Gish Help

[Harry]

Hello everyone I am going to play in a all wizard campaign in a few days The dm wants us to take 3 levels of any martial class what class would be best for a Gish? The martial classes can be in any order We are starting at lever 4 The other players are playing a arcane trickster and a noctumancer

[Bloodgruve]

You could go Swashbuckler, lvl 3 gets +int to damage and gives weapon finesse.

You could also look at Factotum if you wanna skill monkey, lvl 3 gives +int to all dex and str checks.


GL
Blood~

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For a standard gish, I'd go Human or Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm) 1/ Fighter* 1/ Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) 2/ Human or Elf Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 4. *A level of any class that gets full BAB and proficiency in all martial weapons and all types of armor would be a suitable replacement for Fighter. Put the Abjurant Champion levels a bit earlier if you want, but being able to use Cooperative Metamagic and Metamagic Effect to Persist all your buffs is definitely something you want to get asap. Take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) at 3rd level and you'll definitely have a high enough Spellcraft check to Persist your current highest level spells at any given level thanks to invested skill ranks.

If he wants you to take exactly three levels of a nonspellcasting martial class, then I don't really know what to tell you. Maybe Swashbuckler 3/ Wizard 5/ Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327), but there are better paths to take for that (Martial Wizard 6/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 5 comes to mind). Maybe go something like Warblade 1/ Wizard 4/ Warblade 1/ Jade Phoenix Mage, considering you'll be losing at least three levels of spellcasting with that.

It also somewhat depends on what level you're starting at, and what level you expect the game to play to. The more specific your request, the more specific and relevant the advice you get will be.

[Harry]

Thanks for the reply Factotum sounds nice I'll give that a try one more question what prcs go well with abjurant champion?

[Harry]

Yea it has to be exactly three levels we are starting at level 4 it has to be martial class 3 wizard 1 How about swift blade for 9 in to abjurant champion?

[Harry]

Sorry just re checked swift blade it looses too much spell casting any other ideas?

[herrhauptmann]

All three have their own advantages.
It depends on what you want to do at later levels. General standard for gish builds is bab 16+ and level 9 spells before you reach epic.
It's also important to choose the right spells. Something that allows a save is a bad idea. Blasting is generally a bad idea.
Stick to buffing yourself. If a buff can include your allies, great! But don't sweat it otherwise.
Scroll down to post 19 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132050)

I don't really know any good builds for duskblade. But it's a gish in a can, just fine for gish play from early levels. Some of the others need a few levels to really allow you to start playing as you'd wish.

Standard gishes are something along these lines:
Warblade:
Wizard 5/Warblade 1/Jade Pheonix Mage 2/Abjurant Champion 5/JPM +7
Could use spellsword 1 in there. But not at the expense of initiator levels and maneuvers or stances.


Fighter/wiz gishes:
Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5
12 levels of casting in 13 levels. Finish with 7 levels of EK or Knight Phantom gets you CL 18 and BAB 17
If you're [Good], dig out BoED for luminous armor. Otherwise, research an abjuration version of mage armor.


Sorcadin (I know you didn't ask for paladin)
Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist 8


I've got a sorcadin-lite build I was working on I referred to as the Sublime Arcanamach. Something like this:
Paladin variant Harmonious Knight 2 (need houserule)/ full bab anything 4 (could be duskblade)/ suel arcanamach 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champ 2/Sublime Chord 1/AC +3 (adding to sublime chord)/ sacred exorcist.
Despite being a charisma caster, it really needed a good int score to get into sublime chord. Able learner would help with the skill issue as well.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

What are the book sources allowed and what is your starting level/XP? A minor note, but it may help to ask if your DM is asking you to lose at least 3 caster levels or is he asking for another base class like fighter, barbarian or so on?

As Biffoniacus_Furiou mentioned, Wizard 6/Swiftblade 3+ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) is incredibly straightforward. The first build may be too much, due to the incredibly strong interaction between Item Familiar and Incantatrix.

Another option is Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist 8. You'll want at least the first level of Sacred Exorcist for the Turn Undead for various Divine feats, even though it doesn't let you use DMM without another feat.

EDIT: Derped the link.

Also, for the Jade Phoenix Mage, I prefer Crusader if only because not having to worry about spending an action on refreshing your maneuvers is useful to people with an abundance of swift actions.

EDIT 2: Also Swordsaged.

