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Obnoxious Hydra
2012-03-07, 04:57 PM
WARNING: Start of Darkness spoilers are in this thread!

Since reading SoD I've had several questions regarding the Dark One and the Humanoid monster species.


1. What's the Dark Ones opinion of the other humanoids?

I've always wondered what the Dark One thinks of the humanoid species other than goblinoids (e.g. kobolds, lizardfolk). Naturally, as a goblin, he cares for his own kind most, but does he still care about or atleast feel sorry for the other humanoid species?


2. The Crimson Mantle and other gods clerics?

The humanoid species were created as easy XP for clerics by the gods. When the Dark One ascends to godhood, he discovers this and is naturally extremely angry, and fights for his species equality by giving one of his clerics a cloak that makes them po-
Wait what?
How come the Dark One, a newbie god, is able to just create a magic item to kickstart his clerics? Why didn't the elder gods just create simmiliar magical artifacts instead of forcing their clerics to fight?


3. The Dark One and Xykon

What's the Dark One's stance on the whole Xykon deal? Several times Xykon has acted in a way that could threaten the Dark One's plan, but the Dark One hasn't really interfered: he hasn't given Redcloak advice on keeping him inline, hasn't pointed Redcloak towards an alternate arcane caster...
Redcloak does have the whole subtle manipulating thing going on, but things might have gone a lot faster if the Dark One had got involved.


4. Kobolds, Lizardfolk and the Western Continent

Kobolds and Lizardfolk were created as easy XP, and were given major disadvantages like the Goblinoids. However, the lizardfolk are shown to have massive advantages on the Western Continent: they make a large part of the population, and there's the nation of Reptillia. Kobolds (or atleast a kobold) appear in high ranks, and one kobold has been gifted with astonishing magical powers, the ability to make a fortune and to set up a good village.
What could this mean? Are the lizardfolk simply superior to the goblinoids? Are they able to more easily set up a name for themselves? However, a group of them are shown to be poor in SoD, as they live in the same swamp as the goblins.
And, Tiamat is mentioned as preferring kobolds. Does this mean that Tiamat went behind the other gods backs, and started helping one of the easiest XP bags?


5. Bugbears?

Bugbears have only ever appeared once in the entire comic, in a crayon drawing segment in SoD. Will they ever appear in the main comic? Does the Dark One care about them aswell?

Raimun
2012-03-07, 05:42 PM
WARNING: Start of Darkness spoilers are in this thread![/b][/u]

Since reading SoD I've had several questions regarding the Dark One and the Humanoid monster species.


1. What's the Dark Ones opinion of the other humanoids?

I've always wondered what the Dark One thinks of the humanoid species other than goblinoids (e.g. kobolds, lizardfolk). Naturally, as a goblin, he cares for his own kind most, but does he still care about or atleast feel sorry for the other humanoid species?

It's not really said if Dark One actually cares about other "monstrous" humanoids. I imagine Red Cloak would argue that he does, whatever the truth is. Still, if DO does something, he does it for the goblins.


2. The Crimson Mantle and other gods clerics?

The humanoid species were created as easy XP for clerics by the gods. When the Dark One ascends to godhood, he discovers this and is naturally extremely angry, and fights for his species equality by giving one of his clerics a cloak that makes them po-
Wait what?
How come the Dark One, a newbie god, is able to just create a magic item to kickstart his clerics? Why didn't the elder gods just create simmiliar magical artifacts instead of forcing their clerics to fight?

Perhaps they did forge artifacts? Most major D&D deities have artifacts named after them. However, most stories feature a very limited amount of Grand Artifacts(tm).

Edit: Surely, there can't be artifacts for every cleric?

Also, IIRC, the Crimson Mantle only bestows knowledge of The Plan and the longevity to reach it (with immunity to disease). They don't seem that useful if you are a level one cleric fighting a hydra or a chimera. :smalltongue:

[
b]3. The Dark One and Xykon[/b]

What's the Dark One's stance on the whole Xykon deal? Several times Xykon has acted in a way that could threaten the Dark One's plan, but the Dark One hasn't really interfered: he hasn't given Redcloak advice on keeping him inline, hasn't pointed Redcloak towards an alternate arcane caster...
Redcloak does have the whole subtle manipulating thing going on, but things might have gone a lot faster if the Dark One had got involved.

"Don't screw this up." I think this about covers it. :smallamused:


4. Kobolds, Lizardfolk and the Western Continent

Kobolds and Lizardfolk were created as easy XP, and were given major disadvantages like the Goblinoids. However, the lizardfolk are shown to have massive advantages on the Western Continent: they make a large part of the population, and there's the nation of Reptillia. Kobolds (or atleast a kobold) appear in high ranks, and one kobold has been gifted with astonishing magical powers, the ability to make a fortune and to set up a good village.
What could this mean? Are the lizardfolk simply superior to the goblinoids? Are they able to more easily set up a name for themselves? However, a group of them are shown to be poor in SoD, as they live in the same swamp as the goblins.
And, Tiamat is mentioned as preferring kobolds. Does this mean that Tiamat went behind the other gods backs, and started helping one of the easiest XP bags?

