

2012-03-07, 06:42 PM

The spontaneous casting only applies to the Cure X Wound series for HP damage. 'Healing' can also cover poisons, diseases, curses, ability damage, and other more exotic forms of injury, and the spells for those would still have to be memorized.
The cleric of Loki would need to be quite...strange...to be
1) A cleric of an evil god.
2) Who can channel positive energy.
3) And fills all his spell slots with ailment cures...
4) ...except for the Inflict Wounds spells he cast during the fight with the Thieves' Guild.

Alternatively, he would not need to be unusual at all to be
1) A neutral cleric of an evil god.
2) Who, being a neutral cleric of an evil god, channels negative energy.
3) And fills all his spell slots with healing spells of all sorts when he expects to only be healing that day...
4) ...and spontaneously converts some of them to Inflict spells at need.

He is certainly not, as t209 claimed, established as Neutral Good. Since he seemed decent enough and even balked at killing someone as vile as Pete until sufficiently pushed by Belkar, he was probably True or Chaotic Neutral; he was certainly a negative energy channeler.

Wasn't Loki established as being CE waaaay back when Hilgya was around?
No.

Loki is established as evil in Start of Darkness, and suggesting that, of all mythological figures, Loki might be non-Chaotic would be very strange. But his alignment is never actually stated anywhere.

Howler Dagger

2012-03-07, 07:33 PM

According to Hilgya, Loki is chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html).

Feathersnow

2012-03-07, 07:35 PM

The cleric of Loki would need to be quite...strange...to be
1) A cleric of an evil god.
2) Who can channel positive energy.
3) And fills all his spell slots with ailment cures...
4) ...except for the Inflict Wounds spells he cast during the fight with the Thieves' Guild.

Alternatively, he would not need to be unusual at all to be
1) A neutral cleric of an evil god.
2) Who, being a neutral cleric of an evil god, channels negative energy.
3) And fills all his spell slots with healing spells of all sorts when he expects to only be healing that day...
4) ...and spontaneously converts some of them to Inflict spells at need.

He is certainly not, as t209 claimed, established as Neutral Good. Since he seemed decent enough and even balked at killing someone as vile as Pete until sufficiently pushed by Belkar, he was probably True or Chaotic Neutral; he was certainly a negative energy channeler.

No.

Loki is established as evil in Start of Darkness, and suggesting that, of all mythological figures, Loki might be non-Chaotic would be very strange. But his alignment is never actually stated anywhere.

To the contrary, it seems apparent that he was an evil cleric of an evil god who prepared heal spells (which is totally allowed) and converted some of them into inflicts.

Bastian Weaver

2012-03-07, 07:54 PM

He prepared heal spells because he was on healing duty, duh. That's what he told Hailey when she asked if he had anything combat-oriented prepared.

Anne Calie

2012-03-07, 08:04 PM

He has the wrong alignment, and he drinks beer. Which of these is most important to Thor?

Haha, that's an excelent point.

Seriously, I don't think Durkon has the "wrong alignment", we've seen Thor atand up to defend some innocent pople from a monster:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html

The fact that he likes to smash thing, get drunk and have casual sex don't necessary makes him chaotic, being lawful isn't equal being "boring".
Well, honestly, I've never really cared about his alignment, never considered it really important, I just thought that he was a suitable god for the dwarves (mostly because of the drinking thing).

Dr.Epic

2012-03-07, 08:27 PM

I did some reading and found out that a cleric can't be too far from his/her god on the alignment scale. So how can a Lawful cleric serve a Chaotic god?

Because Rich changes things for his comic from the official D&D rules to serve the plot.

rbetieh

2012-03-07, 08:46 PM

If Thor be chaotic, cant Thor just grant clericy powers to whomever he pleases by just "bending the rules". It's not like anyone in his pantheon calls him on it.

Euodiachloris

2012-03-07, 09:00 PM

I vote "beer" as well. I think drunkeness fixes most of the alignment issues. :smallsmile:

I bet this Thor likes to think He's Lawful (and would be that normally), but, He spends most of His time a little the worse for wear with either a nice buzz on, or with a horrible hangover. So, acts a little less than Lawful for a lot of the time.

Or, Durkon was accepted as His cleric when He was roaring drunk, and He rather likes him, even though He's sobered up now. Who knows?