[Harry]

As I said we are starting at level 4 yes we have to use another base class I would use the sorcadin but since is a all wizard campaign I can't

[Thrice Dead Cat]

As I said we are starting at level 4 yes we have to use another base class I would use the sorcadin but since is a all wizard campaign I can't

Whoops, my apologies. I missed your response. In that case, I'm inclined to start with Human Pargon 1/Wizard 1/Human Paragon +2. Otherwise, why not go with a skill-based gish with Spellthief 3/Wizard 1 into Unseen Seer?

[herrhauptmann]

Harry, do you think you could edit the opening post with the information you've given us? It'll reduce people not noticing all the info given later.

Otherwise, why not go with a skill-based gish with Spellthief 3/Wizard 1 into Unseen Seer?

Factotum, Rogue, and SPellthief might not be 'martial enough.'

Has the DM said that all three martial levels have to be the same class?
Fighter 1/Ranger 2 (alternate combat style) will give better skills. Also, you'll have the entire ranger spell list open to you for wands and scrolls. Ditto for Fighter1/Paladin2.

[Elric VIII]

One thing that I always thought was cool is the High One Warrior Wizard substitution levels. You need at least 2 levels of Paladin to take them and it lets Wizard progress smiting, lets you wear armor, and combines your Mount and Familiar. It's not that powerful, as it makes you MAD and you need a mount to get the full benefit, but it is pretty cool.

You can find it in the CoV WE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a).

[Harry]

I can't my friend is playing a arcane trickster and the other is playing a noctumancer so we need a Gish

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Martial Classes* 3/ Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8. That gets 17th level spellcasting and +16 BAB at 20th level, and be sure to take Practiced Spellcaster.

Your three levels of martial classes can be pretty much anything that gets full BAB. Swashbuckler 3 has been suggested already, but it doesn't offer much IMO. I'd personally prefer Warblade 2/ Crusader 1 with Idiot Crusader shenanigans, especially infinite WRT later on via Martial Study. You could go with Duskblade get Arcane Channeling, plus you save yourself a prerequisite feat that way. Fighter 2 with Dungeoncrasher could also be useful, especially casting Melf's Unicorn Arrow (PH2).

Alternatively, if you don't want to play a good-aligned/exalted character you can go Dwarf, Martial Classes 3/ Martial Wizard 2/ Runesmith, then either take Runesmith 5 and then a caster-heavy build like Paragnostic Apostle 2/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil etc., or stop at Runesmith 2 and still finish Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8. In this case you should use a naturally psionic dwarf race or use Wild/Hidden Talent and get (Greater) Heavy Armor Optimization and Deflective Armor from RoS. Abjurant Champion's greatest benefit is with (Greater) Luminous Armor in BoED, but if you're not good/exalted you can't use that and may as well make the most of wearing armor.

[Harry]

I think I'll try Warblade 2/ crusader 1/ Martial Wizard 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8 thank you any idea on feats?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I think I'll try Warblade 2/ crusader 1/ Martial Wizard 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Sacred Exorcist 8 thank you any idea on feats?

Brief explanation of the Idiot Crusader trick: You can only ready a given maneuver once, you can only learn a given maneuver once. Your Warblade manevuers known are the four 1st level maneuvers from Stone Dragon and White Raven. At Crusader 1 you're only able to learn two maneuvers, both from Devoted Spirit. Those two maneuvers are granted, then refreshed and re-granted every single round. With Extra Granted Maneuver you can Martial Study one more maneuver, and have those three maneuvers refreshed and re-granted at the end of each of your turns.

Human, two flaws, no shenanigans: EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Jotunbrud (1), Combat Casting (3), Combat Reflexes (4), Practiced Spellcaster (6), Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades (9), Minor Shapeshift (12), Arcane Strike (15), Defensive Sweep (18). Spells should definitely include Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, etc. You can use Crusader's Strike or Vanguard Strike every round, and use it to make a trip attack so you make a touch attack, virtually guaranteeing that the maneuver will land. Note that Vanguard Strike should affect your attack roll to deal damage via Improved Trip, since 'ally' includes yourself unless stated otherwise.

Human, two flaws, shenanigans: Power Attack, Spell Focus: Transmutation, Ability Enhancer, Combat Casting (1), Extra Granted Maneuver (3), Combat Reflexes (4), Practiced Spellcaster (6), Martial Study: White Raven Tactics (9), Minor Shapeshift (12), Arcane Strike (15), Defensive Sweep (18). At level 9, you can literally take an infinite number of turns during the first round of combat.