Help with a gish type character

[Dude_Here]

Hi,
I'm joining a new campaign and just rolled the stats for my character:

16 ,14 ,14 ,13 ,12, 11
Human

I have access to all 3.5 and pathfinder books for this build. Our party already has a duskblade so I would prefer to steer clear of that class.

I want him to be more caster than melee so I was leaning towards the warmage but I'm open to suggestions. I know the abjurant champion, spellsword are solid prcs for a build of this type. I would also like to know how viable the pathfinder Magus class is.

Thanks

[Hiro Protagonest]

Just play a magus. Maybe take Dervish Dance.

Now, I'm going to just take the build through level 20 since you didn't specify.

Human Magus-

16 int, 16 dex, 14 con, 13 str, 12 wis or cha, 10 wis or cha

Feats:
1 - Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance

Good spells by spell level:
0 - Flare, Mage Hand, Prestidigation, Ghost Sound, Spark
1 - Enlarge Person, Grease, Mount, Obscuring Mist, Vanish, Silent Image, Color Spray
2 - Alter Self, Blur, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Spider Climb, Web

That's all I have so far. It took me long enough to put this together.

[teslas]

I am a fanboi of the Swiftblade class, admittedly, but with the stats that you rolled, it's a great fit. I have never met a DM that had a problem with the class, even though it's a (non-campaign-specific) web enhancement.

Here's the source for the material:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327

You can google the swiftblade handbook as well as I can.

Ability Scores:
STR: 14
DEX: 14
CON: 13
INT: 16
WIS: 12
CHA: 11

Fighter(STR) or Swashbuckler(DEX) 1/Wizard 5 is my personal favorite way to enter for a race that doesn't get martial weapon proficiencies (like elf). Spending a feat on martial weapon proficiency is absolutely on the table if you don't want to lose out on that level of spell-casting, which it sounds like you don't.

There is a wizard variant in unearthed arcana that gives you fighter feats instead of wizard bonus feats and scribe scroll. I suggest taking that, and bam, free gish feats for Wizard 1st and Wizard 5th. Three feats at level one is always fun~ (Human, first HD, and Wizard (now Fighter) bonus feat).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) 1/ Fighter 1/ Martial Wizard 2/ Human Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 4.

Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 11

H. Practiced Spellcaster
1. Extend Spell
F1. Combat Reflexes
W1. Power Attack
3. Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm)
HP2. Combat Casting
6. Leap Attack
HP3. +2 Int
OH. Iron Will
I1. Persistent Spell
9. Arcane Strike
I4. Quicken Spell
12. Minor Shapeshift
15. Summon Elemental
EK1. Improved Toughness
18. Arcane Disciple: Destiny*
*Put your 16th level point into Wis and get a +6 Wis item by the time you get this.

You should invest every skill point you get from 4th level up into your item familiar, and put as large a bonus toward Spellcraft as possible. You can use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect to Persist all of your own buffs, and you can take ten on the Spellcraft checks to do so. Be good aligned and use (Greater) Luminous Armor every day.

[Dude_Here]

Thanks for the replies.

Is there an alternate version of this build that doesn't involve Item Familiar?



Human Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Martial Wizard 2/ Human Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 4.


If so I would be very interested.
Thanks

[Urpriest]

Thanks for the replies.

Is there an alternate version of this build that doesn't involve Item Familiar?




If so I would be very interested.
Thanks

Item Familiar is just for boosting your Spellcraft into the stratosphere. If you have another way to do it (custom magic items of +Spellcraft are pretty cheap if you follow the guidelines in the DMG, though be aware that because they're guidelines your DM can modify them if they seem unfair) then you're good.

[JadePhoenix]

+1 to the Magus suggestion

[Andreaz]

+1 to the Magus suggestion

Same, but with less dex and more str. Going high str is simpler and spares you feats for the same overall effectiveness.

[eggs]

Changeling Wizard 5/War Weaver 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Recaster 5
Mix in Djinni Bloodline to make the most of class-based benefits.
(Leaves you lagging by 1 level for about half your progression, which is about on par with common gish builds that lose a third caster level early)

CL 30 before feats, items, &c.
Weave 7 spells, level 8 or lower, to thoroughly overbuff yourself and allies as a move action.
+8 to shield and armor abjurations.
Auto-quicken level 4 and lower Abjurations
Lots of free daily metamagic abilities
2 spells known from non-Wizard sources

Conjurer specialization [Unfocused], Abrupt Magic, and Fighter Bonus feat specifications would let this work as a skirmisher at lowish levels, jabbing into combat with a reach weapon and flitting away from would-be attackers with Abrupt Jaunt. But the low-level game will primarily see this build as a controller/support buffer character.

It matures as a sturdy gish around level 7 (party level 7.5 to 8), when Quiescent Weaving +bloodline levels kick it off with a powerful weave (3 spells, level 4 and lower).

[Piggy Knowles]

For defensive gish-style builds, I'm a big fan of...