An alignment problem certainly would explain why He sometimes can't understand His cleric's accent, when He really should be able to. :smallbiggrin: That, or the beer, of course. :smallwink:

<insert random drinking song here>

SaintRidley

2012-03-07, 09:10 PM

I operate under the assumption that Thor is Lawful Good... when sober.

Narren

2012-03-08, 12:49 AM

I operate under the assumption that Thor is Lawful Good... when sober.

So he's Lawful Good.....never?

ShikomeKidoMi

2012-03-08, 03:10 AM

I think it makes some sense in general, given how prolific alignment domains are. Would a deity with special control over Good (as represented by being able to grant access to the Good domain) be willing/able to channel his/her/its divine power through an evil individual, whose own alignment directly conflicts with said power?

Though that doesn't really explain why a Neutral Good deity wouldn't accept Lawful Neutral, True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral clerics...or why only True Neutral deities accept True Neutral clerics, for that matter.

Alignment domains are a good reason for deities to limit their clerics, but it also makes some sense from a simple compatibility standpoint. Is a god really going to go around granting special powers to someone who has an aspect of their personality in complete opposition to their view? Maybe in a few really rare special cases, but it'd some sort of special NPC exemption rather than something the players could take advantage of.

In the case of Lawful Neutral or Chaotic Neutral, it's probably a case of too many minor disagreements being almost as bad as one major one. You're right that the tacked on bit about true neutrals doesn't make sense, though.

As for the original topic, given the slightly different from standard cosmology (like this being the god's second world) from most D&D settings, I am in the camp of those who believe OOTS Thor to probably be Neutral Good.

Secris

2012-03-08, 05:29 AM

I like to think certain deities allow for some leeway for races tied to them. For example, 3/5 of Tiamat's babies are usually Chaotic, yet she is Lawful. Likewise, the Dark One is Lawful but one of the major goblinoids races tends to be Chaotic. Are they going to tell a huge chunk of their children "no" when they want to directly serve them and do their bidding? So perhaps Thor is tied to dwarves in a similar manner.

This explanation makes the most sense to me, other than "The Giant said so," which I'm not a fan of*. This not only explains Durkon and Thor, but also brings up and explains other idiosyncrasies in the one-step alignment conundrum.

Of course, Thor could just be Neutral Good, allowing him to be chaotic from time to time without breaking the rule. But I like Geraff's explanation much more, since it also addresses Tiamat and the Dark One.

*If he says so, I'll accept it, but I like a story-based reason when possible.

Killer Angel

2012-03-08, 07:03 AM

Seriously, I don't think Durkon has the "wrong alignment", we've seen Thor atand up to defend some innocent pople from a monster:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html

Just a nitpick. That was not "a monster". That was SURTUR (http://www.leaderslair.com/marvelvillains/surtur.html), Destroyer of the Universe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weOAFTBPgQo). :smalltongue:

rgrekejin

2012-03-08, 03:54 PM

I operate under the assumption that Thor is Lawful Good... when sober.

This is the best explanation for this particular question that I've ever heard.

flarecde

2012-03-08, 04:34 PM

A CG deity that accepts LG followers isn't entirely unheard of either - in FR Sune is CG and has an order of paladins. It's not too far fetched to stretch the concept a little further on a deity to deity basis. The one step rule does make sense, but exceptions could certainly make sense too.

Secris

2012-03-08, 06:58 PM

This is the best explanation for this particular question that I've ever heard.

Except that implies that Thor is ever sober. I question that assumption.

Chess Tyrant

2012-03-08, 07:05 PM

I operate under the assumption that Thor is Lawful Good... when sober.

Huh. I just figured Durkon had never realized Thor was Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html). :smalltongue:

Yuki Akuma

2012-03-08, 07:10 PM

The Thor in the OotSverse is Neutral Good.

Problem solved.

SaintRidley

2012-03-08, 07:14 PM

Except that implies that Thor is ever sober. I question that assumption.

I make no such implication.

You may infer such absurdities if you wish, however.

asphias

2012-03-08, 07:39 PM

while a lawfull god might want to have followers of exactly the same alignment, i can understand a chaotic god caring way less about it, on behalf of being chaotic.

Cranica

2012-03-08, 09:25 PM

To borrow TVTrope's term, Thor might be Lawful but with blue-and-orange morality.

Jay R

2012-03-08, 11:25 PM

But if a Chaotic Good god accepts a Lawful Good cleric, he's not obeying the rules. He's showing he has little use for laws and regulations. He's just not being properly lawf...

Ummm...

Oh.