Lizardfolk don't seem to be as organized as the hobgoblins, also their names are too long to remember.

Tiamat is one of the elder gods who created the cannon fodder-races. Perhaps she created kobolds herself? ... For an evil purpose?


5. Bugbears?

Bugbears have only ever appeared once in the entire comic, in a crayon drawing segment in SoD. Will they ever appear in the main comic? Does the Dark One care about them aswell?

Of course. They are goblinoids and are even represented in Gobbotopia's flag

Gift Jeraff
2012-03-07, 05:53 PM
The "lizardfolk" in SoD are called troglodytes in Origins (when Sir Francois recounts Elan's blunders) and don't look like the taller, slender lizardfolk seen on the Western Continent, so I think they've been re-retconned into trogs. (For reference, they're the guys in the last panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html).)

EDIT: Somewhat relevant to reptilian quality of life on the Western Continent: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11671842&postcount=99

ti'esar
2012-03-08, 12:12 AM
As far as lizardfolk and kobolds go - the general equality we see between races on the Western Continent is one of the major reasons I suspect there's something fishy with the whole "monster races created for XP" story.


The "lizardfolk" in SoD are called troglodytes in Origins (when Sir Francois recounts Elan's blunders) and don't look like the taller, slender lizardfolk seen on the Western Continent, so I think they've been re-retconned into trogs. (For reference, they're the guys in the last panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html).)

EDIT: Somewhat relevant to reptilian quality of life on the Western Continent: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11671842&postcount=99

Huh - I've seen that quote before, but I never noticed that it implies the Oracle is originally from the Western Continent. Interesting.

suzaliscious
2012-03-08, 02:18 PM
aaaaand where is it said that Kobolds and Lizardfolk are fodder races? Tiamat created them as the other Gods created humans, dwarves, etc. They're equal from the start.

Morty
2012-03-08, 02:29 PM
Personally, I think bugbears weren't included for the same reason as gnomes - it's hard to make them distinct from hobgoblins in stick art. I could be wrong, of course.

Raimun
2012-03-08, 02:30 PM
aaaaand where is it said that Kobolds and Lizardfolk are fodder races? Tiamat created them as the other Gods created humans, dwarves, etc. They're equal from the start.

Why, in Start of Darkness.

Fodder include: "... goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, orcs, kobolds, lizardfolk, and dozens of others."

Euodiachloris
2012-03-08, 04:18 PM
aaaaand where is it said that Kobolds and Lizardfolk are fodder races? Tiamat created them as the other Gods created humans, dwarves, etc. They're equal from the start.

Yup: SoD. However, nothing says Redcloak is actually right or telling the whole truth. And what we have is only his take on the whole thing.

zimmerwald1915
2012-03-08, 04:51 PM
Personally, I think bugbears weren't included for the same reason as gnomes - it's hard to make them distinct from hobgoblins in stick art. I could be wrong, of course.
Since the orange and green stars on Gobbotopia's flag map precisely, in RGB terms, to the skin tones of goblins and hobgoblins, it's safe to assume bugbears would get a dark brown skin tone, which already marks them off as different from goblins and hobgoblins. Giving them Roy-type or Thog-type builds would also go a long way towards making them visually distinct from other goblinoids, who are drawn with Elan-type builds. It would even fit their MM art.

An illustration of what I mean:
http://i42.tinypic.com/11vi5og.png

They probably haven't been shown because there's no reason for them to be shown.

ti'esar
2012-03-08, 04:59 PM
Personally, I think bugbears weren't included for the same reason as gnomes - it's hard to make them distinct from hobgoblins in stick art. I could be wrong, of course.

We've seen a decent number of gnomes.

Obnoxious Hydra
2012-03-08, 05:10 PM
Personally, I think bugbears weren't included for the same reason as gnomes - it's hard to make them distinct from hobgoblins in stick art. I could be wrong, of course.

The single Bugbear drawing in SoD is yellow skinned, and has tufts of fur on the side of his head.

And, in OOTS, Gnomes are actually shorter than Dwarves, usually drawn around Halfling/Belkar height and almost always given pointy hats.



Yup: SoD. However, nothing says Redcloak is actually right or telling the whole truth. And what we have is only his take on the whole thing.

Yes, his take on the whole thing IS all we've got. Thus, I'm using that as a basis for information. Until something proves him directly wrong, I don't think anyone is in any position to just say "no a person said it not a historical record it must be wrong".