Dwarf, Cleric 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 5

...as a start. Take Arcane Disciple (War), and for your Cleric domains, you can't go wrong with Planning, Luck, Travel, Strength, Animal, Law or Plant (trade the latter 5 for devotion feats).

To take a look at it, just at level 10, with fairly mild optimization, you can be looking at...

AC in the mid-thirties, with the investment of only three spells:
+10 armor bonus (plate armor + Magic Vestment)
+2 shield bonus (shield... more if you can get an additional casting of Magic Vestment via items)
+12 natural armor (extended Alter Self into Troglodyte/Crucian form, extended Dragonskin)
=AC 34

(If you took Plant Devotion or Law Devotion, this can go up pretty easily, too)

Divine Power 3/day if you want to mix it up in melee (once via Arcane Disciple, twice via the Runesmith's SLA ability at level 5).

From level 10 on, you can go in pretty much any direction you want, although Abjurant Champion definitely would be a nice choice, once you have the requisite BAB.

[Rubik]

A synaptic mask (from Hyperconscious) and a +10 skill shard (from the Expanded Psionics Handbook) could get you a constant +10 to Spellcraft for a total of 4,000 gp.

[jmelesky]

Feats:
1 - Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance


Dervish Dance requires 2 ranks in Perform (Dance), so it's not available at 1st level.

If you do go the Dervish Dance route, Str becomes a dump stat (and Enlarge Person becomes a debuff -- Reduce yourself instead), so you should put that 10 in Str, leaving you a few higher scores for your other stats.

Also, if you go Dervish Dance, elf (PF version) makes a lot of sense, giving you +2 to Int and Dex, and -2 to Con, which would bring both of your primary stats up. It costs you a feat, but since you can't get Dervish Dance till 3rd level anyway, it's worth at least considering.

[Curious]

Same, but with less dex and more str. Going high str is simpler and spares you feats for the same overall effectiveness.

I just wanted to emphasis that this is not true at all. Dexterity gives bonuses to AC (rather important at low levels, which are also incidentally the same levels a magus can't wear more than light armor), Reflex saves (a weak save), initiative (going first wins combats), and several useful skills. Being able to apply dex to hit and damage reduces your MAD quite deftly, meaning you now only need Dex, Con, and Int, rather than Str, Dex, Con, and Int. You lose two feats, yes, but if you look at the benefits gained by using dex as your primary stat, you'll notice that they are generally worth much more than just two feats.

Example: A build with dex 20, as opposed to dex 12, will have an extra +4 to reflex saves, +4 to Initiative, and +4 to AC. Notice that those benefits are substantially larger than having the Imp. Initiative (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-initiative-combat---final), Dodge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dodge-combat---final), and Lightning Reflexes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/lightning-reflexes---final) feats? Looking at it that way, you are saving feats by grabbing Dervish Dance.


Anyways, seconding a Dex-based Magus build. Good straight out of the box, and requires no multiclassing. Better yet, it won't outclass your teammates.

[Dude_Here]

What do you think of this build? I found it on another site. It's a Jade Phoenix Mage build.

3 human paragon, 2 wizard, 1 crusader, 1 spellsword, 4 Abjurant Champion.
Then, take your 5 JPM and get the no-prereq 2d6+initLvl inferno blade, Flashing Blade, and the Leaping Flame teleport moves. Then you can take the permanent 1d6 fire to melee attack stance, or the awesome Take 11 on any roll once per round stance!
From here, finish off with 1 more Abj Champ and 3 Sacred Exorcist (or whatever). This will buy you 9th level spellcasting at 20, and retain a 17BAB.

[Rubik]

3 human paragon, 2 wizard, 1 crusader, 1 spellsword, 4 Abjurant Champion.Take your first level of human paragon at first, then your second two levels after wizard. Otherwise you won't get spellcasting for your first three levels and they'll be wasted.

[Dude_Here]

Take your first level of human paragon at first, then your second two levels after wizard. Otherwise you won't get spellcasting for your first three levels and they'll be wasted

Thats what the build calls for paragon 1, wizard 1, etc. I was just wondering how it compares to this previous build suggestion:


Human Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Martial Wizard 2/ Human Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 4.

[eggs]

So it's Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 4 v. Crusader 1/JPM 4?

It depends on how strapped you are for feats, but Crusader maneuvers+JPM abilities are usually worth more. Especially considering Crusader's low-level survivability (typically a problem for gishes).

[Dude_Here]

Do most gish builds use the focused specialsit option and if so should I take transmutation or conjurer?

I planned on going into the Incantrix prc but I see I would have to give up another school in addition to the three I would have given up by taking focused specialist :smallannoyed: I guess illusions would be the obvious choice after enchantment, necromancy, and evocation but I'm not crazy about giving that up.

I wanted to fit Knowledge Devotion into the build since it has good synergy with JPM but I would have to give up Combat Reflexes or Combat Casting. I was wondering if Combat Casting is that important if I don't plan on going into the Abjurant Champion prc ?