Killer Angel

2012-03-09, 05:52 AM

The Thor in the OotSverse is Neutral Good.

Problem solved.

We already know that OOTS Thor is not based off of D&D Thor.
Don't spoil our fun with details like the boring truth. :smalltongue:

LadyEowyn

2012-03-09, 10:55 AM

An interesting factor to me is that "lawful" doesn't necessarily mean "sensible" or "responsible".

Loki's Chaotic Evil (presumably), and in two strips we see him being the more sensible of the two: [re: the Snarl] "Dude, don't taunt the god-killing abomination" and [re: Thor getting a fertility goddess pregnant] "She had flowers in her hair and bluebirds surrounding her! What did you think she was, the bringer of pestilence?"

The Cat Goddess

2012-03-09, 01:28 PM

The spontaneous casting only applies to the Cure X Wound series for HP damage. 'Healing' can also cover poisons, diseases, curses, ability damage, and other more exotic forms of injury, and the spells for those would still have to be memorized.

Actually, you're not quite accurate there.

Spontaneous casting is for any spell with "Cure" in the name... including "Cure Disease", "Cure Blindness", etc.

MesiDoomstalker

2012-03-09, 01:39 PM

Actually, you're not quite accurate there.

Spontaneous casting is for any spell with "Cure" in the name... including "Cure Disease", "Cure Blindness", etc.

Except there are no spells with "Cure" in their names except onese that heal HP, and only HP. Anything that removes a condition is "Remove X" not "Cure X."

Source. (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm)

Though, if you really want to be cheesy, a cleric who spontaneously casts Cure spells could spontaneously cast Obscure Object, not that it would be terribly useful.

Dr.Epic

2012-03-09, 03:41 PM

If Thor be chaotic, cant Thor just grant clericy powers to whomever he pleases by just "bending the rules". It's not like anyone in his pantheon calls him on it.

Yeah! Good point. But the people should dedicate themselves to Thor completely. That's the best way to please him. There should be a class based around serving and dedicating your life to the ideas of a deity in D&D.

rbetieh

2012-03-09, 03:42 PM

Yeah! Good point. But the people should dedicate themselves to Thor completely. That's the best way to please him. There should be a class based around serving and dedicating your life to the ideas of a deity in D&D.

I think I've heard of that one....Favored Soul right? :smallwink:

Sethala

2012-03-09, 04:18 PM

t209

2012-03-09, 04:47 PM

fertility goddess
I think it's Freyja (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyja), Goddess of Fertility and Wife of Thor (Shotgun wedding!)

Jay R

2012-03-09, 08:18 PM

Loki's Chaotic Evil (presumably), ...

Not if he's based on the myths. One of Loki's epithets was "the Doer of Good and the Doer of Evil".

Querzis

2012-03-09, 08:29 PM

Seriously, I don't think Durkon has the "wrong alignment", we've seen Thor atand up to defend some innocent pople from a monster:

Are you suggesting that chaotic good people woudnt do that? And I'm sorry but I just do not see how getting drunk and throwing lightning randomly count as anything else then chaotic. Not that I think it matter mind you, he could be neutral good but the one-step rule is indeed dumb. Not for good and evil, I can perfectly understand why an evil cleric cant serve a good god but for the chaos/law axis? Ok, nevermind the fact that, as it was already pointed out, plenty of lawful gods created/rule over chaotic children like with the Dark Ones or Tiamat and vice-versa but lets look at this from the perspective of chaotic and lawful gods and cleric.

Lets say that you're a very lawful dwarf raised in a society where everyone worship this god. Obviously, since you're lawful, you follow the traditions of your society and worship this god as well, even if hes chaotic. Now lets say you're a chaotic god. Obviously you like to be worshipped, who cares if the ones doing it are lawful? Thor is not just the god of lightning, hes also the god of beers, drunken fighting, hammers and fighting giants. Of course dwarves worship him, why the hell would his chaotic alignement matter?

Kish

2012-03-09, 09:14 PM

Psyren

2012-03-09, 09:20 PM

The Thor in the OotSverse is Neutral Good.

Problem solved.

That makes far too much sense in far too few words. Shame on you!

Euodiachloris

2012-03-09, 09:22 PM

I think it's Freyja (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyja), Goddess of Fertility and Wife of Thor (Shotgun wedding!)

Uh: if she is Freyja, I think Her brother-husband, Frey, might want words with Thor. Not to mention Thor's wife, Sif (although, from all accounts, She was an extreme doormat).