King of Nowhere
2012-03-08, 05:10 PM
aaaaand where is it said that Kobolds and Lizardfolk are fodder races? Tiamat created them as the other Gods created humans, dwarves, etc. They're equal from the start.

Good idea, maybe they were created with the pc races, and not intended as xp fodder.

or maybe, given the extreme warlikeness (ok, 90% chance I just made up the word, but I think you understand what I mean) of the western continent, humans were never stronger than humanoids. maybe the humans got the better land, but then the lizardfolk managed to conquer it. only to have it conquered again by someone else, of course.
And with all the evil government there, the evil humanoids would be no worse than anyone else.

Or, third hypotesis, the kobolds and lizardfolks are protected in the western continent because it's tiamat's land, while they still are xp fodder elsewhere. I remember haley mentioning in otoopc that she had a campaign killing kobolds among other jobs before joining oots.

zimmerwald1915
2012-03-08, 05:15 PM
or maybe, given the extreme warlikeness (ok, 90% chance I just made up the word, but I think you understand what I mean) of the western continent[...]
For future posts of this kind, "given the war-torn state of the Western Continent" would work without you needing to make up words. You could also use "belligerance", but that applies more to an individual's state of mind or to a state's policy than to any kind of broad geopological scene.

Deliverance
2012-03-08, 06:06 PM
It should be mentioned that all our information about the Dark One comes from questionable sources; Redcloak acquired the information that is being presented as the true story of the Dark One after having being magically informed by the Crimson Mantle and having showing signs of being magically dominated.

It is possible that the Crimson Mantle passed him true and complete information, that this information was enough to launch him on his career, that no magical domination took place when transforming the goblin-that-was into the monomaniac pursuing "the plan", and that the Dark One's goals are what Redcloak believes them to be..... but I just don't see why we should assume this to be the case.

Valyrian
2012-03-08, 07:07 PM
For future posts of this kind, "given the war-torn state of the Western Continent" would work without you needing to make up words. You could also use "belligerance", but that applies more to an individual's state of mind or to a state's policy than to any kind of broad geopological scene.
I like "warlikeness". It's a perfectly cromulent word ;)

Herald Alberich
2012-03-08, 11:25 PM
If you look carefully, Gobbotopia's history textbooks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) mention a nice long list of "growing minorities" of "disenfranchised humanoids". The Dark One himself doesn't say much, but his people support including other intelligent monster races in this nation-building thing they're trying out.

ThePhantasm
2012-03-09, 09:23 AM
Personally, I think bugbears weren't included for the same reason as gnomes - it's hard to make them distinct from hobgoblins in stick art. I could be wrong, of course.

Poor Solt Lorkyurg (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html) would disagree with you.

Morquard
2012-03-09, 10:18 AM
It's quite possibe that Tiamat originally only created the dragons as "her" species, but later the lizardfolk and kobolds started to accept her as their goddess as well, and since they're reptiles too, Tiamat accepted them as her followers, elevating their status from xp-fodder to pc-race at least in her lands.
It's also possible that on the western continent warlords have used the warlike lizardfolk and kobolds as their armies to defeat their enemies, and gave them land in return. Or they then got dethroned by a coup.

Of course it could also be that the Dark One told Redcloak exactly what he needed to hear to fall inline with the Plan. He had just witnessed how Paladins slaughtered his village when he put on the mantle, so a story about how this all results from divine injustice and how the DO tries to fix it would be something that makes RC go along with it.
It's quite possible everything the DO told RC through the Mantle is complete crap, its also possible that it's 100% truth. Personally I think it's somewhere in the middle.

King of Nowhere
2012-03-09, 02:43 PM
I think what we see in crayons is completely true; however, it could be half-truth, exact words, or contain omissions.
The reason I think so is that to date, nothing contained in crayons has ever been contradicted, but the crayons had been very carefully made in some points.
For example, sojo says during his exposition that after the order of the scribble broke, no one ever saw each other "as far as they knew". true, because soon didn't knew dorukan and lirian kept seeing each others. and it would have been very easy to skip that part if the giant wasn't concerned with showing only truth in the crayons.
In the same way, in sod redcloak never says that the ritual will control the snarl in the crayons: Xykon made the suggestion himself, and the crayons stopped that very panel.

EeTee
2012-03-09, 04:30 PM
If kobolds and lizardfolk were created to be just walking chunks of XP it doesn't mean that they have to be that at this point of history, or everywhere on the planet. Maybe humans and lizardfolk just don't have any reason to fight at Western Continent. Maybe they think it's more useful to co-operate at those harsh conditions. Nothing says that clerics must kill all humanoid monsters to gain XP. Goblins just have bad luck.