Norse mythology: and you though only Greece and Egypt were into incest? Silly bunny! :smallwink:

I'd actually put money on that Goddess being Frigg/a rather than Freyja, myself. Yes, different deities. And, again, yes, if you think what I think you're thinking. :smallbiggrin:

t209

2012-03-09, 10:53 PM

Uh: if she is Freyja, I think Her brother-husband, Frey, might want words with Thor. Not to mention Thor's wife, Sif (although, from all accounts, She was an extreme doormat).

Norse mythology: and you though only Greece and Egypt were into incest? Silly bunny! :smallwink:

I'd actually put money on that Goddess being Frigg/a rather than Freyja, myself. Yes, different deities. And, again, yes, if you think what I think you're thinking. :smallbiggrin:

Okay! Frigga then!

ShikomeKidoMi

2012-03-10, 05:16 AM

I suspect the latter had much more to do with, "A chance to taunt my archenemy!" than with "I shall be sensible!"

A bit off topic, but since this isn't Marvel Comics, it's kind of weird that Thor and Loki are archenemies and not adventuring partners who don't really get along, like mythology.

Anne Calie

2012-03-10, 06:26 AM

Are you suggesting that chaotic good people woudnt do that? And I'm sorry but I just do not see how getting drunk and throwing lightning randomly count as anything else then chaotic. Not that I think it matter mind you, he could be neutral good but the one-step rule is indeed dumb. Not for good and evil, I can perfectly understand why an evil cleric cant serve a good god but for the chaos/law axis? Ok, nevermind the fact that, as it was already pointed out, plenty of lawful gods created/rule over chaotic children like with the Dark Ones or Tiamat and vice-versa but lets look at this from the perspective of chaotic and lawful gods and cleric.

Lets say that you're a very lawful dwarf raised in a society where everyone worship this god. Obviously, since you're lawful, you follow the traditions of your society and worship this god as well, even if hes chaotic. Now lets say you're a chaotic god. Obviously you like to be worshipped, who cares if the ones doing it are lawful? Thor is not just the god of lightning, hes also the god of beers, drunken fighting, hammers and fighting giants. Of course dwarves worship him, why the hell would his chaotic alignement matter?

I didn't want to imply that chaotic deities ingnore their worshipers, I apologize for my example that lloked like that. I wanted to demonstrate he is not as irresponsable as it may appear (getting dunk, firing thunder at random, impregnating Freya).

Jay R

2012-03-10, 10:45 AM

I'd actually put money on that Goddess being Frigg/a rather than Freyja, myself. Yes, different deities. And, again, yes, if you think what I think you're thinking. :smallbiggrin:

Thor's step-mom? I'll pass on that notion, I think.

BaronOfHell

2012-03-10, 11:37 AM

Thor's step-mom? I'll pass on that notion, I think.

Norse mythology: and you though only Greece and Egypt were into incest? Silly bunny! :smallwink:

...:smallbiggrin:

Narren

2012-03-10, 12:27 PM

I don't terribly mind the one-step rule. There is a big difference in "worships a god" and "is a cleric of a god." Anyone can worship whatever they want, but a cleric is supposed to represent the ideals and teachings of that god on the material (or whichever) plane. If his alignment is too distant, then he simply can't represent what that god is trying to teach. I also don't mind exceptions to this rule on a case by case basis, as long as there is some reason why (even if it's flimsy).

And for the record, I couldn't care less that Lawful Durkon is a cleric of seemingly Chaotic Thor.

Kish

2012-03-10, 12:28 PM

And for the record, I could care less that Lawful Durkon is a cleric of seemingly Chaotic Thor.
You realize that that expression means you care.

Jaros

2012-03-10, 12:36 PM

I don't terribly mind the one-step rule. There is a big difference in "worships a god" and "is a cleric of a god." Anyone can worship whatever they want, but a cleric is supposed to represent the ideals and teachings of that god on the material (or whichever) plane. If his alignment is too distant, then he simply can't represent what that god is trying to teach. I also don't mind exceptions to this rule on a case by case basis, as long as there is some reason why (even if it's flimsy).

I can't really think of anything to add here, but these are pretty much my views on the topic and I wanted to vocalise my agreement with them and a simple 'this' does not constitute the ten characters needed for a forum post, so I decided to be somewhat needlessly convoluted in stating my agreement with Narren.

Narren

2012-03-10, 01:28 PM

You realize that that expression means you care.

Whoops. Fixed.

Dwy

2012-03-10, 09:22 PM

A bit off topic, but since this isn't Marvel Comics, it's kind of weird that Thor and Loki are archenemies and not adventuring partners who don't really get along, like mythology.

This a thousand times!
Heck, when Norse Thor lost his hammer and had to dress up like Freya(?) to marry a giant and get it back (long story, but it happened, and made more sense than my comment would have it), which other norse god accompanied him? -Loki, dressing up as a bridesmaid, even though it was pretty demeaning to both of them.

ti'esar

2012-03-10, 09:55 PM

Eisenfavl

2012-03-10, 10:40 PM

This a thousand times!
Heck, when Norse Thor lost his hammer and had to dress up like Freya(?) to marry a giant and get it back (long story, but it happened, and made more sense than my comment would have it), which other norse god accompanied him? -Loki, dressing up as a bridesmaid, even though it was pretty demeaning to both of them.

Loki was semi-allied with the gods for most of the mythology. Than he killed the guy who was immune to everything but mistletoe, and then prevented his resurrection.
He ends up being the BBEG who leads the army of the dead supported by his ungodly doom-children against the gods in Ragnorock. He most assuredly isn't happy happy good good.

Acanous

2012-03-10, 10:51 PM

Loki is C/E in this, I'm pretty sure. That Loki cleric was either N/E (Unlikely- did not want to kill) or C/N (More likely- went behind his order's back, helped others for self-gain, did not want to kill.)
Thor is likely N/G in this, as he does as much lawful stuff as chaotic, and he's definately good.

As for TN clerics, I thought a N/G deity could have TN clerics. Same with N/E, L/N, or C/N.
In fact I'm reasonably sure there's a L/N deity that states has TN followers, but no L/E.

Porthos

2012-03-10, 11:06 PM

A bit off topic, but since this isn't Marvel Comics, it's kind of weird that Thor and Loki are archenemies and not adventuring partners who don't really get along, like mythology.

Funny you should mention that.... :smallwink:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070220022000/http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7283

Yes, exactly. More to the point, everyone knows who Thor is, even if they haven't read D&D books for years. So I picked Thor because he had a big hammer and wore a hat with horns. That is all the internal logic I required when choosing, because I don't care about the things you apparently care about, like whether the alignment printed in the D&D book for Thor was 100% appropriate, or what the long-dead people who invented Thor portrayed him as. Those things are utterly irrelevent. I care more about the Marvel Comics version of Thor than I do about what is printed in Deities&Demigods.

So the fact that you picked up on the Marvel connection means that Rich is succeeding on some level. :smalltongue:

ti'esar

2012-03-11, 01:32 AM

Come to think of it, we explicitly know OOTS Loki is CE: Hilgya states that he's chaotic early on, and SoD confirms him as evil.

LordVader

2012-03-11, 02:31 AM

He has the wrong alignment, and he drinks beer. Which of these is most important to Thor?

This, entirely.

Onyavar

2012-03-11, 05:34 AM

Okay, we haven't seen any "norse" god in the ootsverse before who IS lawful, did we?
Also, I can hardly think of any greek, roman or norse god in mythology who is pure LG... there is always a story that depicts them as petty, vengeful, lying and so on.

So in my opinion, Thor is as close to being Lawful Good as you can get. The "when sober" clause is a pretty good one.
I'm surprised that no one mentioned the Sapphire Guard so far (or did I skip some posts?). They are LG types who serve a pantheon of 12 Gods, spread over the complete alignment table. And they don't yell "In the name of Tiger", but "In the name of the Twelve Gods"...

Ravian

2012-03-11, 04:27 PM

Actually there's nothing besides this comic #79 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html) there's nothing to say that Thor and Loki don't get on fairly good terms like in the myths. And even then, I really don't see too much of a nemisis in that exchange, Thor's really cheesed about something Loki did (Which could have been as simple as a morally questionable prank (something Loki was well known for)) and decides to teach him a lesson, Thunder God style. Other than that we've seen Loki warning Thor not to taunt the Snarl (something any good brother would do) and then tell him off on the fertility goddess thing. (which was neither evil nor chaotic for that matter)

So basically I see a pair of siblings with a definate rivalry going on and clearly differing alignments, not sworn enemies. Their nausea over Durkon and Hilgya was that it was sort of like they were doing it, and that disgusted them because they were brothers, not enemies.